World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Is this a possible COVID endgame?
Yes. [1] Antivirals to stop transmission.
[2] Sterilizing vaccines that kill the virus in host and prevent transmission.
No transmission, no Marek's scenario.
Graeme wrote: "Yes.
[1] Antivirals to stop transmission.
[2] Sterilizing vaccines that kill the virus in host and prevent transmission.
No transmission, no Marek's scenario."
Every potential cloud has a silver lining :)
[1] Antivirals to stop transmission.
[2] Sterilizing vaccines that kill the virus in host and prevent transmission.
No transmission, no Marek's scenario."
Every potential cloud has a silver lining :)
Beau wrote: "Thanks for the science info, Ian - much appreciated. But careful with that misinformation because covid has nowhere near 2% lethality. That would turn it from a moderate flu-like virus into a very ..."Beau, the 2% is the figure from the worldometer, obtained by dividing total deaths by total cases and multiplying by 100. It is NOT a moderate flu-like virus. It is serious, especially as the patient ages. Ask a medical person who has to treat it whether it is serious. The opinion of someone involved is better than that of someone shouting slogans from the sidelines.
The COVID vaccine is approved for children 5-11. Now we may see the end of this coming.
Papaphilly wrote: "The COVID vaccine is approved for children 5-11. Now we may see the end of this coming."We will still have the issue on unvaccinated whether by choice or circumstance -e.g. travel cannot return to normal until cases are down globally and much of developed world is unvaccinated. Likelihood of getting vaccinated fast has also declined as developed world uses vaccines on children and boosters
Papaphilly wrote: "The COVID vaccine is approved for children 5-11. Now we may see the end of this coming."Our authorities expect low turnout from parents, even though most of them are vaccinated.
Every child vaccinated is one less that can spread this disease.
Papaphilly wrote: "Every child vaccinated is one less that can spread this disease."
One big problem with that. The vaccines don't prevent transmission.
One big problem with that. The vaccines don't prevent transmission.
Nik wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "The COVID vaccine is approved for children 5-11. Now we may see the end of this coming."
Our authorities expect low turnout from parents, even though most of them are vaccinated."
If you listened to the UK media, you'd presume that almost all of us are fully vaccinated. In fact, almost 1/3 of us aren't.
What's more, amongst people I know, there appears to be very little appetite for taking the booster shot, so I'm going to make a prediction - by the end of this year, the fully vaccinated will be in a minority. Be interesting to see how this affects the case for vaccine passports.
Our authorities expect low turnout from parents, even though most of them are vaccinated."
If you listened to the UK media, you'd presume that almost all of us are fully vaccinated. In fact, almost 1/3 of us aren't.
What's more, amongst people I know, there appears to be very little appetite for taking the booster shot, so I'm going to make a prediction - by the end of this year, the fully vaccinated will be in a minority. Be interesting to see how this affects the case for vaccine passports.
Beau, while vaccines do not prevent transmission, the evidence is they reduce the probability.The vaccine passports raise an interesting question in NZ. Ardern seems keen on introducing them and has a 90% vaccination rate to have them used, and it is unclear whether that total will be reached. Not sure what happens if it isn't.
Ian wrote: "Beau, while vaccines do not prevent transmission, the evidence is they reduce the probability.
The vaccine passports raise an interesting question in NZ. Ardern seems keen on introducing them and ..."
I agree, Ian. A momentary truce before my artillery opens fire.
The vaccine passports raise an interesting question in NZ. Ardern seems keen on introducing them and ..."
I agree, Ian. A momentary truce before my artillery opens fire.
Beau wrote: "Nik wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "The COVID vaccine is approved for children 5-11. Now we may see the end of this coming."Our authorities expect low turnout from parents, even though most of them ar..."
If you are right, then expect lots more deaths.
Beau wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Every child vaccinated is one less that can spread this disease."One big problem with that. The vaccines don't prevent transmission."
You keep on insisting on 100% perfection. Nothing is 100%. Those that will not get vaccinated are tempting the fates. It is not good to tempt the fates. Lots of Americans that were outspoken anti-vaxxers have died of COVID. That is the highest irony. They got what they wanted and now they are dead. Did they win?
Papaphilly wrote: "You keep on insisting on 100% perfection. Nothing is 100%."You're both after perfection. Beau is requiring it of a pharmaceutical. You are demanding it of people. You'll both be disappointed.
J. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "You keep on insisting on 100% perfection. Nothing is 100%."You're both after perfection. Beau is requiring it of a pharmaceutical. You are demanding it of people. You'll both b..."
No what I am doing is insisting people do the right thing. I do not expect them to do the right thing because I know they won't. That was why lock downs failed. I wrote 18 months ago it was bound to fail. I realized it when the Governor of Wisconsin lost her court case and the public was shoulder to shoulder in the bars the next night. This is my reaction to those acting foolish. It is not that I do not understand, it is the fact those that will not get the shot also insist they get to go out in public unprotected. That is not just foolish, but it is dangerous.
I do not understand the insistence of 100% perfection when no vaccine has ever met it and the insanity of always having a moving target so they never have to take the shot. As I have said, I respect for those that left their job over their values. They put their money where their mouth is. At the same time, I think they are being foolish.
The one area I do understand that one may not need the shot is those that had COVID. They may be better protected and I have not seen good evidence or reasoning of being forced to get the shot, but there is no harm in getting the shot and updating the protection to the newest strains.
What I will say is that I am insisting that those that do not get the shot (except for medical reasons) do not get an easy time of it.
As you may have forgotten, I have been involved with this from the very start. I am exhausted and badly stressed. I pretty much fed up with the reticence of not getting the shot. I am totally done with the conspiracy theories that are not happening. I have had friends and coworkers die and more than a few that survived and will never be normal again. That part does not get talked about and it is happening. The lung damage and the inability to live a normal life again. I am not sure which is worse, killing you or leaving you and invalid the rest of your life.
What I saw has shaken me to the very core. This thing is no joke and it is not just a flu and I do not care if only 1 or 2% die. Which friend and family member do you want to die? Which child?
We are still averaging 2000 deaths a day. It is hitting all the spots not highly vaccinated hardest.
https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/new-...
I'm not after perfection. I just want you all to recognise that with the vaccines' current levels of imperfection, vaccine passports are not only illiberal but completely pointless.
On the other side of the coin, if vaccines were closer to perfection then they would still be illiberal and pointless because those seeking protection would have it.
On the other side of the coin, if vaccines were closer to perfection then they would still be illiberal and pointless because those seeking protection would have it.
Respect to you for your work, Papaphilly, but you have been focused on the hard end of covid. That is not the norm because to the overwhelming majority of people, covid is an irrelevance.
Government policy needs to acknowledge this, not out of lack of compassion to the small minority, but out of recognition that their policies to supposedly save that small minority have extremely harmful consequences on a far greater number of people.
Government policy needs to acknowledge this, not out of lack of compassion to the small minority, but out of recognition that their policies to supposedly save that small minority have extremely harmful consequences on a far greater number of people.
Beau, those who work at the sharp end should not be considered a small minority because what they do affects everybody who contracts the virus. Their influence therefore affects the whole community. We should not throw all our rubbish wherever we like on the basis that someone will eventually clean it up. On the same grounds, we should not do what we can to spread and nourish the virus on the basis that there are people who will try and save the victims. In both cases, our proper approach should be to try and remove the problem and let those at the sharp end do something other than cleaning up inconsiderate messes.
Sorry, Ian, complete misunderstanding. When I refer to the small minority, I'm referring to people who have been hospitalised by covid compared to those who have just suffered mild or no symptoms. I'm most certainly not referring to medical professionals.
And before you claim that the number of dead should not be classified as a small minority, consider the far greater number of people who have died and will continue to die because of our governments' draconian covid policies.
Btw, have you hacked into goodreads and nobbled my links? ;)
And before you claim that the number of dead should not be classified as a small minority, consider the far greater number of people who have died and will continue to die because of our governments' draconian covid policies.
Btw, have you hacked into goodreads and nobbled my links? ;)
Beau, I don't hack nor do I nobble. I have made my case to Nik. Have you? If so, your rules - we shut up and let the others decide.
Ian wrote: "Beau, I don't hack nor do I nobble. I have made my case to Nik. Have you? If so, your rules - we shut up and let the others decide."The thread is up. You have a two days long opportunity to react in one concise shot to the statement of the other, which you can use or waive, and then we'll have a round of questions from members for you to answer, and then - voting, commencing next weekend...
I want to read both sides, but will not vote. I am biased and freely admit it. However, I am interested non-the-less.
Beau wrote: "Respect to you for your work, Papaphilly, but you have been focused on the hard end of covid. That is not the norm because to the overwhelming majority of people, covid is an irrelevance. Governm..."
It is the fact you find this pointless that I find so scary.
Papaphilly wrote: "I want to read both sides, but will not vote. I am biased and freely admit it. However, I am interested non-the-less."There might be value in a poll question about which debater did a better job stating their case.
Papaphilly, I don't find any of it pointless. There's a big difference between you and a government. You work to save people who are dying of covid and you value every one of those lives. Rightly so.
A government has to balance those lives against the lives they will be ending or destroying by implementing lockdowns and other measures. They are concerned with the greater good, not individual people.
I believe that they've got the balance wrong and they've done and are doing more harm than good with their restrictions. You'll see where I'm coming from when you've read my case on the corona debate thread.
A government has to balance those lives against the lives they will be ending or destroying by implementing lockdowns and other measures. They are concerned with the greater good, not individual people.
I believe that they've got the balance wrong and they've done and are doing more harm than good with their restrictions. You'll see where I'm coming from when you've read my case on the corona debate thread.
Beau wrote: "Sorry, Ian, complete misunderstanding. When I refer to the small minority, I'm referring to people who have been hospitalised by covid compared to those who have just suffered mild or no symptoms. ..."Half the battle in online debate is agreeing the definitions of words and terms.
It's a key step, and one worth noting for us all. It's easy to assume that everyone is clear about what we mean when we write something down, however - it's not always the case.
Graeme wrote: "Half the battle in online debate is agreeing the definitions of words and terms.
It's a key step, and one worth noting for us all. It's easy to assume that everyone is clear about what we mean when we write something down, however - it's not always the case."
You're right, Graeme. It's a lesson for us all.
However, on this occasion, I think Ian was being mischievous by trying to paint me to the voters as a callous, selfish person, so it's time to set the record straight.
So far, I've tried to keep The Great Corona Debate purely on topic, and never let it get personal, but as Ian has now broken the rules of engagement, I feel duty bound to show the group some newspaper headlines, which were sent to me earlier by an anonymous source:
The Liberal Truth: Ian Caught Mocking Mask Wearers on Trip to The Zoo
Taller Stories Online: Ian, His Voters and The Missing $500k of Public Money
Uncorroborated News Wires: Exclusive Interview with Ian: ‘Why I Regret Taking the Covid Vaccine’
The Sun and Stars: Beau Praised for His Tireless Charity Work
Ian, please stay on topic and steer clear of character smears or it'll get worse for you ;)
It's a key step, and one worth noting for us all. It's easy to assume that everyone is clear about what we mean when we write something down, however - it's not always the case."
You're right, Graeme. It's a lesson for us all.
However, on this occasion, I think Ian was being mischievous by trying to paint me to the voters as a callous, selfish person, so it's time to set the record straight.
So far, I've tried to keep The Great Corona Debate purely on topic, and never let it get personal, but as Ian has now broken the rules of engagement, I feel duty bound to show the group some newspaper headlines, which were sent to me earlier by an anonymous source:
The Liberal Truth: Ian Caught Mocking Mask Wearers on Trip to The Zoo
Taller Stories Online: Ian, His Voters and The Missing $500k of Public Money
Uncorroborated News Wires: Exclusive Interview with Ian: ‘Why I Regret Taking the Covid Vaccine’
The Sun and Stars: Beau Praised for His Tireless Charity Work
Ian, please stay on topic and steer clear of character smears or it'll get worse for you ;)
Beau wrote: "So far, I've tried to keep The Great Corona Debate purely on topic, and never let it get personal, but as Ian has now broken the rules of engagement,..."I've noticed nothing of a sort on Ian's part....
Humorous, as it as, please, keep the competition honorable without personal remarks. No nostalgia for Hillary - Donald showdown :)
To be clear, the info in Message 41 was to inform you guys about why some in the U.S. refuse vaccines. Personally, I've had two shots and a booster. This was a decision based on protecting my parents and on the number of deaths of people who haven't been vaccinated. Common sense.
J. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "I want to read both sides, but will not vote. I am biased and freely admit it. However, I am interested non-the-less."There might be value in a poll question about which debate..."
I totally agree. The last thing I am trying to state is this exercise is not valuable. I am pointing out my bias and I do not think it will be helpful in this particular case.
Nik wrote: "Beau wrote: "So far, I've tried to keep The Great Corona Debate purely on topic, and never let it get personal, but as Ian has now broken the rules of engagement,..."I've noticed nothing of a sor..."
In all fairness to Beau, that was pretty humorous.
Scout wrote: "To be clear, the info in Message 41 was to inform you guys about why some in the U.S. refuse vaccines. Personally, I've had two shots and a booster. This was a decision based on protecting my paren..."Jut so you know, as much literature I have read, I have not found a super compelling reason to force a COVID survivor to ge the shot. My suggestion is to have them get the blood test to see their immunity and go from there. if it is lagging then get the shot, if it is not, then not. BTW, if anyone can show me something that I have missed to have this group get the shot, please send the link.
Just heard something I didn’t know – apparently, there are a lot of children who take the flu vaccine and a doctor has just been on TV encouraging all children to do the same.
I remember Graeme alerting us a while back to how the WHO had changed its definition of herd immunity from being achieved through naturally-acquired immunity or vaccines to only mentioning vaccines. Were they pre-empting something?
Could Big Pharma be playing a long-game of attempting to rid the human race of naturally-acquired immunity by making us completely reliant on vaccinations? Is this why there’s such a big push to target youngsters with covid and flu vaccinations, neither of which they need?
100 years from now, will anyone even be aware of the concept of naturally-acquired immunity or will the accepted ‘truth’ be that it can only be acquired through vaccines?
I remember Graeme alerting us a while back to how the WHO had changed its definition of herd immunity from being achieved through naturally-acquired immunity or vaccines to only mentioning vaccines. Were they pre-empting something?
Could Big Pharma be playing a long-game of attempting to rid the human race of naturally-acquired immunity by making us completely reliant on vaccinations? Is this why there’s such a big push to target youngsters with covid and flu vaccinations, neither of which they need?
100 years from now, will anyone even be aware of the concept of naturally-acquired immunity or will the accepted ‘truth’ be that it can only be acquired through vaccines?
Beau wrote: "Just heard something I didn’t know – apparently, there are a lot of children who take the flu vaccine and a doctor has just been on TV encouraging all children to do the same.I remember Graeme al..."
Can you give me a reasonable reason to not get a flu shot? And I mean not a conspiracy reason? I do not dispute one method is getting sick and going through the flu or any other sickness. However, if the flu shot pretty much knocks out the flu or at least lessens its intensity, why make someone go through it?
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/20...
This says it all for me.
Papaphilly, I’m afraid my reason for not taking the flu vaccine isn’t very scientific but I’ve attempted to make a mathematical equation out of it anyway:
Time and effort required to book and attend appointment + slight squeamishness of needles + very slight unease of injecting the flu into me > my concern over catching flu.
I don’t think I’ve ever discussed my flu vaccine status with friends and family but, as far as I’m aware, the only person I know to have taken one is my nan. Although she’d never suffered badly with flu, when she got into her 70s, she took the vaccine on her doctor’s advice. Needless to say, straight afterwards she experienced the worst case of flu she’d ever known. She didn’t take the vaccine again. Last year, she tested positive for covid. In the end she was fine and is now 100 and living in a care home. Not as active as she once was, but seemed in good spirits when I visited her about a month ago.
By the way, just so you know I’m not completely dismissive of covid, my uncle asked the care home staff if they’d lost more residents to covid than they would in a typical flu season. They confirmed they had.
On the children taking flu vaccines question, I presume the range of 37 – 171 US deaths per annum mentioned in the link is out of the 10s of millions (a 100m?) of children in the US? I understand why a child with a rare underlying condition might take it but for the average child to take a flu vaccine is a bit like me or you dressing up in full PPE to fry a steak. Or maybe like not cooking the steak in case the house burns down. It falls on the wrong side of a common-sense risk assessment.
Time and effort required to book and attend appointment + slight squeamishness of needles + very slight unease of injecting the flu into me > my concern over catching flu.
I don’t think I’ve ever discussed my flu vaccine status with friends and family but, as far as I’m aware, the only person I know to have taken one is my nan. Although she’d never suffered badly with flu, when she got into her 70s, she took the vaccine on her doctor’s advice. Needless to say, straight afterwards she experienced the worst case of flu she’d ever known. She didn’t take the vaccine again. Last year, she tested positive for covid. In the end she was fine and is now 100 and living in a care home. Not as active as she once was, but seemed in good spirits when I visited her about a month ago.
By the way, just so you know I’m not completely dismissive of covid, my uncle asked the care home staff if they’d lost more residents to covid than they would in a typical flu season. They confirmed they had.
On the children taking flu vaccines question, I presume the range of 37 – 171 US deaths per annum mentioned in the link is out of the 10s of millions (a 100m?) of children in the US? I understand why a child with a rare underlying condition might take it but for the average child to take a flu vaccine is a bit like me or you dressing up in full PPE to fry a steak. Or maybe like not cooking the steak in case the house burns down. It falls on the wrong side of a common-sense risk assessment.
An evidence that SARS-Cov-2/COVID-19 spike protein (SP) damages hematopoietic stem/progenitor cells in the mechanism of pyroptosis in Nlrp3 inflammasome-dependent mannerhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s4137...
Quick and dirty: They showed that the Spike Protein itself causes damage to certain stem cells, resulting in cell death.
The mRNA vaccines specifically cause production of the Spike Protein. I'm curious what the half-life of said protein is in the body.
Can't answer the question but Ian will be pleased that you're citing Nature. He's got shares in them.
J. wrote: "An evidence that SARS-Cov-2/COVID-19 spike protein (SP) damages hematopoietic stem/progenitor cells in the mechanism of pyroptosis in Nlrp3 inflammasome-dependent mannerhttps://www.nature.com/arti..."
That's problematic.
Beau wrote: "Papaphilly, I’m afraid my reason for not taking the flu vaccine isn’t very scientific but I’ve attempted to make a mathematical equation out of it anyway:Time and effort required to book and atte..."
How many children is too many to lose? Do you love your Gran? She worth the shot? Who's Gran is not? Whose children is not worth saving?
Stay safe, Papaphilly. Remember, always grill steak.
Graeme, you started this thread. Where do you believe this is all going? What is your opinion?
Do you now think that governments actions have been down to incompetence, malicious intent, or is it still too early to say?
Do you think vaccine passports are simply a route to wider digital passports or a health precaution?
Do you think the Marek's disease scenario will play out? Will spike protein vaccines be proven safe? Will boosters be required for the term of a person's natural life or do you envisage a more permanent one-off solution being developed?
Do you think that lockdowns will now be used as a regular governmental tool for a variety of reasons?
Do you now think that governments actions have been down to incompetence, malicious intent, or is it still too early to say?
Do you think vaccine passports are simply a route to wider digital passports or a health precaution?
Do you think the Marek's disease scenario will play out? Will spike protein vaccines be proven safe? Will boosters be required for the term of a person's natural life or do you envisage a more permanent one-off solution being developed?
Do you think that lockdowns will now be used as a regular governmental tool for a variety of reasons?
Beau wrote: "Do you now think that governments actions have been down to incompetence, malicious intent, or is it still too early to say? ..."TBD.
Beau wrote: "Do you think vaccine passports are simply a route to wider digital passports or a health precaution? ..."TBD.
Beau wrote: "Do you think the Marek's disease scenario will play out? Will spike protein vaccines be proven safe? Will boosters be required for the term of a person's natural life or do you envisage a more permanent one-off solution being developed? ..."TBD.
Beau wrote: "Do you think that lockdowns will now be used as a regular governmental tool for a variety of reasons?..."TBD.
Good to keep an open mind, Graeme, but don't be late to the party :)
Your questions deserve worthy answers.
Reading back I think we have lost point of lockdowns pre-vaccines. In most cases this was to stop hospitals being overwhelmed with sick as we saw in Northern Italy and more recently in India. The UK built emergency hospitals (which thankfully mostly remained unused)NHS performance though (Lets all clap again) has declined significantly even though number in hospital with COVID and or Flu is less than it was before vaccinations (9,000 now compared to 40,000 at peak). We have also lost thousands of vulnerable already and most patients are not co-morbidity requiring high ICU requirement and old
Thus pressure on NHS should be much less than November 2020 yet performance has gone down - reports on ambulance waiting times demonstrates it i.e. paramedics stuck waiting for hospitals to admit. Why aren't hospitals admitting? Is this PPE measures for all patients because NHS has not adopted to vaccinated population or some other reason?
Cheers G"
I've just read it again, Graeme. If the virus reached this level of severity, the only way out of the vicious circle I could see is that the human race would have to isolate all newly born babies, with no adult to care for them, in the hope that they survive and continue our species without the virus. At the same time, all other humans would have to effectively commit suicide by ceasing to take the vaccines. Not a very pleasant scenario.
Can you see any other way out of it?