"Gideon the Ninth" - Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[raven]

That’s what I meant by the “figurative” part — the phrase is assumed to be metaphorical in “we are a team acting as one,” then we later learn there’s another layer to it. I believe at the point they are reciting the vow, they don’t know the other aspect, so they are just confirming their oath to act together. For me at the time, it meant more they were equals rather than Gideon was at Harrow’s command.

[Ryan]

Ah, right. "End" meaning "goal" in this case. I had my mind stuck on death (for obvious reasons) so I missed that.

[raven]

Ryan wrote: "Ah, right. "End" meaning "goal" in this case. I had my mind stuck on death (for obvious reasons) so I missed that."

Yes, precisely! Would have clarified but thought it obvious, haha.

[Joon]

Ryan wrote: "Hmm, I missed the part where cavaliers are ceremonial. That explains things. The end material is also illuminating.

Here are some other questions I had as I read:

Gideon discovered a paper with h..."

1. The "one flesh, one end" thing is one of those phrases we're meant to take metaphorically at first (i.e. cavalier and adept functioning "as one") but then becomes literal in the process of becoming a lyctor.

2. The tooth thing is one of the several unanswered questions. I had forgotten all about it because like a lot of mysteries in this book, it was brought up and then never mentioned again.

3. "Ch 35: "...but there was also deep tragedy in the flawed beams holding up their lives. An eight-year-old writing love letters to a terminally ill teenager. A girl falling in love with the beautiful stiff she'd been conceived solely to look after." Who do these sentences refer to?"

I don't think these two refer to the same pairing. The first one is clearly Palamedes and Dulcinea. The second pairing I'd assumed at the time to refer to Gideon and Harrow but I have to think back on some of the other dynamics. Regardless, it for sure doesn't refer to Palamedes and Dulcinea.

EDIT: Yeah as Kaa points out below, second sentence is Harrow and the ice-cube girl, who, like several other mysteries in the book, I had forgotten about because it's more or less ignored after it's introduced.


4. Harrow was just a stronger Lyctor, even brand new. She couldn't defeat Cytheria at first because even a weak/dying Lyctor (which she was) was stronger than a strong regular Harrow, but probably at that point even a fledgling Lyctor was strong enough to defeat Cytheria.

[Kaa]

Palamedes and Dulcinea: I think Palamedes must be closer to 18 than 8 at the time of the book, so Dulcinea is probably now in her late 20s. ETA: I think the ages may be specified in the extra material, but I can't recall for sure and have already returned the ebook to the library.

The second sentence in ch 35 I think refers to Harrow and the girl in the Locked Tomb, although it felt to me like Gideon was jumping to conclusions about Harrow's feelings there.

[Beth]

Seeing these sentences I have no recollection of after a few months--at least one of whose significance becomes much more apparent in the second book--makes me want to read these again, back to back. (and I just finished reading Harrow a few days ago!) Maybe later this year, when Alecto is closer to coming out.

[Ryan]

Makes sense about Harrow and the Locked Tomb, I had forgotten about that. Another mystery hinted at but given no real context for. I kind of hate that, though I'm sure the sequels will explain it.

I thought Dulcinea was quite old at Canaan, like 70's or older and on her deathbed, and I got the impression that Palamedes was a youngish man, or at least not old. That would make the age gap much larger than the sentence allows for. Are these assumptions mistaken? Does it indicate their ages anywhere in the book I may have missed?

[Kaa]

I'm not sure it's ever said specifically in the story, but I don't think Dulcinea is any older than early 30s. It's mentioned at least in the extras that she was expected to die very young and has held on for longer than anyone thought. Per her Fandom Wiki, she is 27, but I'm not sure exactly where that number came from.

[Joon]

I think late 20's sounds about right for Dulcinea. I believe she said early she wasn't expected to live past her mid-late 20's or so and she was already at or slightly past that age. And I did get the impression later in the story that she was slightly older than I'd originally assumed.

[raven]

Beth wrote: "... want to read these again, back to back. (and I just finished reading Harrow a few days ago!) Maybe later this year, when Alecto is closer to coming out."

I finished Harrow a few weeks ago, but have the same idea. Whenever the release date for Alecto is announced, get ready to have it day one and set up a reading schedule to re-read both books such that I finish Harrow right as Alecto arrives.

[Bonnie]

Kayla wrote: "Am I the only one who kind of wished that Gideon got on the shuttle at the beginning?"

You are not!

[Kristenelle]

Did anyone understand how Ianthe became a lyctor without getting any keys? I almost done with a reread of this book and I'm still fuzzy on how she managed that.

[raven]

I’m not sure if this is speculation or memory now, but I think she analyzed each of the problems and figured out their solutions without actually doing them, then analyzed the relevant parts of the solutions to come up with the overall theory?

[Kaa]

Jon, that's my recollection as well. I was going to add that the keys themselves I think were not important, it was just that the tasks to get them would teach the necromancers the skills they needed to consume their cavalier and become a Lyctor.

[Kristenelle]

Jon wrote: "I’m not sure if this is speculation or memory now, but I think she analyzed each of the problems and figured out their solutions without actually doing them, then analyzed the relevant parts of the..."

Ah, ok. That is kind of what I was figuring...but I'm still not sure how she got in the rooms in the first place to study the theories?

I was trying to describe this book to my husband last night and realizing that there are a lot of details that you kind of gloss over when reading this book. Like, I'm already forgetting the details of Gideon's arrival to the Ninth. She fell off a space elevator or something? I don't remember, haha. It is one of those small things that I didn't put much weight on when I was reading that I wish I remembered now.

[Joon]

Yeah my impression (weeks later, albeit) is that Ianthe learned all she needed to know from the tests themselves, and just didn't need to enter the rooms to read the "solution", so to speak.

Like, Harrow figured out how to pass that first test, but it wasn't until she entered the locked room that she understood why what she did worked or what it meant. I think Ianthe didn't need that explanation and just put the pieces together herself.

The other thing is that I remember briefly wondering if Ianthe's method of becoming a Lyctor was somehow mildly corrupted by this. Like maybe you can technically become a Lyctor without reading the junk in the locked rooms, but that you're missing something because of it.

As for how exactly Gideon arrived on the Ninth....I'm not convinced the story really explained it or even boiled it down beyond "one day baby Gideon arrived."

[Bonnie]

Maybe her mom escaped from the prison (apparently the Ninth Planet's only source of income?) and fell down the drill shaft, and then the people found her dead in her spacesuit but Gideon was still alive, or they pulled Gideon out of her womb post-mortem...
Something like that

[raven]

To be clear, I think she got all her info from the test rooms themselves, which didn’t need a key, and not the bonus rooms that explained the theories, so she didn’t need the keys/access. It’s one of the weak points I think of the plot.

[raven]

Joon wrote: "As for how exactly Gideon arrived on the Ninth....I'm not convinced the story really explained it or even boiled it down beyond "one day baby Gideon arrived.""

Yeah, Gideon the Ninth doesn’t explain this, (view spoiler)[but later... (hide spoiler)] (Spoiler less a spoiler than a two word tease, but being safe.)

[Paul]

Apologies for "resurrecting" the thread about this book, but I only finished it yesterday.

I enjoyed the book but some parts were quite confusing. I was stumped confusing a lot of the different players in the castle -- annoyingly at the end of the book was a list of all the people which would have greatly helped. It was also confusing who had the keys and even whether they needed to complete the tasks to progress to the next task. I didn't realise that they could do the tests without the key until I read it here.

The ending with Gideon was shocking. I liked her. But with hindsight, the "joining" of Gideon and Harrow was inevitable, everything was pointing to it but even the characters didn't know this, so that was well played by the author.

Like someone else in this thread, I kept reading the name Harrowhawk.

I'll certainly read the next book in the series

[Joon]

The whole "key" thing was a bit overplayed. It was definitely confusing keeping track of who had what, but in the end it actually didn't matter. The keys were almost a red herring, for the characters as much as for us. It was enough to know there were keys, and what their purpose was, in order to land the significance of Ianthe not even using them to achieve Lyctor status.

But yes, ultimately the process as intended was: Take the test > Pass the Test > Get the Key > Learn the lesson (aka "Get the Answer"). Seems backwards, but that's pretty much how it worked. And Ianthe kind of skipped all of those just by extrapolating everything from the test itself.

[raven]

Joon wrote: "But yes, ultimately the process as intended was: Take the test > Pass the Test > Get the Key > Learn the lesson (aka "Get the Answer")."

I saw it closer as Take the Test > (Get the Basic Answer to) Pass the Test > Get the Key > Extend the Basic Answer to a Greater Theory, if that helps?

[Tria]

I didn't comment on this thread before, I've not really been on GR a lot lately.

I should give a bit of background before I talk about this, so: I am autistic, genderqueer (assigned female at birth), and have adolescent-onset bipolar disorder (with psychosis) and PTSD, grew up in a half-abusive household with one sibling, and I'm 35. That all informs my perspective on this book more than I thought before I considered it, so...

Honestly, I loved this book. I've now read it three times.

It's clear to me, at least, that Harrowhark spends much of her life externalising her own self-hatred and taking it out on Gideon largely because her duties and responsibilities prevent her from taking it out on herself without the entire House falling down, which she has been essentially indoctrinated (in her most critical formative years) never to allow to happen, and because Gideon is the only other person on the entire planet anywhere near her age (at the start of GT9 they are 17 and 18 respectively), and Harrow wants her attention even if it's in the form of hate, even though she knows that it's her fault and she's making Gideon hate her as a way to punish *herself*.

Honestly, Harrow reminds me very much of myself when I was her age. Autistic, emotionally neglected, damaged and abused - because whether you realise it or not, she, too, was a victim of abuse, and it has seriously warped her psyche - and trying not to let anybody see any of it because then her entire world will fall down.

In my case, my younger sibling would have been taken into "care" and I might never have seen her again, and I would have been left with our abusive parent because by then I was considered old enough to fend for myself. In Harrow's case, she would in her own eyes have failed her charge and let the Ninth either fail or be absorbed by another House, and both Priamhark and Pelleamena drummed into child Harrow that this could never, ever be allowed to happen. She knows what she is, how she was created. Can you even imagine being told that you only exist because two hundred children were murdered to create you? Harrowhark is totally right when she says that her existence is a war crime. Her whole life is lived in the face of that.

It doesn't excuse the way she treated Gideon, not a bit, but when she finally opens up a bit and explains all this stuff to Gideon, Gideon understands where she's coming from, and finds it in her own heart to forgive her. And I can see that.

The difference between us mentally is that I internalised a lot of my damage and self-harmed, where she externalised it and inflicted it on the only person around she felt safe to target like that, because nobody would stop her and, as the only person actually *speaking* in authority for her whole House, she dared not undermine her own authority in the eyes of the community (by letting them see how broken a child she truly was) because that would lead to the downfall of the Ninth, just as inexorably as alliance would have done. For me, I was the only one safe to target.

Whether what she's done is forgivable or not, from a "normal" perspective, is in question. Is it forgivable from a perspective like Gideon's, when she's halfway to as damaged as Harrow herself? Apparently it is. Is it the place of anybody other than the person doing the forgiving to decide whether it's worth it? Because if this had been real life, I'd have said not.

They built what they could out of what they had. As for the idea of Gideon's taking refuge in or with anyone else on the First, she, too, has been taught to keep the Ninth's secrets to the Ninth. Even if they're not all quite what she thought they were.

I hope you don't mind if I pause this analysis at this point rather than going on to my view about the other things that have been discussed in the thread, but my hands and wrists are hurting, so I need a good long break now. If you read all this, I thank you.

[Ryan]

I don't have a lot to say in response, but thank you for sharing. It's nice to hear someone can verify Harrow's actions/feelings, though I'm sorry it came through such personal problems. My own life has been easy in comparison to yours or Harrow's (or Gideon's), so I couldn't readily empathize with them.

[Kristenelle]

Tria wrote: "I didn't comment on this thread before, I've not really been on GR a lot lately.

I should give a bit of background before I talk about this, so: I am autistic, genderqueer (assigned female at bir..."

Wow, this is such a great analysis. Thank you!

[Kristenelle]

Joon wrote: "The whole "key" thing was a bit overplayed. It was definitely confusing keeping track of who had what, but in the end it actually didn't matter. The keys were almost a red herring, for the characte..."

Ah, that makes sense. I was definitely under the impression that every door in Canaan House was locked and they couldn't even start the first test without a key.

[Joon]

Kristenelle wrote: "Joon wrote: "The whole "key" thing was a bit overplayed. It was definitely confusing keeping track of who had what, but in the end it actually didn't matter. The keys were almost a red herring, for..."

The door to the whole testing facility was locked, but there were multiple keys for that, and you more or less got it just by asking Teacher for it. Once you had that, you could access the whole facility (i.e. all the tests).

[Kristin B.]

Tria wrote: "I didn't comment on this thread before, I've not really been on GR a lot lately.

I should give a bit of background before I talk about this, so: I am autistic, genderqueer (assigned female at bir..."

Thank you for sharing. Difficult subject matter eloquently put.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Do appreciate the share, and the reminder that seeing ourselves in books is a thing of wonder and growth, no matter the format of the book.

[Mindy]

Found an interesting review of Gideon about the role of religion in the story:

https://www.tor.com/2020/08/19/gideon...