SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"Gideon the Ninth" - Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
Mod
For Gideon, I didn't care enough to read anything but the story.
The author, to me, probably: "Hey Joon, I know you're having a hard time connecting with these characters, finding someone to like and root for, so I'll give you a break. Here, take these characters over here. They're pretty nice, right? Good, friendly people, committed to each other, the kind you wouldn't mind reading about for the rest of the story! WELL SUCK IT BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE DEAD!Oh, dear, I'm sorry Joon. I feel like that took you out of the story a bit. Let me make it up to you. How about these other two characters, they're pretty endearing, right? Kind of adorable in a way! Let us learn what their vulnerabilities are, their hopes and fears! Are they tugging at your heartstrings yet? They are? GOOD BECAUSE THEY'RE DEAD TOO I JUST KILLED THEM. KICK ROCKS JOON!"
Beth wrote: "Stross' blurb's more striking than most, for whatever reason. But I agree that as striking as it is, it's ignorable, and definitely think that it shouldn't guide or affect people's reading of the b..."I can only speak for myself, but the blurb stuck with me because it's so blunt and, after reading the book, also just plain wrong. I know those blurbs aren't always accurate and might give a slightly wrong idea of what to excpect, but rarely have I seen a blurb that is so massively NOT about what the book is actually about. It alsmost makes me not want to read anything by Charles Stross, although I have his Laundry Files series on my to-read list.
I'm by no means finished with the story. So, I'm just hopping into this "spoiler" section to ask a question. Am I the only one who kind of wished that Gideon got on the shuttle at the beginning? Falling for the trick seemed unnecessary. The story is intriguing, and the world building is really original. But, I kind of wish we started off with her putting cares to the wind, hopping on the shuttle, and not looking back. I think the main character could have held the story on her own journey into the unknown. Can you imagine this same universe being explored by Gideon on her own? I think that could have been really cool. (Just a random thought)
I'm at like 66% and one of my biggest frustrations with the book is that even after all this time, I feel like we don't really know Gideon. She just reacts. At this point in the story she has shown some emotion, opened up a bit, so to speak, but all we know about her is how she reacts to things. She doesn't even feel like the main character in the story with her name on the cover. She feels very much like a secondary character and for some reason we're stuck with only her point of view while much more important things are happening off-stage. So yeah, a story where she's on her own, having her own adventure, and doing things at her own pace, as opposed to just following someone around that she's supposed to hate and who's supposed to hate her, might have been fun.
At this point I'm left hoping there's something about her that we learn that explains all this. I'm legit considering the theory that she's some sort of necromantic construct brought to life, and I've based this solely on that piece of a note she found in that locked room (which says nothing whatsoever but implies MYSTERY), and the fact that she has no personality whatsoever.
It occurs to me that this would be a very different book for me had I read it before the second book came out. Because in all respects the book is setting Harrow up to look like the villain. And that's spoiled somewhat by knowing she's the star of the sequel. Either she's being framed, or she's actually doing the things but has an unimaginable but somehow altruistic motive.
(One thing I don't regret is knowing Gideon's fate. It's exactly the kind of thing I want to know beforehand because it's exactly the kind of thing that would infuriate me if it caught me by surprise.)
Mod
Great point.
Joon wrote: "She doesn't even feel like the main character in the story with her name on the cover. She feels very much like a secondary character and for some reason we're stuck with only her point of view"Maybe? That makes me think who you think the main character is then? Harrow, perhaps? Ok, but then (for me) I could make analogies this is like a Sherlock Holmes book, where Watson is the point of view but not the “main” character.
But I don’t even think Harrow is really the main character either, as she doens’t seem that much ahead of Gideon is some aspects; to me, it’s kind of the two of them alternate with each other and certain others of the cast (ahem, the sixth).
Kayla wrote: "Am I the only one who kind of wished that Gideon got on the shuttle at the beginning? Falling for the trick seemed unnecessary."Yeah, I’ve said similar things in this thread.
Jon wrote: "Joon wrote: "She doesn't even feel like the main character in the story with her name on the cover. She feels very much like a secondary character and for some reason we're stuck with only her poin..."That's the thing though. Sherlock isn't a bad comparison (I was thinking Big Lebowski myself), except that Watson knows Sherlock is the main character, so to speak, and was largely kept in the loop about the general goings-on, if not Sherlock's own particular state of mind at various points.
Gideon is in the dark about so much that's happening there. The necromancers and other houses are doing a LOT of stuff outside of her purvue (admittedly that changes in the last third or so of the book when she starts to get dragged into the central story.)
I think we don't know who the main character is because thus far Gideon doesn't know, because for the most part Gideon has no idea what's going on or what anything means (which is frustrating as a reader, obviously.)
So far it does sort of seem like there's Harrow and the Sixth and then there's everyone else. To this point they've kind of established themselves as the protagonists (though again, my acceptance of Harrow as a protagonist is based solely on the existence of the second book lol.) The problem is Harrow and Gideon spend too much of the book apart, and when they're together Harrow doesn't tell her anything.
EDIT: And ultimately this is where most of my remaining frustration with this book stems from: I'm at like 72% and Gideon still knows NOTHING and isn't perturbed enough about it. In fact it's that she doesn't really even try to learn. She seems content to just remain in the dark about everything. She hasn't really looked at that scrap of paper again, she just experienced a mild anxiety upon learning that Harrow probably saw it. She hasn't even thought about the shuttles being dumped in the ocean since seeing it happen.
Jon wrote: "Yeah, I’ve said similar things in this thread."Good to know. :)
And to Joon, I am glad you both mentioned Sherlock Homes. That sets the view of this book differently in my mind. I'll definitely finish it, and see what I think then.
It was kind of obvious to me that Gideon is kind of a stand-in for the reader, throw into the situation and not knowing what was going on. That element didn’t bother me much as Gideon was doing things, whether it was the mute swordplay with the other cavaliers or going to rescue Harrow, even if those actions didn’t really seem to be protagonist type actions, as Gideon’s general attitude entertained me a lot. Then eventually things started to make more sense and the actions more directed.
I guess, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the biggest fan of limited third-person pov for exactly this reason. I'm okay with that style pov if the character in question is at least making an effort to figure out what's going on, and seems engaged with the mystery, because that heightens my own engagement with the mystery.
Instead I'm left wanting to learn things that the pov character seemingly couldn't give less of a toss about. She seems to exist solely to spout off clever insults and sarcasm.
And I think I can say we all know someone like that in real life, and we do not necessarily love that person.
Never fails. I'll be reading a book, and its...fine. I have frustrations, but I haven't quit. And then, when I reach a point where my frustrations have just about boiled over, I put the book down and run off to the internet to vent about all my problems with the book.
Then I go back to the book, and almost immediately, everything changes, and there's all these revelations, and all the crap I was complaining about is undone, and I'm reminded yet again of how impatient I really am.
Whew. Ok, done. I'll try to put down my thoughts. Massive spoilers, obviously, so if you're one of those people who isn't done with the book yet but is still peeking into the Spoiler topic (like I was), well.
First, the obvious one: Gideon's sacrifice. Honestly, I have no issue with the fact she did it. They were boned (*giggle*). She was toast no matter what. So it was the sensible solution. But all that guff she said to Harrow as she was doing it....didn't feel right. The progression of their relationship over the course of the book did not lead to that in a credible way. May have just been pacing, but I feel like their reconciliation should have come sooner and given more time to solidify before that moment.
Overall, the horror movie feel where a group of characters are trapped in a haunted house and get picked off one by one should have been more interesting, but there were too many under-developed characters with far too many similar names, and like a lot of people I often got confused about who was who. I had to refer back to the cast of characters at the beginning more than once, which I NEVER do.
I don't know what my feelings are about the last 10-15% of the book, because a lot happened very quickly compared to the rest of the book. I know that's often the case with stories, and the pacing wasn't so much the problem at the end as it was in the rest of the story. Very slow start, fast end. Never doesn't feel rushed.
The out-of-nowhere villain who we'd never even heard of before isn't my favorite reveal. Could have been set up better. As it was we'd learned so little about Lyctors to that point that it was hard to feel anything at all about the revelation. Ianthe's reveal was a little more impactful, but again, she'd spent the entire book just....there. So innocuous that in hindsight it should have been obvious. But...now what? Like, what is she going forward? Is she a bad guy? A good guy? I know it'll be addressed going forward but it's still weird she was barely mentioned in the epilogue, only that she survived.
I'm disappointed more wasn't made of the laboratory, the building, the tests, the lessons learned therein, the rooms the keys unlocked, all that. A casualty of limited third person POV I guess, but it lost the ending revelations a fair bit of impact that I was only half-following what the necros were talking about (as, no doubt, was Gideon.) The mystery of the palace, or whatever it was, kept me going through most of the book, and it largely ended up meaning nothing.
Who the **** was the original Gideon? If that isn't answered in a future book I'll be annoyed.
Who was the frozen girl? Made her sound so important, and suggested she was the Emperor's nemesis, but who the heck is she?
And one thing I'd wondered through the entire story, from some of the characters' conversations about "going to the front line" and then at the end when E tells Harrow about all the "fighting".....WHO ARE THEY FIGHTING. This was maybe my biggest lasting frustration with the story is that at the end we still have virtually no concept of the universe outside these vague Houses with vague Purposes to support an Emperor we don't know. Now obviously (again) this one is going to be a main storyline going forward, but I still wish it had all been introduced better in this book.
Allison wrote: "Did anyone visualize the world? I saw it so clearly in my head. I mean I'm not sure I could have drawn you a precise map, but I had distinct impressions of the rooms, halls, ruins and each of the s..."Not even a little. First, I have no concept of what the Ninth House looked like. I legit just pictured a series of small halls carved into the black rock at the bottom of a deep pit in the ground of an otherwise barren planet. Picture the Grand Canyon but deeper, and smaller, and blacker.
For the First House, I think I overstated in my mind how decrepit and falling-apart it was, because it seemed more attention was given to those parts of the house that were in worse shape than some others. And from the passage about how different parts of the House were different ages (another thing which fascinated me but went nowhere), I took that even further and it wound up being this weird Frankenstein monster of a house with parts smashed together that didn't match, just sort of jutting out of an ocean that otherwise covers the entire rest of the planet for all any other square inch of it was ever discussed.
And finally I have no concept of the universe they inhabit. As I said elsewhere, I never really got a feel for how each House was supposed to (apparently) inhabit a separate planet. What order those planets were in (were they numbered 1-9 in order of their distance from the sun?) If the Ninth House occupies a planet on its own....what is the rest of the planet? Just barren? (Ditto First House, I guess.)
This was an interesting read for me. I don’t think I understood half of what was going on and I did have an issue of connecting with a lot of the characters. Also, not sure what to make of Harrow and Gideon’s relationship or about Harrow at the end. However, I enjoyed the dialogue, liked Gideon and think that the magic system is interesting if tricky for a Science Fiction newbie like me to fully understand. I liked the atmosphere and I’m glad that I’ve gotten myself into some kind of reading frenzy in order to finish this book. For me this is a 3.5 star but I rated this 4 stars on Goodreads.
I finally finished this book. Well, finally because it's the second time I've tried to read it. The first time I could not get into it at all. Apparently I just wasn't in the right headspace then because I read it in two days this time.I loved the world-building. There wasn't a lot of time spent on it but what was there was vivid. I kept having this impression of an ancient and decaying society built on the ruins of a post-apocalyptic Earth-like culture. Any pop-culture references fit as fragments of something that had otherwise been entirely forgotten. Maybe that was just my semi-conscious retcon though.
I had a very hard time keeping the huge cast of characters straight, especially since most of them were interchangeably referred to by house, first name, and last name. Eventually I gave up and made a list of names, houses, and whether they were necro or cavalier. It took a while to differentiate personalities too.
The magic was a little vague and I feel like it was all shoehorned into necromancy when some of it would've made more sense otherwise.
I did like that Gideon was presented like male characters are in a lot of fiction. This felt very much like a lit rpg to me and male characters can be very stereotypical in them. Gideon wasn't that bad but it turned the trope a bit. Her foul-mouthed snark and complete lack of respect for authority very entertaining. I did wonder where she learned those words and expressions though.
I wasn't too bothered by her getting distracted by every glimpse of bare skin or tight clothing. She grew up on world where everyone was either dead or wearing black robes at all times. She'd never encountered that kind of thing in real life before.
She made a good fish out of water character, having to stay silent, observing and experiencing all these new things and places. Almost learning to be "human" after growing up in such a repressive society. It gave her a real look at what life could be like away from her home world.
It seemed strange that Gideon had the slightest concept of what compassion even was given that she'd apparently never been shown any by anyone in her entire life. A child raised that way would be psychologically damaged and traumatized so badly that even empathy would be foreign to her. Granted, she didn't seem to recognize those emotions in herself very clearly, but still, she seemed very stable and reasonably healthy mentally for that upbringing.
For her to develop any kind of trust or friendship with any of the characters seems unnatural for someone who was tortured and abused all her life. I did not like the enemies to friends arc at all. It was way too easy for her to forgive and care for her abuser that way. The only way I can see any of it making sense is that she was so desperate for any kindness or affection that she latched on to whoever offered it. No matter how lonely she was, or how deeply connected she was to Harrow, Gideon was still at her mercy all their lives. Harrow chose that abusive dynamic and held all the power. It felt almost manipulative for her to suddenly want Gideon's forgiveness and friendship.
I didn't like Harrowhark in the least. There was nothing at all sympathetic or redeeming about her and I'm not sure if I want to read the next book. It was Gideon's personality and snark that drew me into the book and without her I don't know if I can care enough about what happens to Harrow.
Why didn't Gideon have any questions about the girl in the tomb? How could you not have a million questions about why she was so terrible that a whole planet and a tomb with undefeatable magical traps were necessary to keep her entombed? And so horrible that Harrow decided she had to live with the horrific circumstances of her birth to guard that tomb. But then Harrow decided that she didn't want to go home after all so I guess the girl wasn't so scary by then?
Also, I would've like to know more about Gideon's mother. When Harrow was telling Gideon all those secrets I would've thought that she'd have questions about that too. Maybe the author felt that she'd given sufficient explanation but I thought it was vague enough that there would still be questions. Somebody, I can't remember who, mentioned that there were redheads in one of the other houses. If I was Gideon I would've had questions about that too pertaining to her mother's origins.
And who was the other Gideon? Maybe her mother wasn't naming her child but trying to communicate something about the other Gideon? I hope that's explored in Harrow the Ninth.
I'm disappointed that the book wasn't as blatant about the LGBT characters as I'd been led to believe, but it was also nice to have LGBT characters that just existed without any need for commentary on their sexuality. It was perilously close to the "bury your gays" trope though, with the only blatantly gay character having to be the heroic sacrifice. I hate thinking about it that way but I'm so tired of the trope.
I did like the mystery quite a bit. The part I didn't like was who the villain was revealed to be. I didn't feel like there had been any clues to point in that direction and it felt like the equivalent of a deus ex machina reveal. It felt anticlimactic. I would've much preferred that it was Ianthe or even Teacher.
All that said, I did enjoy the book overall. Despite all my criticisms it. I liked Gideon as the main character, I liked the world-building, I liked the mystery for the most part, I liked several of the side characters and the dynamics between all the disparate characters, I liked the monsters.
And I just realized how long that post ending up being. Sorry.
I enjoyed your long post, Caillen! :DCaillen, The Court Guesser wrote: "Any pop-culture references fit as fragments of something that had otherwise been entirely forgotten. Maybe that was just my semi-conscious retcon though."
You're on the right track, here. This becomes more evident in the second book. Other than that, no spoilers!
"I had a very hard time keeping the huge cast of characters straight, especially since most of them were interchangeably referred to by house, first name, and last name."
The "black and white" versions of the book have a dramatis personae in the front. It was super helpful until the characters differentiated themselves on their own as I read.
"A child raised that way would be psychologically damaged and traumatized so badly that even empathy would be foreign to her."
I've seen objections of this kind elsewhere, but this thread is long enough--and there's also the BR thread!--that I don't want to scour through them finding a specific quote. The gist being, that the Ninth's world has a society very different from the early 21st century anglosphere, so why are these characters parsing like early 21st century anglosphere teens?
"I didn't like Harrowhark in the least. There was nothing at all sympathetic or redeeming about her and I'm not sure if I want to read the next book."
Since the second book is from her point of view, you get to understand her better. Whether she's likable, well...
"I'm disappointed that the book wasn't as blatant about the LGBT characters as I'd been led to believe, but it was also nice to have LGBT characters that just existed without any need for commentary on their sexuality."
Without going into any detail, there is more overt LGBT in the second book. It seems like I'm talking more about Harrow than Gideon here, oops. I'm about 2/3 of the way through Harrow, so maybe that's why.
I agree that Gideon's "final villain" wasn't telegraphed strongly enough, though if I reread Gideon I might think differently.
Caillen, The Court Guesser wrote: "I did like the mystery quite a bit. The part I didn't like was who the villain was revealed to be. I didn't feel like there had been any clues to point in that direction and it felt like the equivalent of a deus ex machina reveal. It felt anticlimactic. I would've much preferred that it was Ianthe or even Teacher." Hmm, I thought pretty early on that something about Dulcinea was obviously very wrong. True, there were barely any hints about her real identity, but I always suspected that a bad surprise would most likely come from her.
Thanks, Beth. Your comments about Harrow the Ninth make me a little more interested in reading it so I'll put it on my list.The "black and white" versions of the book have a dramatis personae in the front. It was super helpful until the characters differentiated themselves on their own as I read.
Yeah, it was there but I read it as an ebook and it was easier to have it sitting in front of my lazy self than to go back and forth every time someone was mentioned that I couldn't remember. That's one way that I prefer paper books over ebooks.
Hans wrote: "Hmm, I thought pretty early on that something about Dulcinea was obviously very wrong. True, there were barely any hints about her real identity, but I always suspected that a bad surprise would most likely come from her."I agree that Dulcinea was shady all along, definitely. I just don't think there was any reason to suspect that it wasn't really her.
I will say that I didn't necessarily think something was "shady" about Dulcinea all along, but I did think there was going to be more to her character than originally suggested. I certainly never suspected she had been "replaced," but there were occasional points where I figured she might end up being the baddie, other times some sort of hero. I just figured she had to contribute more than just being the frail dying girl Gideon was fawning over. I think I'm going to read Harrow sooner rather than later, while this story is still fresh in my mind (though it seems the third book isn't even on the horizon yet.)
Joon wrote: "I'm at like 66% and one of my biggest frustrations with the book is that even after all this time, I feel like we don't really know Gideon. She just reacts. At this point in the story she has shown..."That's a very good point. Honestly, I didn't much mind having the perspective of a passive character. It definitely isn't something I'd want to read in every book, but it was refreshing to read from a point of view that semi-realistically reflects a passive observer who doesn't intrinsically understand all the nuances of the world, and just picks everything up on the fly.
I am in the "hated it till I loved it" camp - I only got a couple chapters in when I tried it last year, and it took a lot of enthusiastic reviews from people I trust to get me to try again, but I'm very glad I did. Allison, your comments about the RPG feel were really helpful in getting me to the right mind-space to enjoy it. I kept picturing the Resident Evil mansion/lab as the setting (the comments in this thread about feeling confused about where things were kind of made me laugh because I am perpetually confused about where I am in video games). I ended up really enjoying the juxtaposition of modern-sounding language with really "fantasy" language - I thought it captured the right tone for the weird mix of genre going in.I really appreciate all the discussion in this thread about the relationship between Gideon and Harrow. I'm still ambivalent about the ending, so it's nice to hear what everyone else thought. For me, it felt in character for Gideon to sacrifice herself like that, but I'm still not sure how I feel about the author putting her in that situation.
I also very much want to know about Gideon's background and the first Gideon, and was very frustrated that it was only hinted at in this story.
Also, I've been trying to figure out why I am unable to read Harrowhark as anything but HarrowHAWK, when to my knowledge there is no such bird as a harrowhawk, and I finally realized that it sounds very similar to sparrowhawk. I wonder if that was intentional, although it doesn't show up in the author's notes about naming... (I was really fascinated by birds of prey as a kid, okay? I have a tattoo of an American sparrowhawk, which is actually a falcon.)
Kaa wrote: "Also, I've been trying to figure out why I am unable to read Harrowhark as anything but HarrowHAWK, when to my knowledge there is no such bird as a harrowhawk, and I finally realized that it sounds..."So glad that I'm not the only one who had that problem. I thought maybe it was because of Harrier hawk but sparrowhawk makes more sense.
Caillen, The Court Guesser wrote: "I had a very hard time keeping the huge cast of characters straight, especially since most of them were interchangeably referred to by house, first name, and last name. Eventually I gave up and made a list of names, houses, and whether they were necro or cavalier. It took a while to differentiate personalities too."Yeah, it reminded me of the old school Russian lit in this way. Wait, that last name/first name/nickname/house are all referring to the same person!?
Joon wrote: "I think I'm going to read Harrow sooner rather than later, while this story is still fresh in my mind (though it seems the third book isn't even on the horizon yet.)"I jumped right into Harrow after Gideon and don’t regret doing so. I also plan to re-read Gideon and Harrow right before the third book comes out. I’m minorly tempted to re-read both books now an then a third time, but I have so much else I want to read I’ll need to wait.
In the meantime, my 15 year old kid is working on Gideon now, and I can’t wait to gossip with them about the books!
Jessica wrote: "Caillen, The Court Guesser wrote: "I had a very hard time keeping the huge cast of characters straight, especially since most of them were interchangeably referred to by house, first name, and last..."It also didn't help that most of the names shared a first letter with another name. This, combined with the relative inconsistency with how each character is addressed at any given point, often led to confusion over which character was which. Not as much for the J's and M's, but definitely for the rest. Even now I'd be hard pressed to tell you which P was which.
Judith/Jeannemary
Marta/Magnus
Coronabeth/Camilla/Colum
Palamedes/Protesilaus
Ianthe/Isaac
Hello. I'm still fairly new to this group. I agree with many people here that Gideon herself was a fun character. she reminded me a lot of Sal the Cacophony from Sam Sykes Seven Blades in Black. This led me to comparing the two books and Gideon didn't match up. I had a really hard time caring about the rest of the characters. Every time someone died, I had a real hard time caring. I had a hard time finishing this book and will not be reading the second book. There were too many YA flags going up for my taste.
I didn't have a problem with Gideon's sacrificing herself because, as others have mentioned, there weren't really any alternatives. For her to go as mushy as she did on Harrowhark while doing so - well, the author certainly tried to establish a real connection, but it wasn't enough for me. I am even considering the possibility that Gideon was essentially lying, and acting emotional in order to encourage Harrow to defeat Cytherea, who she really wanted to be taken down.
A couple quick questions:Did anyone notice the similarity with The Westing Game? A whole bunch of teams of two trying to solve a mystery. I'd be surprised if Muir hasn't read this.
Are we ever given any reason that Gideon survived the poisoning? To have 200 die and 1 survive without any reason or even speculation given for that survival doesn't sit right with me.
Is it backward thinking on my part to find it odd that so many cavaliers were women? Men are bigger, stronger, and faster on average so you'd expect them to have a big advantage in a contest based purely on physical skill.
Mod
Of course, but we are not working with just 9, if my understanding is correct. We are not given the population size of each house, but if we assume the 9th is of a normal size and demographics and extrapolate the 200 population of age 0-19 for the house, we can assume a total population of about 800, of which, let's say, a few hundred are teens and adults of fighting age. With a population of a few hundred, it's a near certainty that your strongest/fastest person will be male.
Of course, this begs the question of how the cavaliers are selected. My assumption is that houses would choose in order to maximize the probability of winning a duel, but it's probably not based on pure merit. Unfortunately, I don't believe we were given any information about this. I would have liked a sentence or two to explain what I see as something of a discrepancy.
I never read The Westing Game, though the story type is certainly not uncommon, and I did get a bit of that vibe reading the book. Kind of a weird cross between Amazing Race and Charlie and The Chocolate Factory with a few Escape Rooms thrown in. There's still too much unanswered about Gideon. And I know part of that is because of the limitations Muir is (evidently) imposing on her narrators/characters. Harrow doesn't know why Gideon survived, therefore we don't know. But it sure would be nice if she gets an answer to that by the end of the trilogy. Between that and the mysterious "previous Gideon" on the note, the book kind of set her up to be this potentially supernatural being.
And yeah I agree that the notion of men being bigger/stronger/etc. doesn't necessarily need to translate to the world of this story. The book did point out several times that the cavaliers' fighting style (and thus choice of weapons) was one of dexterity and not one of brute strength, and as Allison points out, women do tend to be more dexterous than men. Now if there's a narrative reason why they prefer dexterity (and thus women) over brute strength (i.e. men) in their cavaliers, that might be interesting to visit, but it's not something I necessarily need explained.
Ryan wrote: "A couple quick questions:Did anyone notice the similarity with The Westing Game? A whole bunch of teams of two trying to solve a mystery. I'd be surprised if Muir hasn't read this.
Ar..."
I'm so overwhelmed by the size of this thread haha. Someday I'll read it from the beginning, but for now....Yes, Ryan, I got big time Westing Game vibes from this! (And Zelda)
One thing to consider is that cavaliers use rapiers which I believe is a sword art more dependent on grace of movement and strategy than brute force. And I got the impression that cavaliers are (at least partially) determined by being part of a cavalier nobility line.
I was not sold on the Harrow-Gideon relationship development. So much effort was put in to show what a narcissistic psychopath Harrow is and how oppressed Gideon is...and then I read the relationship as romantic. I didn't like it. Others didn't read it that way though. I'm working on a reread and am looking forward to reexamining this.
I think we may be overstating the role of the cavalier anyway. I don't think it's even implied anywhere in the story that the cavalier has to be the "strongest" or "fastest." Yes, there are duels, but it's never really suggested there are major stakes for those duels. It's just a thing they do to settle differences. Don't forget that Jeannemary spoke a few times about her ambition to fight "on the front line" or whatever, at some point. This suggests that the role of cavalier is not necessarily one of prestige or one that requires the best of the best. Clearly the best of the best (including the "strongest") would be on whatever this "front line" is that we haven't really learned about. In other words, the Houses seem to have more important things for their "strongest" to do.
It feels more like the role of cavalier is filled by convenience early on (are they born to it?), and they just train to get however good they can get, and that's that. It doesn't really feel like they "audition" cavaliers.
It's not really an explanation that interests me that much, but if it helps fill what feels to you like a narrative plot hole then it might be worth considering.
Ryan wrote: "Are we ever given any reason that Gideon survived the poisoning? To have 200 die and 1 survive without any reason or even speculation given for that survival doesn't sit right with me.."You didn’t miss an answer in Gideon the Ninth. This is the kind of thing I think is difficult for an author to manage, putting questions out that get answered in the book that are brought up, questions that get answered by the end of the series, questions that are just meant to be unanswered. I think it is fair to be disappointed in the lack of an answer to this within this book.
Joon wrote: "I think we may be overstating the role of the cavalier anyway. I don't think it's even implied anywhere in the story that the cavalier has to be the "strongest" or "fastest." Yes, there are duels, ..."Yeah, I was thinking along these lines too. Cavaliers seem more ceremonial than anything. Not really elite body guards or anything.
Mod
At an individual level, basing anything on one characteristic is just generalization (which is again not considered appropriate in this group!) and about as safe to do as setting cruise control on the Autobahn for the average speed and taking a nap.
Allison wrote: "Yeah, we are told it's ceremonial, and all we know is the pronouns and presentations of all the characters. A reminder again that gender is not the same as what chromosomes you have or which form o..."Very well put, Allison. Thank you.
100% agree with everything Allison said. There is no reason a small group of expert fighters shouldn't be mainly women.On the topic of what the book has to say about how cavaliers are selected, though, the end material (I think it's in the part written as notes from the Second describing all the candidates) does make it explicit that fighting is not the primary skill for cavalier selection in all of the houses. For instance, Magnus is only cavalier primary because his wife is head of Fifth. The nephew from Eighth was basically bred to be the most compatible source of energy for his creepy uncle. Etc.
I believe the end material was not in first editions of the book, so it’s possible some readers here may not have seen it. I also may be totally messing up this line of thought; please correct me if I’m mistaken.(I kind of wish I had read that material first. Haha.)
Hmm, I missed the part where cavaliers are ceremonial. That explains things. The end material is also illuminating.Here are some other questions I had as I read:
Gideon discovered a paper with her name on it at the end of Ch 19. What did this mean? I don't think it was ever explained satisfactorily.
Ch 31 - "One flesh, one end" - What does this mean, and why does Gideon make Harrow repeat it?
Ch 32 - On the tooth it says "Five hundred into fifty, It is finished." What does this mean?
Ch 35: "...but there was also deep tragedy in the flawed beams holding up their lives. An eight-year-old writing love letters to a terminally ill teenager. A girl falling in love with the beautiful stiff she'd been conceived solely to look after." Who do these sentences refer to?
At the end, Cytherea seemed to be healing everything that was thrown at her. Harrow became a Lyctor, but how did that allow her to defeat Cytherea?
Ryan wrote: "Ch 31 - "One flesh, one end" - What does this mean, and why does Gideon make Harrow repeat it?."
Wasn't that a reference to the process of becoming a lyctor? The necromancer consumes the cavalier?
The paper in ch19 and the tooth on p32 are not explained in this book.P35 refers to Palamedes (the eight year old) who has been in love with Dulcinea (the terminal teenager) for years
“One flesh, one end” means both necromancy and cavalier are figuratively as one in working towards the same goal, and literally as one with the process of becoming a Lyctor.
Lyctorhood a big powerup, think Dragon Ball Z.
Palamedes and Dulcinea was my first thought, but I thought Dulcinea was much older than a teenager...Re One flesh, one end: I thought they said this before they understood that becoming a Lyctor meant the necro consuming the cav, and anyway, weren't they against this?
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Westing Game (other topics)The Westing Game (other topics)
The Luminous Dead (other topics)
Harrow the Ninth (other topics)
ETA I remembered that I directly referenced said blurb in my review. I've now edited it so that that isn't the case. Walking the walk, if only in hindsight...