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A Christmas Carol - Staves 1 - 2 (hosted by Connie and Sara)
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Robin P
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Dec 03, 2020 07:59AM
It does get dark early in winter in London . Those of us in the US forget how far north it is because it’s not that cold. Plus with all the smog from wood and coal fires, and the buildings closing in, the air in Victorian times would be brown, as Dickens says.
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Robin P wrote: "It does get dark early in winter in London . Those of us in the US forget how far north it is because it’s not that cold. Plus with all the smog from wood and coal fires, and the buildings closing ..."Definitely! No smog now, & I live in the suburbs with a bit more space between buildings - but I had to switch the lights on around 3pm today as it’s rained all day & is very gloomy. I’m so glad we no longer have to rely on candles ;-))
Gosh, I thought dark at 3pm in London was fiction for the story. I had no idea it was real.
Also, I love the atmosphere in this story. And the bells are are one of my favorite parts.
This is a great discussion. Thanks to all who are contributing, and especially Connie for leading Stave 1.While the overall plot line has stayed clear in my memory over the years, I am struck during this reading by a number of details that I had forgotten that really add to the story and often weren't included in the movies.
The bit about understanding that Marley was dead and comparing it to Hamlet's father's ghost is wonderfully funny.
Dickens' tale is from the 19th century but is relevant today. He does an incredible job of showing Scrooge as a man who has no identity outside of his trade. He doesn't care whether he is called Scrooge or Marley. He has no pastimes or amusements, and his means of killing time between closing the counting house and going to bed is really pitiful. And as strong as this warning is, so many of us get sucked into our work to the point where it defines us. Scrooge's character and will are so strongly pronounced that he is his own force of nature within. Dickens tells us, "External heat and cold had little influence on Scrooge. . . .Foul weather didn't know where to have him." Man vs. Nature, and man wins--if being such a hard person can be a win. Scrooge is not only impervious to the plight of human kind, even Mother Nature can't hold his attention. Nothing can be said of him other than he is a ruthless man of business, or rather, he is the ruthless business. He seems to have been absorbed into the trade itself given that there is no Scrooge, the human. The three ghosts have their work cut out for them.
Thanks everyone about your imput on the weather in London. London is still on my bucket list!
Hi everyone, I’m sorry but I’m not very good at contributing. I do love reading all your summaries of each stave of Christmas Carol. Many thanks
Reading Fury, I'm glad you're joining our discussion.Both Dickens and Shakespeare made it obvious that you can't have a ghost if someone isn't dead. That was a humorous part of the story.
Scrooge is cold and seems to be holding everyone emotionally at a distance. "He carried his own low temperature always about him; he iced his office in the dogdays; and didn't thaw it one degree at Christmas."
Cold is used to describe Scrooge's personality, and also a way to show his greed. He kept the counting house cold, with no regard for his employee, so he wouldn't have to spend money on coal.
Thanks for your observation that Scrooge is only a man of business, rather than Scrooge, the human. Dickens leaves us wondering why Scrooge turned that way and we'll find out later in the story.
Connie wrote: "Thanks everyone about your imput on the weather in London. London is still on my bucket list!"Don’t worry, Connie - once you’re sightseeing you don’t even notice the weather much! A gloomy day this time of year is perfect when you want to see the Christmas lights, but a nuisance when stuck at home & trying to read. One of my favourite things is to walk beside the Thames late afternoon & see the Christmas lights reflecting in the river. Last year I went too early on a sunny day & got very cold waiting for it to start to get dark. It’s one of the things I’ll miss this time.
Hi Mike! It's wonderful to have you joining us as we read "A Christmas Carol."
Trisha wrote: "Connie wrote: "Thanks everyone about your imput on the weather in London. London is still on my bucket list!"Don’t worry, Connie - once you’re sightseeing you don’t even notice the weather much! ..."
I think many of the Christmas light displays will be smaller everywhere this year due to the pandemic. The public health officials don't want people gathering together. Seeing the lights reflecting off the water sounds beautiful!
You all make London sound as enchanting as I imagine it. I'm sure my view of London is very Victorian, since that is my favorite era for reading. I've no doubt I would expect, and love, the misty fog...but it might not be the same if you were living there all the time. Reading Fury, I also enjoy the subtle humor, Dickens trademark for keeping a tale from become just too morose. Good observation about even nature being unable to touch Scrooge, but then Scrooge is an unnatural man, for man is meant to live and communicate with others, and Scrooge has isolated himself from mankind. I think this COVID trial has given us all a taste of what that feels like. One of the hardest parts is not being able to sit and chat with someone and then share a hug.
Connie, love the quotations.
Connie wrote: "Kathrin, anything you can add to the discussion about how economics and Malthus influenced Scrooge would be welcome. I don't remember hearing about Malthus until I was researching "A Christmas Carol.""I actually haven’t looked up economical theories in a while and it was much more fun than I expected it to be. Studying economics was more of a necessity than a passion. I tried to explain it the best I could – please bear with me as English is only my second language.
Apparently, Malthus wrote 'An Essay on the Principle of Population' which describes a phenomenon also known as Malthusian catastrophe. He had three premises: food production is limited by many factors (for example land) which is why it increases in a slower ratio than population numbers. He states that as soon as people have more food, instead of cherishing this situation they have more children and the population grows even more. An increase in the number of children affected the lower class the most according to Malthus. Unfortunately, as a whole, society suffered under the new situation because there are more people to be fed and there is not enough food (even with the initial increase). A positive thing (having more food) leads to a negative effect (suffering, hunger).
To escape this cycle Malthus welcomed severe ‘population control methods’ such as war, plague, and famine to decrease population but also less coarse ones like a marriage later in life. Think about the one-child-policy in China for example.
In regards to A Christmas Carol, it would be horrible according to Malthus to collect money for the poor because they would just go on having more children and thus making society suffer. Decreasing numbers of the population – especially in the lower class – as Scrooge suggested would actually be cruel but ultimately, whoever is left on earth would benefit from it.
This is some tricky theory Dickens threw at us.
I'm betting he considered himself enlightened. Geez! This is part of what Dickens was pointing out, I think, that the masses aren't really masses, they are people, individuals, souls. If you view them just as the masses, you will fail to see how they connect to you.
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I can confirm that England - or at least the south part - becomes dark very early in Winter, dusk is about mid-afternoon. Of course it means that any Christmas decorations and lights in public areas look even better :) I was travelling across to the West Country yesterday, and it was quite gloomy by the afternoon.
Mod
Connie has moved her excellent commentary (thank you!) on to the fog and murky conditions. These were very familiar to Londoners, and what hasn't been mentioned is the "pea-soupers" in Victorian times. The fog was called this because it was such thick smog, due to air pollution.
In the Sherlock Holmes stories, Arthur Conan Doyle talks of "London Particulars". These were particularly bad episodes of fog where you could literally see nothing. Deaths were common, either because of the effects of pollution on weakened lungs, or through accidents caused by not being able to see dangers because of the dense murk. London stank of coal. The fog was due to the soot drifting down, called “blacks”, and the pea-soupers were due to a foul mixture of soot, smoke and fog.
A Christmas Carol was written in 1843, and a few years earlier, on 8th of February, 1834, three young men who had been out on a drinking spree with friends fell into the River Thames and drowned. On the same night there were a number of accidents also cause by the fog on the river, and several more deaths.
Men with torches had to walk in front of any horse-drawn carriages and steamers on the river only operated in the middle of the day. Here is a report by "The Times" newspaper for Tuesday, 5 December 1837, describing the previous day’s fog:
"Not only was the darkness so great [in the morning] that the shops were all lighted up., but also every object in the streets, however near, was totally obscured from the view of the persons walking along. In Piccadilly the darkness was very great, and the confusion caused by the vehicles running against each other beyond description. About 9 o’clock the Hastings branch coach, which had just left the Old White Horse Cellar, while endeavouring to turn into St. James’s-street, ran into the shop window of Mr Hoby, the celebrated bootmaker, at the western corner, which it demolished with a fearful crash, breaking upwards of 40 squares of glass."
The pea-soupers in London, incredibly enough, continued until 1952! So many lethal accidents occurred that legislation was passed in the "Clean Air Act 1956 and Clean Air Act 1968". The "Clean Air Act 1993" has been most effective in removing sulphur dioxide and coal smoke from London.
Thanks for enlightening us more about the London fog/smog, Jean. It sounds horrible for people with asthma and other lung conditions. I'm glad that the air is more pleasant now.
Kathrin, thank you for the additional information about Malthus' theory. It seems to be a very hard-hearted way at looking at people.
Enjoying my reread. I have not read in a number of years, so good to reread. I read a lovely--not beautiful like Jean's book--over-sized picture book of the entire text to my son Carl 30ish years ago. Tjere used to be books like that then. Good memories.
Cynda, that's wonderful that you have the memories of reading this to your son to treasure.
Yes, thank you, Kathrin.Cynda, those are the best kinds of memories and those days pass by us all to quickly.
Yes. A forest ranger now reading about trees and waterways. . . . I think that if Dickens were living today that he might be interested in ecological issues. . . .Thanks Connie.Yes they do Sara, don't they. Such challenging and beautiful times.
Yea, thank you Kathrin. I forgot about Malthus. Without Malthus, Dickens would would not have been the same writer.
Dickens' Interest in the Magical and SupernaturalEven outside of his writing, Dickens had a strong interest in the magical and supernatural. He loved to perform magic tricks at home. He attended seances, but was skeptical about them. In an 1858 "Household Words" article, he questioned why ghosts would "return to make general idiots of themselves by conveying inane messages full of spelling mistakes."
Dickens was involved in Mesmerism (similar to hypnosis), and practiced it himself. According to Roger Luckhurst: "The Mesmerist would throw his subject into a trance, allowing the passage of energy into the weaker body of his patient, as if literally recharging their battery. . . .Associated with trance were spectacular supernatural powers: gifts of cure, visions of the future, heightened senses, and a merging of minds typical of the rapport."
Dickens was first exposed to ghost stories when his childhood nanny told scary bedtime tales. He read "The Terrific Register," a horror magazine as a schoolboy. The Victorians had a strong interest in the supernatural so Dickens incorporated ghosts into his short stories, Christmas stories, and some of his novels.
I'm really enjoying re-reading A Christmas Carol and appreciate everyone's insights and comments. Thank you @Connie for the great summaries and research and @Katharin for the economic overview and @jean for the further insights.I'm reading the Wordsworth Classics "Christmas Books" edition which has A Christmas Carol along with other Dickens Christmas stories, The introduction by Cedric Watts was very interesting and had another comment about Scrooge's name:
"..her noun 'screw' (slang then for 'a stingy fellow, an extortioner, a skinflint') explains the surname 'Scrooge': which in turn has entered dictionaries as a synonym for 'miser or curmudgeon'."
I love that there are different theories about the names.
The grave theory is much more entertaining however. Also I live in Edinburgh and used to work on the Royal Mile just up from the Cannongate Kirk - I'll have to go and investigate one day :)
How neat to have our own private investigator on this one, Laura. It would be wonderful to find the grave! Take pictures.
Sara wrote: "How neat to have our own private investigator on this one, Laura. It would be wonderful to find the grave! Take pictures."I shall definitely try and make it a mission! :)
Connie wrote: "Dickens' Interest in the Magical and SupernaturalEven outside of his writing, Dickens had a strong interest in the magical and supernatural. He loved to perform magic tricks at home. He attended ..."
I love Dickens' comment about seances.
Katy, one of the things I enjoy most about Dickens is his sense of humor.
Laura, thanks for the information about the name Scrooge. There may have been more than one thing that influenced Dickens in choosing the name. Like Sara, I think it would make a marvelous trip to visit the Cannongate Kirk.
References to Malthus and the idea of 'surplus population' causes me to wonder whether those cockeyed theories might explain the astonishing lack of concern in some quarters at the deaths of over 200,000 Americans due to COVID. The need to keep making money seems to be a more compelling concern.
Jim, in both cases there is the idea that other people's lives don't matter as long as they are doing well themselves.
Mod
Yes, "screw" is used in English even now, colloquially to mean getting money out of someone. Perhaps not in the USA? I've often thought that the surname Oliver Twist was one of Charles Dickens's little jokes, as Oliver asked for more, and in a card game when you say "twist" you ask for another card! Often there is more than one happy derivation or association which had led to Charles Dickens's choice. Here it was poor Mr. Scroggie, allied with the slang term "screw" (meaning tight-fisted).
However what Cedric Watts meant, was that the name/word "Scrooge" to mean a skinflint came about as a result of Charles Dickens's invention of the character Ebenezer Scrooge. He coined the word himself, as has done many others, such as "Pickwickian" or "Pecksniffian". which are both originally taken from characters in his novels.
So not different theories as such - just a combination of happy circumstances. Charles Dickens loved to play with language :)
Mod
Charles Dickens was also fascinated by anything supernatural and remained so all his life. But as Connie pointed out, he was not easily taken in by fraudsters. Charles Dickens loved to investigate the idea of ghosts and ghouls, sprites and fairies, and they pepper all his works. He was not the only author to feel this way: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed in fairies almost to the point of obsession (and was famously fooled along with thousands of others by the Cottingley fairies) and remained a Spiritualist all his life.
Charles Dickens was a little more circumspect - at least in public - but as Connie mentioned, he was a keen exponent of Mesmerism. In 1838 he had attended several lectures on the subject by a professor of clinical medicine (who had introduced the stethoscope to England) John Elliotson and others. Charles Dickens became adept at it, most notably in 1844 with a Madame Augusta de la Rue, who suffered from extreme anxiety, spasms, hallucinations and strange thoughts in which she spoke of being pursued by a “phantom”. She improved greatly after a month.
Charles Dickens mesmerised his wife, Catherine, his friend John Forster and firmly believed this procedure would help pain, and to relax someone.
Interestingly, six years after the first publication of A Christmas Carol he treated his illustrator of it, John Leech! In 1849 John Leech was injured. The accident left the artist with concussion-like symptoms which would not disappear, despite all the best efforts of his doctors. He was in a great deal of pain and unable to rest. Charles Dickens rushed to help his friend, and within a few days John Leech’s condition had improved.
There is a book on Dickens and Mesmerism: The Hidden Springs of Fiction by the scholar Fred Kaplan. Mesmerism was developed by Franz Anton Mesmer. It used hypnotic trances to heal people.
Thank you for introducing this aspect, Connie! It's central to the story :)
I finally got around to rereading Stave 1. I love the description of Scrooge as "a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner! Hard and sharp as flint, from which no steel had ever struck out generous fire' secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster." I think the reason I love The Muppet Christmas Carol is that the narrator (Gonzo) actually says lines like this right out of Dickens' prose. Usually there is no way to put this into a visual production.On the other hand, the conversational parts transfer perfectly to stage or screen, so that almost everyone knows "Bah! Humbug", "Let them die and decrease the surplus population", "A poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every 25th of December", etc.
The question about why Marley haunts Scrooge is legitimate. He wants to warn his partner because he knows Scrooge is making the same mistake. But I thought it might also have to do with the simple fact that Scrooge is living in what used to be Marley's rooms.
There is an odd thing about the promised visits. My version says "Expect the first to-morrow, when the bell tolls One. Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third upon the next night when the last stroke of Twelve has ceased to vibrate." In all the films I know of, it is at one, two & three o'clock the same night that the ghosts visit, since the time in between isn't "real". We do now that somehow it all ends before Christmas Day. So what does Scrooge do during those extra days? Does he somehow sleep through them? We know those days don't exist in the outside world. Very weird and something I never noticed before. Is my copy incorrect?
There is an early version of some elements of the Christmas Carol that appears as one of the interspersed stories in Pickwick Papers, something about a church sexton or gravedigger visited by a ghost.
Mod
Now I'm rereading the text I am reminded how cosy it is, as if someone is sitting next to me telling the story. I love that! No dramatisation can ever capture it for me.
Good point about Scrooge living in Marley's room (sorry Connie - I don't want to step on your toes! But it had never occurred to me before, that Scrooge could have a heightened sensitivity to the "Spirits" in that particular room).
As for the time differences, I just assume time is suspended. We'd accept it in a Sci Fi story. It adds to the disjointed feel, doesn't it?
There are several instances of grave diggers in Charles Dickens's stories; often minor characters, and yes they are usually haunted - and added for comic effect :)
Jean, I'm glad you added all this extra information. I'm finding it fascinating so don't worry about "stepping on my toes." I hope everyone will contribute!Robin, for me, the time differences of having three nights in one when the ghosts visit suggests that Scrooge might be dreaming the whole sequence. He's asleep before the bells chime each time announcing the ghosts. I haven't read any explanation about it so I assume it's magic or Sci Fi as Jean suggests. (Your text has the time of the visits by the ghosts correctly. Maybe some children's texts change it so kids don't get confused.)
Jean, the book you suggested about Mesmerism sounds fascinating. You mentioned Dickens using Mesmerism on Madame Augusta de La Rue for a month. I read in The Mystery of Charles Dickens by A.N. Wilson that it was a tremendous cause of stress in the Dickens marriage. Charles was spending a large part of every day with Augusta while he and Catherine were on vacation. I wish I still had the library book so I could write more about it.
Robin P wrote: "I finally got around to rereading Stave 1. I love the description of Scrooge as "a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner! Hard and sharp as flint, from which no s..."I actually liked Gonzo‘s remarks the best when it comes to The Muppet version. This breaking down of the fourth wall always amazed me - even when I was little. The movie was in cinema when I was about six years old but I hadn‘t encountered The Muppets before. I was born in the GDR and The Muppets wasn‘t something my family was familiar with. We watched it more for content instead of the puppets.
My copy of the book features the same text which means it‘s probably correct. I also stumbled about this wondering why it‘s not three ghost visiting him in one night. I guess Stave 2 will enlighten us. EDIT: I can really go along with Jean‘s explanation.
The aspect of the extra days has been used in a modern era set film with Ross Kemp. The days in between ghosts show how he hasn’t really changed. I love this version. In the original, I had thought that each ghost work is a complete day cram in an hour and that’s why it was changed.
Robin P wrote: "There is an early version of some elements of the Christmas Carol that appears as one of the interspersed stories in Pickwick Papers, something about a church sexton or gravedigger visited by a ghost."It's Chapters XXVIII-XXIX"A Good-Humoured Christmas Chapter" and "The Goblins Who Stole a Sexton" in the Pickwick Papers. The Pickwick Papers is online on Project Gutenberg. I have not read the story, but the British Library has a short article about it.
https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/th...
France-Andrée wrote: "The aspect of the extra days has been used in a modern era set film with Ross Kemp. The days in between ghosts show how he hasn’t really changed. I love this version. In the original, I had thought..."It's fascinating how a story can be interpreted in so many ways in film and on stage--and even in our imaginations!
Mod
"Charles was spending a large part of every day with Augusta while the he and Katherine were on vacation" - Yes, you're right, Catherine didn't like it at all!
You know, thinking about it I'm sure Charles Dickens would have much preferred the idea that it was "magic", than us trying to work it out logically :)
You can read The Story of the Goblins Who Stole a Sexton free on Gutenberg LINK HERE.
Robin my version alludes to the time issue in the introduction....when Scrooge, regenerated, finds that the Spirits have, as he had requested, completed their tasks in one night, not three..."
I think it refers to the passage in Stave One where Scrooge asks Marley " 'Couldn't I take 'em all at once, and have it over, Jacob?' hinted Scrooge,"
There's no further explanation in the intro of how/why the time scale differs from that which Marley laid out but I had not remembered Scrooge specifically asking to condense the experience so I thought it interesting.
Found this link also: http://scroogebook.blogspot.com/2011/...
I am currently reading The Pickwick Papers with another group. I read the sexton's story and thought of--of course of A Christmas Carol--and of folktales. I see a hint of it in Hamlet as well, as well as local stories, very universal it seems: Sieze the Day, Choose Life, other viariations
I volunteer at the local YWCA where we remember and remind each other that the largest population we serve locally is the Elderly and Lonely--almost in capital letters we talk. Returning to Christmas Carol after many years, I immediately recognize that the horror that Scrooge feels upon seeing Marley's ghost is partly heartbreak layered upon heartbreak--the loss of Marley and the reaction to his present state. (Again I am reminded of Hamlet.). spoiler alert
Laura, that's an interesting link with people's ideas about when the ghosts appeared. The comments below the article show that everyone has a slightly different explanation which makes it fun!
Cynda wrote: "I volunteer at the local YWCA where we remember and remind each other that the largest population we serve locally is the Elderly and Lonely--almost in capital letters we talk. Returning to Christm..."There have been lots of med students and psychiatrists that have tried to analyze Hamlet. It's interesting that they now have Scrooge as a "patient."
Cynda wrote: "I volunteer at the local YWCA where we remember and remind each other that the largest population we serve locally is the Elderly and Lonely--almost in capital letters we talk. Returning to Christm..."Cynda, what an interesting link! I never would have considered the possibility that Scrooge had a psychotic episode. lol
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