EVERYONE Has Read This but Me - The Catch-Up Book Club discussion
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Discussion: End of Year/Hogwarts Challenge
Hello.I enjoyed the challenge last year, I don't think it should be less intense, I didn't feel we were fightin or there were problems. There are many other challenges that are more focused on discussion and I find this challenge cooperative in fact. Each team or house cooperates and all members work together. I had fun and, to be honest, it encouraged me to read more.
About changing the topic, I don't see the point. As said by Joanna in message 1, Harry Potter world and fandom is way much more than the author's opinion. It has become something that doesn't belong to JKR anymore, so why rejecting it just because of the author? I have grown up reading Harry Potter, it has nothing to do with the author.
One more thing, and here I'd like to make a plea in favor of the author (sorry is this sentence is wrong, I'm not sure if you say it like this in English) but media and people seem to be only focussing on her mistakes or unpopular opinions, but she is not a monster and she does good things too: from the beginning she has made big donations to charity and has a foundation to help orphans and institutions working with kids with problems. Why don't we think too on how many people she has helped and the good things she has got to do for the world? Maybe the problem is that this things are not on media so often, so we people tend to forget.
Judging a person only for having been a good author forgetting about everything else is as unfair as judging a person for a part (the negative part) instead of trying to see the whole picture about the person.
Sorry for the long message and I didn't mean to bother anybody. My apologies in advance if I did.
In what concerns to this challenge, as I said at the beginning, I think we can separate our liking for Harry Potter from our opinions about the author.
Thanks for making this thread, Joanna! I hope we can get some good feedback from those that joined last year or previous years.I personally loved the challenge- it got me really excited about reading again and helped me feel accomplished and meet some new reader friends. It was a little stressful just because I wish I could read more, but it was a fun kind of stress. I loved how the houses each kind of had their own community feel and pride. I also think the point system worked out great, as frustrating as it can be if you're just short of the next "tier" xD, but in that way it makes you perhaps read some books out of your comfort zone for the challenge i.e. choosing one that's 250 pages over one that's 230 to get the extra point.
As far as JK Rowling, I don't know much beyond reading a few articles on it and the tweets; to me it didn't seem she meant specific harm but she just doesn't understand the experience of the people she is criticizing and shouldn't pretend do. I am very surprised she hasn't rescinded/apologized.
I personally can separate it from the challenge though as I see it as more about our own personal reading journeys, comradery and team spirit than the Harry Potter franchise itself. I do understand your stance though Joanna of trepidation of having this book club associated with a current controversy.
I'm happy with option 1 or 2- changing the theme is a good compromise if we find that people would be offended/uncomfortable with it.
Would love to hear more thoughts on this!
Mod
I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome participating in this group or the challenge because they associate the books with the author.
Or give the impression that we moderators support Rowling's views. Anyone should be able to join this group and feel comfortable here, no matter who they are.
I never participated in the challenge, but I do think that focusing on one particular franchise may not be the best idea anyway. No matter how many fans the story has. I admire you for opening up discussion on this. You want broad appeal, and you don't want to exclude anyone who might be uncomfortable with views expressed by the creator of the franchise. So, choosing a more universal theme, one not tied to any particular individual or studio, might work better. You wouldn't have to change anything except the names of the teams.
That being said, if anyone is interested in the third possibility, "Feature a less intense challenge that is more discussion focused or cooperative," I, personally, would be interested in participating.
I would be in favor of keeping the Hogwarts challenge the same. It’s something that I look forward to and it motivates me to read more. And I for one love getting to be on a team with my fellow Slytherins.
I have loved this challenge from the beginning, though I have felt a decline each year and was not planning on participating this time due to what I perceived as petty whining last year (unpopular opinion from the previous posts). I know I am not the only one who was frustrated at all of the complaints of the rules, or of the number of picture books that were read by participants to get "easy points" (why spend the time reading War and Peace if you can get the same amount of points from reading picture books for a fraction of the time?). It was the first year I did not feel inspired to read more out of the fun of the challenge.I basically live under a rock right now (baby, quarantine, family matters, no TV, no facebook, small net usage except Goodreads, etc.) and have no idea what Rowling said, though now I am curious to google it. But I agree that we should have something that is comfortable for all participants, even though Slytherin needs a chance to regain their title of Champions ;)
I would be interested in seeing how option number 3 would look though: more discussion and cooperation? How would it play out? I feel like there is little to no discussion in the other challenges, just people posting what they read (which is fine, that's what I do), but there are numerous times I want to ask people their thoughts on a particular book. Also, little actual discussion going on in the Lord of the Rings thread at least, so I don't know how the other Currently Reading picks are faring. Do things still get discussed in this group? I've really been out of the picture lately, so honestly just don't know as I haven't had time to scope around.
Kerri wrote: "I have loved this challenge from the beginning, though I have felt a decline each year and was not planning on participating this time due to what I perceived as petty whining last year (unpopular ..."I'm not the best one to answer to this because I have never been that active for buddy reads and gruop reads, one reason is that I've never felt that there was real discussion about it (again, in my little experience in it, so it's likely wrong). So, I feel that if there are already discussion groups, etc. and people is nor participating much, what would be the point for another discussion thing? How would it be different to make people engaged and participate?
I also agree with the thing of people reading easy books to with lots of pictures just to gain points, but I'd include audiobooks. Playing something as if it were youtube or the radio is not the same as reading. It's listening. You may enjoy the story equally, but the activity itself implies less focus, less time and less mental engagement. I am a listener of audiobooks too, and I feel them different activities. So those things felt unfair. Still, I enjoyed because I knew I could never be among the first ones of the House, but as a collaborative game, there were people doing those things in all the 4 houses, so for the general game and the team competition, it was ok to me.
I'm not sure if I have been able to express myself here haha
I look forward to this challenge each year. It is the only team challenge I participate in on a regular basis. It actually keeps the holiday stress level down for me. I would participate in the Hogwarts Challenge again or a similar end of year team challenge. I agree with Kerri about the picture books. Last year, I counted the picture books I read with the kids, read to children in hospice and books read while tutoring children because others were doing it. (Yes Mom, other kids were jumping off a bridge and I went along!) I understand how frustrating that can be to anyone reading a larger book and hope that situation could be addressed regardless of the challenge.
While I strongly disagree with what JKR said, I strongly support her right to state her opinion.
I would not participate in a discussion based challenge, sounds too much like a Buddy Read or BOTM.
The challenge is only stressful if you put pressure on yourself. I did not see anyone on my team put pressure on myself or my teammates.
Whatever you decide, thank you for all your hard work and allowing me the opportunity to voice my opinion regarding the challenge.
My house won this challenge one year and it was in part due to myself reading a lot of children's books and another member reading a lot of manga/comics. The reality is children's literature and comics are a big part of my reading life.However, if participants are cranky about those books counting, then I recommend hosting a poll about weather or not comics and picture books should count towards the challenge this year. I would be fine if the group doesn't want them to apply towards points.
Then we can have folks start to argue about weather or not those slim volumes of poetry should count "words don't even fill up the whole page!" :p
I always really look forward to the challenge. It is what got me going into reading again a few years ago. I personally don’t feel like it has to be tied to the Hogwarts theme. But do think that the teams and points (whatever the theme) help to drive people to challenge themselves in new ways. I think we all just need to personally be ok with contributing as much as we can but not feeling bad if you aren’t obtaining the most points in your team. There will always be people who try to read for points strategically and as long as it gets us all reading, it doesn’t really matter to me what books those actually are. :)
I too read a lot of picture books and poetry. And in my world, they count. So, maybe the intensity of the challenge could be changed somehow....For a possible example, teams could work together to complete a certain number of picturebooks, a certain number of non-fiction, a certain number of science fiction, a certain number of classics, *plus* a certain number of doorstoppers.
That way we could still "drive people to challenge themselves in new ways" which is a reason I am in bookgroups in the first place, thank you Lina for saying that.
Or we could choose the popsugar or bookriot or something else challenge and see how many members of the team get at least half the books read from that list, something like that. I'm just brainstorming ways to ensure that the challenge is about diversity/ breadth, not just about racking up points.
Sonsoles wrote: "Hello.I enjoyed the challenge last year, I don't think it should be less intense, I didn't feel we were fightin or there were problems. There are many other challenges that are more focused on di..."
Thank you Sonsoles. I think you explain yourself very well.
Britt wrote: "Thanks for making this thread, Joanna! I hope we can get some good feedback from those that joined last year or previous years.I personally loved the challenge- it got me really excited about rea..."
Thanks Britt. Appreciate the feedback on how the challenge works too.
Tori wrote: "Thank you for posting this Joanna! I agree with Sonsoles and Britt that I love this challenge and want it to continue. I can separate the Harry Potter books from the authors views. I would also lik..."Thanks Tori. Well said.
Cheryl wrote: "I never participated in the challenge, but I do think that focusing on one particular franchise may not be the best idea anyway. No matter how many fans the story has. I admire you for opening up..."
Thanks Cheryl. Good points on the franchise-based challenge. It seems like there’s pretty good support for options 1 or 2, but that doesn’t mean option 3 is off the table.
Kerri wrote: "I have loved this challenge from the beginning, though I have felt a decline each year and was not planning on participating this time due to what I perceived as petty whining last year (unpopular ..."Thanks Kerri. Welcome back from under a rock and congratulations on the baby ;). Interesting on the complaining, because from my perspective, year 2 was the year of complaints.
I will post more on what option 3 could be but if anyone has suggestions feel free to add.
Sonsoles wrote: "Kerri wrote: "I have loved this challenge from the beginning, though I have felt a decline each year and was not planning on participating this time due to what I perceived as petty whining last ye..."Thanks Sonsoles — appreciate the feedback on the challenge, and again, I feel you express yourself well.
Kathy wrote: "I look forward to this challenge each year. It is the only team challenge I participate in on a regular basis. It actually keeps the holiday stress level down for me. I would participate in the Hog..."Thanks Kathy, appreciate your input.
Honore wrote: "My house won this challenge one year and it was in part due to myself reading a lot of children's books and another member reading a lot of manga/comics. The reality is children's literature and co..."Thanks Honore, good points and good idea on the poll.
Lina wrote: "I always really look forward to the challenge. It is what got me going into reading again a few years ago. I personally don’t feel like it has to be tied to the Hogwarts theme. But do think that th..."Thanks Lina, good points on what can be contributed personally.
Cheryl wrote: "I too read a lot of picture books and poetry. And in my world, they count. So, maybe the intensity of the challenge could be changed somehow....For a possible example, teams could work together t..."
Good ideas Cheryl. Thank you. Keep ‘me coming if you’ve got more.
Honore wrote: "My house won this challenge one year and it was in part due to myself reading a lot of children's books and another member reading a lot of manga/comics. The reality is children's literature and co..."I don't think there's a problem if really people read those books, I read them too. I don't see why, in general, they shouldn't count. The problem comes when people who hasn't read any of those in the entire year, all of a sudden read 2 or 3 per day just to get points. From my point of view, it wasn't about the books, it was about being honest.
Cheryl wrote: "I too read a lot of picture books and poetry. And in my world, they count. So, maybe the intensity of the challenge could be changed somehow....For a possible example, teams could work together t..."
I like this idea of completing a certain number of books on each type, so we can make categories inside the general challenge so everyone, not matter what they usually read, can fit and participate in different levels
Bookriots and popsugar are good ideas too, but I find there are more challenges like that, so it maybe less interesting. But still good ideas.
Thank you =)
I have participated in this challenge as well and I have enjoyed it. JKR did make some comments that were challenging but I think her comments were insensitive and uninformed rather than inciting hatred.
I have an issue with the way books get counted and I have commented on this in the past. While I agree that the point is to get people to read, it is hard to compete when you are reading 300 plus page books while others are reading 30 page books. I know there were attempts to even the playing field but I think it is hard to compare apples to oranges.
I agree with Lina’s points (message 11). It’s a challenge in which people can contribute in their own way. I feel that we should be celebrating & encouraging that, especially when life is so hard this year. Reading should be something we can all enjoy, whatever our reasons for choosing particular books. Last year’s scoring system seemed successful & removed many issues over what is “fair” to read as the page count was considered.
Sonsoles wrote: "The problem comes when people who hasn't read any of those in the entire year, all of a sudden read 2 or 3 per day just to get points..."I think the main goal of the challenge is to get people reading, so including children's books and comics seems to do that. I personally love the idea of a parent who hasn't sat with their child much to read books now ripping through the kids whole book shelf with them.
Children's literature is an amazing category of books and I don't think many adult read them and are missing out. I love that this challenge might steer them to this type of book.
The Twelve Dancing Princesses
We Are All in the Dumps with Jack and Guy
Olivia Saves the Circus
Here are three of my faves that fall all across the children's lit. spectrum. Scoop 'em up from your local library, they are worth your time even if you don't get points for them.
Catherine, that compromise seems reasonable to me. I'm glad you're not saying poetry, though, because poetry takes longer to read. One really can't process it at the same pace as narrative text.
Other than that, I just realized that my other suggestions were more the Bingo challenge than for the End of Year challenge. For that, I wonder if we couldn't survey members for prompts. I would like both challenges to encourage discussion, though. Otherwise ppl could just enter the main GR challenge; what's the point of having it in group? Imo.
Every year I look forward to the Hogwarts challenge. It's always a lot of fun and I appreciate this group and what the mods and readers do.I don't agree on what JK is saying, but everyone has the right to express their opinion. That doesn't need to be linked to the books. Personally I have the feeling that the HP - books stands independent from what JK is telling. But I also think that maybe the theme can change in something else than the Hogwarts Challenge. But everyone knows it by that name now ;)
What Catherine gives as a compromise sounds reasonable to me too. Also, challenges should be fun, entertaining, relaxing...it's not about the competition and the points.
Honore wrote: "Sonsoles wrote: "The problem comes when people who hasn't read any of those in the entire year, all of a sudden read 2 or 3 per day just to get points..."I think the main goal of the challenge is..."
Definitely I'll check them, thanks for the recommendation. I love kids literature and also illustrated books even if they are for adults. Those would count less points too for the fact of being illustrated, not matter if they are for adults or not. But I read them anyway.
I'm not against anything if they encourage people to read and specially if it includes quality time with kids around. I'm just saying that it feels unfair sometimes because there is big difference between the effort and time that you have to put and the points that you get for them.
But maybe there can be some categories in the challenge or try to make groups more balanced instead of leaving the choice 100% to the participant, so everyone can be happy and enjoy and feel they contribute in a relevant way and not feeling that just because they have a different preference of readings, they count less.
I think keeping the challenge would be the best in my opinion, it is something that brings everyone in this group together every year and is something to look forward to especially after the year everyone has had. I also think we shouldn’t judge the challenged or the Harry Potter books because of the authors actions. She was and is ignorant to many things.
Catherine wrote: "How does everyone feel about allowing children's book, comics, manga, etc. but having a limit per person, per month that are allowed? So allowing three full points worth (6 books) per month? That w..."I'd be happy with this, but on the other hand I think it would stop other people from participating if they mainly read those kind of books normaly. So far, your solution seems to be the best one for me. I'm not a person to read many of those, so to me is good.
But we should hear too the opinion of people like Honore. I wish more people would participate here in this debate so we could know if they'd participate if those readings were limited.
On the other end of the spectrum, we could offer a big incentive to read like a 700+ page book, make it worth 10 points or something. I know that I've shied away from reading my copy of Oswald's Tale: An American Mystery because of it's heft. I'm totally open to limiting the number of illustrated books you can accrue for points. I would just be disappointed for them to be disqualified all together.
Sonsoles, i'm so happy you'll check out those titles. Those books are all special to me.
I participate in a group of volunteers reading stories to and with children who are being tutored. We also read to children in hospitals and at holiday parties. Obviously this is extremely limited this year. I would still participate in the challenge if children's books did not count or were limited in the challenge. I enjoy all sorts of books. By working in literacy programs in the past, I'm in the "doesn't matter what you read, as long as you're reading" group.
Do ppl get points for reviews? I write reviews for almost everything I read, and especially for books that I dnf. It takes a lot of time, but is worth it to me. And I really really appreciate reading others' reviews! So, does the challenge value reviews? If not, should or could it?
Sonsoles wrote: "I wish more people would participate here in this debate so we could know if they'd participate if those readings were limited."I don't participate regularly here and I don't know yet if I will participate in the end of year challenge, but I've seen other groups count pages read, instead of books read. Wouldn't that solve a lot of the problems that are currently being discussed here? I don't know if it fits the challenge, though.
Cheryl wrote: "Do ppl get points for reviews? I write reviews for almost everything I read, and especially for books that I dnf. It takes a lot of time, but is worth it to me. And I really really appreciate readi..."
I would love something that motivates me to write reviews! I always want to, and I have a lot of thoughts, but I almost always procrastinate sitting down and actually writing them.
Catherine wrote: "How does everyone feel about allowing children's book, comics, manga, etc. but having a limit per person, per month that are allowed? So allowing three full points worth (6 books) per month? That w..."I think that is a good compromise. I, too, was guilty of hopping on the bandwagon of reading those comics/manga and childrens books (albeit I'm a grandma.)
As far as participating this year, I probably won't. It's not that I don't like the challenge. It just caused me too much stress. It was self induced -- I can't help being too competitive (type A)
I liked the compromise from last years challenge of picture books/comics counting as .5 points. I think that points for reviews would be nice too, but that would be an extra step for the moderators, and their job is already quite a handful!
Thanks for starting this discussion Joanna! I’ve really enjoyed participating in this challenge in the past but I’m uncomfortable about keeping a Hogwarts theme. It might be hard to find another fictional world so many people resonate with tho. I had a friend on Instagram suggest identifying as a type of bender a la The Last Airbender, so we could group people in different elements. There are other popular wizarding school books that could be the basis of a challenge as well. I have no problem counting children’s books and graphic novels and I thought last year we’d remedied the issues people had by giving books points based on length. Children’s books and graphic novels are still books and should count, just give them less points.
Audiobooks definitely count as books. I get really angry when people try to claim they don’t. I have a brain injury and have more difficulty reading books with my eyes. Reading with my ears is easier. This is the case for other people with neurological issues and visual issues, as well as for people who are auditory learners. Audiobooks are books!
Mod
Understandably, the edition of the book chosen can affect page numbers, but then someone who reads War and Peace or another 700+ page book gets more credit than one short book.
This way, everyone can add every book they read regardless?
I just want to say that I love children's books and manga. I don't want anybody thinking I don't, there are lots of wonderful books in both genres. But for me personally, with this particular challenge, I did not feel motivated to read the books I wanted to read because I felt that I had to give my team a fighting chance by bulking up on children's books and manga to keep up. Which, though I love, I don't want to read all the time. And Joanna, you're right! The major complaining was the year before. Last year is kind of a blur for me. I think the one that tipped me over the edge was someone saying they would no longer participate in the challenge until they were allowed to count the audiobook they listened to on repeat multiple times.
Kaseadillla wrote: "Regarding the comments on children's books... given those are usually shorter, thoughts on changing the challenge slightly and having it be a collective PAGE COUNT instead of outright BOOK COUNT?..."
We did use page counts last year in a tiered way. Here were the general rules, that we can make adjustments to:
1. Similar to last year, we will use an average score to balance the different house sizes. However, this year we will use a tiered scoring system based on the number of pages in a book. Essentially, it's 1 point for every 250 pages read within a book. Here's the breakdown:
1-249 pages = 1 point
250-499 pages = 2 points
500-749 = 3 points
and so on...
NOTE: If its a graphic novel, heavily pictured book or sparsely worded (i.e. poetry), half points will be awarded, so it will be 0.5 points for every 250 pages. The points will be awarded per book and not per cumulative pages read.
2. Number of participants per house will be counted based on contributions, so if a member signs up and does not contribute, they are not used in average calculations.
3. This challenge will feature a ROUND ROBIN TOURNAMENT with each month featuring a matchup with a different house. To count for a matchup, the book must be read within that month and posted no later than one day after the end of the month. We will not do late term adjustments, but books read in an earlier month (no earlier than October) can still count toward your house’s overall total. The winner of the tournament will be featured in EHRTBM Hall of Fame.
4. There will also be an Overall winner featured in the EHRTBM Hall of Fame.
5. Participants must log their book in Goodreads as read to count them in the challenge.
6. Since this competition can get intense, please note that there we do expect good sportsmanship from participants and failure to demonstrate good sportsmanship will result in warnings. Multiple warnings or extremely offensive remarks may result in a participants removal from the challenge.
I'm good with limiting number of smaller books if that's the consensus. Can we maybe just make it page number related rather than singling out children's books? Maybe a limit on the number of books under 50 pages that count?I also like the incentive idea, Honore.
Megan wrote: "Thanks for starting this discussion Joanna! I’ve really enjoyed participating in this challenge in the past but I’m uncomfortable about keeping a Hogwarts theme. It might be hard to find another fi..."Thanks Megan. Maybe we should just make it the EHRTBM House Cup. We could keep the same setup, 4 houses, but bring in elements from other series also. Maybe each house can pick a patreon based on another book or series or magical creature. Something like that?
For option 3:What do you all think about doing something similar to build-upon story that was done in 2017: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Not exactly discussion based but it can be fun without the stress of keeping up for your team. Maybe rather than on-going it could we could have different them each month and start over.
Joanna Loves Reading wrote: "Megan wrote: "Thanks for starting this discussion Joanna! I’ve really enjoyed participating in this challenge in the past but I’m uncomfortable about keeping a Hogwarts theme. It might be hard to f..."This would work with Megan's idea regarding "The Last Airbender"
There are 4 elements
Catherine wrote: "I love the idea of the four elements, or something like that. I was even thinking we could base it off of the four seasons and you join whichever house (season) you're born in depending upon your h..."I agree with extra points for a BOTM. Should we make it contingent on adding thoughts to the BOTM thread?
For the reviews, could that be in the main thread?
In terms of houses, some have expressed enjoying reading with their fellow housemates so I still think having some tie to that would be good and just adding in other elements/ties to other series. I'm ok with any of the options however. I also think that grouping by birthday season would be fun too.
I'm so happy to see this discussion here. I've loved participating in this challenge the last few years but I've grown very uncomfortable participating in HP fandom at this point. This is a personal decision and I fully understand the community there existing beyond Rowling at this point, but I'm glad that this is at least being acknowledged in this group. I liked the system that was developed last year of different point levels depending on page count in a book, but using picture books/comics never bothered me and especially if we are going for a more "relaxed" feel I think we can reward longer books while still letting everyone participate in lots of ways.
I also really enjoyed the Genre-lympics challenge last year (I think that's what it was called) so perhaps that could be an idea to move away from HP and do something with broad appeal for any readers. I ended up reading a lot of books in a genre that I love but that wasn't getting a lot of other books just to pump it up which was a cool personal challenge. And since people can move between genres rather than being on a single team, perhaps there will be less nitpicking each other.
The extra points for the BOTM is such a smart idea, it keeps people engaged in the book club side of the group. I love that!
EVERYONE Has Read This but Me - The Catch-Up...
Books mentioned in this topic
Oswald's Tale: An American Mystery (other topics)The Twelve Dancing Princesses (other topics)
We Are All in the Dumps with Jack and Guy: Two Nursery Rhymes with Pictures (other topics)
Olivia Saves the Circus (other topics)
For three years running, this group has featured a Hogwarts Challenge at the end of the year using the Harry Potter books as inspiration. Participants branched off into their chosen houses to compete. There have been cooperative and competitive components to the challenge, and it's seen high and lows. But, the enthusiasm and excitement associated with challenge has been high every year. It was definitely the intent to hold the challenge again this year, but 2020 is a weird year to say the least. Global pandemic and social unrest are a big part of that.
Unfortunately, Harry Potter's author has been one making some headlines. We recognize that the Harry Potter franchise is bigger than one person's opinion, and many associated with it have expressed opposing views. However, it still may be an uncomfortable theme for some, which is not something any of us would desire. It also can be a stressful challenge, which could go against what everyone is needing to finish up 2020.
In short, let us know what you would prefer to do to finish out the year in this discussion thread. Our goal would be to make sure we feature something that is a positive experience for participants.
Some possibilities:
> Keep the Hogwarts Challenge with similar format as previous years
> Have a similar end of year challenge but change the theme (i.e. each house could represent a magical creature)
> Feature a less intense challenge that is more discussion focused or cooperative.
>No additional challenges or discussions are preferred.
As always, please be respectful in expressing opinions/preferences.