World, Writing, Wealth discussion
World & Current Events
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If you're not in the U.S., what's up in your part of the world?
The current major events in NZ:a) We are bombarded with election ads, etc
b) Crisis in Auckland if you live on the North Shore. A large truck caught a "gust" of wind on the harbour bridge, got turned over, and collided with a structural strut. 4 lanes of an already overloaded bridge closed.
c) One COVID - 19 "immigrant" got through quarantine test9ng negative, but at 21 days tested positive. No clear evidence he could have picked it up since arriving, so for some the incubation period may be somewhat longer than suspected.
Erik wrote: "I am from Mexico city"Hi Erik, welcome, what's up in Mexico? What makes the major headlines?
UK TodayGoing back into almost lockdown
Sports test events with spectators - no spectators
Pubs and restaurants more restrictions
Workers told not to use Public transport and work from home
Labour Party leader speech
FinCen papers - banks behaving badly regulators not regulating
Wot? Banks behaving badly? Surely not :-)Meanwhile, I heard on our news Boris is putting in more restrictions to fight off a further wave of the virus. Best wishes, Philip, and stay virus free.
Thanks Ian - I hope NZ remains reactively clear.Boris went on national TV last night having already said the same things in Parliament (as he should do) TV commentators then spent next hours (and are still) telling us what he said whilst changing context and asking why he should or should not have acted earlier and have had foresight of Nostradamus and the best tea leaf readers in the world.
Row this morning is whether the chief scientists implemented a herd immunity policy by delaying lockdown in March by a week. This is based on emails where herd immunity is mentioned - it seems that the criticism of Boris has dropped (YouGov Poll showed 70+% agreement with Gov policy) and now is going after scientists.
The new restrictions (harsher in Scotland) are not full lock down in that restaurants pubs and schools/universities are still open. Cases are well below March levels and thankfully deaths and hospital admissions are still well down. Evidence from Spain and France is showing these numbers will pick up a few weeks after case increase.
Philip wrote: "Thanks Ian - I hope NZ remains reactively clear.Boris went on national TV last night having already said the same things in Parliament (as he should do) TV commentators then spent next hours (and..."
Politics aside, do you think he has done a good or fair job with COVID? I cannot really tell what England thinks in this case.
Papaphilly wrote: "Philip wrote: "Thanks Ian - I hope NZ remains reactively clear.Boris went on national TV last night having already said the same things in Parliament (as he should do) TV commentators then spent ..."
Polls state yes although news reports state something else. Opposition politicians claim disaster but offer no alternative because they know that they would have been following exactly the same advice from the same scientists. The main dispute is on whether lockdown should have started a few days earlier in March using statistics produced in April and the lack of testing despite increase in tests from <50,000 per week (confined to NHS workers and hospital patients) to nearly 300,000 per day. Advice has changed and this again seems to be a cause of complaint.
Brexit back on some news yesterday when road haulage association complained about letter from minister and demanded more time to prepare -3 years after referendum and 9 months since last election and Brexit has not been enough time for them to figure out which forms they should carry. The same forms used if they go outside EU borders or through Germany. Issue is the French may check for such paperwork causing delays or they may not given French want to import/export too.
With all those bureaucrats, office workers, etc, and somebody can't design/acquire/copy a form :-(
Ian wrote: "With all those bureaucrats, office workers, etc, and somebody can't design/acquire/copy a form :-("My frustration with this all through the Brexit debates is that the UK is fully aligned with EU now. Article today stating that packaging needs to change - just madness - it only needs to change if some bureaucrat cannot apply common sense. the package imported /exported on 31st Dec is no different from the package on 1st Jan. No manufacturer is changing their ingredients, components, processes or procedures - the madness continues
Ian wrote: "With all those bureaucrats, office workers, etc, and somebody can't design/acquire/copy a form :-("it is government,what do you expect?
Philip wrote: "Ian wrote: "With all those bureaucrats, office workers, etc, and somebody can't design/acquire/copy a form :-("My frustration with this all through the Brexit debates is that the UK is fully alig..."
As far as I can tell, it is making life difficult because they can.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ian wrote: "With all those bureaucrats, office workers, etc, and somebody can't design/acquire/copy a form :-("it is government,what do you expect?"
Actually, my expectations appear to have been realized :-(
You guys in Australia and NZ seem to have the COVID thing under control much more than we do. Are you still concerned about contracting it? Are schools open there, pubs, etc.? It seems they should be with such a low incidence of cases. Leonie, you mentioned that diplomatic tensions with China continue to rise. Can you explain?
In NZ here, my granddaughters have been at school, although they are closing for their regular two-week break. Granddaughters are not going to be going to bed early for a couple of weeks :-)Pubs are open, and where I live at any case, for the moment everything is much like normal. Apart from a massive storm approaching, There is a 37 hPa pressure difference between Auckland and Invercargill - a record. Fierce winds expected over the weekend. Good for school holidays :-(
Scout wrote: "You guys in Australia and NZ seem to have the COVID thing under control much more than we do. Are you still concerned about contracting it? Are schools open there, pubs, etc.? It seems they should ..."Scout, it's going very well here at the moment. In my state, NSW, we had four cases yesterday, three of which are in hotel quarantine on the way home from overseas. One was a mystery case, with no source yet known, and that case is three hours drive away in Sydney. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-2...
What that tells us is that we still have the bug circulating in the community - at least in Sydney - but at very low levels. But at the same time, as we know, it only takes one case to set off a chain of events. My own local government area has had one confirmed case only. (A returned traveller.)
BUT - our area has DIDO workers (drive in, drive out) from the coast, the city, and further down the valley. So if there was a surge, everyone is at risk.
Personally, at this point, I think the risk of me catching it is quite low, but I have to always work as if I might, or might be infectious. This is only good sense, and it's what helps to keep things under control in the long term.
Schools have been open all term here, and our year twelves are allowed to have COVID safe end of year functions. Restrictions have eased a lot. Here's the whole list: https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/what-...
But last night, for the first time since March, I went to a farewell event with friends at a local pub. We had to remain seated, and check in electronically, which included an 'I am not unwell and haven't been in any risky places waiver' and use sanitiser, but it was really nice to attend a social event, even though it felt really, really, weird. Almost surreal.
Leonie, you mentioned that diplomatic tensions with China continue to rise. Can you explain?Scout, so far we've had journalists in trouble and expelled, academics not allowed in, trade embargoes, and political sabre rattling. And we're a US ally, which is another layer to the onion. China is our biggest trading partner. And, in reality, is very close by, globally speaking.
Here's a few articles that might help the picture.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-2...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-2...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-2...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/202...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-1...
Apart from a massive storm approaching, There is a 37 hPa pressure difference between Auckland and Invercargill - a record. Fierce winds expected over the weekend. Good for school holidays :-( It's been here (last night), and I am about to go and pick up all the fallen branches in the yard. It's freezing cold, and windy, which is just a bit of a contrast to the 30 degrees C of about 5 days ago. Some places have had snow!
The wind is getting more serious here :-)
I am wondering, do you all think that NZ and Australia having less than 1/10th the population of the USA has been a big contributing factor toward the lesser outbreak or does it all come down to how it was handled by each government and the cooperation (or lack thereof here) of the population?
As far as I am concerned, in NZ the main contributing factor was the actions of the government, and the cooperation by most of the population. Sure, there are some who objected and refused to follow rules, but I think most people realised that if we did it properly once, all would be well, and it was, until the government let too much of the border leak. It was interesting that the degree of cooperation from returning Kiwis was a lot lower than from the general population. I know the first week of lockdown, I was out on the roadside hacking vegetation off the bank, and a pedestrian came down the road, and immediately went to the far side to give the widest berth. (That may seem more than actual - my road is rather narrow running down a steep hill.)
I'm sure being an island has helped. However, our major cities have been the sites of our outbreaks. And their population density is no different to many other places around the world.
I think several things have helped.
1. Our government acted rapidly. Not perfectly, but rapidly, and across the whole country. Remember that we have many, many international visitors to Australia, so we were very vulnerable when the borders were open.
2. Australians were, and are, mostly on board with government action, distancing requirements, and the initial lockdown. Here in NSW we had the Ruby Princess debacle that could have gone dreadfully badly, but was contained as a result of that initial lockdown.
While we have COVID deniers and some protesters, the vast majority of people I have spoken to are happy to comply in the interests of public health.
Australians are not generally, individually obsessed with 'my rights.'
3. Contact tracing has been good in most places - but I should probably qualify that Victoria, until recently, didn't have as efficient and scaled up systems in place as perhaps it should have. But contact tracing has been doable due to the much lower case loads than many other countries.
4. Testing capacity has been substantially increased. Our premiers are constantly reminding us that we need high testing rates, particularly in areas where the virus is most likely circulating.
5. The initial lockdown gave the health system time to ramp up. So far only Victoria has required the extra capacity.
6. Most people are aware that it can all change very rapidly. It doesn't necessarily mean that we'll be ready again if it does, but hopefully we'll remain on top of it.
7. Public healthcare. No costs involved for either testing or treating.
8. Financial support - JobKeeper and JobSeeker. These are about to be reduced. I am concerned that this might lead to problems.
Clearly our response has not been perfect, however it has been largely across the board. Our states are a bit variable in terms of border openings and closures, and this is causing some political angst. The federal government wants them all open.
And I am concerned that our current rather conservative government still hasn't grasped that the idea of trying to stimulate the economy needs to start with the people who spend the money, not the big businesses. All the commentary from economists etc emphasises this.
Leonie wrote: "I'm sure being an island has helped. However, our major cities have been the sites of our outbreaks. And their population density is no different to many other places around the world.
I think s..."
Leonie --- do you guys have the same State's rights issues conflicting with the federal government, the way we do in the USA?
We do have some issues with states. They appear quite different to the ones the US is currently having - by that, I mean they are in the opposite direction. Ours are keen to avoid case surges by reducing restrictions too rapidly.Our Federal government is very keen for all state borders to reopen. Some of the state Premiers are not so keen. Our premiers have been more conservative in terms of response to the virus in some ways - by conservative, I mean not in the political sense, but in making sure COVID cases don't get away from them.
In the political sense, two of the most strong premiers on border control have upcoming elections...QLD and WA,
Most of the current cases are in Victoria - and in fact in Melbourne. Consequently, all state borders are currently closed to Victorians. I live in rural NSW. We are currently on our fourth day of no community cases in greater NSW, but we do know that there must be virus circulating in the community as we have had some cases with 'unknown' source prior to that.
We cannot go to QLD at this point in time, or Western Australia or Tasmania. (With granted exemptions we could, but with two weeks quarantine in a hotel at our own expense.) I believe we are now (as of this week) able to go to the Northern Territory, as we don't live in one of the declared 'hotspots.' We can go to SA, also as of this week, as we don't live a hotspot area.
This is the major contentious issue. It is definitely politicised.
Since I have family (aged parents, sister and family, and son) who live in WA, who I now haven't seen for 18 months, I would love to go to WA. At the same time, having originally grown up in WA, I understand why West Australians are happy to keep the borders closed. It's a parochial West Australian thing. People from WA intermittently talk semi-seriously about secession. And there are quite literally, two sealed roads into WA. Perth is the most isolated capital city in the world.
I really want to see Mum and Dad (92 and 87) but at the same time, I would have to pass through Sydney to get there, and although cases are currently not being recorded, I know that there must be virus circulating. I have very conflicting feelings about this. And my 'health hat' is warring with my 'want to see the family hat.'
QLD is another matter. We share multiple roads across the border, and although the 'cross border bubble' has recently been expanded, the QLD premier has her eyes fixed on the October election, and isn't budging. I understand her not budging on Victoria, but it's starting to be a bit less understandable about wider NSW. I mean, it's not like we couldn't fill in a border permit, and have our drivers licences etc checked.
This is how the states look in terms of cases in the last fourteen days:
ACT 0
SA 0
NT 0
Tas 0
WA 0 (community) some in hotel quarantine
QLD 2 from known sources, some in hotel quarantine
NSW 10 from known sources, 2 from unknown source, the rest in hotel quarantine
Vic 185 known sources, 88 under investigation, none in hotel quarantine. (All overseas arrivals have been diverted from Victoria to other states.)
Everyone who arrives in Australia (except for apparently some celebrities 🤦🏽♀️) must spend two weeks in hotel quarantine at their own expense, unless the trip was prebooked before a certain date, and then the government picks up the $3000 cost.)
Source for figures; https://www.covid19data.com.au/cases-...
Thanks for those articles, Leonie. I can see what you're dealing with regarding the Chinese. I think if I were an Australian in China, I'd be making plans to leave posthaste. I didn't understand the grain problem. If China needs the grain, why are they being so confrontational? The story by the reporter gave me a good idea of the way things work in that country. Very scary. The other day, I watched an hour-long interview with Mike Pompeo, our Secretary of State, and he discussed what he and Trump have done about China and how big a threat China is. Contrast this with Biden, who said as Vice-President in 2011 “that a rising China is a positive, positive development, not only for China but for America and the world writ large.” His son, Hunter, has close ties with China and has made millions. Now, Biden is trying to make a 180 and say that Trump has been too easy on China. What the heck? https://thehill.com/opinion/internati...
The Australian/China economic love affair is 'off,' for now.
Returning to the virus thread, in NZ people coming into the country are quarantined in hotels for two weeks. To add to our influx, Australia has started deporting people nominally Kiwis who have got into trouble with the law. I say nominally because some of them have never been here after the age of two, so they have no friends, no idea of how the country works, and perforce they have no money. However, that is not the point of this post.What has hit the news is that one of these people in quarantine absconded from the fourth floor of a hotel (in NZ, the ground floor does not count, or it is the zeroth floor) by forcing open a window that was not supposed to open and making a rope by tying sheets together and climbing down, then climbing over the netting fence (They should put razor wire on the top, but they haven't quite gone that far) then he either stole a car or had an accomplice (this is not clear yet) and drove all over Auckland. You now start to see how difficult it is to maintain a quarantine with some people other than effectively putting them in some sort of camp, or on an island, Some people simply refuse to cooperate, although I suppose we can assume this turkey was a criminal or gang member.
That's wild. And Australia is deporting Kiwi criminals? Sounds similar to US deporting Mexican criminals. How do you guys feel about this?
NZ is not exactly thrilled. We have enough criminals of our own.
UK NewsMore lockdowns
Behaviour of a Scottish MP (Scottish Nationalist Party) who despite having symptoms and having taken a test travelled from Scotland to Westminster on a train. Then took part in a debate in the House of Commons then got results and travelled back to a different part of Scotland by train. This same MP heavily criticised the PM's advisor in March after he took a car journey to visit his mother. She has been suspended from her party and calls for her resignation as an MP
More lockdowns
News from States on Trump's positive test
Turkey EU row
Electric scooters call for legislation
Scout wrote: "That's wild. And Australia is deporting Kiwi criminals? Sounds similar to US deporting Mexican criminals. How do you guys feel about this?"Mixed feelings here, Scout. It's pretty normal for countries to deport people who break the law - I think many countries have laws regarding this - but those laws are often applied variably.
However, the issue here is that some of the deportees to NZ are those who moved here with their parents as children, grew up here, and then broke the law. They have quite literally lived here all their lives, and are culturally Australian, but have never chosen to become Australian citizens.
While I am generally critical of Australia's hard line on some refugees, (generally those who have come in boats vs those who come on aeroplanes), this is problematic in a number of ways.
They are culturally Australians. They have been here most of their lives and have no ties to NZ. BUT they haven't chosen to formalise their Australian-ness. This means they don't vote.
At the same time, I think it's stupid, and a waste of resources.
Leonie wrote: "Scout wrote: "That's wild. And Australia is deporting Kiwi criminals? Sounds similar to US deporting Mexican criminals. How do you guys feel about this?"Mixed feelings here, Scout. It's pretty no..."
Same issue with some folks here in UK i.e. in Brexit debate when non-UK residents were not permitted to vote (also in Gen elections) had complaints from some who had lived in UK for decades who never got asked why they did not become subjects of UK but complained about not being able to vote.
As for not taking Australian citizenship, these guys tend to be towards the bottom end of the socio-intellectual spread. I mean, they ended up as criminals, and their interest in civics is minimal. These are nothing like the average non-UK resident. Many of them seem to be the most violent of Australian gangs, and when they come here, they know nobody, can't get a reference for a job because nobody knows them, and they come here full of resentment for being separated from their friends and relations. They will be a problem for a very long time because they are very resistant to getting help, and getting a legitimate job, if they even wanted one, is very difficult right now thanks to the unemployment caused by the virus. They probably don't have a legitimate driver's licence, so they may not even carry photo-ID.
To get a driver's licence they need to pass a test of our road rules, which will have minor differences with Australia (not enough to be a nuisance for a visitor, but enough for a picky written test) and they need a friend to drive them to the test and give them the use of a car. They shouldn't have legitimate money to use a teaching service. With all the disadvantages, integration is very difficult, and by definition they are criminals so guess what they resort to?
It’s really noble to accept immigrants and give shelter to refugees, however it often backfires resulting in suffering of both locals and newcomers. Don’t know how true this is, but my friend from Sydney says that his friends in Melbourne claim most locals reside beyond 10 km zone from the center, which is full of gangs comprised mostly of immigrants and refugees. If true, sounds like a lose-lose situ, instead of intended win-win. There should be a thought through integration policy
Leonie wrote: "Scout wrote: "That's wild. And Australia is deporting Kiwi criminals? Sounds similar to US deporting Mexican criminals. How do you guys feel about this?"Mixed feelings here, Scout. It's pretty no..."
Without getting into the bigger discussion, they are not Australian. They could have become Australian and chose not too for their reasons. On top of that, they broke the law. I am assuming it is real crime and not "Drunk Driving" type of crime. Do not get me wrong, it is their fault and only their fault. They have no one else to blame and chose their path.
Philip wrote: "Same issue with some folks here in UK i.e. in Brexit debate when non-UK residents were not permitted to vote (also in Gen elections) had complaints from some who had lived in UK for decades who never got asked why they did not become subjects of UK but complained about not being able to vote....."If they are not citizens, why should they be allowed to vote? The U.S. version of these idiots demand non-citizens the right to vote. they are not citizens and that right is reserved for citizens in the Constitution.
Nik wrote: "It’s really noble to accept immigrants and give shelter to refugees, however it often backfires resulting in suffering of both locals and newcomers. Don’t know how true this is, but my friend from ..."From what I am reading, these people are resisting integration. It is never easy for any immigrant to assimilate. It usually takes two-three generations for any group to assimilate fully into the United States. I assume this is true anywhere. Now add resistance and anger, it is going to be ugly. Our history is full of this.
Papaphilly wrote: "From what I am reading, these people are resisting integration. It is never easy for any immigrant to assimilate. It usually takes two-three generations for any group to assimilate fully into the United States. I assume this is true anywhere. Now add resistance and anger, it is going to be ugly. Our history is full of this. ..."Yes, this might be true for some categories. And there are lots of questions arising in this context.
From all I know (and I do know a bit since a few people I know personally went through it), Australia and Canada, for example, accept immigrants and have a careful procedure selecting who's eligible. The prospective newcomer has to prove s/he's integrable and able to support him/herself. You need to prove certain command of English, have one of the desired professions and meet some other criteria - the process may take from a few months to over a year. You can reasonably assume these people would give a fair effort to integrate.
Plus, some countries (not sure about Australia & Canada, but Germany for example) offer solid financial packages that allow legal immigrants to fare well for quite some time or have a general comprehensive social security system availing the same. No wonder most refugees and work migrants want Northern Europe.
And then there are refugees, who seek shelter, but have no intention to integrate. Of course, the shelter is to be given, but what's next? Should refugees be "forced" on locals, who don't want them? For example, Slovak government refused to take Syrian refugees, hypocritically claiming "there were no mosques in Slovakia and they wouldn't feel comfy". Discriminating? Yes. But should you force them to be "nice and all embracing" or one can still decide, whom to admit to his/her home?
Papaphilly, as for the rejected criminals, they are Australian in all ways except on paper. They have spent all their life in Australia other than maybe the first two years, and who knows what about that? Of course the fact they are criminals is their fault, and it is their fault to exactly the same degree as their previous Australian cell-mates. This may seem difficult for an American to understand but in this part of the world, other than for international travel and voting, nobody takes much notice of citizenship status, and the chances are these guys are verging on illiterate, they don't want to travel, and they are happy not to vote.The issue is also not so much that they deserve whatever is coming to them, but rather from the NZ perspective, Australia bred them so why doesn't Australia take responsibility for them? If they were people who started here and went there recently and got chucked out, fine, but these particular ones appear to have no option here but to continue a life of crime. yes, we shall have to lock them up, but that doesn't mean we appreciate Australian generosity in giving them to us.
I came across a video in which a young lady with both Australian and US citizenship talks about some political differences between those two Nations. I'm curious what Australians and others think of the video.https://youtu.be/lwuDlWMxl40
I found her comments about how Australians relate to their military curious. If true, I suspect that it may be the result of the size of the US military. In the US, unless you are solidly ensconced in the Patrician class the odds are good that you either served, are related to someone who served, or know someone who served. Every generation of my family in America has had members serve, and that is commonplace for working class Americans.
For what it is worth, NZ is a sort of foreign country to Australia -we don't have a constitution but we do have a bill of rights. Voting is voluntary here but we usually get over 3/4 turnout. However, on issues like guns, patriotism and the military we are very similar. Most people here don't think in terms of patriotism and only a very small number of people want to join the military. I suspect that part of the problem with the military here is that there is the fear of getting dragged into conflict we have no part in. In my youth, we disliked the thought of being dragged into Viet Nam (we did send soldiers, but the problem was we disliked the way it was being fought because we could not see any reasonable way of winning it), and we definitely disapproved of the second Gulf war. Most people believed there were no weapons of mass destruction (and I had evidence they were essentially impossible unless a lot of others were not doing their job) and so when none were found, the general annoyance continued. We get annoyed about sending guys off to die for no good purpose.
Ian wrote: "Papaphilly, as for the rejected criminals, they are Australian in all ways except on paper. They have spent all their life in Australia other than maybe the first two years, and who knows what abou..."My entire point is that the paper matters. They are not Australian. I am not disagreeing with you on this point, but the paper matters. We have very similar circumstances here too. They are called dreamers, young children brought here and only know the U.S., but they are not citizens. I feel truly bad for the ones that are trying to live a good life and do the right thing, but I have zero qualms to throw out the criminals. Let me turn your question around to you. Why should Australia keep criminals when they are not citizens? They came and stayed illegally. Why should they be given safe harbor? They are criminals. New Zealand does not want them back, I get it. Why should they take back criminals they had no hand in raising? Because technically they are Kiwis and not Aussie.
J. wrote: "I came across a video in which a young lady with both Australian and US citizenship talks about some political differences between those two Nations. I'm curious what Australians and others think o..."I think it's more about our attitudes towards overt patriotism rather than the size of our military. (In my family, we have direct and current ties to all three services - army, navy and airforce.)
We appreciate our military, and we honour them, but on the appropriate days - ANZAC Day and Remembrance Day. When in the US, my observation was that military and ex-military had what I would describe as quasi-reverence conveyed towards them. Serving military members in my family have said that the 'veterans board first' call at the airport would be embarrassing to them if it applied here. In fact, one of the airlines attempted to start that here a couple of years ago, and it lasted barely any time at all. There was an outcry from the veterans against it.
We find overt patriotism (except on the appropriate days), embarrassing and over the top. I might choose to wave a flag on Anzac Day, definitely not on Remembrance Day, and on Australia Day, it's anything goes. International sport? Definitely yes.
We do watch the hand on the heart, flag saluting, patriotism, of the US, with a bit of bemusement.
Leonie wrote: "J. wrote: "I came across a video in which a young lady with both Australian and US citizenship talks about some political differences between those two Nations. I'm curious what Australians and oth..."I find America's attitude toward our military bemusing too. They are all volunteers, many of which who did it for the paycheck and benefits. It was a choice of a career, since the draft ended in 1973. I live in a military town with an intelligence base at the end of the main road. If a business doesn't automatically offer the military a discount people get upset with the business. A good portion are double dippers - meaning they have their retirement pay from the military and then had a civil service job and will have or do have a 2nd retirement. The benefits as to medical, education, reduced rates on loans for everything from homes to cars result in the military families being able to live more easily than most of the employees of local businesses. When I first moved here and became employed in 1984 I asked my employer for medical insurance. It had never occurred to him because he always had military dependents as staff in the past.
I recognize that soldiers put their lives at risk. But, so do many other jobs. I realize they are transferred about and families have to start over in each new post, but it is a volunteer military made with full knowledge of the pros and cons in signing up.
The plane boarding is customary especially since our nearest airport is in a city with an air force base. Interestingly, even the prisons here have separate units for Vets with special provisions that the other inmates don't have.
Papaphilly, yes, I can understand Australia wanting to get rid of them, but I do not buy the "They came and stayed illegally." Their stay in Australia was quite legal up- until they committed crimes, and when you came at the age of two, say, I doubt they gave any thought to legality. Australia and NZ do not devote much attention to paper. I lived in Australia for two years and apart from immigration people, I never showed any paper, apart from showing my NZ driver's licence to get an Australian one. These guys probably never even thought about citizenship because there was no benefit in getting it, up until deportation. If they hadn't been jailed, nothing would have happened - they were not illegally there. NZ and Australia have free interchange travel - no visas required. If they work, they pay tax wherever they work. They merely have to show a passport at the border to enter, but once entered you can stay there.
In NZ, there are flags shown on Anzac Day, and dawn ceremonies. Apart from that, most ordinary people do not ever think about the flag. International; sport brings out the patriotism, especially if the other country is Australia, but before that is taken the wrong way, you get equal fervour for a game between Wellington and Auckland. Even on Anzac Day we do not wave flags, but we may fly them respectfully.
In USSR uni students were exempted from active military service and it was generally considered that only idiots went to the army. I know my school isn't representative, but out of 12 (not sure) male graduates - only one went to the army. And unsurprisingly too - because soldiers were treated as cannon fodder, readily dispensable for any purpose. The pack was important, while the fate of individual wolves didn't matter. Israel, on the other hand, is super patriotic and soldiers are comprehensively treated as everyone's children, with some exceptions. Were it not for the army this country wouldn't exist. Both boys and girls get conscripted and most do it with much enthusiasm
As Nik says, "Were it not for the army this country wouldn't exist." That goes for the U.S. also. When you say, Leonie, "We do watch the hand on the heart, flag saluting, patriotism, of the US, with a bit of bemusement," please take into account that we had to fight for our freedom. We know the price of freedom; we know the sacrifices our forebears made; that's a big part of our identity, and we don't forget it. The flag is a symbol of that.Here's a question for you guys who are also having your own immigration issues: Should taxpayers be responsible for providing free health care for illegal immigrants? That's what Biden proposes here. How is health care handled in your countries regarding illegal immigrants?
There are disagreements here about what constitutes an illegal immigrant. For some reason, our government puts differences between those who arrive on aeroplanes and those who arrive in boats.While immigrants are in detention, the tax payer picks up the tab. Our government has put in place (in my opinion) completely inhumane incarceration of immigrants in island detention (Manus and Nauru), with significant restrictions. The Australian Medical Association, along with asylum seeker advocates, lobbied successfully for the government to be forced to bring significantly unwell people to the Australian mainland for treatment.
Some of our politicians are attempting to repeal that. I have significant issues with this. We should always treat people humanely. It is a blot on our human rights record.
Here's a site that seeks to assist asylum seekers. https://www.asrc.org.au
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
1984 (other topics)Common Sense (other topics)
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (other topics)
Lolita (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Mel Brooks (other topics)Victor Davis Hanson (other topics)
Peter Zeihan (other topics)
Bobby Fischer (other topics)
Jordan B. Peterson (other topics)
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Mass whale stranding in Tassie.
Money laundering allegations naming some Australians after US government leak about large banks. https://www.icij.org/investigations/f...
Victoria's caseload continues to reduce. Melbourne is now down to 45 a day on 7 day rolling average. Regional Victoria is 1.6.
Various inquiries into hotel quarantine continue.
An Australian (Richie Porte) makes the Tour De France podium, but then is straight into changing nappies due to his daughter being born during the race. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-2...