a probably premature discussion of what the next group challenge should be

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I won't be reading The Wheel of Time with you guys. I read the first three, I think, and quit on the fourth as they came out. My major recollection is that there was a lot of traveling around, but otherwise, nothing ever really happened. I know the journey can be the story, but I am just not willing to commit to it. But I will have time to catch up on The Expanse if you pick it. And I will be cheering you guys on.

[Eva]

I've heard that the world of Wheel of Time is built on reverse sexism: since male mages go insane, women have been in power for centuries and tend to treat men patronizingly. Some find the female characters annoying because they're so assertive and used to authority. Not sure if that's true, it's just what I've heard. In terms of one book being one scene: he probably meant that the middle books become very descriptive and can drag if you want more action and plot development - from what I've heard.

But I admit I'd be more interested in The Academy.

When does the Amazon series of WoT start?

[Gabi]

Kristen wrote: "I have a “want to/don’t want to” desire to read wheel of time. I’ve heard it is good and a classic and the Amazon show is an enticement, but I’ve also heard mixed messages about the level of sexism. Anyone want to speak to that? How bad is it? I think my husband told me he read it a long time ago and one of the books was literally just a woman taking a bath?"

I have read the first two books so far (I have to use my audible credits for them, so it goes very slowly - wish they were on storytel) and for your typical European middle age setting I found it surprisingly female-positive. The thing that jarred me the most is that some of the woman characters are raving about the idiotic male mc who clearly is less competent than each of them. But overall the competence of the women is very much to my liking (as mentioned, this is speaking for the first two volumes). The first book is more or less Lord of the Rings, but with women.

I've only started reading the series cause I want to read Sanderson's finale and thought I should know the rest before that. Later I learned that I could read the Mistborn series without knowledge of the rest, so I'm not sure I will continue.
If it becomes a group read here, though, I will.

[Allan]

I read the first 12 before Sanderson finished the series so it was some time before I picked it back up. I know he was hand-picked and had a library of documentation to work with, but Sanderson really did a great job with it.

The books are way too long for one to consist of an entire bath scene. They move between characters like a gigantic Tom Clancy book, and you can’t see what’s coming until all the story lines converge in a giant climax. I felt there was enough story/resolution in the intermediate books for me to want to keep moving. My favorite characters were the women, as they were strong and interesting, and I really wanted to see what happened to them and how they fit into the “chosen one” overall theme.

[Allan]

I read back through the thread, and regarding the McDevitt series being templated, that’s true, but from what I’ve read, more so in the Alex Benedict series. I guess that’s the pitfall of any recurring character type of series. But where the AB books I’ve read were good, the first two Academy books were exciting page-turners, at least for me. Actually, I think the series would go faster than some we’ve read.

[Kristenelle]

Ok, hubber dubbers just clarified that the book switched between characters but the one character was only taking a bath the whole book. Every time the narrative returned to her it was just her thinking about things while bathing. And that there is another character who married three women and that the series is hella sexist. So I’ll pass. Honestly, it kind of sounds like all the qualified series are problematic/a function of their time. So I’ll just remove myself from this discussion. No judgement for those who want to read them, but I have trauma that sexism triggers.

[Allan]

A quote from a Reddit forum: I think that one of the bigger problems here is that a lot of readers insert their 2019/2020 prejudices into a book. That's not the say that RJ was perfect with regards to sexism, but most of the complaints that I see say more about the readers than the books. I'll quote Brandon Sanderson from your own link:

Man, people sure are quick to accuse RJ of sexism on my Twitter feed & Facebook. I think any who do this are blatantly wrong.

However, if you look at the time devoted to female viewpoints—and the plots of those characters—the "RJ is sexist" theory erodes.

Warning: Long update on this topic. As a nod to those who truly know feminist literary theory, I'll make a less "Twitter friendly" argument. Robert Jordan, by creating a world where the women and men are very aware of gender roles, spent a lot of time delving into these topics. I'm convinced he was aware of male privilege, and though biased—as all of us are—sought very hard to overcome his own biases by creating evocative female characters with plot lines that do not center around the obtaining of favor or romantic interest from male characters. He also sought to create a world where women were not defined by how they were viewed by men, but were instead defined by their intelligence, determination, and accomplishments. In this way, though he exposes some small masculine biases in various areas, he was extremely progressive as a dominant male writer of his era, and should be regarded as anything other than "sexist" for his efforts. /Scholarly Brandon

[Allan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comm...

[Eva]

It also has over 1,000 named characters and 148 viewpoint characters, so one of them just thinking about her past while in a (not sexually-described) bath for a book isn't a big deal - she's just one of 148! In terms of viewpoint gender distribution, the books become much more focused on what the female characters are doing as the series progresses:


I took the above from here https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/s...

I'd actually only previously heard it described as a bit sexist towards men, not women. But I totally understand if anyone doesn't want to risk being triggered due to trauma issues. For a whole year, I couldn't read or watch any scenes that involved choking without getting terrible PTSD flashbacks - which made me discover that choking, especially women getting choked, is in *everything* these days, even the most harmless-seeming comedy show. I had to stick to classics and Middle-Grade, lol. It took a while to recover and become desensitized again. Now I'm fine with choking scenes, but I understand what it's like. So take good care of yourself and let yourself recover in peace. ((hugs))

[Allan]

Gene Wolfe: have we discussed The Book of the New Sun? I haven’t read any Wolfe at all, and I perceive The Fifth Head of Cerberus to be complicated, as Z mentioned earlier. New Sun looks like it would be pretty good, and the books are average in length.

[Kalin]

I had nominated New Sun for a 2020 challenge, but we went with Vorkosigan. I still want to read it, I've heard it's actually a challenge though. The kind of books you might struggle to really understand on your first read. (So kateblue isn't going to vote for it :P)

[Joe]

So... this isn't premature anymore.. It's 2021. Thoughts?

[Allan]

I think this would be a great 2021 challenge, although we do still have New Crobuzon running for a couple months. I know the first 4 books are nominees, not sure about the 5th. I did read The Shadow of the Torturer toward the end of the year, but I want to finish it out this year, challenge or not.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

At the moment we have this going on: https://www.goodreads.com/challenges/...

New Sun sounds like a good choice though. Let's decide by the middle of February.

[Gabi]

Allan wrote: "I think this would be a great 2021 challenge, although we do still have New Crobuzon running for a couple months. I know the first 4 books are nominees, not sure about the 5th. I did read The Shado..."

Yes, I was wondering for that. Do we have a thread for it anywhere? I'm eager to go on with the series but I think I missed the starting signal for Scar.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I have wanted to try New Sun even though I think I failed at it years ago. Hey, if I stop, I stop! Maybe I can finally get through the Expanse, then!

[Kalin]

Kate I'm going to hypothesize that you'll get a lot more out of reading the Expanse than New Sun.

[Allan]

Don’t you step on our buzz, Kalin!

[Joe]

I think I'd be more interested in Gene Wolfe than the Expanse... I read the first few Expanse books not that long ago... the first one was great, they they got weird, then it seemed it was going to be a totally different series and I gave up. Not sure I'm ready to re-read.

Book of the new Sun I read a LONG time ago, and I remember feeling like it was good, but I didn't get it. I suspect I'd do better now :).

I'd try just about anything, though, my whole purpose in being here is for book ideas, after all ;)

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

It's just the usual differences between our tastes, guys. I am sure the Expanse is more for me than the Wolfe books.

I am currently reading book 2 of the October Day series by Seanan McGuire there are, I think, 14 books). https://www.goodreads.com/series/1716... I only rated the first book 3* but I am really liking this second one.

I'm really loving it. But I think you guys would find it too light.

[Joe]

Not sure that would be my cup of tea (the only Urban Fantasy like that I've really liked is Dresden Files), but I'd give it a shot :)

[Allan]

We kind of dropped this thread while New Crobuzon was going on, but should we initiate some plans for another series challenge? Or...because we have a mini-series The Once and Future King scheduled for May, do we push it out to June?

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I'm fine with May, but IIRC The Once and Future King books are quite long, so I don't think all our members can manage...

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I vote June, then.

[Rebecca]

Ok, not to muddy the waters here, but I'll add a vote for (attempting, some) of the Wheel of Time books. I wonder if the show will only cover the first book? I like to read books before watching the shows so I'm not just picturing the cast in my head and can make up my own ideas of how things look. I watched Expanse and have no desire to read the books now because the story feels old (somehow) to me. But I get that these are reeeaaallllyyy long, so I can just read them on the side at some point...in the next 20 years.

I see Gabi is working her way through Mistborn, as am I. I didn't feel like they were YA, but I see there is some discussion on that topic. We could just do the second tranche of books?
"Books #1-3 are the original trilogy
Books #4-7 are the Wax and Wayne series that take place 300 years later.
Books #8-10 are set to take place "in the early days of computer programming" ... the Era Three trilogy, just recently announced and confirmed, is still untitled." (from goodreads)

Ohhh but they haven't won a Hugo or Nebula (I think)...never mind. Hummm....

[Allan]

I think the first book of The Wheel of Time would make a good monthly read, but from previous discussion, I don’t think many have the stamina or desire to read 15,000 pages. However, dipping your toe into the first book could spark desire in a few, as it did for me (I read the whole thing 7-8 years ago, and I rate it very highly). We did read Vorkosigan though, so maybe.

As for The Expanse, I read it before the tv series and enjoyed it. The books have lots of pages but read quickly, and though it has its ups and downs, it’s a worthwhile read.

I’ve put Mistborn on my list but I’m pretty focused on H/N books (28 this year) so I won’t get to it for a bit. Maybe I’ll try to fit the first book in as a sampler.

[Kalin]

The Wheel of Time series in its entirety was nominated for a Best Hugo in 2014, so it's on the list of the group and can be nominated if we want to.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

This is what the entire list looks like.
It's about twice the length of Vorkosigan.
I don't mind getting cracking at it but it's a year long challenge, something to be aware of.

Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan Total pages: 11,537

The Eye of the World - 814pg HNBN
The Great Hunt - 705pg HNBN
The Dragon Reborn - 624pg HNBN
The Shadow Rising - 1007pg HNBN
The Fires of Heaven - 912pg HNBN
Lord of Chaos - 1011 pg HNBN
A Crown of Swords - 880pg HNBN
The Path of Daggers - 685pg HNBN
Winter's Heart - 780pg HNBN
Crossroads of Twilight - 704pg HNBN
Knife of Dreams - 860pg HNBN
The Gathering Storm - 783pg HNBN
Towers of Midnight - 863pg HNBN
A Memory of Light - 909pg HNBN

[Allan]

I believe the next monthly read we vote on, August, is Long Reads, so I would be willing to use an ENC to choose The Eye of the World for that month. Reading that one would give people a start, a nice sample of how it’s written and what it’s like. Those who want to can continue as an ongoing challenge. Vorkosigan was not easy either, but it wouldn’t be a challenge if it was easy. For what my view is worth, I highly recommend tackling the series. It’s an accomplishment to complete and I went away very satisfied with the ending.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I had a bad experience with Wheel of Time but that's most likely because I started in the middle and it is said that the early Russian translations (the first Ukrainian one is planned for this year) were lousy made. So, I guess it is nice to have the first volume as a monthly read and if it 'works' for enough members, start the challenge

[Gabi]

I have read the first books of the WoT series as well as the Expanse series. Both have the 'problem' for me that I can only get them via audible, that's why I stopped on both series. (I don't read that long series in eye-read form, cause I have extremely little time for real reading, while audibooks are with my literally the whole day).

I'd be up for both (I would start again since I already own the first audiobooks and don't remember that much of both series ... other than the first WoT follows the LotR, cause of that there was nothing surprising in it)

@Rebecca: yes, I'm just making my way through the Mistborn and loving it - but Sanderson never got attention on the Hugo lists (only one novella, if I remember correctly)

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Gabi wrote: "but Sanderson never got attention on the Hugo lists (only one novella, if I remember correctly)"

Which surprises me tbh, after all he is extremely popular, e.g. here on Goodreads and his works I've read (only two now) are quite good. I guess he has more ratings for his 2020 book than top-6 Hugo novel nominees. Gonna check if it is true

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Rhythm of War 50,952 ratings · 5,167 reviews

Hugos, alphabetically
Black Sun 12,416 ratings · 3,225 reviews
The City We Became 33,168 ratings · 6,210 reviews
Harrow the Ninth 19,237 ratings · 3,725 reviews
Network Effect 29,381 ratings · 3,727 reviews
Piranesi 54,545 ratings · 10,180 reviews
The Relentless Moon 4,145 ratings · 707 reviews

Okey, I was wrong and I'm pleasantly surprised by Piranesi result - I hopу it'll win H/N this year

Still 3 nominees with least votes have SUMMED UP rating smaller than Sanderson's book, which was out in the Fall

[Sarah]

For some reason I had the idea that Brando Sando's fanbase is generally younger, and perhaps doesn't overlap much with the WSFS membership demographic.

Of course I have no way to verify this.

[Gabi]

Sarah wrote: "For some reason I had the idea that Brando Sando's fanbase is generally younger, and perhaps doesn't overlap much with the WSFS membership demographic.

Of course I have no way to verify this."

I am *cough, cough* 54 years old ... and I'm part of his fanbase ... :D

[Allan]

I count you among that younger group, Gabi, youth is a state of mind!

Sanderson did a fantastic job of finishing the WoT. I couldn’t tell the difference, and the last book was a true marvel.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Allan wrote: "We did read Vorkosigan though, so maybe."

The reason we read Vorkosigan as a challenge is that so many of the books are nominated as annual Hugo/Nebs. And you might as well read them in order. The Wheel of Time books, however, are basically nominated as "oh, it's all one book." Vorkosigan is definitely not written as one book. She even tried to write them so they could each be read without the others, although I'm not sure she truly managed it.

I have read the first two or three of Wheel of Time as they came out and then quit. I remember I really liked the first, and then I was impatient with later volumes--I wanted something more to happen than was happening, I think. I quit with number three or four. Basically "Bored now."

So I will not be joining you for Wheel of Time, whatever you decide. Not for me. Have fun, though! I think it's a great way to knock that one off the list. And it could be an ongoing challenge. How about one volume every two or three months?

[Rebecca]

I like the idea of an ongoing challenge that spans a year or more, which (per others' experience) it was it actually takes to get through them. I might just set it as a goal of mine for the next 12 months or so, we'll see.

What other series are folks interested in if not Wheel of Time? Looks like our bookshelf of long series only has three: Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones (Ice & Fire), and Alex Benedict.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Actually, there are two long series by Jack McDevitt, each of which have about identical nominees in them. One is Alex Benedict (8 books). the other is The Academy (8 books). Both should probably be on there, but I am not sure I know how to fix the bookcase.

Art? Can you fix?

Another series I want to read is StarRigger by Jeffery Carver, but only one of the books in that series is nominated, Eternity's End. Actually, I researched the series right after this group was started and decided that it is not actually necessary to read the series, but I still want to.

[Allan]

I’ve read the first 3 of Alex Benedict and the first 2 of The Academy, and I have 4 more in paper. Pretty good, exciting adventure reads. Some people might find fault with the occasional assumption of convenience, but it’s not about hard science.

[Art, Stay home, stay safe.]

I'm really hyped about reading WoT. I already started purchasing the first four books of the series. Are we really doing it?

[Allan]

I don’t see why not. Book 1 will be the August “Long Read” and the suggested timing will be a book every other month, give or take, of course. We’ll have normal monthly reads so we don’t leave out those who aren’t partaking.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Art wrote: "I'm really hyped about reading WoT. I already started purchasing the first four books of the series. Are we really doing it?"

I will for sure read the first book

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Sounds like you guys have a great plan.

[Kalin]

I loved WOT when I was younger, not too sure if I'd commit to a full re-read since I have such a massive TBR shelf. But I'll think about it and cheer you on in the meantime.

[Allan]

Agreed, I don't plan to read along as it wasn't that long ago that I read it. I will cheer on the group and help keep the challenge organized.

[Gabi]

LOL! Who actually will read along and being cheered on ;D?

[Rebecca]

Art and I will have the most well staffed cheerleading squad ever! 🤣

[Gabi]

Rebecca, I'll join you (in reading that is :D)

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

If I have NOTHING else to read I might start the first one again. But probably not.

At least I know that there is an ENDING now. When I quit, I felt there would never be one.

Though I am not much for "traveling" books, anyway. Where the voyage/journey is the story? I felt as if that's what the books I read were. They were NEVER going to get to the end. Of course, this is a recollection from when the books were new and may be wrong.