Tournament of Books discussion
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2015 Books
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2015 ToB Competition Discussion
Poingu wrote: "I agree Brief History is very likely to win but I didn't enjoy reading it personally--it exhausted me."
That is a perfect description of my feelings about Brief History. I appreciated the author's talent in creating a complex epic novel. But I did not enjoy the experience of reading (listening to) it.
That is a perfect description of my feelings about Brief History. I appreciated the author's talent in creating a complex epic novel. But I did not enjoy the experience of reading (listening to) it.
Have you filled out your brackets yet? I've never done this part before. Does the zombie pick come from the side it's listed with or is it random? In other words, does zombie pick 1 come from the left side and zombie 2 from the right or could they both be from the right side?
Sherri wrote: "Have you filled out your brackets yet? I've never done this part before. Does the zombie pick come from the side it's listed with or is it random? In other words, does zombie pick 1 come from the l..."Please correct me if this is wrong, but I believe it's the top 2 vote getters from all the eliminated books. So, there could be 2 zombies from the same side of the bracket. I was wondering how they assign the zombies. Under my bracket predictions, two books possibly compete in back to back rounds (Brief History and All the Light).
Beth wrote: "Sherri wrote: "Have you filled out your brackets yet? I've never done this part before. Does the zombie pick come from the side it's listed with or is it random? In other words, does zombie pick 1 ..."Ok that makes more sense than the way I was looking at it and it makes the brackets more fun. Thanks Beth.
Zombies can come from anywhere. They are the two books with the most Zombie votes, so could both come from one "side."In pairing Zombies, they try to avoid rematches, but this is not always possible. (At least once, and maybe twice, in the past 3-4 years, both Zombies had already been matched with a traditional semifinalist. I think they avoided pairings that would result in a back-to-back matchup of a Zombie and a semifinalist.)
Zombies can come from anywhere. They are the two books with the most Zombie votes, so could both come from one "side."In pairing Zombies, they try to avoid rematches, but this is not always possible. (At least once, and maybe twice, in the past 3-4 years, both Zombies had already been matched with a traditional semifinalist. I think they avoided pairings that would result in a back-to-back matchup of a Zombie and a semifinalist.)
Last year, for instance, the Zombies were Life After Life and The Goldfinch, both of which had previously lost to The People in the Trees, the former in Round 1 and the latter in Round 2. They matched Life After Life against The People because their prior match was more remote than the Goldfinch/People prior.
Hello all, I've mostly been a lurker here but now that I've read all the ToB books I'm going to this year (about half) I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...My 2015 favorite is 'All the Birds, Singing.' I hadn't heard much excitement about this one when I picked it up and was very pleasantly surprised--the voice of the narrator and the way the author played with time and plot development drew me in and I couldn't put it down, and stayed up very late a couple nights in a row to read it all.
Someone earlier in this discussion brought up the apparent "theme" this year of marginalized women. I think there's two ways that women can appear marginalized in literature: sometimes women characters are marginalized by not being fully developed, not having a strong voice, not being granted agency that is granted to male characters, etc. That is definitely cause for concern and criticism. But the other way "marginalized women" can appear in literature is as women marginalized by the society depicted in the story, but who are strong and agentive characters. I would say this is probably the case for *most* strong female characters, because being or feeling on the margins of society and dealing with that situation constitutes, I think, the plots of most narratives, in one way or another! In fact, it's hard for me to think of an interesting literary character (male or female) who is living comfortably within the confines of mainstream society--I would say even Jane Austen's characters are feeling somewhat "marginalized" by not being able to find husbands quickly enough, or whatever. (Of course, that is a somewhat facetious observation, as that sort of "marginalization" is obviously really different from that of an abuse or trauma survivor...) But my point is, in that sense, the presence of many "marginalized" women in this year's books signifies the presence of female characters and voices, period, and that, I think, is a good thing. The narrator of 'All the Birds, Singing' is a prime example of a female character who has experienced marginalization but is well-developed, with deep agency and a strong voice.
I also really liked 'Adam.' Not my favorite book of the year or anything, but I found it very engaging--I had a visceral feeling of "this is not going to end well" that kept me reading--and I was just really into the existence of a young adult novel on the subject matter. I'm sure I'm not the first one to feel this way or say this, but when I was a young adult (and I'm only 29 now) even growing up in an urban, liberal atmosphere, transgender issues were totally outside of my realm of awareness. As previous generations have contended with a rising popular awareness of LGB issues (which I feel like was pretty much out there in the realm of the known by the time I reached an adult level of consciousness), the current generation of young adults is maybe the first to grow up with transgender people being widely represented in news and media--at least that's my sense. And even though the first attempts to portray these kinds of things in literature/film/tv are often highly criticized for essentializing, generalizing, or getting stuff wrong--especially in retrospect--I just think it's great that a young adult novel is attempting to delve into this. Young adults who are reading books like 'Adam' certainly know a lot more about transgender issues than I did growing up!
My least favorite book out of the ones I read was 'Silence Once Begun.' I found the writing to be really stilted and affected, like it was trying to sound like it had been translated from Japanese in this vaguely Murakami way. Maybe some of it had been translated (it was unclear to me how much of the story was true and whether primary documents had been used in writing it), but I mean, even the intermediary narrations in the author's voice were written in this way!! I think that's what kept the whole thing at an emotional distance, and, for me, drove me crazy pretty much throughout. Also, plenty of books (Atonement, The Alexandria Quartet) and films (Rashomon being the prime example that comes to mind) have raised the idea that one event can be viewed different ways by the different people involved, without having multiple of the characters explicitly say, "Looks like everybody involved has a different idea of what happened!!" Yes... I get it.
The 2 books I'm most upset to NOT see in the ToB this year are 'All My Puny Sorrows' (which has already gotten its share of shoutouts here but seriously everyone go read it) and '10:04' by Ben Lerner. Perhaps I am swayed by being, like the author/narrator, a 30-ish academic living in NYC (and I'm also not a priori against the genre of young-ish white men ruminating about their own experiences, so if you are, stay away!)--but I think Lerner's writing is hilarious and beautiful. (Just thought I'd throw that in since I have gathered many great recommendations for non-ToB books here..!)
Just for the record and, I suppose, a frame of reference for my opinions: I still think 'The Goldfinch' should have won last year, hands down :).
emily wrote: "Hello all, I've mostly been a lurker here but now that I've read all the ToB books I'm going to this year (about half) I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...My 2015 favorite is 'All the Birds, Singin..."
Wow, that was really long, sorry!!
All the Birds, Singing' is a prime example of a female character who has experienced marginalization but is well-developed, with deep agency and a strong voice.I cosign on this, Emily! I've been dismayed to read characterizations of Jake as another victim because, after all, she's also a perpetrator or, at the very least, an active participant in even the negative aspects of her story. All the Birds reads to me like a traditional male narrative that swaps in a woman as the hero living on the fringe and in need of reintegration. It's also my favorite book of the tourney.
emily wrote: "Hello all, I've mostly been a lurker here but now that I've read all the ToB books I'm going to this year (about half) I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...My 2015 favorite is 'All the Birds, Singin..."
Thanks for writing this, Emily. I really enjoyed your post, -especially-because I had opposite feelings on every book you mentioned. I totally get everything you wrote, though. This Goodreads group and also the TOB itself both help me to be more thoughtful about my reactions and to become a better reader too I suppose.
Poingu wrote: "Thanks for writing this, Emily. I really enjoyed your post, -especially-because I had opposite feelings on every book you mentioned..."Yes! My favorite part of this is the intelligent, thoughtful, *totally opposite* opinions on all of these books. It really makes you realize that your opinions are just that, opinions...
totally agree with you, emily and poingu. it's so wonderful to read the variety of opinions on the books, and in such a respectful atmosphere. the thoughtfulness towards one another is a rarity online, that's for sure. i certainly find that even if i don't share an opinion on a book, hearing other thoughts and ideas helps me appreciate why a work has resonated well for others and not with me. and even if i have not liked a work, i truly enjoy hearing that other readers have been moved by, or engrossed with, a book that was a great read for them.
I agree about appreciating the respectful tone discussions take in this forum. On that note, I will state for the record without fear of retribution, my dislike of the Ferrante trio. The themes are interesting to me, but the writing leaves me cold. I do not know if I'm missing something, or if this particular style of writing or translation fails to click for me. I'm also curious about the decision to include the third book in a trilogy. I realize some people here have greatly enjoyed all three books. I also acknowledge I have not been forced to read any of the books. Perhaps I should have just gone straight to book three and cut my losses. Am I alone on this?
Emily - Thanks for all you wrote. It helped me clarify some of my feelings about these books. It is always good to hear what others are thinking.
Beth wrote: "I agree about appreciating the respectful tone discussions take in this forum. On that note, I will state for the record without fear of retribution, my dislike of the Ferrante trio. The themes ar..."are you on book one, beth? i found it took me most of the first novel to get into it all. i had some issues with the style of language and wasn't sure if it was a reflection of the dialect, or translation issues. this settled down for me a lot in books two and three and they have been my stand-out reads of 2015, so far. i don't think book three works well as a stand-alone. so much context is lost by not having the other two read prior to it. in the other tournament group (the rooster), this seems to be the consensus from those who have tackled all three. many of us have been wondering about its chances as the third in the series. its an odd inclusion, for sure. while i would be thrilled to see it win, i don't think it likely. i am sorry it isn't going so well for you.
I'm on book 3 Jennifer. I thought I should read all 3 if I had the time. It's just not working for me. I will read to the end, as I want to be able to say I read every entry. For me, the themes of the novels and the general plot are very interesting, I just can't connect with the writing. Thanks for the feedback.
ah. i wondered if you were struggling with book one. such a bummer it hasn't worked out for you. i get it though - it's not a series i would blanket recommend to everyone.
Heads-up. Just seeing that Marlon James is on Seth Meyers tonight (Tuesday, 3/3 - tho sure available online at some point). Reading Brief History of Seven Killings right now. Challenging book, but dazzling. Glad got around to it (had planned to wait-see).
Tim wrote: "I'm beginning to think I understood Lassie better than I do a couple of these guys."Please don't say things like this. It makes you sound ignorant and is more than a little offensive.
Beth wrote: "I agree about appreciating the respectful tone discussions take in this forum. On that note, I will state for the record without fear of retribution, my dislike of the Ferrante trio. The themes ar..."Beth, I think it would be so interesting to chart the likes and dislikes of the readers in this group and see if there are patterns. For example, if you loved An Untamed State you probably won't like the Ferrante series, or if you loved Dept. of Speculation, you didn't like All the Birds, Singing. I'm just making those up, but I would love to see if there are commonalities like this in how we react to books in the tournament.
Sheri, that's an interesting idea. The examples you gave intrigue me I really liked An Untamed State, same for All the Birds Singing. I was lukewarm on Department of Speculation. So can you predict what I thought of Brief History or The Bone Clocks?
Beth wrote: "Sheri, that's an interesting idea. The examples you gave intrigue me I really liked An Untamed State, same for All the Birds Singing. I was lukewarm on Department of Speculation. So can you predi..."Ha - I'm going to guess A Brief History, Beth. I love the Ferrante series and Dept of Speculation was one of my favorite books last year. An Untamed State and All the Birds are my only 2 star ratings from this set, and I really liked The Bone Clocks.. I've been avoiding A Brief History even though it's almost due back to the library. I think we're on to something here :).
Sherri wrote: "I think we're on to something here :). "
We probably each have broad predictable preferences but golly, I also have to say that my own take on books depends a lot on when in life I've read them. One of my favorite books at 21 became even more a favorite at 40 and then I disliked it very much at 50 when I read it again (btw that was Falconer by John Cheever).
And even more disconcertingly, I think my reception of a given book is affected by how I feel that week, what else is going on, and how much time I think I have to read. Long books suffer unless I'm on vacation. That makes no objective sense--I could just take longer to read a given book vs. reading two short books in the time I have. And my feeling about a book can be affected by many other things that have nothing to do with the book.
I just read a book that I loved that I think at -any- other time of my life I would have thought was really bad--The Finkler Question. I had to be exactly as old as I am to enjoy it. It helped also to have a father the age of one of the characters.
Coming face to face with my weird biases and trying to overcome or at least understand them has been a terrific side effect of this TOB group for me.
Sherri wrote: "Beth, I think it would be so interesting to chart the likes and dislikes of the readers in this group and see if there are patterns..."i have only read 8 (10, if include first 2 of Elena Ferrante's books) the books. these are my ratings:
5-stars:
* Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay
4 ½-stars:
* All the Light We Cannot See
3-stars:
* Everything I Never Told You
2 ½-stars:
* The Bone Clocks
2-stars:
* All the Birds, Singing
* Station Eleven
* Dept. of Speculation
* The Paying Guests
On Book 13 here... here's my three-tier take. Not sure it will help/hinder the "like this, dislike that" theory!Top Tier:
Station Eleven, All The Light, Dept of Speculation (1/3 thru, but guessing Brief History will join this group)
Middle Tier:
Annihilation, Paying Guests, All the Birds, Silence Once Begun, Adam
Bottom Tier:
Brave Man, Untamed State, Everything I Never, Redeployment
Ed wrote: "On Book 13 here... here's my three-tier take. Not sure it will help/hinder the "like this, dislike that" theory!Top Tier:
Station Eleven, All The Light, Dept of Speculation (1/3 thru, but guessin..."
Ed, my list matches up with yours fairly well. I think I"m at 13 too. I have to 4 tiers though:
Loved: All the Light, Dept of Speculation, Those who Leave, Station Eleven
Really liked: Annihilation, A Brave Man, The Bone Clocks
Ok: Silence One Begun, Adam, Paying Guests, Redeployment
Disliked: All the Birds, An Untamed State
Haven't read: A Brief History, Everything I Never Told You, Wittgenstein
I'm on my 11th book (13 if you include the first two in the Ferrante series.) Top Tier: Those Who Leave, Station Eleven, All the Light, Brief History*
2nd Tier: Everything I Never Told You, Dept of Speculation, Brave Man**, Annihilation
3rd Tier: Silence Once Begun
4th Tier: Wittgenstein Jr, Adam
Currently reading Bone Clocks (predict 2nd or 3rd Tier)
* Closely read first half - skimmed 2nd half. Opinion: Brilliant but hard. Can already predict TOB Commentariat will compel me to re-read the 2nd half of this novel!
** Started months ago and really liked it. Unfortunately it was due back at the library. Purchased a copy and this is slated to become my 12th book of the tourney.
I am reading the last 2 of the 16 now. I am far enough in to know their future ratings. Using the tier system, and listing in order of my ranking:1st Tier: A Brief History, Station Eleven, An Untamed State, The Bone Clocks, All the Birds Singing
2nd tier: Annihilation, Everything I Never Told You, All the LIght We Cannot See, The Paying Guests, Redeployment, Adam
3rd Tier: Department of Speculation, Silence Once Begun, Wittgenstein Jr., Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay
Btw, none of the books received 5 star ratings from me, although Brief History came very close. All my top tier were 4 star ratings which is very good for me.
I finally got around to posting my tournament picks: 2015 TOB PicksI went super OCD and broke it down with wants/thinks depending on who was judging.
AmberBug wrote: "I finally got around to posting my tournament picks: 2015 TOB PicksI went super OCD and broke it down with wants/thinks depending on who was judging."
So who are you picking to win it all?
I have a question about the zombies...there are 2 correct? And can they come from any of the match-ups?
Janet wrote: "I have a question about the zombies...there are 2 correct? And can they come from any of the match-ups?"The top two vote getters return as zombies. Does not matter what side of bracket they started on.
Janet... I was hoping to avoid that question!!!!! I really want the final to be between "Untamed State" and "Station Eleven" but I will have to go with want "Station Eleven" but think "Brief History".So hard to speculate!!
Beth wrote: "Janet wrote: "I have a question about the zombies...there are 2 correct? And can they come from any of the match-ups?"The top two vote getters return as zombies. Does not matter what side of br..."
OK, thanks, that's what I was wondering if they could come from either side.
My ranking is somewhat similar to yours, Karen:Top Tier: Those Who Leave*, Station Eleven, All the Light, Brief History, All the Birds, Untamed State
2nd Tier: Everything I Never Told You, Dept of Speculation, Annihilation, Bone Clocks
3rd Tier: Adam, Paying Guests, Redeployment**
4th Tier: Wittgenstein Jr, Brave Man, Silence Once Begun
*I've finished My Brilliant Friend and just started The Story of a New Name and, based on what I've read so far, I'm willing to bet Those Who Stay will be in my top tier
**I only read two of the stories and they were excellent but I don't care for short story collections or war stories so I'm done with this one
Topher wrote: "Tim wrote: "I'm beginning to think I understood Lassie better than I do a couple of these guys."Please don't say things like this. It makes you sound ignorant and is more than a little offensive."
And there goes the collegial nature of our discussions here.
AmberBug wrote: "I finally got around to posting my tournament picks: 2015 TOB PicksI went super OCD and broke it down with wants/thinks depending on who was judging."
Amberbug, I did the same super OCD thing but I caught myself cheating a little, the same way as when I'm playing chess with myself and start to root for one side to win. Annihilation did way better in my tourney than it probably will, even in my "think will win" brackets. I admire your discipline.
Poingu wrote: "AmberBug wrote: "I finally got around to posting my tournament picks: 2015 TOB PicksI went super OCD and broke it down with wants/thinks depending on who was judging."
Amberbug, I did the same s..."
Yes! I know exactly what you mean. It was so hard to determine what SOMEONE else would judge!! I kept thinking, "How could they not love this?", but clearly looking at the WIDE range of opinions on here... we should all know better. :)
I love everyone's top rankings, and the tiers are a great idea! Keep 'em coming! Not much has really blown me away, but relative to each other, here's my contribution. Top Tier (Great): Brief History, All the Light, Brave Man, Untamed State, Redeployment
2nd Tier (Ok-Good): Bone Clocks, Dept. of Speculation, Silence Once Begun, Adam
3rd Tier (COULDN'T WAIT TO FINISH): Annihilation, Station Eleven, Everything I Never Told You
Haven't Read Yet: All the Birds, Paying Guests, Wittgenstein, Those Who Leave
Tier 1: Annihilation, Wittgenstein Jr.Tier 2: Brief History, Dept of Speculation, Those Who Leave
Tier 3: Untamed State, Redeployment
Tier 4: Paying Guests, Everything I Never
In Progress: All the Light (and I'm finding it really, really, really good, so depending on how it progresses, this might be a Tier 1 addition)
I'd Still Like To Try: All the Birds, Silence, Bone Clocks
Abandoned: Station Eleven, Adam, Brave Man
(For others who enjoy ranking but haven't yet seen it, someone set up a Listopia for the TOB shortlist here!)
I've little hope of my favorites making it out of the first round; I think Annhilation has a fighting chance, I'm just sad that it has to be against Dept--though the love-for-Wittgenstein corner definitely feels lonely over here. :) Oh, and I'm worried that Brief History will go the way of The Luminaries last year, but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.
The most recent book I finished was The Paying Guests, which I liked but didn't love. There was some fine writing and some fascinating themes, and I loved the ending, but it was a rocky and disjointed experience to read. I think it'll be interesting to read verdicts about it, though, because it felt ambitious even when it didn't fulfill those ambitions, and I want to hear what other readers got out of it.
Actually, I'm just excited to read ALL the verdicts.
13/16 read; here's my list:Top Tier (favorites):
A Brief History, Bone Clocks, An Untamed State, Redeployment, All the Light We Cannot See
2nd Tier (enjoyed):
Station Eleven, Annihilation, All the Birds Singing, Silence Once Begun, Dept of Speculation
3rd Tier (ok):
A Brave Man...,Everything I Never Told You, The Paying Guests
Not read:
Wittgenstein Jr, Adam, Those Who Leave
Btw, All the Birds Singing is B&N's Discover New Writers(?) Award Winner
In these last days I decided to try REDEPLOYMENT. Thanks, Janet, for recommending "Money as a Weapons System," (message 299). It was very interesting and well-written. "Psychological Operations" was also interesting, but began better than it ended. The rest, I felt, was ordinary. As for stories about soldiers coming home from Iraq, I recommend "Home" from George Saunders TENTH OF DECEMBER. My tier one would include: ALL THE BIRDS, SINGING, STATION 11, AND BONE CLOCKS. Tier two: DEPT. OF SPECULATION, EVERYTHING I NEVER TOLD YOU, ALL THE LIGHT WE CANNOT SEE. Tier three: REDEPLOYMENT, ANNIHILATION. Not my cup of tea: SILENCE ONCE BEGUN, WITTGENSTEIN JR. Abandoned: UNTAMED STATE, BRAVE MAN SEVEN STOREYS TALL. Not interested in reading: PAYING GUESTS, ADAM. I plan to read BRIEF HISTORY OF SEVEN KILLINGS after the tournament. I can't attempt a book of that length and complexity in so short a time. I learned that lesson with ORPHAN MASTER'S SON which speed-reading probably ruined for me. I've been following the Tournament since 2009 and it has introduced me to some of my favorite books. This year, not so much. But I have enjoyed following the discussions. It is good to find so many book fanatics.
Top Tier An Untamed StateSecond Tier Station Eleven, Silence Once Begun, Redeployment, Dept of Speculation
Third Tier All the Light, All the Birds, Everything I Never Told You
DNF The Bone Clocks
Partially Read and Still Hope to Finish (sometime) Annihilation, Brief History, Brave Man
Have Not Read but Want to The Paying Guests, Those Who Leave
No Interest in Reading Adam, Wittgenstein Jr.
Deborah wrote: "Topher wrote: "Tim wrote: Please don't say things like this. It makes you sound ignorant and is more than a little offensive."And there goes the collegial nature of our discussions here.
Sorry, I can't be collegial with someone who compares Jamaican patois with the barking of a dog.
Sorry, I can't be collegial with someone who compares Jamaican patois with the barking of a dog.
FIAMO (flag it and move on)
Just devoured the amuse-bouche served up by The Morning News this morning. Somehow I picked up some TOB vibes last night when I plucked Elliot Holt's "You Are One of Them" off of our library's shelves and added it to the staff picks display. I haven't read anything by Laura van den Berg but have already ordered her collection of short stories, "There Will Be No More Good Nights Without Good Nights." Adding two more voices to the daily commentary is an interesting twist. Welcome Elliot and Laura!
Tier 1: An Untamed State, Station Eleven, Dept of SpeculationTier 2: Annihilation, Redeployment, All the Light We Cannot See, Everything I Never Told You
Tier 3: The Paying Guests, Silence Once Begun
Did not finish: A Brief History of Seven Killings
Haven't read the rest yet. Since last year I tried reading The Good Lord Bird, got exasperated with it and then gave up, I'm predicting that A Brief History of Seven Killings will win this year. :-)
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Tournament of Books
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Dan, is this your personal ranking, or how you think they will do in the tournament? For me at least these are very different things. I agree Brief History is very likely to win but I didn't enjoy reading it personally--it exhausted me.