February 2020 - Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI

[Peggy]

One of the group reads for February is Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI by David Grann

Please discuss the book in this thread.

Jayme will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have read the book before or during February 2020.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

A note on discussion: Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc.

In addition to this, the group reads are meant to be a "read along" so it is preferable that you discuss the book as you read rather than wait until you've finished the book.

And finally, discussion is not about just listing your thoughts. Please interact with the other group members, comment on their thoughts, and if they comment on yours, respond to them. This is what makes a good book discussion!

You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread.

Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions. See our spoiler policy
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

[Jayme, Moderator]

I am planning on starting this today. I was googling information about the book/story and discovered that Martin Scorsese the film director was spotted in Osage County, Oklahoma, recently because his next project will be making a movie based on the book and they will start filming in March. The movie will star Robert De Niro and Leonardo DiCaprio.
Now I really want to read this book!

[Kristie, Moderator]

That's excellent, Jayme! I bet it will be a good movie.

I planned to read this last year and had to return it to the library unread. This is the perfect excuse to read it. There is still a long wait for the audio, but I was able to get a physical copy. I'm not sure if I'll have time to read another physical book this month, but I'll try. I think one will be really interesting.

[Lilisa]

I’m hoping to join in the discussion with a re-read - usually hard to do re-reads since there are so many great books, but the last couple of months at YLTO have helped me do that with the selection of monthly reads. (view spoiler)[This was a great read! :-) P.S. I hate that GR identifies a previous rating when one is currently re-reading a book though — it’s a sure giveaway!<\> (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

I started the book and am really enjoying how it is written. Sometimes with nonfiction the writing can seem rather lifeless and dry, but Grann, the author, has successfully blended the facts, suspense, and emotions of the events to make the story very readable. Grann's description of the people is very detailed and you have a sense of who they really were - (view spoiler)[ quite a cast of interesting and colorful characters. (hide spoiler)]

Through chapter 3 - (view spoiler)[ I had absolutely no idea how wealthy the Osage tribe became because of the discovery of oil on their land. I was aware of other tribes who were removed from their land because of oil and thought that all tribes were removed. The idea that they would have to pay an equivalent of $80,000 in today's prices for a funereal because of price gouging was staggering. I think in the beginning chapters Grann does a great job showing that even though the Osage tribe members were wealthy they were still treated poorly and considered "second class citizens."
I like Mollie and am crossing my fingers that nothing happens to her. <'spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

[Renee]

Jamey I swear this book has already been a movie. I
I think DiCaprio would be amazing in a movie like this. I keep feeling I have already heard this story. It is very familiar. Does anyone know if it has been a movie or television documentery?

Jayme wrote: "I am planning on starting this today. I was googling information about the book/story and discovered that Martin Scorsese the film director was spotted in Osage County, Oklahoma, recently because h..."

I

[Lucy]

I have the audiobook on hold with my library, should have it mid month.

[Jayme, Moderator]

Renee wrote: "Jamey I swear this book has already been a movie. I
I think DiCaprio would be amazing in a movie like this. I keep feeling I have already heard this story. It is very familiar. Does anyone know if..."

I just did a quick google search and it looks like Sherwood Ball did a documentary for Amazon Prime in 2017, but it says that it is currently unavailable. I'm going to check later and see if I can pull it up on my Amazon Prime TV. Henry's upgrading our antenna right now, so connection is down : (

Update: It is currently not available on prime video.

[Jayme, Moderator]

To chapter 6 - This is just a chilling story. (view spoiler)[ I find it interesting and disturbing that with the number of suspicious Osage tribe members' deaths and murders the country doesn't really take notice until a white oilman who sympathized with the Osage is brutality murdered.
I really like how Grann is weaving the story line of the murders with history. I didn't know anything about the reasons behind the formation of the Pinkerton detectives and/or early forensics in our country. I also was intrigued with how the Osage Indians were able to keep their mineral rights and became wealthy. (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

A friend of mine who has read this book told me that I should also read something light and fun at the same time that I was reading this book. I thought that was a little extreme until I finished chapter 7. (view spoiler)[I am furious. How could the government treat the Osage people that way and who is responsible for the murders? My money is that the Shoun brothers (doctors) are involved and that they are poisoning Mollie. (hide spoiler)] I'm off to read Love & Gelato to take my mind off of this book.

[Jannene]

This is an amazing book. I loved it. I read it at work as a book club read. The entire group loved the book and couldn’t wait until the movie comes out.

[Cherie]

I just downloaded an ebook copy from my library. I cannot wait to start. I also have The End of the Affair to read along with it, and Daisy Jones & The Six to listen to.

[Cherie]

I’ve finished reading chapters 1-3. I agree with Jayme that it is easy to read and definitely filled with interesting information, names and facts from the time. On a side note though, it feels all jumbled up with western lore from an earlier time than the 1920s. I have read other stories that felt like this. I am not saying it is bad, just that I have to keep reminding myself that it is the early 20th century and prohibition too.

The deaths are definitely awful (view spoiler)[ and if Lizzie and potentially the younger sister had been poisoned- even more so. The information about how the inquest had been carried out was amazing. The first and then second autopsy were gruesome. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I had to close my first post. The app seems to be forcing a shorter comment length in the posts now. (The I’m posting on my iPod.)

I want to know why the author deemed Kansas City as “incandescent”.

[Jayme, Moderator]

@Jannene - I totally agree. I think this book will end up in my top 5 for the year.

@Cherie - I agree about getting the time mixed up a little while the author was explaining the history of the Osage. I understand why he did it, but I had to keep putting images of flappers, cars, and bootleggers in my head to keep bringing me back to the 1920's. Now that I'm halfway through the book I am definitely in the 20's.

[Jayme, Moderator]

I want to know why the author deemed Kansas City as “incandescent”."

I did not catch that, but after a little google research I discovered that there was a huge explosion at the Kansas City Gas, Light & Coke Company in 1885 (they mostly manufactured gas for gas lamps/street lights) which knocked out all the street lights. Because of the fire they were one of the first cities to switch to all incandescent electric lights for outdoor street lights.

[Renee]

Thank you Jayme for the Kansas city info. I found it fascinating. (view spoiler)[ I was horrified at the way the inquest was carried out. I think I have lived my life in a bubble. I had always thought people were treated fairly. I had a tough time reading that part. The whole book is giving me the creeps. It is almost as if the Osage are lower then cockroaches. How could people treat others that way? (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

I have not been able to put this book down.
To chapter 19 (view spoiler)[ What a horrible man Hale is. How could he mastermind the killing of people in his own family? He must truly be evil and really believe that he won't be found guilty. And his nephew Ernest Buckhart? This is his wife and mother to his kids that is slowly being poisoned!! What a spineless man to be controlled by Hale so completely. I'm not sure how this is going to end, but I have a feeling that Hale might get away with it.

And just a side comment. I can't believe all the lawlessness in the 1920's. Maybe that element of society is alive and well and I am blissfully sheltered. (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

Renee wrote: "Thank you Jayme for the Kansas city info. I found it fascinating. [spoilers removed]"

I know. I can't believe that people were treated like that.

[Cherie]

Jayme wrote: "
I want to know why the author deemed Kansas City as “incandescent”."

I did not catch that, but after a little google research I discovered that there was a huge explosion at the Kansas City Gas, ..."


Good on ya, Jayme! I did a little searching, but I did not come up with anything. Looks like it was a "tongue-in-cheek" kind of play on words that the author threw in to make people curious. I like that! Thank you so much for finding that out.

[Cherie]

Renee wrote: "Thank you Jayme for the Kansas city info. I found it fascinating. [spoilers removed]"

I have to agree with your spoiler, Renee. It is hard for me to imagine too, but we all know it is too true.

[Jayme, Moderator]

I finished the book last night. This really was a riveting and chilling tale. (view spoiler)[I thought it ironic that Tom White ended up being the warden of the prison where Hale and Ramsey were incarcerated. I still can't get over the fact that Hale seemed to feel no remorse and was still trying to get headrights while still in prison.
I also think that the government was complicit in the crimes against the Osage people. The government enforced the guardianship program which powerful white men took advantage of for their own greed and profit.
But what is more shocking is that the government and big business are still trying to screw the Osage people - first with oil fields and now with wind farms. This book was very good, but deeply troubling. (hide spoiler)]

[Renee]

I apologize if this posted already. My hands are bad today. I did something that made all I had written vanish. I looked and don't think I posted. I also wish I was saying something worth reading twice.

I am having a hard time reading this. I find the behavior of the government and Hale to be more repulsive then a horror novel(view spoiler)[I find it so nasty to slowly poison your family. Hale comes off like a cult leader with his ability to get people to do what he wants. He is like a real life bond villi an . He convinces his henchmen to do his dirty work while plotting world wide domination. (hide spoiler)]

[Renee]

I just thought of something. I watch a lot of crime drama. It has always annoyed me when the FBI comes in and takes over the case. I think this book is giving me some understanding of this. What do you think?

[Jayme, Moderator]

Renee wrote: "I just thought of something. I watch a lot of crime drama. It has always annoyed me when the FBI comes in and takes over the case. I think this book is giving me some understanding of this. What do..."

I din't know anything about the beginnings of the FBI, so I think this book gave a pretty good overview.
From what I understand crimes that specifically fall under the FBI are those in which a criminal crossed state lines, violations of federal controlled substance laws, and other violations of federal laws. Today their focus is on terrorism and cyber crimes. I was googling info (love Google) and it said that the FBI is now the largest law enforcement agency in the world.

[Cherie]

I am currently reading chapter 4 (view spoiler)[I cannot believe that the Osage had to buy their land when they were forced to move out of Kansas. How can settlers move into the reservation? It dumbfounds me, that with all of the land available, that people like Hale would want to move onto the Indian land, if it was not farmable. Re Mollie - I just cannot imagine being taken from my family and be forced to go to a school days away from where they were at only seven years old. The tribal negotiations for the land and mineral rights were interesting. I had never heard of any of this. I cannot believe they thought the oil was beautiful as it coated the earth and flowers. I remember driving out to Signal Hill in Long Beach, California, when I was a young girl, with my grandfather in the mid and late 1950s. All you could see were oil derricks and black earth. Nothing grew there at all - as far as you could see. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

chapter 5-8 (view spoiler)[ I do not think I ever really knew where "private eye" came from, but if it was part of the Pinkerton logo, I can understand. @names - I recognize some of the big old time oil company names in these chapters on the history of the oil drilling. Sinclair and Phillips, especially. I do not think I knew that J. Paul Getty made his money in oil. @The congressmen bitching over #319.05 for a butcher bill. I cannot even believe they could believe they had the right to be involved in this kind of activity. Seems like they should be looking at the oil-men's spending, but I guess that is how most of them got into office in those days. @Bill Smith - the description of his injuries was just totally gruesome! @Tom White - He seems like a good guy to be assigned to the task of finding out who is killing the people! (hide spoiler)]

[Naomi]

So this is my first time doing a group based challenge and I’m really looking forward to it. I have just reserved the book at my library and will hopefully be picking it up tomorrow. I have Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood on the go at the moment as well for my work book club; but I have a feeling I’m going to like this book more - i am a true crime fan.

[Jayme, Moderator]

@ Naomi - welcome to the group chat. If you like true crime, this is your book!

@ Cherie - It is mind boggling how the Osage were treated and that people thought it was OK - crazy!

[Cherie]

I am reading chapter 12 @ 38% (view spoiler)[ Pike just admitted that Hale hired him to manufacture evidence and to generate false witnesses - to "shape an alibi" for Bryan Burkhart. Did they just divulge that William Hale is behind all of the killings??? (hide spoiler)]

@ ch 9-11 (view spoiler)[ I like the way White and his team have methodically gone over all of the evidence and information and eliminated things, even with the Sherlock Holmes references, it seems like how it should have been done "correctly". I do not think I have ever heard of Alphonse Bertillon. (hide spoiler)]

[Jannene]

Renee wrote: "I just thought of something. I watch a lot of crime drama. It has always annoyed me when the FBI comes in and takes over the case. I think this book is giving me some understanding of this. What do..."

I’m not sure how the book could give you an understanding since this is when they were initially created. The local law enforcement were of no help then (in this particular case) which is why they created the FBI. I am not saying it doesn’t happen, as I am sure it does but at the same time I think in this case it was totally justified don’t you? I was proud of the fact that someone finally thought something was wrong and created a force to look into it.

[Cherie]

@ Jannene - I do not think they created the FBI because of this case. They existed before they became involved in the Osage Murders - see chapter 8. (view spoiler)[ I believe this story is meant to point out how they were successful, where the other "law enforcement" folks and private detectives were not - for reasons being pointed out in the book. I am not finished with the story to say for sure, but that is what I am coming to believe. (hide spoiler)]

@Renee - did you mean this book is allowing you to understand why the FBI came in and took over this case, so you are not annoyed with them?

[Cherie]

I’m finished up to chapter 18

@ Tom White (view spoiler)[ the background story in him and his family was interesting. I can’t imagine living next door to a jail. (hide spoiler)]

@ Hoover (view spoiler)[ creepy guy! (hide spoiler)]

@ deaths (view spoiler)[ the number just keeps going up! Amazing and awful (hide spoiler)]

@FBI (view spoiler)[ they don’t call it the FBI, just Bureau of Investigation or Hoover’s bureau in the story. The members are just called agents. Now, I wonder when it becomes Federal Bureau of Investigation! (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

Jannene wrote: "Renee wrote: "I just thought of something. I watch a lot of crime drama. It has always annoyed me when the FBI comes in and takes over the case. I think this book is giving me some understanding of..."

The FBI was actually created in 1908 when Theodore Roosevelt was president. It was initially created to conduct investigations for the Department of Justice who at the time needed to investigate corruption within the federal court system. In its first 15 years or so it investigated mostly white-collar and civil rights cases. When World War 1 hit the FBI was put in the counter-spy business to enforce the Espionage Act. When the Bolshevik Revolution happened in Russia in 1917 they were then tasked to investigate possible communist sympathizers here in the states during the Red Scare. When Prohibition started in 1920 they were then tasked with stopping bootleggers who smuggled alcohol across state borders. It was during this time that the FBI was given the Osage murder cases and began looking into the murders because the murders were taken place on federal/reservation land otherwise it would have stayed a state case.

I love delving into the history of something. The subject I taught was American History from 1865 to present day and it's interesting to see how the formation and beginning of the FBI was woven into what I taught.

This was the reason I ended up rating the book a 4 instead of a 5. I think the title and some of the info is a bit misleading.

[Jayme, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "I’m finished up to chapter 18

@ Tom White [spoilers removed]

]"
@FBI (view spoiler)[ March 22, 1935 (hide spoiler)]
@deaths(view spoiler)[ the number is incredible! No place was safe for these people. I wonder if they moved away, if they lost there headrights to the land?<.spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Jayme wrote: "Cherie wrote: "@deaths[spoilers removed]"

I had the same questions about if they moved away. I have heard different stories over time, but I believe that they still (view spoiler)[ kept their headcount rights and property, if they did not sell it. What I wanted to know, was who managed their money for them, if they had a guardian, when they moved away? (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I finished chapter 18. (view spoiler)[Wow, what an amazing amount of work tracking all these people down, and getting their stories, and trying to pin down the evidence. So, Morrison was their mole, and double agent. At the end of this chapter, there is definitely an amount of foreshadowing of things that were going to happen to get William Hall and his accomplices all behind bars. Hale just continues to give me the creeps! It is only 56% of the story up to the end of chapter 18. I guess we get to see how they manage the trial now. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

@ Jayme and the title. I agree, I think the title is misleading, but I guess that is what sells books too! @FBI - thanks for the answer. :o)

[Cherie]

Done with chapter 19. (view spoiler)[Wow, I thought it was all over for White and his team, with all of the things Hale pulled in court and with his nephew. Too bad it took having his daughter die to get Ernest put away. So awful for Mollie to have all of the whites behind Hale against her and her Osage people too. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I am currently at chapter 23. Good grief! This book is like the song that never ends. It just keeps going.

[Jannene]

Cherie wrote: "money”

(view spoiler)[I think we have already seen throughout the book that the guardians didn’t really manage the money as so much as they kept the money away from the Osage. The number of incidents on the Osage by their guardians was insane. I was getting sick about the fact the government thought that they couldn’t manage their own money and put in place a system that was much worse. Who were they to care if the Osage spent their money the way they wanted?? That entire thing pissed me off. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I finally finished the book.
Jannene - I cannot see your spoiler on my mobile app, so I will write up my final thoughts when I am on my laptop. I am glad it is over, though. (view spoiler)[The statistics were appalling and the corruption beyond belief! (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "Done with chapter 19. [spoilers removed]"

Cherie (view spoiler)[ It was crazy that Hale really thought and probably would have gotten away with it. What a smug horrible man (hide spoiler)]

[Renee]

That is it exactly Cherie. (view spoiler)[ Before the FBI came in the local law enforcement just ignored what was happening. FBI looked past the usual suspects. Hale could not manipulate them. I was trying to say sometimes locals are too close. These locals saw the Ausage as worthless Who cared if one died or was wrongly convicted.

I was referencing a common dramatic trick. The FBI or some other agency comes in to take the case. The hard working detectives get shoved out. I never understood why this would happen. This helped me see why. It is a check and balance. Some times the people closest cant see all the facts. (hide spoiler)]




thaCherie wrote: "@ Jannene - I do not think they created the FBI because of this case. They existed before they became involved in the Osage Murders - see chapter 8. [spoilers removed]

@Renee - did you mean this b..."

[Laura (Lclwags)]

This book is infuriating! 1920 was only 100 years ago. My paternal grandparents lived in Oklahoma during the 1920s. I don't think I had previously realized that these events happened when they did. I'm listening to the audio book on Hoopla, so I'm not positive where I am. I do agree that the book is easy to read because of the writing. Grann was smart to focus on Molly and Anna, so I felt an attachment to the characters right away.

[Jayme, Moderator]

Laura (Lclwags) wrote: "This book is infuriating! 1920 was only 100 years ago. My paternal grandparents lived in Oklahoma during the 1920s. I don't think I had previously realized that these events happened when they did...."

It would be interesting to find out if your grandparents remember anything about the Osage tribe murders, or they may have been very young at the time.

[Laura (Lclwags)]

Jayme - They passed away before I was born. I think I will ask my aunt and my older brother if they ever talked to my grandparents about the Osage. We have some family stories that people collected, but it's mostly about their personal lives and fleeing the dust bowl.

[Laura (Lclwags)]

Through Chapter 8, I finally figured out how to see the table of contents. :)
I liked the explanation of the title, the description of the flower-killing moon and it being a metaphor for what was done to the Osage.
I agree with Jayme, the doctors (view spoiler)[ are definitely poisoning Molly and are likely in on the other murders. I like Molly and hope someone steps up to help her before it's too late!
I cannot image how horrible it must have been to fear for your life and to have to move away. The dogs dying off is so ominous! I agree with whoever said this book is worse than a horror movie. How did Bill survive?! That was gruesome.
Tom White - I found his backstory interesting. Please tell me he's a genuine good man and will do something to solve these murders! (hide spoiler)]

[Jayme, Moderator]

Laura (Lclwags) wrote: "Through Chapter 8, I finally figured out how to see the table of contents. :)
I liked the explanation of the title, the description of the flower-killing moon and it being a metaphor for what was ..."

Don't want to give the story away Laura but (view spoiler)[we like Tom White : ) (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Jayme wrote: "Don't want to give the story away Laura but (view spoiler) ..."

Good one, Jayme.

Nice to see someone else reading the book, Laura. There really are some horrifying things happening aren't there?