SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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What is your favorite trope in SF/F?
(I see Seveneves coming up again and again, again. I have a feeling that when I finally get around to reading it, I'll chastise myself for not having done so earlier.But it appears that the group has not read it as a BotM yet? Maybe that can be remedied.)
@Cheryl, we must have very similar tastes! My fave tropes are anything with Robots/Androids and the like, First Contact, time travel and hopeful post-apocalyptic stories.
King Incognito, Hero With Bad Publicity and Locked Room Mysteries - yes, please! Do you have favorite literary examples? Also: I absolutely adore "being caught in a time loop" (a la Groundhog Day/Happy Deathday/Star Trek) but I haven't yet seen it done well in literature - where should I look?
A couple of my favorites would be...Hidden world ... Where just off to the side of reality a whole other kind of world exists and some normal-ish people somehow become aware of it. Examples would be Clive Barker Weaveworld, China Miéville's Kraken, and Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere.
The end of the world as we know it (especially if the "end" is creatively conceived) ... Like Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle and Galapagos, Greg Bear's The Forge of God. I don't really count post apocalyptic tales in with this because they are "after the world ended as we knew it" stories.
I also like a couple that I know I've run into a bunch in books by Philip K. Dick and other writhers … One I'd call The Third Way (as in there seems to be only two ways to solve a problem, both with unwanted consequences … but our hero thinks up a third way that avoids the complications), and one I like to think of as Wheels Within Wheels where "what is really going on" seems simple at first but the further you go into the story the you realize that there is so much more going on. Clever complication. Yeah, that's one I really love but for the life of me I can't think up an example offhand. [DUH, and then I realize that the aforementioned The Forge of God fits the Wheels Within Wheels trope completely.]
@Eva Recursion by Blake Crouch has a little bit of being stuck in a time loop.
@MeaganCM: Ohhh nice!! I've just bought it, so thanks for the tip!@Micah: I love Wheels Within Wheels, so Forge of God goes on my TBR. :)
@Peter: In terms of LitRPG: I've read a few, but I think it's a hard trope to do well in a way that makes the world seem real and immersive. What's your favorite?
Elowen wrote: "I absolutely adore the wise mentor trope. Especially if the mentor survives. (Please authors, stop killing off the teachers. Signed, a teacher)And especially if the mentor and the apprentice develop a profound friendship in the end."
Have you read the Black Magician trilogy by Trudi Canavan, starting with The Magicians' Guild? It immediately popped into my head when I read this.
Elowen, this is children’s/middle grade fantasy, but Tamora Pierce’s Circle-verse has a strong relationship between the students and their teachers. Actually, a couple of them become more like parents to the kids. And none of the teachers die! :)
Elowen wrote: "I read the prequel... can't remember what it was called. The Magician's Apprentice?"The trilogy is probably more what you're looking for, but it does have a slow start. If you end up liking it though, you can have more with the sequel trilogy. Some of my favorite characters are still around in the last book.
Kaa wrote: "@Eva: Ooh, I love the "unwanted companionship/marriage/having to work together even though they hate each other" one, too. Any favorites for that trope?"That's one of my favorites, too!
Some more favorites:
- Found family, especially if one or two of them are "busted" in some way (i.e. Ancillary series, Long Way to an Angry Planet)
- The Alphahole and his apology as per this analysis by Ilona Andrews. Bristly romance.
- The earnest, kind, stupid dude. Can also have insane superpowers that he busts out to help/save his found family. This is much more common in manga and anime than SFF
- Ancient ruins
- Underground cities (can also be ancient ruins)
- SF or Fantasy of manners (more a subgenre than a trope, I think)
There is SF of manners?!I had to google, and I found this GR list. I was thinking more about something like Soulless in space :D
Yeah, I was going to say I'd love to read that, but then I started thinking about how much smooching annoys me in the middle of a space crisis, and I wasn't sure anymore. But then Extracurricular Activities has very steamy smoochy business and a space crisis, and I loved it. And the Hexarchate is definitely "of manners". OK, I think I also enjoy scifi of manners, even though I didn't know it existed! Most of the list I linked is on my GR shelves.
Beth wrote: "Ancient ruins- Underground cities (can also be ancient ruins)"
I enjoyed the ancient ruins trope in Jack McDevitt's Hutch series (Academy series). Starts with The Engines of God.
I also enjoy establishing a characters badassery with an initial fight where he/she/it dominates all opponents. Extra points if the character sarcastically quips throughout like Spider-man. Double secret extra points if the character places handicaps on him/her/itself to really rub in superiority. It makes the inevitable comeuppance that much better.
Chris wrote: "I love Ragtag Bunch of Misfits: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph..."I love that one, too.
Beth wrote: "- The earnest, kind, stupid dude. Can also have insane superpowers that he busts out to help/save his found family. This is much more common in manga and anime than SFF."OMG, Carrot! (Guards! Guards!)
Beth wrote:- SF or Fantasy of manners (more a subgenre than a trope, I think)
Yes, love this too! And it goes so well with the aforementioned enemies-who-must-work-together one.
@Eva (msg 39): Thanks! Yeah, Much Ado is probably my favorite Shakespeare. I think I really ought to try Honor Harrington, especially as competence porn is another favorite trope of mine.I love love love when it's competence combined with the fish-out-of-water trope - both Ninefox Gambit and the Raksura books are actually good examples of that combination.
@Ergative, every single trope you've listed is fabulous for me, too. I'm even more excited to finally read Exhalation now.
I like super advanced technology, especially Internet or Web 9.0.
Eva wrote: "King Incognito, Hero With Bad Publicity and Locked Room Mysteries - yes, please! Do you have favorite literary examples?"I don't think I've ever really seen a King Incognito narrative which fully embraces everything I want from it? I usually look for the narratives where the person themselves know they are royalty but the people around them don't. I think the closest thing I can think of is The Seer and the Sword, funnily enough. It's been a really long time since I read that, though- so I can't guarantee the story as a whole hold up well because I can't remember much of it. I suppose the Captive Prince books also qualify? Oh, and A Conspiracy of Kings too, probably. Codex Alera plays with this trope a lot, especially in Cursor's Fury and I appreciated that. I can only think of other examples that have it as a one-off scene more than an actual full-blown plot.
Additional note; the whole Zuko Arc in Season 2 of Avatar:The Last Airbender is one of my absolute favorite examples of this trope.
Hero With Bad Publicity is somehow even harder to come up with- there are a lot of elements of it in superhero comics, I think. Spider-man stories are sometimes filled with a gazillion small humiliations and everyday worries in Peter Parker's personal life, and I like those stories a lot. Don't get me wrong- every superhero has at least one arc where they are wildly misunderstood, but when it comes to spiderman, there's just an added layer of how he has to deal with all the normal everyday boring annoyances in ADDITION to being called a public menace. (Thanks, JJ.) That said, comicverses are really convoluted all of the time so narrowing it down to a specific storyline that also isn't completely insane is hard. Batman also gets bits of this, depending on the version, but you know- it doesn't really *bother* him all that much, so it's less significant?
Books, books, books... the Dresden Files has some elements of this. Everyone vilifies Harry to some extent or another, which makes sense because a lot of the character is based on Spider-man. The Order of the Phoenix era in the Harry Potter books, because misinformation campaigns are fun! The trope of overworked person whose job it is to deal with various sundry nasties to the horror of the people immediately around him overlaps with this a lot. Like Flight of Magpies or Rag and Bone. The Magician's Apprentice also has this- that was the point where I irrevocably adopted Akkarin, no takebacks.
Locked Room thingy is a pretty broad trope. My favorite variation is all characters are trapped in a situation they cannot escape from, and something bad is coming. Illuminae, Kitty's House of Horrors and Smoke and Mirrors are examples I can think of right now. Other examples may be stretching things a little, like All Systems Red which is technically a story of a bunch of people trapped in a designated area with danger approaching but also the area in question is a planet so... eh? I still like it though?
Time Loops are the best and I love every episode with the things. But I think it may be easier to narrate visually, because you can make use of montages to get through the loops. I have seen montage-ish's used in fanfiction (there was a my little pony fanfic which did this really well. it was very good but also a little 'what the hell is this thing supposed to be?") but I'm not really sure how it can work well in novels. //adds Recursion to to-read list
Elowen wrote: "I absolutely adore the wise mentor trope. Especially if the mentor survives. (Please authors, stop killing off the teachers. Signed, a teacher)And especially if the mentor and the apprentice develop a profound friendship in the end. "
I don’t have time to post a more substantial response about my own preferred tropes right now (hey, I heard those sighs of relief, how rude!), but I just wanted to take a minute and heartily second Elowen's comment!
I tend to get very attached to the mentor characters, and I get tired of them getting killed off. More than once I’ve written within the spoiler tags of my reviews that I knew Character X was going to die because the mentors always die.
Kaa wrote: "My genius preference (which overlaps with Sarah and Allison's) is the morally ambiguous, terrifyingly clever manipulator/plotter who is still at least a little bit fallible"Seeing Kaa's examples, and being familiar with a couple of them, I'll add this trope/character type, too. Even if it's more "I love to hate them" than "I love them." (view spoiler) in particular can get on my last nerve sometimes, but they're so compelling!
Kaa wrote: "Beth wrote: "- The earnest, kind, stupid dude. Can also have insane superpowers that he busts out to help/save his found family."
OMG, Carrot!..."
Whoa, you're right! Mind blown! Now I'm wondering if I've missed a bunch more in the SFF world.
So many great suggestions, thank you, guys!! @YouKneek: I very much want to hear yours, so hit us with it, no excuses. :-D
Ok, after a few days of minor personal chaos, I’ve finally had some time to attempt an answer. :)As discussed above, I very much like the wise mentor trope, at least until the point where the wise mentor almost always gets killed off for emotional impact and to force the main character to “grow” by losing a valuable part of their support system.
I’m also a big fan of the common epic fantasy trope where the story starts with an orphaned, abandoned or otherwise mistreated child who discovers special abilities or just in some way finds himself or herself playing an important role in counteracting whatever the story’s threat is. My ideal implementation of this trope would not include any prophecies whatsoever. There are a gazillion examples of this, but a couple of my favorites are Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb and Magician: Apprentice by Raymond E. Feist.
Brothers in arms or other types of close friendships are another big one for me. I'm especially a sucker for ruler/subject types of friendships that transcend the conventional boundaries expected from their respective social positions. Funny banter is a huge plus, but please don’t take page time away from their friendship by giving one or both of them an obnoxious love interest! A couple examples: Seyonne and Aleksander in Carol Berg’s Rai-Kirah series, starting with Transformation. (Please don’t look at that horrible cover; the book is good, the cover is not.) Jimmy and Arutha in some of Raymond E. Feist’s books.
The loveable rogue. The kind of character who’s a bit of a scoundrel, but tries to do the right thing when it really matters and ends up becoming a character you can respect. The first books that come to mind are Carol Berg’s Lighthouse duology, starting with Flesh and Spirit. I know there have been others, but I’m drawing a blank right now. Oh, Mat from the Wheel of Time would be a good example, although it took a few books before he grew on me. Maybe Logen from Abercrombie’s First Law series to some extent, but not without internal debate.
There are others I enjoy, many of which have been listed in this thread, but I can get tired of them if I run into them in too many books in a row. The ones I listed above are the ones I never seem to get tired of.
Edited to add a book link I forgot to include.
Oh wow, YouKneek - you've GOT to read Skyward by Brandon Sanderson! It has every single thing you've just listed and is very awesome, I've just finished reading it. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out!
Oh really! I’ve made a note of it and I’ll definitely keep it on my radar. I haven’t read a lot of Sanderson, but I have very much liked what I’ve read. I’m just crazy stubborn about only reading a series after it’s complete, but at least Sanderson makes consistent progress on his series. I don’t think he has a 2019 “State of the Sanderson” out yet, but his December 2018 post indicated it’s a four-book series and book four would likely be out in 2022. (That’s what Goodreads says too, but I wanted to verify.) So I’ll follow up with you in about 3 years. ;)
Happy endings. Especially ones that do NOT get undermined for a sequel.Actually heroic characters.
Detailed world-building.
Yes, absolutely: happy endings and true heroes are wonderful tropes, not everything has to be grimdark. :-)Not sure if detailed world-building is a trope, but it's definitely something I like (as long as it's not info-dumped on me).
I really like (when well done) scrappy kid has a horrible childhood but then does the impossible and saves all the day(s) - as seen in basically every Mercedes Lackey book ever. Currently reading Joust-Grumpy character hates everyone and everything and yet can't seem to stop themselves from saving everyone - Murderbot (and Riddick movies)
-Thief/assassin with a heart of gold (this also includes heist stories where the heist is successful)
-well written travelogues - The Belgarion and the Mallorean
-Through the portal stories - [some of the] Witchworld stories by Andre Norton
Happy Endings. I don't do sad endings/grimddark endings. The day is won, the heist goes well, the bad guy is killed and the romance happens are the book endings I like.
Having just finished rereading Ancillary Justice, I was reminded of a favorite trope/character type: the loyal retainer.MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "-Grumpy character hates everyone and everything and yet can't seem to stop themselves from saving everyone - Murderbot (and Riddick movies)"
ETA: Breq, the Ancillary books' main character, is like this, too. At the very beginning of the first one, she saves a lieutenant she didn't care for "earlier in her life," (going deeper into that is a minor spoiler), and continues to save many others as the series goes along, being a bossy ol' grouch the whole way.
Beth wrote: "Having just finished rereading Ancillary Justice, I was reminded of a favorite trope/character type: the loyal retainer."Followed closely by the stalwart braces and faithful nighttime headgear. 😬 😁
I just can't get enough of the war machine that appears inert after an ancient war, then suddenly wakes up once more. I first remember it from one of the Keith Laumer Bolo books.
E.A. wrote: "I just can't get enough of the war machine that appears inert after an ancient war, then suddenly wakes up once more. I first remember it from one of the Keith Laumer Bolo books."That’s a fun one. Niven has also used it a couple times with Slaver stasis boxes showing up periodically. The World of Ptavvs even had a member of the ancient race show up. The Slaver Weapon was even adapted into an animated Star Trek episode.
It’s less fun in real life, with all of our old landmines killing kids all over the world to this day.
i fully agree with Mrs Joseph, and stop calling your self grouchy, ha ha ha. We need a more sophisticated word for our grumpiness. IF i don't get a good read done in a day I am not a person to live with.
i have even been known to go to the last chapter in a book just to check that the character i like is still alive. Hate books were the hero/heroine dies
@Kateb - one Time I spoiled myself on accident just flipping through pages, and I caught the first words of a chapter I hadn’t reached yet “Character’s funeral was on a bright sunny day” and was basically in tears- almost quit reading.Character totally faked their death. It was not funny.
Okay maybe a little funny in retrospect.
Oh, Sarah, that's awful! Well, at least then it was. A little funny now, as an anecdote, yes.MrsJoseph, Portals, yes, more titles of that would be appreciated. All I can think of are some children's excuses for historical fiction, and a few very light works. (And my memories are swirling so I don't have example titles right now and don't feel like they're worth digging for.)
Cheryl wrote: "My favorite, too.I also like First Contact.
And robots/cyborgs/uplifted apes or dogs or... ."
Cyborgs because they're here already.
Love the idea of De Bodard's mem-plants. Gonna start reading The Tea Master and the Detective this week.
And then there's BIOMEGA バイオメガ 1.
Cheryl wrote: "Oh, Sarah, that's awful! Well, at least then it was. A little funny now, as an anecdote, yes.MrsJoseph, Portals, yes, more titles of that would be appreciated. All I can think of are some childre..."
Outlander
Kindred
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
The Chronicles of Narnia
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
The River of Dancing Gods
Into the Storm
The Walls of the Universe
A Darker Shade of Magic
The Infinity Concerto
The Reluctant Swordsman
Child of a Hidden Sea
The Fionavar Tapestry
Wildside
The Invisible Library
Ty, Trike. Of course we've known some of those, but nice to be reminded. I'm actually reading W of Oz for another group this month.
E.A. wrote: "I just can't get enough of the war machine that appears inert after an ancient war, then suddenly wakes up once more. I first remember it from one of the Keith Laumer Bolo books."Clockwork Boys & The Wonder Engine may qualify? Corambis too, maybe but the focus is elsewhere there.
Oblivious jocks who have been raised to be Very Polite and have huge crushes is apparently another trope that makes me grin. In Other Lands, Sword Dance, Think of England.
Oh wait that's a Romance trope. But two of those books are sff? One of them? I'm not done with Sword Dance yet it could just be non magical another world historical or something.
Cheryl wrote: "Ty, Trike. Of course we've known some of those, but nice to be reminded. I'm actually reading W of Oz for another group this month."I remember the sequels being really good too? Loved Ozma of Oz when I first read it, it was inspired.
Portal Stories; Down Among the Sticks and Bones. There is also the fairyland variation but those tend to be a little different in tone.
Lol Kateb. I’m not grouchy. I’m just menopausal and over peoples shit. People think I’m a grumpy shit but they would be wrong. I’ve lost patience with them and don’t mind letting them know. I’m still a ray of sunshine around quite a few people. OK...maybe not quite a few but a few. I like those uplifting or happy endings too either at the end of the book or the end of the series. There doesn’t have to be a happily ever after ending up at least one where everyone is content with their lives.
I guess it's pretty similar to evil genius seeking redemption or people who hate each other working together, I really like when adversaries become allies. I like the humanism it implies, that we can all get past our differences if we stop fighting and talk. It's silly but off the top of my head the best example I can think of is Avatar: the Last Air Bender, or even sillier, Dragon Ball. Literally all of Goku's friends start out as enemies. But I like the idea of a hero who makes friends with their enemies instead of killing them. While I love this trope it sometimes goes a little far. There will be times when it shows up in a story and after a while I'm like, wait? Isn't that guy a mass murderer? Helps you out of one tough spot and all's forgiven? They actually nailed this in the most recent season of Agents of SHIELD. It ends with a bad guy who switched sides getting unceremoniously thrown back in a cell.
Which made me happy because Loki in the same universe is definitely one of the characters that made me think, wait, Thor's giving him a TENTH chance? I'm pretty sure that guy's a war criminal. Not that it isn't fun to watch those two characters bounce off each other.
Yes, I agree, JSH! This is also one of the things that didn't work at all for me in Binti: big spoiler for Binti following (view spoiler)I'm all for forgiveness, but you can forgive and still have healthy boundaries and consequences (and refuse to trust until trust has truly been earned). And prioritize protecting innocents to being extra nice to dangerous people.
Often, the murder of "non-persons" such as unnamed guards, or billions of unnamed people living on some planet, is just completely forgotten and ignored by everyone in the narrative and the audience, as well. One can easily see that in how everyone feels about Kylo killing (view spoiler) vs. Kylo also killing literally billions of other people. The latter is instantly forgotten and forgiven, the former resentfully remembered. It just proves Stalin right when he said "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." Somehow, this never works for me in stories the way it seems to work for other people, I'm always like "wait, you're letting him go?! he just killed six innocent guards! what about their devastated families? do they somehow not count?!" and then the credits roll.
But I do love Loki as an endlessly entertaining character and am glad Thor is always so naive and insanely forgiving. He's just so darkly charming, and I'm like "the poor, hurting baby, he didn't know what he was doing, he just needs love". But then I do turn my brain on and it tells me he's a grown-up and has actually already received tons of love from people and that didn't help at all. Which is why he should stay in a cell and maybe get some therapy, not an adventure in space. I wish more books would teach especially young girls this "brain cells now engaged" part.
JSH wrote: "But I like the idea of a hero who makes friends with their enemies instead of killing them."I enjoy this one, too. Our little group of anime fans calls one variant of this "conversion/recruitment by butt-kicking"
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Down Among the Sticks and Bones (other topics)In Other Lands (other topics)
Clockwork Boys (other topics)
The Wonder Engine (other topics)
Corambis (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Brandon Sanderson (other topics)Trudi Canavan (other topics)
Tad Williams (other topics)
Jo Nesbø (other topics)
Rick Riordan (other topics)
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- The Evil Person is actually the guy who's desperately doing everything to keep the world turning. Narratives combining Hero With Bad Publicity and Villain with Good Publicity, basically.
- Locked Room Mysteries/Bottle Episodes/Isolated Ensemble Cast. I know it's not an SFF trope as much as a mystery trope but I really like it. Eg: The Wolf 359 Podcast. There's just a lot of reliance on characterization when the story is confined like that, and I do like my characterizations.
- I like Post-Apocalyptic stories, but what I really like are the um- Present-Apocalyptic stories? The apocalypse happening as we speak, or is going to happen very soon and people are preparing for it. Also the immediate fallout post-apocalypse. Like the first two parts of Seveneves, for example. Or Kingdom of Needle and Bone.