Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion
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Orcs
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S.E., Gray Mouser (Emeritus)
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Oct 19, 2014 05:01AM
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I've personally become more interested in Orcs over the years. Didn't pay that much attention to them in Lord of the Rings. They weren't major players it seemed to me. I liked the depiction of them in the movies. I became more interested and discovered how widespread they were when I got invited to write a story for an Orc themed anthology. That was where Harvest of War came from, and I did a lot of reading about Orcs before starting it. Now I'm even playing an Orc character on Skyrim!
Orcs!Skyrim did a lot for me to become more interested. Hell, it lit the fire that got me to start writing my book. One of the big things about them these days is trying to remove the "brute race of evil for slaughter by heroes" aspects. Sometimes, this is done better than others. Sometimes, all they get is the "noble savage" treatment or the loner who is not like the others. We can do better than that. There's so much you can do with them. Just as much as any Elf or Human.
Yeah, I like making them more complete characters. Not necessarily villains or heroes but more well rounded.
Yeah, write them like you would any "regular people" but make sure they still have their own identity and culture.
Hkw many books focusing on Orcs are worth aa read? I've heard Orcs is pretty paint-by-numbers and juvenile.
Re: Harvest of War I put it in my wishlist. I'll get it soon and chow down on it. Seth's review is mighty encouraging.
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Just responding to this post from the Introductions thread: Charles wrote: "Ashe, hope you enjoy Harvest of War. That was a cover I actually got from a free art site. I think it's an old photo of some memorial"
Awesome memorial! But it does resemble something put together by a hobbyist working with figurines (just saying).
Greg, you know, it could be. I'm just not sure.
I agree with the general sentiment that a book or story where orcs have a point of view and have individual motivations and internal conflicts is more interesting than using them merely as cannon fodder for the human/elf/dwarf hero to dispatch. Interestingly, Dungeons & Dragons has from an early stage allowed players to play a half-orc (i.e. half-human/half-orc) character in the game but I don't know of any tales about half-orcs in the wider fantasy literature either. Something else to be redressed/exploited?
Charles wrote: "Greg, you know, it could be. I'm just not sure."OK. Either way - real memorial or hobbyist's model - it still looks cool. :)
Mark wrote: "
would recommend this one."Added it to my TBR list!
Greg wrote: "Charles wrote: "Greg, you know, it could be. I'm just not sure."OK. Either way - real memorial or hobbyist's model - it still looks cool. :)
Mark wrote: "
would recomm..."Enjoy it Greg.
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OK. Either way - real memorial or hobbyist's model - it still looks cool. :)
Mark wrote: "
..."I liked that one quite a bit as well; it's a very silly book ...
I've seen that one brought up too. Still not sold on it.I think another aspect of giving Orcs actual character traits is taking them out of the medieval settings Tolkien put them in. It's one of the quickest ways of making them fresh. From there, try to write a good character and tell a good story.
Just spotted this thread, have any of you guys read the first blood trilogy by Stan Nicholls? Apparently from all accounts, he does a good job of portraying orcs. He uses them as his protagonists, which is an original idea.
Sorry but that book Ors by Nicholls, in my opinion, is really bad. He did nothing with the Orcs to make them unique to being Orcs. There weren't even that tough. The blurb on the back of the omnibus edition was great!. If only the book was like the blurb. They supposed to be a warrior culture, but instead of their commander telling them what they were going to do, they voted on every decision. Don't even get me started on the villain of the book,she pleasures herself with a unicorn horn. C'mon.
Kidgreg wrote: "Sorry but that book Ors by Nicholls, in my opinion, is really bad. He did nothing with the Orcs to make them unique to being Orcs. There weren't even that tough. The blurb on the back of the omnibu...":O A unicorn horn as a dildo? LOL Presumably she slew the unicorn to acquire it, adding to her badass nature?
yeah. she did actually. She also did like a sacrificial rape/murder to a female elf if I recall correctly.. I reviewed it on fantasyliterature.com. I don't know how it ever got printed.
Kidgreg wrote: "Sorry but that book Ors by Nicholls, in my opinion, is really bad. He did nothing with the Orcs to make them unique to being Orcs. There weren't even that tough. The blurb on the back of the omnibu..."I agree that the synopsis looked great. After your description I probably won't read it now. Dwarves seem to be more popular than orcs, but it seems like the current dwarf fiction is as one dimentional and lacking in originality as ever.
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2333508/p...
A battle-weary ex-Special Forces Operative buys a ranch in remote American West to flee from the world, and encounters a strange series of trespassers, including a beautiful elf princess and a Native American mystic and Orcs. When the Orcs invade his property, John must give up his isolation to become a hero, before the Orcs unleash their dragon god on our world.
Well, everyone's discussion of Nicholls's work pretty much answered my question. Maybe Trey and I will be able to say that we were innovators for Orcs in fiction one day haha. I think I read that there was some Orc stuff in a Forgotten Realms but I can't remember what I saw of it other than it was an Orc king trying to save his tribe. It seems that most books using Orcs as mains are either terrible or just okay and any that use them as central are the same.I'll have to check out Dragonfyre. And eventually, I'll need to get some booze and some good pizza and watch Orcs! too considering how silly it looks.
I've read most of the Orc-themed books out there and they do tend to be hit-or-miss. Either they're parodies of the common view of Orcs (Mary Gentle's GRUNTS) or they don't really do enough to set Orcs apart as a species of their own. Some even use the term "Orc" without using any of the tropes that make Orcs orky (Morgan Howell's QUEEN OF THE ORCS trilogy).My own entry into Orc-related fiction was a short story called "Amarante", which was self-pubbed and is now out of circulation. I went the Tolkien-route, rather than the hulking greenskins. I'm finishing up writing a novel that stems from a question: what if Tolkien had found the Orcs in Norse myth, as he did Dwarves and Elves. What would they be like? Further, what if they actually existed? How would they fit into Norse myth and history? With any luck, it should be out on shelves by this time next year.
Charles wrote: "I enjoyed Amarante!"Thanks, mate! "Harvest of War" was great work, too. Wish I could have pulled that antho together . . .
Oh, and here's a partial bibliography of Orc-centric and Orc-related fiction (novel-length; not done anything like it for short stories, though Sarah Lauderdale has taken it upon herself to create an exhaustive bibliography of *everything* Orc-related):Anderson, Kevin J. The Orc's Treasure. New York: IBooks, 2005.
Argo, Sean-Michael. The Killing Spirit. Frederick, MD: PublishAmerica, 2004.
Dalmas, John. Orc Wars: The Yngling Saga, Books I & II. New York: Baen Books, 1992.
DeCandido, Keith R.A. World of Warcraft: Cycle of Hatred. New York: Pocket Books, 2006.
Farmer, Christopher J. Fallen Elves: The Second Neoluzian War. Lincoln, NB: iUniverse, 2004.
Gentle, Mary. Grunts. New York: ROC, 1992.
Golden, Christie. Warcraft: Lord of the Clans. New York: Pocket Books, 2001.
———. Warcraft: Rise of the Horde. New York: Pocket Books, 2006.
Hines, Jim C. Goblin War. New York: DAW, 2008.
(Third book in the Jig the Goblin series; only one to feature Orcs)
Howell, Morgan. Queen of the Orcs: King’s Property. New York: Del Rey, 2007.
———. Queen of the Orcs: Clan Daughter. New York: Del Rey, 2007.
———. Queen of the Orcs: Royal Destiny. New York: Del Rey, 2007.
Loeland, Kai Morgan. Battle of the Orcs. Milton Keynes: AuthorHouse UK, 2006.
Long, Nathan. Orcslayer. Nottingham: Black Library, 2006.
Lyons, Steve. Death World. Nottingham: Black Library, 2006.
(WH40K Orks)
Major, S.J. Children of the Orcs. Milton Keynes: AuthorHouse UK, 2006.
Mitchell, Sandy. Caves of Ice. Nottingham: Black Library, 2004.
———. Death or Glory. Nottingham: Black Library, 2006.
(WH40K Orks)
Nicholls, Stan. Bodyguard of Lightning*. London: Gollancz, 1999.
———. Legion of Thunder*. London: Gollancz, 1999.
———. Warriors of the Tempest*. London: Gollancz, 2000.
(*Also collected in the Orcs Omnibus)
Parker, Steve. Rebel Winter. Nottingham: Black Library, 2007.
(WH40K Orks)
Salvatore, R.A. The Thousand Orcs. Reston: Wizards of the Coast, 2003.
———. The Orc King. Reston: Wizards of the Coast, 2008.
Scanlon, Mitchell. Fifteen Hours. Nottingham: Black Library, 2005.
(WH40K Orks)
Tolkien, J.R.R. The Hobbit. New York: Ballantine Books, 1965.
———. The Lord of the Rings. New York: Ballantine Books, 1965.
———. The Silmarillion. New York: Ballantine Books, 1979.
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S.E. wrote: "This Orc crowd cracks me up. Great list, Scott. We are definitely going to have a Swords and a Orcs Groupread in 2015."I'm down with that, SE :)
Right now, I am interested in only one novel that features Orcs; Scott's nearly completed new novel-Go Scott!
S.wagenaar wrote: "Right now, I am interested in only one novel that features Orcs; Scott's nearly completed new novel-Go Scott!"I'm on it, Stan! ;)
Ashe wrote: "I'll have to check out Dragonfyre. And eventually, I'll need to get some booze and some good pizza and watch Orcs! too considering how silly it looks."Hmm. I suspect the DVD cover is the best part of that movie if it only got a score of 3.6! Perhaps best viewed after imbibing several jars?
Scott wrote: "My own entry into Orc-related fiction was a short story called "Amarante", which was self-pubbed and is now out of circulation. I went the Tolkien-route, rather than the hulking greenskins. I'm finishing up writing a novel that stems from a question: what if Tolkien had found the Orcs in Norse myth, as he did Dwarves and Elves. What would they be like? Further, what if they actually existed? How would they fit into Norse myth and history? With any luck, it should be out on shelves by this time next year. "Sounds like an interesting story. Do you plan to republish it sometime? Nice list of orc-related books too!
Greg wrote: "Scott wrote: "My own entry into Orc-related fiction was a short story called "Amarante", which was self-pubbed and is now out of circulation. I went the Tolkien-route, rather than the hulking green...""Amarante"? Probably so, once I get a couple of companion pieces ready to go with it. The novel mentioned is the "Norse Orc" piece. It's called A GATHERING OF RAVENS and should be out from St. Martin's Press hopefully this time next year.
That is a pretty handy list. Thanks for that. It's strangely encouraging reading everything in this thread. I really hope I can do some serious justice towards Orcs and especially in a way that doesn't just consist of nothing but tropes. I feel like I have thus far and that it'll get better with future books involving other Orcs besides my MC.And I am definitely down for an Orc-based group read. Provided we do it next year, that way I'll be moved and have space to buy more books again.
Maybe both Scott and Ashe will have their orc novels out in time for selection in next year's orc group read! :)
I'm aiming for a June release. Though I'm not entirely sure how appropriate my story would be for the group since, as a weird western, it's less sword and sorcery and more gun and sorcery...which is a phrase I really like haha.
This a short story I wrote, about 5 years ago.its warhammer orc story.
have a laugh. Lol
https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/...
I don't have any knowledge of Warhammer mythology so I'm lost.
Ashe wrote: "I don't have any knowledge of Warhammer mythology so I'm lost."Lols. Thats good mate.
Well, as long as it doesn't hurt me I guess haha.
Somebody's gotta do it! I'll be excited to see what folks say when I can finally release it.
So, writers, how do you define your Orcs? Do you follow the Tolkien line and make them a blighted race of slaves to some evil power? Are they the bloodthirsty greenskins of Warhammer, or the noble savages of WoW/Elder Scrolls? Or do you approach it differently? Brief prose examples of your Orcs would be great to help illustrate the route your're taking . . .
I'm kinda takin everything. The history is on the Tolkienish side, mixed in with a lot of Elder Scrolls, but ultimately, I just wanted to grow them as a people. And given my setting is a western, there's been plenty of room to do that with other races as well. So, there's a predominance of greenskinnery, like the Orsimer, similar in build. I'll have to provide some prose examples later.Also, my protagonist is a demon-hunting gunslinger, if that helps set an image.
Ashe wrote: "I'm kinda takin everything. The history is on the Tolkienish side, mixed in with a lot of Elder Scrolls, but ultimately, I just wanted to grow them as a people. And given my setting is a western, t..."I read a snippet at your blog, Ashe. I thought it well-done, and making it a Western was a particularly brilliant touch. I'm interested in how you grow them as a people; probably the most unique take on Orcs in the fiction I've read is Morgan Howell's -- he borrows heavily from Native American culture, makes the Orcs a matriarchy, and even has a decent lexicon of their language. In appearance, though, they remind me of great apes rather than Orcs. I admire what Stan Nicholls' did with his original trilogy of books (gathered under the Orcs Omnibus cover), though except for the opening chapter of the first book, his Orcs always struck me as very human -- indeed, it might have been part of his plan to make his Orcs more human than his Humans.
My own, from A GATHERING OF RAVENS, follow the Tolkien outline very closely -- by design, since I'm "reverse engineering" them into Norse myth. They operate on their own, without needing to be under the sway of some evil power, but otherwise much of their lore echoes and mirrors JRRT's. Here's a snippet from Chapter One, where my protagonist, Grimnir, reveals himself to two monks he is forced to share a cave with, during a fierce autumn storm in Denmark, circa 1000 AD:
The figure moved nearer to the circle of light cast by the monks’ fire. The thunder had faded; the rain was a soft hiss. Weak flares of lightning revealed little more than a twisted silhouette, gnarled limbs bulging with muscle and sinew. “I am called many things, Christ-Dane," the figure said. "Corpse-maker and Life-quencher, the Bringer of Night, the Son of the Wolf and Brother of the Serpent. I am the eldest of Bálegyr’s brood, called Grimnir by my people.”
But what stepped from the shadows was no man. It was not even human – not as Njal or Aidan or any other sane mind would reckon it. The flickering firelight threw Grimnir’s features in sharp relief. The planes and angles of its face were long and sharp, wolfish in the half-light of the cave. Coarse black hair, woven with gold beads and discs of carved ivory, framed eyes like splinters of rusted iron, set deep into a craggy brow. It was broad of chest and long of arm, almost apish in his posture, with tattoos in cinder and woad snaking across its swarthy hide. Grimnir was clad in antiquated splendor: a sleeveless hauberk of ring-mail and black leather, a kilt of poorly tanned horsehide cut from the flanks of a dappled roan, a cloak of wolf-skins, and arm-rings of gold, silver, and wrought iron. One black-nailed hand rested on the worn hilt of a long-seax.
Scott wrote: I read a snippet at your blog, Ashe. I thought it well-done, and making it a Western was a particularly brilliant touch. I'm interested in how you grow them as a peopleHey, thanks a lot! As for what I'm doing, like I said, I'm doing some Tolkien roots. The biggest thing I thought about was the end of the War of the Ring. You've got this entire people, whatever their origins, that already exist to be killed by the heroes and after Sauron's fall and death, they are completely free of control now. What happens? In Tolkien's world, most likely, they would be eradicated. Genocide.
My inspiration was actually from playing an Orsimer in Skyrim for a while. It started off with me trying to roleplay the character a bit. He's not the savior of the world, not the Dragonborn, just an Orc adventurer. So I'd play and then prose what I played. One night, I'm talkin to a friend and we're discussing some ideas I'd had and I said I had the idea of an Orc gunslinger and then boom, Grimluk was born (kinda laughin that both our characters have names that start with Grim). There's a lot of ideas from a series I had started that was more on the side of Alternate Universe Earth that got cannibalized into this world now.
I've definitely gone with the Skyrim aesthetic for their appearance but with mixtures of the designs from Tolkien. The greens will be more natural looking and there will be browns and blacks as well. If you read the first chapter, you might've noticed I mentioned Grimluk's skin having a gray mottle to it. So, things of that nature.
As for their culture, I've gotten it in my head that, after the fall of the Great Evil in my world, some 1500 years ago, you now have this people who suddenly are free but face the prospect of a quick extinction. Ya know, I'm sayin all this and I can't decide if I want to keep things close or just bust out with details cause I got a lot but I want to let readers learn through the book (and future books).
Anywho, sorry, rambly. I really like the intro of Grimnir. It's very regal but also frightening. Very cool.
Good find, Mark! Lacking in reviews but it's only a year old. I also found this in the "Also Bought" on Amazon: The Orc of Many Questions No idea if either series is worth a damn but I'll be checking them out.
Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy"
Books mentioned in this topic
Fixer (other topics)Harvest of War (other topics)
Seven Heavenly Virtues - Fantasy Noir Anthology From The Fringe (other topics)
Goblins (other topics)
Goblins (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Stan Nicholls (other topics)E.R. Eddison (other topics)
Guy Haley (other topics)
