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Everything I Never Told You
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Wilhelmina wrote: "Yep - I saw Jack's big announcement coming from a mile away. Poor Lydia finally decides on an act of rebellion and she picks the absolutely wrong guy. This girl just broke my heart. Can anyone see ..."I think the give away was the scene with the water drop if I remember. At least this is when I suspected how Jack felt about Nath.
George wrote: "well, for me the relevance is in the fact that Lydia reached out to someone, making her even more vulnerable at a time when she was very shaky to begin with, only to be utterly rejected. it's not l..."Jean wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Ok, I had absolutely no clue Jack may have had feelings for Nath. The only possible hint that there may have been some attraction was at the lake where the author played up the lit..."
I maybe over stretching this, but I actually saw the Jack revelation as just another avenue of where love can come from and it fits a little into a James/Nath/Jack triangle.
Nath is trying desperately to please his Dad in exchange for his love to no avail. What Nath does not see is the unexpected love from Jack.
The beauty here is that Jack just seems to just love him and there is no need for anything in return...
Basically, I do not think that the author was emphasising the gay element at all, I think it was simply about love in general.
Mod
Yes, I also agree that Lydia's death was an accident.
And that being around the water was her saving grace.
Also it could be that she had done this before and this time something went wro..."
I returned the book, but I think he was slapped or punched twice by James. The second time had something to do with a Space comment, I think. James the disciplinarian.
Truly a riveting read! I felt so very sad for all of the family members, Nath most of all. Lydia seems to be the one holding the family together, with her parents fawning all over her, pushing their unfulfilled dreams on her; but it’s Nath who has to prop her up. He understands Lydia's pain and he empathizes with her even in the midst of his own pain. He is ignored and rebuked while she is applauded at every turn. If it weren’t for him, Lydia would have crumbled a long time ago. When he finally gets an opportunity to escape the madness, Lydia (accidently) kills herself, leaving him with feelings of guilt.
Poor Hannah seems to be nothing more than a distraction to all of them.
Columbus wrote: "I returned the book, but I think he was slapped or punched twice by James. The second time had something to do with a Space comment, I think. James the disciplinarian. "Or, James the "can't manage his feelings". I returned the book, too, but if I remember correctly, Marilyn was in Toledo at the time and James was really reacting to that and not Space, but of course Nath takes it as a shut down of the space conversation. It seemed to mirror how James starts the affair when Lydia dies - he has a pattern of choosing destructive outlets for his feelings of grief and loss.
Virginie wrote: "Nath is trying desperately to please his Dad in exchange for his love to no avail. What Nath does not see is the unexpected love from Jack."Yes, this comes back to my original questions about Jack's interaction at the pool, and with the candy fish he offers Nath (both incidents were early on, the candy incident was the summer when Nath is 6? and Mom is in Toledo I think). Both times Nath is in a bad place and interprets Jack's actions as hostile, whereas both times we can now see Jack's actions were coming from a place of love, perhaps not fully developed at that point, but certainly far removed from the hostility Nath is interpreting.
It seems to me the author may be using the Nath and Jack relationship to prepare us for just how far actions can be misinterpreted. If Nath can interpret Jack's love as hostility, what does that mean for Lydia if everyone interprets her death as suicide? I was really haunted by this notion of someone's death being so thoroughly misinterpreted. With no "suicide note", everyone is forced to come up with their own explanations for her death, but could anyone really be expected to come up with what really happened? How would you even think of it? And what does that mean for their closure. Is it all made up? I think mostly I was sad that the lessons Lydia was learning would now be lost forever, but perhaps the family is learning some of them anyway...
Mod
Do you feel the author was attempting to intentionally make the ending ambiguous or was it rather clear cut to you?
Which character did you identify with more? Why?
Would you recommend this book or read more by her?
Since we knew from the beginning about Lydia's death, I think that it was probably as positive an outcome as we could have hoped for. I didn't really identify with any of the characters, but Lydia is the one who broke my heart. She tried so hard to be what her parents wanted her to be and it destroyed her. I also felt badly for Louisa, who never even got a decent "Goodbye" from James, whom she clearly loved. The family seems to be on its way toward healing, especially poor little Hannah.
Was it a satisfactory ending?...Hmm, not sure.Yes Lydia wad dead from the beginning of the story and nothing can be done to change that, however it is all left up in the air when turning the last page with no real conclusion. It is left to the reader to interpret.
I did not really identify with any of the characters although there is surely a little bit of each of them in us. I can certainly understand, the feeling of not being heard or wanting to please.
I would definitely read more from Celeste Ng and recommend her book. I am curious to know if she has thought of the characters moving on with their life after Lydia departed.
i found this effort by celeste ng not entirely satisfactory, but she is definitely someone to watch. she has things to say. she just needs to find the right amount of space in which to say them.
Mod
I would definitely read more by her and in fact looking forward to her next family saga based in Shaker Heights, OH where she lived. S.H., A planned community that resembles a Stepford Wives like town with little to no integration problems and golf cart like vehicles that retrieve your garbage bins from your driveway to retain the attractiveness of the city blocks. Book based on that unusualness.
I think I agree Virginie about the the final pages and ending. I also think the reader was left to decide. Which is always frustrating to me but also nice for writers to make that choice for an ending. I can relate to being a people pleaser. My parents about the youngest in each of there families and felt they were never good enough so I think that is how it was passed on to me. I can definatly relate to the "Yes, Mom" Although not extreme of Lydia. I have learned to stand my ground with my both parents. My dad for sure does not appreciate it. My mom doesn't like it but knows she can't do a thing to change me.
I think overtime you just realize they are never going to be happy with what you do or that they will always disagree so you just have to move on with your life for you. I know that is where I am at in my life. I am glad I have learned fairly early on. In the long run I think at least my mom respects me more for it. If that makes sense.
I think Celeste did a Ng did an amazing job of creating such a harrowing and tragic story. I would for sure read more.
I am not sure how to say it in a way. I guess I see the characters moving on easily after Lydia's departure. Her mother no long has to drill her everyday. Nath doesn't have to let her down anymore.
I am really curious as to what happens with James and Louise? I didn't really know if they every truly got back together ,and if so was because it was what they thought they should do? and not for the best? What do others think?
The ending was satisfactory for me. Stories that end nice and neat are not realistic to me.I identified with the entire family. This story made me wonder how much my own family has told each other about our lives.
I have already recommended this book to others and would read more by this author.
When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She got treated like trash because she presented herself as such.
Mod
I don't have the book anymore, but didn't James kind of allude to the fact that he was completely done with Louise? That this particular chapter of his life was over? I'm left wondering will James and Marilyn be able to successfully mend their ways. Hopeful.
Wilhelmina wrote: "Since we knew from the beginning about Lydia's death, I think that it was probably as positive an outcome as we could have hoped for. I didn't really identify with any of the characters, but Lydia ..."I completely agree with Mina that the ending was about as good as one could reasonably expect. It's hopeful with the possibilty that positive change is in the future. And given that Lydia is dead before the book begins, what more could there be?
I came across this this morning on Facebook and thought I'd throw it in, as it seems relevant to the book and the characters, especially James, actually. I "liked" Junot Diaz a while back so he put this up although it's originally excerps from The New Yorker article. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201....NOVEMBER 3, 2014 ISSUE
Real Gone Girl
Young Jean Lee’s identity plays.
BY HILTON ALS
...
In her feminist-minded works, in which characters sometimes talk more to the audience than they do to one another, Lee had built drama around racially driven self-hatred, the naked body, and patriarchy, among other things....
Lee’s imagination is associative. Her work is, for the most part, fuelled by memories and the associations they inspire. While those memories are often painful, they are part of the solid ground her characters stand on. And yet, for a long time, Lee didn’t feel as if she were on solid ground herself. Her parents, James and Inn-Soo Lee, were born into a turbulent, divided Korea, and immigrated to the United States in 1976, when Lee was two years old, so that James could earn a doctorate in chemical engineering. Growing up in the small town of Pullman, Washington, Lee, unlike her father, was an indifferent student. Not engaging in school was, perhaps, her way of not dealing with the casual and not so casual racism that was directed her way by the predominantly white students there: if she didn’t excel, she wouldn’t risk standing out, being seen. But, at the University of California at Berkeley, where she majored in English, she worked with the Shakespeare scholars Stephen Greenblatt and Stephen Booth, who recognized her gifts. As a graduate student at Berkeley, Lee began a dissertation on “King Lear.”...
After each resounding slap, Lee analyzes its impact; cruelty, like acting, can be rehearsed. Soon, the critical distance in her voice as she evaluates each slap and its effect as a theatrical device starts to make us feel worried, tense. Lights up on Korean-American (a character in her play):
KOREAN-AMERICAN: Have you ever noticed how most Asian-Americans are slightly brain-damaged from having grown up with Asian parents? It’s like being raised by monkeys—these retarded monkeys who can barely speak English and who are too evil to understand anything besides conformity and status. Most of us hate these monkeys from an early age and try to learn how to be human from school or television, but the result is always tainted by this subtle or not so subtle retardation. Asian people from Asia are even more brain-damaged, but in a different way, because they are the original monkey.
anyway, I thought it an interesting article about this Asian-American playwright, so I thought I'd share.
Virginie wrote: "When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She got treated like trash because she p..."ouch. trash? really?
jo wrote: "Virginie wrote: "When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She got treated like tr..."Ok...She presented herself as an "all you can eat buffet" and he obviously did not digest it very well.
Is that better? lol.
Mod
Wow, thanks for sharing. That paragraph that starts KOREAN-AMERICAN. So revealing, merciless.
Virginie wrote: "When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She got treated like trash because she p..."James is at least equally culpable (he broke vows; she didn't) and he gets to go back and mend his marriage without even a word of kindness to Louise. That's just cruel, in my opinion.
I feel like we know so little about Louise. I kind of felt like she was probably in some kind of place or grief in her own life that made it easy for James to into her arms. We really do not get to understand what she think and where she is at in her life? Good point Mina about the words from Louise to James. Do you think that she is surprised or sad when James does leave?
Wilhelmina wrote: "Virginie wrote: "When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She got treated like tr..."Hmmm, tough one...
I do not condone James's behaviour in anyway and yes he drove himself to Louise's place and knew what it was looking for.
I guess I feel strongly about how Louise is getting what she deserves because she did not need to get involved in that manner. That path was never going to result in anything positive.
James was grieving and yes definitely did not go for the best way to do so, but I do not know what Louise's excuse for her behaviour was apart from taking advantage of a situation where the people involved at are their lowest point.
So, no kindness is fair I think...I do not recall her being kind to Marilyn while hiding James in her apartment.
James however deserves to be slapped into next week and then some...
He's lucky that Marilyn is taking him back after his indiscretion. At the same time, maybe she owed James one after leaving him and the kids all those years ago.
Virginie wrote: "Wilhelmina wrote: "Virginie wrote: "When it comes to Louise, I am pretty unapologetic about what I think. Don't mess with another woman 's man, no matter what. It will come back and haunt you. She ..."I agree with your sentiments, Virginie. Although when it comes to adultery/cheating with young single people, I put more onus on the married person. It's not that James is more to blame, it's that he has made a promised commitment to his wife and family. Louisa has apparently never been married nor had children, so she does not understand that commitment the way James does, or should.
Rebecca wrote: "I think I agree Virginie about the the final pages and ending. I also think the reader was left to decide. Which is always frustrating to me but also nice for writers to make that choice for an end..."Thanks for sharing this, Rebecca. I have some experience trying to please oblivious parents, though not to the same degree, and I applaud your efforts to define your own life for yourself.
Columbus wrote: "Was this a satisfactory ending for you? Do you feel the author was attempting to intentionally make the ending ambiguous or was it rather clear cut to you?
Which character did you identify with ..."
I was happy with the ending, certainly much happier than I thought I would be for most of the book. But most of that was just finding out the Lydia had chosen life, had chosen to challenge her parents' definition of herself. I found that very affirming, despite the fact that her efforts went horribly wrong.
The rest of the family is left in a hopeful but ambiguous state, but the unfinished aspect didn't bother me because if it was going to be a happy ending for them, then it would be something that would take months and years to accomplish. The book seemed to be more about how they had all gotten to this point then about what would happen next.
My take on what comes next is that James and Marilyn were going to try to communicate more and make things work, Marilyn was going to try to do things differently with Hannah than she had with Lydia, and Nath is on his own path in college, maybe tempered by a new understanding of his family and of Jack. Did I miss anything?
Whether any of this will go as planned, is of course unknown, but it all seems possible, and the family seems bound together in ways that make some sort of resolution inevitable. My one outstanding concern was for Marilyn and Hannah. Saying to yourself you will treat this daughter differently is not the same as doing it, and I have a vague fear that Marilyn may think of Hannah as her "chance to make up for her mistakes with Lydia". She may not realize it, but if she thinks of it that way, she will again be putting pressure on Hannah to be something she is not - a stand-in for Marilyn's quest for forgiveness from Lydia. Hopefully she will be able to separate the two things, and try to forgive herself separately from repairing her relationship with Hannah.
When reading a book, especially one with this much turmoil, I sometimes would rather be left to fill in my own blanks. The ending did not frustrate me at all.
I thought the ending was satisfactory for the storyline.This book was about an unexpected tragedy that happened to a family which is very often never neat or tidy especially when there is no definite answer to why.
At the end of the story the whole family is still grieving and each person will go through the grief process differently and be changed by this event in ways many will not be able to process for many year.
I do not know if I identified with any of the characters per se but I did identify with some of the themes/concept presented in the story. Parents having dreams/goals for their children, discrimination against race/gender sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant.
I would recommend this book to others, especially bookclubs (and have recommended to others). I really enjoy books that generate diverse discussions like this book did.
Jean wrote: "When reading a book, especially one with this much turmoil, I sometimes would rather be left to fill in my own blanks. The ending did not frustrate me at all."well said. i concur.
I posted this as a separate thread, but nobody responded. Just in case somebody is still interested:>>>>>>>>>>>>>Video Chat with Celeste Ng<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I joined the Ford Audio Book Club in order to get a free audio book of Everything I Never Told You. That group has scheduled a video chat (on Google Hangout) with the author on November 6 at 2PM EST.
I have never tried Hangouts, but I'm game. If any LFPC members want to participate, you need to join the Ford group,
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Then follow the instructions in the post here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Update<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I had a test run of Google Hangout this afternoon with the moderator, and it is so cool!!
Mod
Also, Sarah joined the Ford Audio Book Club and have invited members for the video chat (on Google Hangout) with the author on November 6 at 2PM EST. Sounds like fun!
Thanks again everyone and join us for our next discussion of the intense, An Untamed State, which is now underway!
Happy Reading!
Columbus wrote: "What a great conversation we've had this month discussing the Lee clan (Marilyn, James, Lydia, Nath and Hannah). Any final thoughts on this conflicted, complicated family? Some folk are still readi..."Thanks, Columbus! Great moderating, as always!
I won't be able to do the video chat, but hopefully someone will update us when the video gets posted to Goodreads for viewing! (I'll try to keep a lookout for it...)
Michael wrote: "I won't be able to do the video chat, but hopefully someone will update us when the video gets posted to Goodreads for viewing! (I'll try to keep a lookout for it...)" I'll be looking out for it.
Columbus wrote: ""Lydia is dead. But they don't know this yet."What's your thoughts on opening lines in books and this one in particular? This one has received a lot of attention from reviewers/critics. Gimmicky?..."
I must admit that every time a book starts off that way I think the author is trying to copy The Lovely Bones even though I'm sure other books started off that way before Lovely, the fact that that line got so much attention just makes me think here we go again.
How do you guys feel about Amazon calling "Everything I Never Told You" the Best Book of 2014? Agree?http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/amazons...
no, but I'm sure it will help sell books.
Well for the this group of judges it was the best book of the year. :) But based on my reading of 2014 released books would not be my top choice but I think it is going to be high on my list. It is certainly one that I have recommended to others.
When we get to December, we'l have to post our own favorites of the year.
More kudos to you, Bill, for keeping us aware and able to discuss all of the best books!
Hmm, let's see, I've read two books published in 2014, and this one was my favorite. I guess I agree! (It was close, though. Time of the Locust was the other one).I agree: kudos to Bill!
Aw shucks, I'm blushing...Naw, I just put em out there, you guys pick em!
I would have liked to see Time of the Locust. Although I did like the idea of the storyline for EINTY it was original for sure. I was thinking that probably gave it some edge.
Mod
Excellent idea, Mina!
an insightful piece. I appreciated their thoughtful conversation, and especially those of the Asian American guests. This remains one of my top reads of 2014. It raised critical issues about Asian Americans and represents the ultimate example of a "family system" cf. family therapy.http://thedianerehmshow.org/audio/#/s...
"Celeste the Great"
I finished this book yesterday and it's strong five stars. It'll resonate in my mind for a long time. And I like the ending, if not the death it would be a happy end. It's kind of a happy end and I'm happy that Marilyn and James found each other again. Lydia was an extreme people pleaser and unfortunately she paid the highest price for that. At least she should've learnt to swim earlier. She was a good girl who wanted to gain a comfort for herself and Jack occurred to be a completely different person that I thought at the beginning of the book.
I finished this book yesterday and it's strong five stars. It'll resonate in my mind for a long time. And I like the ending, if not the death it would be a happy end. It's kind of a happy end and I'm happy that Marilyn and James found each other again. Lydia was an extreme people pleaser and unfortunately she paid the highest price for that. At least she should've learnt to swim earlier. She was a good girl who wanted to gain a comfort for herself and Jack occurred to be a completely different person that I thought at the beginning of the book.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
Time of the Locust (other topics)The Lovely Bones (other topics)
An Untamed State (other topics)
Boy, Snow, Bird (other topics)
Golden Boy (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Abigail Tarttelin (other topics)Gunnar Myrdal (other topics)
Gunnar Myrdal (other topics)
Susan Choi (other topics)
Celeste Ng (other topics)
I agree that it was an accident: for some reason her first "drowning" with Nath put it in her head that all she needed to do was "kick"; she downplayed how much of the swimming Nath was doing for her, because she needed to believe she could do things without Nath's help at this stage in her life. She used this attempt at saving herself as a way to seal the promise that she would stop pretending to be someone else to her parents. My one problem with this was the idea that this family, who taught Nath to swim and lived by the lake, would not have spent more time teaching Lydia to swim, or at least instilling in her how dangerous the water was.
Ignoring that technicality, if we start with the idea that she meant to live, that she is actually attempting a rebirth, it is certainly a bitter tragedy, but I think it opens up an answer to Mina's question: "Can anyone see any way to avoid a bad ending for her?" I think I can, which makes the ultimate chain of events even more sad for me. The heartbreaking thing (well, okay, one of the heartbreaking things) was that Lydia was just starting to find her voice. She had taken a practice run at challenging her Mother earlier, and now she was solidifying her resolve to make her own way for herself. If she had just burned an effigy of her old self on the beach instead of trying to rescue herself from drowning, the story might have gone in a much different way. She wouldn't have drowned, she would have returned home with a firm resolve, and she may have found the strength to shake things up in the family. This was a new idea for her, so there is no real way to know how successful she would have been, but I can imagine her making things better bit by bit. (Although I agree, it is sad to say, that her death was much more of a catalyst for change in the family than her words probably would have been, but there was no guarantee that the family wouldn't have just fallen apart; they were very lucky, or maybe just had more connections than they realized.)