Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Everything I Never Told You
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Discussion: Everything I Never Told You
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Reminder: discussing through chapter 6.
Columbus wrote: "....another chapter and still little mention of poor Hannah.Reminder: discussing through chapter 6."
I cannot remember quite which chapter it was in, but I do recall Hannah being the only one watching her sister getting closer to the lake and her curiosity leading her to that same place "to see what it was like".
It seems that she felt the only way to feel closeness to her sister was to essentially relive her last moments and the scary part is that everyone else is too busy with their own feelings to even notice the most fragile one.
The only scene I recall Hannah being close to anyone was when she sat with her brother shoulder to shoulder listening to their mother's silence over the phone.
Can she only be gifted with closeness only when sharing pain?
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-Chapter 5 opens with Hannah retracing the steps Lydia may have made from their home to the lake. She sneaks out the house: "although upstairs Marilyn and James and Nath all lie awake, searching for sleep, no one hears: Hannah's body knows all the secrets of silence"
-Officers investigating the case informs Marilyn and James that from what they can tell, she didn't have many friends which is of course news to them. Marilyn becomes defensive when the Ofc asks if Lydia may have tried to hurt herself. Marilyn: "Lydia was very happy. She loved school. She'd never go out in that boat by herself....."why aren't you looking for whoever took her out there?"
-James and Marilyn argue and disagree over the best approach to take with the officers. James leaves and ends up in Louisa's bed. He has second thoughts: "This was a mistake. I love my wife. This must never happen again." James, James, James! His daughter has died, family in turmoil and he's having an affair with his assistant. What do you make of this?
-Marilyn finds Marlboro's and an open box of condoms in her daughters book bag. So, Innocent Lydia is not so innocent after all?
Columbus wrote: "Finally! -Chapter 5 opens with Hannah retracing the steps Lydia may have made from their home to the lake. She sneaks out the house: "although upstairs Marilyn and James and Nath all lie awake, s..."
I felt somewhat sorry for Marilyn when I heard her say that. Having some experience with depression, I am quite aware that "always smiling" can be a symptom of depression/loneliness, though many people assume the opposite. She had dug in deep to her biased impression of Lydia, and I almost expected her to say that some sick lunatic had broken into the house and planted those Marlboros and condoms in her daughter's bag! What a sinking feeling that must have been.
I am just aching at James' behavior, but I was also horrified about the fight and Marilyn's use of the word "kowtow" and his reaction. I confess to not understanding the origin of "kowtow" before reading this, and Wikipedia tells me:
Kowtow, which is borrowed from kau tau in Cantonese, or koutou in Mandarin Chinese, is the act of deep respect shown by prostration, that is, kneeling and bowing so low as to have one's head touching the ground.
The dichotomy of this highly respectful cultural element and its use as a (racial) slur is striking. It reminds me how painful words can be, on so many levels, and how the dominant culture can bury the harm under denial and ignorance. I'm sure I've used that word before in a derogatory fashion, not understanding its roots, and I'm glad to have been corrected at this late juncture.
Other thoughts on the racism: I'm surprised they are still using "Oriental" in 1977, even in James' internal thoughts. But it does seem like something that was just starting to be openly challenged when I was growing up, which is about that time period. I thought the brief description of James' parents and the "paper son" phenomenon was powerful; that was another thing I wasn't aware of, although it matches my expectations about U.S. immigration laws.
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-Opens with Marilyn still "away." Family concerned.
-James slaps Nath so hard his teeth rattled after he comments, "Daddy, can you believe people can go practically to the moon and still come back"
-Marilyn becomes pregnant in Toledo. Would she have returned otherwise?
What does the book title mean?
Wait - she didn't become pregnant in Toledo; she found out she was pregnant. That would have been an entirely different story!
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Oh, right. She finds out she's pregnant. That's what I meant to say.
This is the chapter where I truly disliked both parents - to be honest with you. James for hitting his son and Marilyn for leaving her kids. I just thought this was totally irresponsible and selfish. I'm curious as to what she would've done had she not found out she was pregnant.
I watched the video interview with the author prior to reading the book and she spoke about changing James and Marilyn's character somewhat to show a little more empathy after she, herself, became pregnant. Just makes me wonder what these two would've been like had this life event not occurred.
How sad, Marilyn pretty much sees her pregnancy as a death sentence and will convey to Hannah that dreadful feeling that she was never wanted.
well, the last pregnancy ensured the death sentence imposed by the first pregnancy was not commuted. for me, that was what was really sad. all three children essentially destroyed her sense of self worth, or realization. she even tried to escape, and like Michael in the Godfather series, just when she thought she was out, they dragged her back in. She never intended to marry originally until after she went to med school, then she got pregnant. and no one ever recovered. a plane crash in slow motion. Her desperation sets everything into play. However, I agree it was dreadful the way Hannah was treated, but it seems everyone basically ignored her for a long time.
George wrote: "well, the last pregnancy ensured the death sentence imposed by the first pregnancy was not commuted. for me, that was what was really sad. all three children essentially destroyed her sense of self..."George, your statement, "A plane crash in slow motion", is how I felt from the beginning of this book. It was so sad to watch the family slowly crash and no one seemed the wiser.
Jean wrote: "George wrote: "well, the last pregnancy ensured the death sentence imposed by the first pregnancy was not commuted. for me, that was what was really sad. all three children essentially destroyed he..."Yes, this was a family that talked but never communicated with each other. The marriage just required too much work with the baggage that the parents brought to it from the beginning. So they both concentrated on making sure the children had the "childhood/goals" that they wanted for themselves and never saw their children for who are, what they wanted, and never what was really happening in their lives. The parents were just so miserable for having to "settle" into a marriage living in a small Midwestern town.
I agree completely with what all of you have said. The only way that these parents can live with this life that they did not choose is to try to force their daughter to fulfill their own lost dreams - a recipe for disaster.
Virginie wrote: "The only scene I recall Hannah being close to anyone was when she sat with her brother shoulder to shoulder listening to their mother's silence over the phone.Can she only be gifted with closeness only when sharing pain?"
Actually, Virginie, that scene was when Nath and Lydia listened to their Mom's silent call from Toledo; she was still pregnant with Hannah at the time. I don't think I've seen any moments of closeness for Hannah prior to Lydia's death, does anyone remember any? In the aftermath of Lydia's death, there is the scene in Chapter 6 with Nath telling Hannah about the time Lydia fell in the water that same summer when their Mom left. Hannah moves closer to Nath on the dock, and he lets her. It's almost as if now that Lydia is gone there is room for Hannah in Nath's life, possibly the rest of the family, too.
This actually seems to mirror Nath's experience with Lydia. When they were kids Nath felt the only way to be "seen" was if Lydia disappeared into the lake. His instincts, at least, appear to be right. No one could be appreciated for themselves (not even Lydia) as long as Lydia was the center of so much attention.
As for your question about the title, Columbus, it's funny: when I knew Lydia had died I had thought perhaps it was about all the things Lydia never told the family. But now it appears to be more about what the whole family has not been telling each other.
Michael wrote: "Virginie wrote: "The only scene I recall Hannah being close to anyone was when she sat with her brother shoulder to shoulder listening to their mother's silence over the phone.Can she only be gift..."
I just saw what I wrote, I think Hannah must have been on my mind when I was commenting.
I like the point you made about Nath's experience with Lydia in his life and having to imagine a life without her to be "seen" and that it mirrors Hannah's experience and position in the family.
It is quite tragic that they would need to both feel this way about Lydia and that for them this may be the only way to become relevant in the eyes of their parent.
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We're now discussing thru chapter 9 of the book until the 20th of the month. Any thoughts?
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Can she only be gift..."
Michael, and that's why I asked about the book title because there appeared to be multiple meanings there. I remember the author explaining the title in one of her interviews but don't recall her explanation exactly.
Columbus, do you have any of your wonderful chapter summaries for 7, 8, 9? Your "Cliff notes" have been great and help refresh my memory! If not, I should be able to post something once I get the book in my hand again.Great discussion so far!
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-"Every day, James drove home from the college.....mulling over the slights of the day: how two little girls, hopscotching on the corner, had seen him brake at the stop sign and thrown pebbles at his car; how Stan Hewitt had asked him the difference between a spring roll and an egg roll...etc
The author called these "slights" and it certainly wouldn't be elevated to outright racist acts, or would they?
-Asian / 1970,s / America / Mix-raced family-
Where were we as a nation as it pertains to racism in the Asian community? Obviously on a much smaller scale than the systematic racism experienced by other groups. I think the author is reaching for a wider dialogue about this. (I'm certain there's a better question to be asked because I don't feel I'm getting to the crux of the real issue.)
Columbus wrote: "Chapter 7-"Every day, James drove home from the college.....mulling over the slights of the day: how two little girls, hopscotching on the corner, had seen him brake at the stop sign and thrown p..."
Obviously on a much smaller scale than the systematic racism experienced by other groups. well, yes and no. We actually owe most of our immigration laws to attempts by the Federal government to exclude Chinese and later Japanese immigrants, going back to the 19th century. It wasn't until the Chinese were brought it to help build the railroads, but refused to go back home that anyone gave any thought to a legal system for immigration. Law suits to extend citizenship brought on behalf of the children born in the US led to the extension of the 14th amendment to all children born in the US by the Supreme Court. Asians were excluded as legal immigrants in the early 20th century and it wasn't until 1965 that immigration laws were changed to apply equally to all nationalities. and so forth, so there was certainly quite a bit of systemic legal racism.
now as for these "slights", I would tend to say the outright racism the family experienced was fairly limited, and it's clear that others have certainly experienced more overt forms, but it's also clear they were never really accepted as part of the community in Ohio. James appears to have lost his chance for a professorship at Harvard to racism though.
I remember a study done in the 40s or so on the effect of racism on black Americans found that people living in the North appeared to have higher rates of serious emotional complications than people living in the South. So, I think the point was it was easier in many respects dealing with overt racism.
George wrote: "I remember a study done in the 40s or so on the effect of racism on black Americans found that people living in the North appeared to have higher rates of serious emotional complications than people living in the South. So, I think the point was it was easier in many respects dealing with overt racism. "That is interesting. I'm glad you say "in many respects" since it is not a clear issue in my mind. It might be mentally traumatic to be the victim of "closeted" racism, struggling to decipher what is racism and what is just meanness or randomness, but I imagine many people would prefer that to overt physical violence. I am speaking from white privilege, though, and can't speak for others.
To avoid any arguments of "which race has it worse", I will just say it is clear that racism against Asians in America is historical, legal, and pervasive, and it has certainly affected the ability of this family to thrive. As to Columbus' question about the 70's, I can't speak from much experience. I was born in '68 and only had a vague grasp of what was going on in that decade. I do remember wearing a t-shirt that said "I know karate (and 14 other Japanese words)" when I was maybe 13, so that was the 80's and the fetishism of Asian culture was certainly present. (I have this nagging feeling that the shirt actually said "Chinese", and it wouldn't surprise me if the misinformation was that bad back then, because it is almost as bad now.)
I commented earlier about the use of "Oriental" instead of Asian, or country/culture-specific adjectives. Because "Oriental" implies the "exotic" or "mysterious", it does not allow people in Asian cultures to be "seen" for who they are culturally or individually. My mother still uses "Oriental" as the default, and her daughter-in-law is Taiwanese. So it does seem it was entrenched in that generation, only challenged more visibly later. I'm using the word "seen" here purposefully, because it seems that if the family is not seeing each other, and they are not being seen by the subtly racist community in which they live either, wow, they are invisible.
All what is said above is true.Let's also not forget that the Japanese was our enemy in WWII and then there was the Korean War many Americans dying in these wars caused additional "hatred" and discrimination against Asians. And while the father was Chinese - many Americans at this time really did not care/could distinguish between Asians.
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-Lydia increasingly being put under pressure to perform and having a difficult time handling it. Kingdom, phylum and class -no problem, but, the course got more difficult. "My daughter is a genius" Marilyn tells Dr. Wolff. An A in a college class and the only girl, too."...."All her life she had heard her mother's heart drumming one beat: doctor, doctor, doctor. There just seemed to be pressure all around - and with everyone. Overwhelming!
-Lydia hiding her brother's Harvard acceptance letters (because even though he applied to many top ranked schools there was only one his father would approve). Seriously, Lydia?! She had said previously, only Nath had made it bearable to live there. --pressure mounting. Then lo and behold Jack shows up at the door delivering the letter Nath had been waiting for. Lydia's plan foiled.
-Lydia's Christmas presents from dad are all books about winning friends and influencing people (yeah, them books). He says later, "I just thought it would be helpful. Though you probably know everything about that already. I wish I had it when I was your age." Perhaps thinking he could gave charmed Marilyn's mother; that they may have hired him at Harvard. "I thought you'd like it." -- With an edge in her voice. "I love it. Thanks, Daddy."
-Lydia and Jack wind up in the same class: Electricity and Magnetism where there's some commonality between them. Lydia and Jack become very friendly. Lydia has an ulterior motive in mind, however. I think around this point my feelings toward Lydia changed a bit. No, not a bit, a lot. I understood some frustration and pushback with her parents actions, but taking it out on your brother who has supported you throughout and been by your side just left me a little cold.
-While hanging out, Jack asks what's it like being the only Chinese family in all of Middlewood. Lydia says "people decide what you're like before they get to know you. Kind of like what you did with me. They think they know all about you. Except you're never who they think you are." With this, Jack surmised they would never be friends now. He hated Nath and after that statement he would hate her, too. What's up with Jack?
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-Lydia increasingly being put under pressure to perform and having a difficult time handling it. Kingdom, phylum and class -no problem, but, the course got more difficult. "My daughter i..."
On another issue, I typed this on my iPad notepad with bold and italics used. Why doesn't it transfer when I cut and paste it? (This is for those who do it so effortlessly). And while we're at it, if I want to add a spoiler and only allow those who select "spoiler" to open it?
When I read about the books Lydia received from her father - my heart just broke for Lydia and wanted to scream at her father - that is so not what you give a teenage girl at Christmas!Lydia's parents do not even see her - they see themselves and want so much to go back and fix their pasts to they could achieve their past dreams.
Most teenagers find a way to rebel against their parents - sometimes consciously and sometimes unconsciously - sometimes in minor ways and sometimes in major ways. But I think rebellion does alert parents to try to figure out what is going on with them. While reading the book I wondered when Lydia was just going to rebel against her parents or just lose her cool one time with them.
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I'll see if I can't find it. it was written by a Scandinavian psychologist. I read the book back in college in the early 70s. The point is not that psychological damage is worse than physical damage but that the psychological damage caused by racism can be quite profound even when the possibility of physical danger is not such an issue. with overt racism, one knows where one stands, more or less.
ok, it's An American Dilemma, the Negro Problem and Modern Democracy by Gunnar Myrdal.the description in Amazon says:
In this landmark effort to understand African American people in the New World, Gunnar Myrdal provides deep insight into the contradictions of American democracy as well as a study of a people within a people. The title of the book, An American Dilemma, refers to the moral contradiction of a nation torn between allegiance to its highest ideals and awareness of the base realities of racial discrimination. The touchstone of this classic is the jarring discrepancy between the American creed of respect for the inalienable rights to freedom, justice, and opportunity for all and the pervasive violations of the dignity of blacks.
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the description in Amazon says:
In this landmark effort to understand African American people in the New Wor..."
George, I think that study is really fascinating on so many levels. I intend to open up to friends for debate soon. That'll be interesting. Michael's response is one I'll use as an example because it's a good one.
Myrdal's research was far reaching and quite thorough from what I can tell. Very, very influential. This book is in my library system, but i think this is one I'll have to purchase. Thank's so, so much for bringing this to our attention.
Gunnar Myrdal An American Dilemma: The Negro
Problem and Modern Democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Ameri...
Columbus wrote: "Chapter 7-Lydia increasingly being put under pressure to perform and having a difficult time handling it. Kingdom, phylum and class -no problem, but, the course got more difficult. "My daughter i..."
I think this is when the book changed for me. Lydia in some ways becomes more real. We get to see her through her own eyes instead of the perfect image her parents have created her to be. But once again we see the loneliness and despair of yet another member of the family. And this is the person that the family revolves around. Her actions from hiding Naths letters to becoming friends with jack was her way of trying to get attention but only attention from Nath who understood her best. She was in a lot of pain.
Columbus wrote: "George wrote: "ok, it's An American Dilemma, the Negro Problem and Modern Democracy by Gunnar Myrdal.the description in Amazon says:
In this landmark effort to understand African American people..."
You're welcome. It's an outstanding book, written in 54, so a bit dated. It certainly impressed me when I read it, since I still remember the book some 40 years later. it will take a bit of work to get through all of it. While the point I was trying to make is part of it, it's only one small point in this work.
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-James is continuing to unravel and it's sad to see. He's lying to his family about his whereabouts "I have conferences, meetings"; he snaps at Nath for being home and even while looking for food in the refrigerator, "You're wasting power", "Do you always have to be in the way", You're just home all day. Do you have any friends at all?" Nath responds, "None. I'm not like you. No conferences or meetings. And you smell like perfume. From your meeting, I guess?" James goes ballistic (again) and grabs him so hard his knuckles crack and among other nasty remarks responds "you don't know anything about my life. Just like you didn't know anything about your sister's."
-Ofc Fiske calls and informs them that the cause of death is suicide. Marilyn is not convinced and makes it known. Then the killer, "If she were a white girl, they'd keep looking." Now race enters the picture again but not since the incident at the wedding or am I mistaken? James, "If she were a white girl, none of this would ever have happened" It continues, James - "Your mother was right, after all. You should have married someone more like you. He leaves and returns back to Louisa. "You're the kind of girl I should have married."
-What do you make of the scene with Lydia, Jack, Nath and Hannah down by the lake? Hannah's reaction to Jack and doubting that Jack could ever hurt anyone.
-Marilyn confronts Louisa at her home and asks about James. I expected this scene to be a little more confrontational but to no avail. What did you think about it?
-The author seems to make much of the footprints on the ceiling. Was there some sibling bond there? Anything more to that?
so Michael, are you an Edward Said fan or what? Orientalism is his most famous work and specifically picks up your points "Because "Oriental" implies the "exotic" or "mysterious", it does not allow people in Asian cultures to be "seen" for who they are culturally or individually."
However, in his book he's talking about the Middle East rather than East Asia. And he's referencing depictions in art and literature as well.
In any case, I was referencing Gunnar Myrdal's work as it seemed to me to be a large part of what was going on in this book and although the various incidents are largely compatively minor in nature, they profoundly affect this family, propelling it to its implosion. I would agree I would generally prefer this sort of activity to having my house burned down though.
Wow, lots of activity! Where to begin?George, thanks for the reply; I've never read Said's work so I will add him to my list. Ditto to the Gunnar Myrdal book, thanks for following up on the discussion and clarifying some things, Columbus and George.
Thanks for sharing your personal story, Columbus, it seems to me to confirm the connection between the "sneaky" racism and the ultimately physical and grim reality. The emotional and psychological injuries may not be as visible (in larger examples like 1967 Detroit, and in small ecosystems like the family in this book) but it seems to me they must surely have a physical effect, and exacerbate the damage caused by legal, physical, and more overt forms of racism.
Beverly wrote: "When I read about the books Lydia received from her father - my heart just broke for Lydia and wanted to scream at her father - that is so not what you give a teenage girl at Christmas!Lydia's pa..."
I totally agree. I feel like I've gotten gifts like that, but luckily they weren't the only ones! I want to figure out a way to give the parents what they need. They are so obviously not getting it, and fake dreams for their children is not doing it.
Columbus commented on feeling cold toward Lydia in these chapters, and Continualknowledge felt Lydia was more real. I was kind of in between. I already understood her pain, but now it seemed like it was leaking out into the family, with her dysfunctional solution to Nath's leaving her. I was getting worried about how events were going to play out.
Columbus wrote: "On another issue, I typed this on my iPad notepad with bold and italics used. Why doesn't it transfer when I cut and paste it? (This is for those who do it so effortlessly). And while we're at it, if I want to add a spoiler and only allow those who select "spoiler" to open it?"The Goodreads pages only do formatting with html tags, like
< b > This sentence would be bold if there were no spaces around the b's. < /b >
So even though the text may be bold and italics on your iPad, if it doesn't have the little < > tags it won't format. Same with spoilers, those are done with < spoiler > and < /spoiler > around the text you want to hide (again, you have to remove the spaces around spoiler, I put them there so you can see what I typed, otherwise, it would all just get hidden.
If you just click on "(some html is ok)" above your comment box, you can see a list of all the tags.
So actually, it is a lot of work! We only make it appear easy!
I was able to get my book last night. What a great discussion going. I can't wait to read more post as I get into the book.
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Oh, thanks, this helps a lot!
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Ok, Rebecca, we're giving you a total of 3 days to catch up!
Are we up to chapter 8 then?
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I've provided Cliff notes through chapter 8 but we're discussing through chapter 9.
Okay. I am on to catch up. :) Did anyone else get the Ford audiobook invite for the book?
Rebecca wrote: "Okay. I am on to catch up. :) Did anyone else get the Ford audiobook invite for the book?"
Glad to have you, Rebecca. No audiobook here. Columbus' Cliff notes are great! Thanks, Columbus!
I agree. Great job. Thank you Michael. Good to see you on this one.
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I just downloaded the audiobook via the Ford Audiobook Club. I can listen or read and not lose my place. Awesome.
Columbus wrote: "Oh, thank you. And thanks to this great discussion I'm tempted to change my rating. Didn't think that could happen to me, but..."hhhmmm, I am curious. What was your rating?
Michael wrote: "Beverly wrote: "When I read about the books Lydia received from her father - my heart just broke for Lydia and wanted to scream at her father - that is so not what you give a teenage girl at Christ..."This is interesting, I actually enjoyed seeing the real Lydia. Lydia the teenager, Lydia with all the imperfections. It seems that only at this point were we able to see what she wanted and not just what her parents wanted for her.
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hhhmmm, I am curious. What was your rating?"
Virginie, I work in a world of half stars so my true rating is 3.5. Half stars are not an option, obviously, so I lowered to a 3. But, so often I've found members change their rating based on any number of things in a discussion. I'm certainly influenced by many of the comments here and thinking maybe the superlative story and writing by Ng trumps the earlier issue I had with the writing perspective or point of view. We'll see.
Columbus wrote: "Virginie wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Oh, thank you. And thanks to this great discussion I'm tempted to change my rating. Didn't think that could happen to me, but..."hhhmmm, I am curious. What was y..."
Hey, Columbus, would you be willing to edit this thread topic so that it refers to Everything I Never Told You? It seems like you were able to do that before if memory serves, and then we can see everyone's rating of the book, which I always find interesting. Unless people don't like that feature for some reason.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
Time of the Locust (other topics)The Lovely Bones (other topics)
An Untamed State (other topics)
Boy, Snow, Bird (other topics)
Golden Boy (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Abigail Tarttelin (other topics)Gunnar Myrdal (other topics)
Gunnar Myrdal (other topics)
Susan Choi (other topics)
Celeste Ng (other topics)
I found that scene horrifyin..."
Yes, the pool scene was definitely troubling. I thought the author did an incredible job with this scene and of course this gives her an opportunity to inform her audience that Lydia can't or doesn't swim and stays at a neighbors house.
But, the racist remarks reminded me of America's long history of racism in the nations swimming pools for African Americans, which obviously extended to other groups. But, the "chink can't find China" remark really brought it home for me. Minority males in the water was especially frowned upon because of the close proximity to Caucasian females - along with other reasons they used of course.