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[2020] 8th Mini Poll Results
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Ellie
(last edited Aug 07, 2019 07:54AM)
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Aug 07, 2019 07:53AM
I wasn't arguing for adding multi-weeks to future polls by the way (I don't care either way), just that you can't tell why people voted the way they did unless they tell you.
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Mod
Could we just have a yes/no prompt on the next poll that says, "Do you want to include beauty, brains, brawn prompt on the list?"
Where does it say BBB became a runner up?
Emily wrote: "Whew I'm just catching up on this discussion!Could we just have a yes/no prompt on the next poll that says, "Do you want to include beauty, brains, brawn prompt on the list?""
If we do that, we could have had a poll asking do you want transgender etc. or not. then we could be second voting everything suggested.
Mod
I think with the B,B,B the reason for possible adding it is because if the multi week poll had been treated like a regular poll it would have been in the top.
I think the main difference is other close-call prompts can be resubmitted for a second chance, but BBB can't be.
All I can say is I'm really glad I'm not one of the mods right now! They had to set up guidelines for how the polls worked ahead of time, otherwise we wouldn't really know what we were voting on, and the guidelines seemed reasonable before the vote. And they really can't change the rules retroactively (by say, including a second multi-week prompt that was clearly very popular after they specified one winner), but it seems a large number of people going to be unhappy no matter how this is handled.
Personally, I enjoy the multi-week prompts, and really liked the BBB prompt (though I'm reasonably happy with the prompt that won as well) so I'd be happy if it could be included somehow. I like the idea of voting yes/no on whether to include it also, in a future poll, but apparently there's push back even on that idea!
I understand that it’s a complicated situation and there are reasons both to add and not to add the BBB prompt to the winners. But to add another point, if we did allow the BBB prompt to the final list, it would still only be adding a total of 5 winners this week. I know we have had 5 winners during regular weeks before, so it wouldn’t be that outrageous to add it. For what it’s worth, I’m all for adding the BBB prompt to our list :)
It's definitely an interesting discussion. I really like Chinook's idea of just having multi week prompts be part of the normal voting process next year, so then if they win, it's more about the strength of the prompt and less about whether or not it's multi week.It's also interesting because last year we ended up having 2 multi week prompts, the wedding rhyme prompt came out of the dedicated multi week poll, and the 2 books that share a theme/genre won in a normal poll, so we do have a history with multiple multi week prompts and different types of polls.
I tend to agree with Avery that I don't think 5 is too many topics to win in a poll and would love if the group wanted to add the BBB prompt, but that's just me talking as a group member, not a mod.
Does it makes sense to add a question to the next poll- add the prompt B, B, and B or no?? The poll info stated that only 1 prompt would be selected so I feel we need to stick with that. But, if a significant # of members like it and vote to add it, I think that’s fair. But, I don’t want to see it go up against single week prompts.
Pam wrote: "The poll info stated that only 1 prompt would be selected so I feel we need to stick with that.."Yes, as much as I like the BBB prompt, I strongly agree with this. Changing the rules after the vote makes me flash back to the whole 'hanging chads' drama surrounding the Bush vs Gore presidential election. *shudders dramatically*
This prompt-pair is harder than you would think. I'm going with words in the title rather than try to know how themes and stories can contrast in a binary way. Tentatively, I am pairing In a Dark, Dark Wood with To the Lighthouse. Dark/light. Get it?
I really liked the selection of multi-week prompts. Would have been nice to see more that one added to the challenge.
Ron wrote: "This prompt-pair is harder than you would think. I'm going with words in the title rather than try to know how themes and stories can contrast in a binary way. Tentatively, I am pairing ..." I was thinking of doing In a Dark, Dark Wood and The Light Between Oceans for the same light/dark theme, but also it has a bonus opposite of ocean/wood.
I've only had a chance to think about titles for this prompt so far, but my other options are:
Adulting: How to Become a Grown-up in 468 Easy(ish) Steps and Baby Teeth (adult/baby)
The A.B.C. Murders and World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War (A/Z)
The Hopefuls and Hopeless (hopeful/hopeless)
Ron and Avery - I’m also thinking about a Light/Dark pairing with To The Lighthouse or The Light Between Oceans. Being a P K Dick fan, I like A Scanner Darkly as an option.
Just some of the options from my owned TBR:rise/fall:American Pharoah: The Untold Story of the Triple Crown Winner's Legendary Rise/When Rains Fall
in/out & light/shadow: A Lily in the Light/Out of the Shadows
first/final Captain America: The First Avenger #1: First Vengeance/Final Witness
long/short: A Long Fatal Love Chase/A Short History Of England
good/bad: Cooking for Geeks: Real Science, Great Cooks, and Good Food/StrategyMan vs. the Anti-Strategy Squad: Using Strategic Thinking to Defeat Bad Strategy and Save Your Plan
one/many: The Rule of One/Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions
Other possible word pair options:
war/peace
love/hate
lose/keep
go/stay
deep/shallow
never/always
to/from
lost/found
accidental/intentional
fast/slow
public/private
past/future
And some KIS not-quite-binary opposites:
bird/fish
gold/lead
mountain/valley
etc
Mod
If we aren't allowed to suggest multi-weeks going forward, then maybe having the option of adding B, B, and B to the next poll could be something we could consider, strictly because they are limited and not allowed to be re-suggested in normal polls (unlike other close call prompts).
I didn't vote for the winner because several other suggestions looked more fun to fill, but I'm fine with it. It'd be nice to see some of the other ideas submitted again, but I don't think they'll have lots of chances to win against single prompts.
The opposite pairs that I'm considering...bastard - gentleman
The Bastard of Istanbul and A Gentleman in Moscow
run - rest
Rabbit, Run and My Year of Rest and Relaxation
I also have the option of some of the super obvious choices, like beginning - ending, day - night, in - out.
I think my "rejects" list is going to be enormous next year. I would be in favor of adding the BBB to this year's list or a question on the next list voting for or against adding it.
Mod
Mod
- Add a question to the next poll, asking if you want the BBB prompt included
- Multi-prompts, including the BBB prompt, allowed in all future polls, to be treated like a regular prompt.
- No more multi-prompts period
I understand that our approach to the polls can change as the list takes shape, but it doesn't really make sense to me to establish as a group that we would have one multi-week prompt only, and then go back on that decision. Obviously I don't know how the numbers look from the poll, but there seemed to be quite a few people indicating that they didn't want a multi-week prompt at all, and I'm a bit concerned that allowing more multi-week suggestions at this point would essentially force people who were against them in general to downvote any future multi-week suggestions for that reason alone. There's always the possibility that even someone who was against multi-weeks might find some that they really love, but I'm sure there are some who really don't want any more.I find it a bit confusing that there is concern about changing the rules after the fact to allow in the runner up, which one of the mods had stated would have been on the list under normal circumstances, while at the same time saying that changing the rule we'd decided about one multi-week only is fine. Either way, it is a rule/group decision that is being changed after the fact. I agree with what Steve mentioned above - we went into the week thinking it was a "one and done" situation, and that may have affected the way people voted.
Like a few others have mentioned above, I also got the impression that several people voted to have a multi-week prompt at all to avoid "wasting" a week or because there were one or two specific prompts they strongly wanted, and not because they were particularly excited about the multi-week idea in general. Of course, there's always a concern about the silent majority, but I would think that if many of these people had strong opinions about the topic, they might speak up. I know not everyone pays attention to the boards, but I'm inclined to think someone who really felt strongly would want to get their thoughts heard.
Mod
I know I had even suggested very recently that there be a question on this poll, asking if people wanted more prompts included. That would imply we were considering multiple winners days before the poll.
Also, please keep in mind that informal discussions do not count as something being “decided”. Yes, there may have been summaries of discussions at different points but a summary of a discussion does not equal a decision.
Firm decisions are listed in the poll rules.
While it’s true that people can speak up in the discussion, that’s assuming they’re comfortable doing so and that they are even active enough to read detailed posts. We must keep in mind that just because there appears to be a consensus in the discussion, that does not mean it was decided or that it is now a rule.
My personal opinion: I guess I don’t personally see how they’re any different than any other prompt that comes along that members may or may not like. If you have to put it in your bottom votes then that’s your prerogative as a voter.
I guess I didn’t realize there could only be one prompt that won for this round. I assumed it would be treated like any other round, especially if that meant only 3-6 slots were filled on the list. When it said one & done, I thought that referred to one multi-prompt poll, not one winner on that poll.
Laura wrote: "I’m the first one to say that I have a horrid memory. So it’s very possible that I’m forgetting a conversation. But I don’t recall there being a hard decision made that it would be one multi-prompt..."Actually, Laura you did say that Emily's post summed up exactly what we had agreed on so that is probably why everyone thinks it was set it stone. (it's message 177 in the wild discussion if you'd like to re read that), you then, in that message started the discussion about how many multi week prompts we wanted to get out of that one poll. That conversation went through to message 182 which was Sophie's response. Not being pushy just thought I would help you find the discussion so you can see where we are coming from.
I also asked for clarification about the multi-week poll toward the end of July, before the voting happened (message 655 in the Wild Discussion thread, for reference) and a few members at that time told me that the multi-week only poll was the one and only opportunity, as per the previous discussion. No one indicated at the time that this wasn't the case, so I think that's why some of us are confused.Also, if the general understanding was that we were open to more than one multi-week prompt, why was the poll limited to one result only? Especially when the runner up seemed to be so close in popularity. I'm really not trying to nitpick, just trying to pinpoint what I've misunderstood here.
Mod
I think it’s become especially clear this year that we have a lot of members voting whose opinions aren’t reflected in the discussion. Back when we discussed it, I think we were all in the mindset that the wild discussion was a lot more central and decisive but that hasn’t seemed to be the case as we moved forward.
I do remember that discussion and the summary. But that’s what I mean when I say that discussion can’t mean final decision when we have those missing pieces. I think discussions are extremely helpful for deciding prompt ideas, the voting process, or other approaches to the polls. It’s also interesting and helpful to see opinions on prompts. I just don’t think that final list decisions should be determined through the discussion process. That should be left to the polls.
I just think whether we include the BBB prompt or have further multi-prompts on the list should be left to an actual poll, not just decided through discussion.
Rachel, it seems like your concern was with an outcome where people said no to multi-prompts. If that had happened then I do think that it should have stopped there. But the results showed that a clear majority did.
Laura wrote: "°~Amy~° wrote: "Laura wrote: "I’m the first one to say that I have a horrid memory. So it’s very possible that I’m forgetting a conversation. But I don’t recall there being a hard decision made tha..."I honestly don't have the time to discuss as much as others do re: preferences and opinions on prompt suggestions. I usually show up and vote when I can, and I almost always miss the nomination/suggestion period. It surprised me when I looked at how much discussion takes place before people even made suggestions. Are we required to discuss beforehand what we'd like to suggest and vote on? From the outside, it seems that there's almost a pre-approval of suggestions but then surprise that a less chatty segment of this larger group doesn't vote the way the pre-discussion group suggests.
After the recent kerfuffle (and sorry for bringing it up) I looked at the group membership: 6, 666 members. I have no idea what small percentage of that number are active participants here, but it seems to me that a small core group of people are the ones actively discussing. I just come here to read and vote when I can.
I think some of us who voted yes would have voted differently if the yes meant that there would be more multi prompts in later polls. I think it is just very confusing right now.
MJ - There’s no requirement for discussion. Based on the number of 2019 plans, it looks like there are ~350 active members. On the other hand, there are probably 15-20 members who are super commenters!
Laura, I think it would be nice to have a mini poll & see how the majority of the group feels. I feel like group decisions end up being different often enough from the discussions that it would be good to see what the true majority of people prefer at this stage of the voting process. If I recall from last year, there were reevaluations throughout the process as well.
Laura wrote: "°~Amy~° wrote: "Laura wrote: "I’m the first one to say that I have a horrid memory. So it’s very possible that I’m forgetting a conversation. But I don’t recall there being a hard decision made tha..."Oh, I agree that it should be down to polls rather than discussion. I think my confusion stems from the fact that the discussion repeatedly seemed to agree that it was a one-time only poll, and there wasn't really a clear indication anywhere that this might not be the final case. That's fine if that's what the group wants, but maybe it could have been clarified differently. There often seem to be things decided through discussions, so I can understand people's confusion.
I agree with Jillian. It's possible some of us would have voted differently if we knew that voting no to a multi-week in this specific poll didn't necessarily mean none at all, as some of us were led to believe through the discussion. It's impossible to expect everyone to keep up with the discussion and/or actively participate, so I think a poll at this point would be a great way to get a sense of everyone's opinion.
Anastasia wrote: "Kristina that shows up as a mobile site not the desktop one. It is upsetting that I am being penalized for not having access to a desktop computer. Surely I am not the only one. Just the one who is..."On the Android Mobile App, you can find your profile URL by going to Settings & Support --> Profile --> Username
[The URL may be of the form www.goodreads.com/aparajir. That auto-redirects to the long form you get on browsers https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/3... - so both forms should be acceptable to the mods]
I do not have access to an iOS or Windows Device, but if your app does not have this option, you can definitely get the Profile URL from the mobile site.
The top of the page has a GoodReads banner - at the right hand corner there is a small icon of your profile picture. If you click on that it will open a menu with a "View Profile" option. That will open your profile page and you can copy the URL from the browser.
[Which, by the way, is exactly how I browse to my profile on the Desktop site.]
@Mods - Can we add instructions for the Android app in the next poll please?
Mod
On my part, I thought that we would only be having one multi-week poll (with all multi-week prompts restricted to that one poll), but that we could have multiple prompts make it. I think that was in the discussion as well, and, because the rules in the voting thread don't restrict it to only one prompt making it in, I interpreted that more than one could be voted in. I probably would have voted differently if I knew they were only selecting one.
I would say that if we don't allow for resubmissions of multi-week prompts (which I'm fine with... they seem to have a hard time making it in against single week prompts), we could at least be able to vote on if we should include the second multi-week prompt (in this case, BB&B) or leave it at just one.
That allows for the people who aren't excited to have multi-weeks in the first place say no, just limit it to the one we have, or allow for one that we know a lot of people liked to make it in as well.
For consistency's sake, though, if we do allow multi-week prompts to be suggested in later polls, I don't think we should vote to include BB&B, since it can just be re-suggested at a later date.
My personal preference is just allowing BB&B to be voted on in poll 9 and be done with multi-weeks. Of course, my top two votes were binary and BB&B, so I may be biased in this lol
Mod
Mod
Mod
- No more multi-prompts
- Include BBB in the final list but no more multi-prompts after that
- Include BBB in the final list AND allow multi-prompts in future polls
- Allow multi-prompts in future polls, including BBB
Laura wrote: "°~Amy~° wrote: "Laura wrote: "I’m the first one to say that I have a horrid memory. So it’s very possible that I’m forgetting a conversation. But I don’t recall there being a hard decision made tha..."Laura or any other mod: how many people typically vote in our polls? I’m just curious how that number compares to the amount of people who seem to comment and the amount who participate via things like the spreadsheet.
My kneejerk reaction is that if mods aren't going to make exceptions for other polls, it's unfair to do it for this one. However, since there does seem to be genuine misunderstandings about what was going to happen, I do see this actually a special case. After giving it some more thought, I think my real frustration is the second top result wasn't given in the results but was revealed prior to this potential vote to include it. I think the poll is very different if it's "should we let in the second top choice as a normal poll would have and you don't know what that prompt is until after" versus "this is the second top choice do you specifically want this one included?" It seems like a lot of the discussion about including more than one result centers around people lobbying for BBB rather than just wanting a the slate of winners picked by the normal process.
BBB was my favorite prompt from the poll, but I would downvote including it after the fact on principle.
Steve wrote: "Laura wrote: "°~Amy~° wrote: "Laura wrote: "I’m the first one to say that I have a horrid memory. So it’s very possible that I’m forgetting a conversation. But I don’t recall there being a hard dec..."I will be very interested in the answer to this, as I have been banging on about it for weeks now.
Rebecca wrote: "My kneejerk reaction is that if mods aren't going to make exceptions for other polls, it's unfair to do it for this one. However, since there does seem to be genuine misunderstandings about what wa..."I agree with you 100%. We could end up second voting on lots of suggestions that didn't get in, just because the people here lobby for them. As I said in message 57.
Mod
With other polls, you can suggest close call prompts in later polls and hopefully have them make the list again. That's not an option here, and this was a close call that may have made it if multiple prompts were allowed to win (like with regular polls).
I think another clear difference is that there has yet to be a consensus on how to handle multi-week suggestions. The first year I joined this group was right at the end of the voting process and I suggested a two book prompt, not aware that there’d been a dedicated poll for it before. In the end, the prompt was allowed to go to be voted on. Last year, we had an early dedicated poll and then the prompts were still allowed to go to voting but were usually voted down, except that one. This year, the dedicated poll has been later in the process (which I think is a good idea and worked well), but we haven’t decided if such prompts are allowed in general polls. As I suggested earlier, I think it would be interesting to have a year where the multi-week prompts just get treated like any other prompt suggestion and see what happens then.
At some point it seems like we ought to hit on something that works well for most, but it seems clear that it hadn’t been hit on yet.
Mod
Sorry, the reply feature isn’t very specific.
What do you want an answer on, Jill?
Steve wrote "Laura or any other mod: how many people typically vote in our polls? I’m just curious how that number compares to the amount of people who seem to comment and the amount who participate via things like the spreadsheet." I said I would be interested as well
I think it would be great to have a poll question like the one Laura suggested above to clarify people's current preferences, given the confusion.Going forward though, I just wonder how we can avoid this kind of confusion for next time. Chinook is right that there always seems to be some confusion around how to handle multi-week prompts in general, and I think part of the that (at least for me) is around how decisions are made. It sometimes seems like decisions are made, even if they are not always "final" through discussion on the boards, but not everyone participates. Polls are a great way to assess where things stand, but we also don't want to overwhelm everyone and vote on every little thing.
Maybe it would help to have a poll early on like this year to assess people's general interest in having a multi-week prompt at all, and then another one after the designated multi-week poll (if we still approach it that way), to re-assess?
Around the Year in 52 Books
Books mentioned in this topic
A Gentleman in Moscow (other topics)My Year of Rest and Relaxation (other topics)
The Bastard of Istanbul (other topics)
When Rains Fall (other topics)
Captain America: The First Avenger #1: First Vengeance (other topics)
More...
