[2020] 7th Mini Poll Results

[Chinook]

There’s some talk lately about how popular transgender memoir is right now - that the reading public is interested particularly in coming out stories. I find those get a bit lumped in with coming of age stories, which isn’t always accurate, since plenty of people come out and/or realize aspects of sexuality and gender at much later ages.

[Peter]

Marin wrote: "Fourevver wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Laura wrote: "The mods won’t be interfering in the winner’s choice for the summer reading challenge. It hasn’t be discussed much but I would propose that we exclud..."

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but why is it inadequate?

This isn't a class, a themed group, or even a book club. It's a casual group that everyone in it brings their own personal reading preferences to. I think it's great that we as a group are looking to include a variety of prompts, but really, who are we to start judging people for their preferences in leisure reading? I don't really think anyone should expect any other member to read about something if they don't want to and getting judgmental and condescending that not having enough of a certain type of topic isn't really called for.

This needs to be a friendly and safe space for everyone and no one should have to justify their reading preferences. If someone doesn't want to read about "x" topic, there is no reason they should be made to feel guilty for it.

[Peter]

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not advocating for or suggesting we not have diverse topics or only have one or any other negative interpretation. I enjoy some of the topics that push me out of my comfort zone and think they add value to our list. But as I said, this reading group is a leisure activity so how can any one of us expect any other one of us to spend their leisure time other than in a manner they wish?

[Peter]

Sorry for the multiple posts....on my phone.

Just one further thought. As Chinook has demonstrated, it's possible to find a diverse book (specific to her, Trans characters or authors, but I'm sure that is the case for most if not all groups) regardless of the topics. I would completely agree that only a few dedicated diverse topics was inadequate if all the other topics required you to read, for example, books about and written by wealthy white men. But they aren't. We are free to make our book choices as diverse as we want. There is nothing requiring our options to not be diverse. So I don't really understand the idea that there aren't enough specific prompts when there is nothing preventing us from reading diversely.

[Marin]

Peter wrote: "Marin wrote: "Fourevver wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Laura wrote: "The mods won’t be interfering in the winner’s choice for the summer reading challenge. It hasn’t be discussed much but I would propose ..."

"Inadequate" is probably better expressed as "not representative" -- I don't particularly seek out LGBT authors or characters and end up reading quite a few anyway. One prompt on a list of 52 just does not make for diverse reading.

I think not wanting to read about certain topics is fine, but I really don't think of authors or characters as topics -- LGBT characters show up in all kinds of books.

[Peter]

Agreed. I'm in the same boat as you in that I don't always seek out LGBT authors or characters. But I'm not talking specifically about LGBT prompts. I just mean in general diverse prompts. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying because I genuinely do enjoy having them on the list and I've been introduced to some great authors through some of the diverse topics over the years. I just don't think we should be making people feel guilty for not voting for a prompt because it doesn't fall within their reading preferences, regardless of what that prompt may be.

[Marin]

Peter wrote: "sorry for the multiple posts....on my phone.

Just one further thought. As Chinook has demonstrated, it's possible to find a diverse book (specific to her Trans characters or authors but I'm sure t..."

Sorry, missed this. I think we're on the same page here. I do not think single prompts are a good way to have us read diversely. I think they are more likely to lead us to think we're reading diversely when we're really not. (I downvoted the neurodiverse prompt for this reason. My own learning disability is estimated to have a 7-8% prevalence in my country, and that's just one condition out of many that would fit the prompt).

But at the same time, I can also see how finding out that a prompt you identify with received a significant number of downvotes can be hurtful, and I don't want to be contributing to that feeling.

[Peter]

I agree and I'm not saying that seeing a prompt that's important to someone or that they identify with won't be disappointing. I think it's more nuanced than it appears though and I think there are likely as many factors as voters as to why someone does or does not vote for a topic. Maybe I'm being naive but I can't assume that everyone who down votes a sensitive topic does it to be hurtful towards members who may identify with that topic.

I also see what you mean about having a specific prompt giving people the idea they are reading diversely. I didn't understand that in your first post but get where you're coming from now and that's s good point.

[Rebecca]

Peter wrote: "Marin wrote: "Fourevver wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Laura wrote: "The mods won’t be interfering in the winner’s choice for the summer reading challenge. It hasn’t be discussed much but I would propose ..."

You do realize what it sounds like when you, a non-queer person, complain the group is not friendly or safe enough, in response to queer people explaining with examples how the group is being hurtful? And that's on top of referring to us as "something" and "topics." Like not only are we not worth naming, we don't even get to be people anymore?

So sorry, but no, I'm not going to stop pointing out queerphobia and disrespect in the group just because it makes you uncomfortable.

[AnnaG]

I joined a different group to do an "own voices" challenge and had a bad experience. On the first category I did, which was to "read a book from a black author with a black protagonist", by chance I happened to read Vegas, Baby which has a black heroine and then found myself looking up the author to see if she was black, so that I could tick the item off my challenge list. That didn't sit right with me; it really didn't feel OK to be searching around for information about the author that wasn't published in the book.

Many of the other categories in the challenge were for "own voices" from religions or sexual preferences and I decided it's entirely unacceptable to me to start googling an author's sexuality or religion to fill in a challenge.

Doing that challenge made me question the concept of "own voices" as a genuine way of understanding other cultures or perspectives. I read fiction for relaxation and entertainment, mainly romance with a side of fantasy, preferably with a pacy, but silly, plot and definitely with a HEA. I don't want it to be challenging or realistic and I don't really expect depth or development of characters. I sincerely hope that the mostly white, mostly straight characters in the books I read are not considered to be typical examples of white people or straight people by their mostly white, mostly straight authors.

On the "own voices" challenge, I've decided to only really include autobiography, where obviously the book itself tells you clearly how the author identifies. I've also decided not to do challenges in the future that have some condition on author that needs details from an author biog to complete (e.g. I won't do "author belong to a certain race/religion/other grouping", but will do "read an autobiography by a Sikh" or "author's name alliterates/contains A,T and Y").

[BookLover]

I have followed this group for a long while but this conversation has moved me to join To say something.

Rebecca. In reply to message 96. Have you ever been physically attacked in the street for holding hands with your wife? Have you ever had a doctor snigger when asking how you as a lesbian woman got pregnant? Have you ever been dismissed from a job because of your sexuality? Have your children ever been excluded from parties because their parents hate that a child has two female parents? Has anyone ever made a malicious allegation of abuse to your children’s school because they think it’s wrong for lesbians to have children at all? Have you ever had male colleagues ask you to describe what you and your wife do in bed and threaten you when you refuse? Have you ever been to the wedding of another lesbian couple and had a stranger throw a can of beer at the guests and yell dyke at them? Have you ever reported a homophobic crime to the police and heard the officers laughing about you when you left?

Because I have. And none of the homophobia I and my family face has made Me speak to people like you are in this conversation. I am sorry you have had the upsetting experiences you talked about. It does not entitle you to behave like this. Yelling at people for saying something wrong because they don’t understand something is no way to get people to support lgbtq people.

Prople here have good intentions and acting like people are violent homophobes because they worded something insensitivity is wrong and makes people think they should never try to talk about lgbtq issues in case they accidentally upset someone without meaning to.

[Rebecca]

AnnaG wrote: "I joined a different group to do an "own voices" challenge and had a bad experience. On the first category I did, which was to "read a book from a black author with a black protagonist", by chance ..."

This argument completely baffles me, and this certainly isn't the first time I've seen it. (As a white person, I don't think it's my place to dive into race, but it doesn't sit right with me to treat someone's race like it's a terrible secret....) Obviously, you should never directly contact an author asking them for personal details, but I don't understand acting like no one puts personal information in their book jacket or Twitter bio or GoodReads blurb. Especially with books with queer characters, I find the authors typically range from openly queer to enthusiastically queer and thrilled to write their own representation. I think the only negativity I've seen is a queer author who wrote a pan character didn't like receiving tons of private messages asking her to clarify if she was bi or pan. I've seen anything remotely like what you describe. I'm sure if an author chooses to publicly post or share information about themselves, they expect people to see it.

And it makes me really sad to see it implied there could never be a silly romance with a HEA for queer characters, or that our very existence has to be "challenging." That's exactly the thinking that feeds into the bury your gays trope, and others like it.

[Peter]

Rebecca, I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that this is meant to be a non-judgmental group for everyone. Expecting that every member of this group share your opinion and interest and alter their reading preferences to your satisfaction is unrealistic.

Not having a diversity topic for any particular group/identity/person/minority/noun of your choice (I really have no idea what you want me to say here because you seem to take offense no matter what word someone uses), does not mean people are not reading books by authors or about characters from those groups/identities/people/minorities. There is no rule saying people are required to read white male heterosexual authors/characters, so why does it seem your assumption is that if there isn't a specific prompt for a group/identity/person/minority that people just aren't reading books by those authors or with those characters?

I wasn't referring to you or anyone else as a thing or a topic, nor was i suggesting or implying you're not worth naming or aren't a person. I will openly admit that I have never had to go through the experiences you have had. But I know many people who have, including my brother. I'm not suggesting I fully understand the nuances or complexities and know there is a lot I can improve on and learn. I also know it's not your responsibility to teach me nor am I asking you to. I'm willing to discuss and learn and grow. I've really tried to be as respectful as possible but at this point I'm really not sure how to respond... You seem determined to see hate where there is none and to take offense no matter how someone expresses themselves.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I’m genuinely trying to word my response respectfully but I’m having trouble wording my thoughts so bear with me.

I think we need to start working together to create expectations for the group, essentially in the form of “house rules”. Many groups on Facebook have a similar system and I’m sure there are groups that do on here.

I would propose that one of those be that we try to understand the actual message of what a person is saying, rather than picking pieces of it to respond to and argue with. Essentially, “Strive to understand each other and others’ points of view”.

I see this playing out in the current discussion. I think it’s apparent that Peter is trying to word things thoughtfully. The actual argument he is making (correct me if I’m wrong, Peter), is that we should all strive to read diversely regardless of having a prompt telling us to do so. So if you keep that in mind, we don’t need a set, x number of diverse prompts in order for our list to allow for diversity.

I think it’s more constructive to respond to that, agree or disagree, rather than picking apart his words. I think if he had been talking about only LGBTIA+ Population and had said the same words, maybe it would have been getting into questionable territory. But there’s only so many ways we can summarize a large number of people from multiple groups without saying “something”. I think when we do start to get down to individual words then it gets into the territory that Booklover is referring to.

I know that as a white female, working in a predominantly black high school, there are many times that I really struggle with how to speak in order to not offend. I like to think that’s it’s good that I try to be aware. I don’t remember ever being criticized for the way I speak in that setting. But I think there’s definitely a line to where the person is trying to speak and engage in meaningful conversation and they are criticized so severely that it makes them not want to have the discussions anymore. I think that’s just detrimental to progress. Even an ally puts their foot in their mouth sometimes. Were all human. I believe it’s better to say, “Hey, just so you know you said “x” and it came off a bit bad”. I would LOVE to hear that in the discussions that I’m having with people and I would definitely correct myself and it would likely come to mind a lot in the future when I’m speaking.

If we’re going to have ‘house rules’ or whatever we want to call them, every person in the group must follow them. It has to be safe space for those who part of both the majority and the minority group. I’m still processing what this would look like in the group but I wanted to speak up now since I suspect the conversation may be escalating again.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

AnnaG voices some stuff that I actually thought about when I was looking for examples for the rainbow prompt.

It made me feel a bit uneasy to look at the race of the author just to see if it matched the character. Almost like I wouldn’t have read the book unless I had been forced to. That wouldn’t have been true for all the books because there were some already on my TBR. And it was obviously not a natural search since I was looking for books for examples rather than my own reading. But it did cross my mind.

Almost as if the prompt was forcing me to find a “token” writer rather than me reading it because I came across it and thought it sounded interesting. To use Rebecca’s language, worth my time.

I think in the end, it comes down to the publishing industry like we’ve discussed. It would be nice if those books were just marketed as much as others, to where we came across them frequently and read them just as part of our natural book search and didn’t have to look up the author just to fulfill a prompt.

But at the same time, I think there’s a ton of value in reading “own voices” books so I’ll continue to check the author. I definitely wouldn’t avoid the process or stop reading fiction just for that reason. I don’t think an LGBT man has any less right to write a book about a gay teen but I think there would likely be more, valuable depth from an “own voices” one.

Hopefully that made some sense! 😕

[Peter]

Laura, basically yes. That and the fact that regardless of the prompts, there's nothing restricting our book choices. Basically, while the presence of a diversity prompt encourages diverse reading, the lack of one does not equate to discouraging them.

And my use of "something" was meant as an all encompassing term for any book/content/genre/subject/etc one of our members doesn't want to read. So literally "something". If a member doesn't want to read something, regardless of what it is, they shouldn't be made to feel bad about their reading preferences.

[Rebecca]

Laura wrote: "I’m genuinely trying to word my response respectfully but I’m having trouble wording my thoughts so bear with me.

I think we need to start working together to create expectations for the group, e..."

You can't keep moving the goalposts on what is an acceptable way to word things. I *specifically* used the structure you requested, and it still doesn't make a difference to you. This doesn't really do anything to disabuse me of the notion mods would just rather no one complain than actually fix anything.

Especially since this has happened multiple times and I'm sure it's about to happen again, as I see the complaining of "too many diverse" prompts has already started for the coming poll and it's not even open yet. I guess the unwritten rule is only one at a time is allowed?

And even if I am last place in the Oppression Olympics, as BookLover is so gracious as to point out, I stand by what I've said.

[Edie]

Members bring all sorts of reading preferences to this discussion. I join challenges to broaden my reading. I am a lover of list prompts, but it is clear from the discussion that others hate them and there are comments about too many list prompts. One of values, for me, of this group is the diversity of the participants and the sharing of ideas about books that (sometimes creatively) fit prompts. I learn a lot from the group. My votes often are for non-winning prompts and yet the ATY challenge final list ends up pushing me. And as has often been mentioned you can add your own twists to it.

[BookLover]

You justified your attitude and language by talking about discrimination and upset you had from colleagues and doctors. I told you about my own experience to show that people who have also been badly treated because of their sexuality can choose not to be aggressive and rude while talking about it.

Why are you so eager to criticise and condemn people. There is only 1 winner in the new poll. The person saying the diversity prompts are similar said that because it made deciding votes harder. Who said there should be only 1 diversity Prompt on the whole list?.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

‘You do realize what it sounds like when you, a non-queer person, complain the group is not friendly or safe enough, in response to queer people explaining with examples how the group is being hurtful?’

I understand what you’re saying here. It should be a safe space for everyone and I don’t want it to seem as though mods are always defending the people you’re speaking out against.

I think it’s when you start to get into the specific, single words at the expense of ignoring the actual point that it becomes troublesome. Obviously there are some, single words that are, in and of themselves hurtful. But not every word.

I am specifically proposing implementation of standards of conduct (I.e. house rules) so I’m not sure what is missing there? That seems to be an attempt to be responsive and improve the atmosphere rather than sending a message that I’m avoiding complaining.

I would love your, and everyone else’s input into how those rules should look.

I want to talk to the mods so I’m not taking over the situation on my own, but it seems like it would be best to have a separate topic focused on just that topic.

As far as the current suggestions, the issue was a concern with there being similarly worded prompts, not more than one diverse one. I had that concern myself just because I don’t want the votes to be split. That member specifically provided examples of the similar prompts (in her opinion) and that did not include every diverse prompt suggested.

[AnnaG]

Rebecca wrote: "AnnaG wrote: "I joined a different group to do an "own voices" challenge and had a bad experience. On the first category I did, which was to "read a book from a black author with a black protagonis..."

The author bio information sometimes includes information like that, but usually not on the types of books I read. There are a huge number of writers who use pseudonyms - especially men - as publishers perceive that readers gravitate to female names in women's fiction.

As for you quoting me as saying "very existence [of queer characters] has to be "challenging."", I didn't say that. You are clearly feeling much put upon by the group here, but it's not helping your point to attack everyone's statements who has a different perspective. I also think you can't have read many romances to think that queer characters are under-represented.

Back in the 50 shades era, I struggled to find a new book that *wasn't* about BDSM as all publishers jumped on the band wagon. A couple of years ago menage a trois was a thing and the currently 3 of the top 100 books on Kindle for sci-fi romance are "reverse harem" books Condemned: A Dark Sci-Fi Reverse Harem Romance, Night of the Zandians andTheirs to Protect. I like reading trashy romance, but I can totally see that a lot of people in this reading group wouldn't be interested in "Avalon's fate with 4 veteran warriors".

[AnnaG]

Laura wrote: "AnnaG voices some stuff that I actually thought about when I was looking for examples for the rainbow prompt.

It made me feel a bit uneasy to look at the race of the author just to see if it matc..."

Your point about the publishing industry is spot on. It's really sad that a book can't be marketed as "good", rather than focusing on it being "diverse". There is some hope though - if you look at the marketing for The Bindingwhich I think is the best-selling debut HB in the UK this year, you wouldn't know that it was LGBT at all.

[Rebecca]

Laura wrote: "‘You do realize what it sounds like when you, a non-queer person, complain the group is not friendly or safe enough, in response to queer people explaining with examples how the group is being hurt..."

My concern is these rules will be written with the goal of deincentivizing pointing out harmful things to codify a way to punish members who do.

[Rebecca]

AnnaG wrote: "Laura wrote: "AnnaG voices some stuff that I actually thought about when I was looking for examples for the rainbow prompt.

It made me feel a bit uneasy to look at the race of the author just to ..."

This is kind of thing that's absolutely crushing to read, to say it's "hopeful" that books with queer characters don't advertise that fact at all. And then there's the problem with setting up good versus diverse as some sort of binary. I seriously doubt any publisher is like "hmm...this book is subpar but it has queer characters and if we know anything, it's that queer characters are not at all controversial and sell big numbers, so we'll just pick it up anyway." Not to say I haven't read poorly written (in my opinion) books with queer characters, but I don't think it was the queer characters' presence that made the publisher decide to overlook other issues.

It's already so hard to search for representation that I can't imagine how much harder it would be if I had to rely on mere chance, either that I lucked upon the right book or that enough people in my sphere mentioned it. Plus it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy where publishers will keep any queerness a secret because that's what sells. It's not like I can ask for a note put on my purchase or library checkout to clarify I would've gotten to the book a lot sooner if only I had known.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

Rebecca wrote: "AnnaG wrote: "Laura wrote: "AnnaG voices some stuff that I actually thought about when I was looking for examples for the rainbow prompt.

It made me feel a bit uneasy to look at the race of the a..."

That’s definitely not what I was saying but I see why it was interpreted that way since I was having trouble wording it.

I know we’re definitely not at the point to where we can happen upon those books right now. I also wasn’t saying that they’re not good. I was saying that it would be nice if publishers marketed them so much that we could just come across them without having to search for them. Not that I don’t want to put in the effort but I wish they were marketed so much that there was more equality and I didn’t have to.

Like Angie Thomas, for instance. Her books have received great marketing so people come across them all the time. Yeah, her books are listed on all the “own voices” lists, but that’s also not the only place you will find them.

There are plenty of other “own voices” books that receive similarly great publicity but also too many “hidden gems” that people may only read because they’re “forced” to through a reading prompt, when they have to look at the author’s bio to know that it fits the prompt.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

Rebecca wrote: "Laura wrote: "‘You do realize what it sounds like when you, a non-queer person, complain the group is not friendly or safe enough, in response to queer people explaining with examples how the group..."

I’m sure there would be some misunderstandings and lapses because the mods are human. But we would strive to prevent disrespect, whether from the person originally speaking or from the one responding.

[Nadine in NY]

#ownvoices is a fantastic initiative. There is nothing secretive or shameful about an author’s ethnicity. We aren’t prying into their private lives, we are accessing information they made publicly available.

For every reading challenge, I read books “just because” they fit the particular category. I read Half of a Yellow Sun because the author was under 30 when she wrote it. I read Big Little Lies because it had antonyms in the title. In each case, I loved the book and I went on to read many other books by the authors. It’s the same for #ownvoices reading.

There’s nothing wrong with seeking out books “just because” the author is a particular ethnicity/gender/sexuality/ability/etc. It’s not tokenism. Its not underhanded or shameful. It’s just one more way of choosing a book. There is no dichotomy between “good” and “diverse.”

Yes, in a perfect word, publishers would just publish and promote All the Books. But we know they don’t. We know that authors belonging to marginalized groups are often marginalized. #ownvoices reading seeks to balance that a little bit.

[Sarah]

Nadine wrote: "There’s nothing wrong with seeking out books “just because” the author is a particular ethnicity/gender/sexuality/ability/etc. It’s not tokenism. It's not underhanded or shameful. It’s just one more way of choosing a book. There is no dichotomy between “good” and “diverse.”

Well said, Nadine! I completely agree.

[Perri]

Laura wrote I’m sure there would be some misunderstandings and lapses because the mods are human. But we would strive to prevent disrespect, whether from the person originally speaking or from the one responding.:

To me, this is exactly the way the forum works now, the mods closely monitoring the feeds, jumping in when there are problems and respectful, if sometimes heated exchanges.

[Chinook]

I also think that your own voices awareness (that’s not quite the right word, but it’ll do) is going to be related to other things you may or may not do. For example, I never used to go on Twitter - I got an account in the early days but it didn’t really appeal to me. Then my daughter’s kindergarten class was using it to share the activities they do daily and at the same time I attended this really amazing book festival in Brampton - the Festival of Literary Diversity - and I went to follow them and the authors attending on a twitter.

And now I love Twitter. I basically follow a bunch of authors, often those that interact with each other in really positive ways. And clearly the post all sorts of things, including personal things. Faced with any prompt for own voices, I’ve already got a few authors I follow on Twitter as possible options.

Which is just to say that there’s plenty of non-intrusive ways to know these sorts of things about authors. Certainly Twitter isn’t going to be to every readers tastes and literary festivals aren’t accessible for everyone, but there are completely natural ways for readers to know these details.

[Sophie]

I’m on vacation and finally catching up on this discussion. I must say that I’m really upset by it.

Laura, I absolutely think that we need to include rules of engagement for this group. I joined this group as a fun way to motivate myself to read more books. I don’t participate in much of the group activities but I do enjoy the process of suggesting and voting in new prompts. This discussion is far from fun.

I almost left this group 2 years ago because of insults and attacks made by a member who was upset that I suggested a Harry Potter prompt. Among other comments, she called adults who read children’s books as emotionally stunted and creepy. Although the comments were not specifically aimed at me, I felt attacked because I had suggested the prompt and because I’m an adult who enjoys Harry Potter.

The point of the insults was to bully people into not choosing a Harry Potter prompt. And it worked.

It was the first time that I experienced someone insulting people for their prompt choices. It’s now happening again, and it is worth noting that it is the SAME person doing the attacking. I agree with BookLover, Rebecca’s comments are inappropriate.

I really dread the next set of prompts being suggested. What will happen if it’s not suggested again? Are people going to vote for it because they feel bullied into it? Or they going to vote against it because they are upset by this discussion?

So in terms of house rules, what about:

Anyone who attacks or insults others because of prompts suggested, voted for or not voted for, or attempts to bully others into vote for or against certain prompts will be asked to leave the group.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I included the following in the most recent newsletter:

“This is a friendly reminder of the following Goodreads community guidelines. We are highlighting the following:

- Not everyone shares the same point of view, and that diversity of opinion is what makes Goodreads a great place to share your ideas. Respectful, lively debates are encouraged, but consider the impact of your contributions on individuals and the community as a whole before jumping in.
- Hate speech, bigotry, threats, and ad hominem attacks are not tolerated. Criticizing the opinions of others is permitted, but attacking individuals for their opinions is not.

We have an amazing sense of community and a friendly atmosphere in the ATY group. I’m sure we all want to continue this! Any repeated violations of these community guidelines will unfortunately result in removal from the group.”

———————————

We will be strictly enforcing that rule from here on out. While I think some could argue that previous statements warranted removal, I believe we can now clearly state that all members have been “warned” of the consequences.

That will be particularly enforced within results threads in the future.

[Sophie]

Laura wrote: "I included the following in the most recent newsletter:

“This is a friendly reminder of the following Goodreads community guidelines. We are highlighting the following:

- Not everyone shares the ..."

Thank you, Laura

[Pam]

I have to agree w Sophie’s comments about feeling bullied to vote on prompts. I don’t like the judgmental tone we’ve been seeing. It’s one thing to feel hurt or disappointed but another to label members as transphobic, etc. and say you feel gross or icky reading someone’s comments. That type of language is creating an environment that feels unsafe, in the sense that you don’t want to risk commenting for fear of being attacked for your opinions. I hope we don’t go through this kind of discussion again.

[Pam]

Thank you Laura!

[Sara]

I feel just as Sophie and Pam have expressed. I do hope we can get back to civility and a non-judgmental discussion. I do this for joy--and since this discussion began, it has been more like pain.

[Angie]

I remember the Harry Potter incident, Sophie. I almost left the group then, too.

Thank you, Laura! And thanks to all the mods for doing a difficult, and I'm sure sometimes frustrating job. Hopefully things will be calmer from here on out.

[Chrissy]

Bullying language can also take the form of erasure. And feeling bullied for liking YA books is not the same as feeling excluded or erased because of your gender or sexuality. Both suck, but they aren’t the same.

When people feel attacked because their opinions are subject to critique, how do we understand the community guidelines: “Criticizing the opinions of others is permitted, but attacking individuals for their opinions is not.”?

ETA: Making it against the rules to speak up when someone is creating an unsafe space for marginalized people doesn’t make this a more friendly group. It just makes it easier for dominant groups to feel comfortable, like they/we are accustomed to feeling.

[°~Amy~°]

This thread has put me into a very dark place emotionally this week and I couldn't explain why, nor did I dare to if I could have found the appropriate words. The name calling, the twisting of words, the venom....it was heartbreaking. Thank you Sophie for putting the words to the situation so eloquently.

Thank you so much to the mods too for making every attempt to smooth things over and to prevent this type of mess again in the future.

[°~Amy~°]

Chrissy wrote: "Bullying language can also take the form of erasure. And feeling bullied for liking YA books is not the same as feeling excluded or erased because of your gender or sexuality. Both suck, but they a..."

No one here is saying that it's not ok to feel hurt or that it's not ok to be lgbtqia+ or any other identity/race/religion/ethnicity/etc. None of those things was the issue. The issue was one person and their name calling and the twisting people's words to make them appear to be saying negative things, when they definitely were not. There were several people here expressing opinions and giving input and encouragement regarding reading diversely and I for one, hope to hear a LOT more from them on those subjects. I don't however want to feel afraid to post ANY comment at all because it will be twisted and I will be called a homophobe, transphobe, accused of not being an ally, etc. That's taking it too far. Discussing issues and getting emotional are one thing, attacking people is completely different. This was not a lgbtqia+ issue, it was a ONE PERSON issue.

[Nadine in NY]

Nobody wants to be attacked. I am afraid to express my opinion sometimes too, because I feel really bad if I’m shot down. But at the same time, I know that some people use direct and forceful language without realizing how it comes across to others. I try to account for that when I feel myself reacting badly to a comment. Just as ad hominem attacks are wrong and justly prohibited, we should also be careful to not police other’s tone. It’s always so hard to find the right balance.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I’m locking this thread temporarily to prevent escalation. I’m at a nail salon and physically unable to respond appropriately.

Rest assured, it will be unlocked and moderated shortly.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

Moderator message:

The goal of reminding the group of the community guidelines is to make an effort to make everyone in the group more comfortable. It became clear that some individuals were being disrespectful towards what they perceived to be homophobia. At the same time, some were feeling disrespected for their personal identities, which is not okay. Treating it as a singular issue where one side is right and the other wrong, is not going to lead to progress.

We are not saying that people can’t comment and speak out against possible homophobia. But that people can’t throw accusations of homophobia without any evidence, and can’t be unjustifiably rude to other group members. Just because you’re responding to what you believe to be prejudice doesn’t give you free rein to behave in a way that’s otherwise unacceptable in our group.

At the same time, I want all group members to feel comfortable speaking out against perceived prejudice. Some did this perfectly respectfully and in a manner that encouraged discussion. Others, not so much.

While I genuinely believe that no comments were made in a conscious or blatant attempt to demean others or act prejudicially, we have to recognize that there are often covert influences at play. Culturally, society has a long way to go and influences our unconscious thoughts in many ways. That’s why it becomes very important to genuinely listen to others and examine our statements to be sure we aren’t speaking in a negative way, even if unintended.

Moving forward, I encourage members to point out what they believe to be disrespect or prejudicial. If you are uncomfortable doing so publicly, feel free to PM a mod (many have already done so). But know that we want everyone in the group to feel comfortable commenting at whatever the frequency they wish, assuming they do so respectfully.

[Katie]

I also think it's of utmost importance to strive for openness and respect in a forum like this where people from different backgrounds and with different experiences interact.

I also think it's important for people to be aware of the privilege they may have as part of a dominant social group and be open to hear and accept the experiences of others, especially people representing marginalized groups, and be willing to recognize opportunities and learn ways to improve.

I believe the members of our group have good intentions and strive to have positive interactions. We can all learn from each other.

I like this quote: "Becoming aware of privilege should not be viewed as a burden or source of guilt, but rather, an opportunity to learn and be responsible so that we may work toward a more just and inclusive world."

This is one of the reasons I enjoy reading diversely, but regardless of reading preferences, we can all work toward that more just and inclusive environment, and that may sometimes include being open to accepting feedback on how we can be better and more inclusive and use less charged or offensive language, even when no offense may be meant.

This is a great group where we're brought together by our love for reading challenges, and we hope that everyone will enjoy their time spent here and be satisfied with the interactions among group members.

[Rebecca]

I am here to apologize.

It was much easier to cope with my feelings of worthlessness by taking it out on the group than addressing it on my own, and for that I am very sorry. After rereading with a cooler head, it’s obvious to me now that nothing was intended personally towards me; even if it had been, that wouldn’t excuse my behavior. To everyone I hurt or upset, I am sorry.

(Not mod) Sophie, I was too much of a coward to apologize two years ago when I should have. I’m sure it’s far too late to mean anything, but I am especially sorry for the hurt I caused you.

It has been painful to see every inclusive prompt but one voted down and has sucked a lot of the joy out of the process for me, but I was wrong to deal with that by lashing and purposely trying to kill that joy for others. If I can’t deal with my own shit, that needs to be on me.

I took it for granted that every member also occupies the same circles online when it comes to knowing about diverse books, especially queer books, and was just choosing to ignore that. I realize now that’s just not the case, and I would love to begin to make amends by making recommendations and spreading awareness of what is available.

[Sophie]

***massive virtual hug to you Rebecca***

[Kathy]

I would love to have your recommendations, Rebecca.

[Rebecca]

I split these between my read and TBR lists.
*=own voices (that I know of)

Read
*The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet (scifi, lesbian/polyam)

*Fingersmith (historical fiction, lesbian)

*Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic (graphic novel, lesbian)

Ruby (historical fiction, bi)

The Price of Salt (historical fiction, bi/lesbian)

*A Brief History of Seven Killings (historical fiction, gay)

Blue Is the Warmest Color (graphic novel, lesbian)

*Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit (literary fiction, lesbian)

*Here Comes the Sun (literary fiction, lesbian)

The Song of Achilles (retelling, gay)

Every Heart a Doorway (fantasy, queer)

The Unseen World (contemporary, gay)

*Calling Dr. Laura (graphic novel, lesbian)

*Marbles: Mania, Depression, Michelangelo, and Me (graphic novel, bi)

*The One Hundred Nights of Hero (graphic novel, lesbian)

*Born Both: An Intersex Life (nonfiction)

*Not My Father's Son (nonfiction, bi)

*Peter Darling (retelling, trans)

Meddling Kids (retelling, lesbian)

*Redefining Realness: My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love & So Much More (nonfiction)

*Buffering: Unshared Tales of a Life Fully Loaded (nonfiction, lesbian)

*My Brother's Husband, Volume 1 (graphic novel, gay)

The Trauma Cleaner: One Woman's Extraordinary Life in the Business of Death, Decay, and Disaster (nonfiction, trans)

The Fifth Season (scifi, queer)

*My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness (graphic novel)

Luna: New Moon (scifi, queer)

*When I Grow Up I Want to Be a List of Further Possibilities (poetry, gay)

*Intersex (nonfiction)

Let's Talk About Love (YA contemporary, ace)

*Summer Bird Blue (YA contemporary, aroace)

The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo (historical fiction, bi)

Seven Ways We Lie (YA contemporary, ace/pan)

*Naturally Tan (nonfiction, gay)

*Freshwater (literary fiction, nonbinary)

*George (MG contemporary, trans)

*Not Here (poetry, gay)

*They Called Us Enemy (graphic novel, gay)

TBR
*A Place Called Winter (historical fiction, gay)

*What Belongs to You (contemporary, gay)

Charity and Sylvia: A Same-Sex Marriage in Early America (nonfiction)

Strong Women, Deep Closets: Lesbians And Homophobia In Sport (nonfiction)

*Under the Udala Trees (historical fiction, lesbian)

*The Uncle's Story (historical fiction, gay)

Gross Indecency: The Three Trials of Oscar Wilde (nonfiction)

Pedro and Me: Friendship, Loss, and What I Learned (graphic novel, gay)

*Smile As They Bow (literary fiction, gay/gnc)

As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl (nonfiction, intersex)

Days Without End (historical fiction, gay)

*The Gender Games: The Problem with Men and Women, from Someone Who Has Been Both (nonfiction)

*My Favorite Thing Is Monsters, Vol. 1 (graphic novel)

*Without You (nonfiction, gay)

*Tomorrow Will Be Different: Love, Loss, and the Fight for Trans Equality (nonfiction)

*Tipping the Velvet (historical fiction, lesbian)

*The Black Tides of Heaven (fantasy, nonbinary)

*Less (contemporary, gay)

Marriage of a Thousand Lies (contemporary, lesbian)

*The Cybernetic Tea Shop (scifi, queer)

*Pregnant Butch: Nine Long Months Spent in Drag (graphic novel)

Sawkill Girls (YA contemporary, ace)

*The Perfect Assassin (fantasy, ace)

Beyond the Black Door (YA fantasy, ace)

Beneath the Citadel (YA fantasy, ace)

Stagestruck: Theater, AIDS, and the Marketing of Gay America (nonfiction)

Immoral Code (YA contemporary, ace)

*Tarnished Are the Stars (YA scifi, ace)

*Spinning (graphic novel, lesbian)

*Uncomfortable Labels: My Life as a Gay Autistic Trans Woman (nonfiction)

*Sissy: A Coming-of-Gender Story (nonfiction)

*Amateur: A True Story About What Makes a Man (nonfiction, trans)

*The Luminous Dead (scifi, queer)

*Brave Face (graphic novel, nonbinary)

Murmur (historical fiction, gay)

Stage Dreams (western, queer)

*The Nearest Exit May Be Behind You (graphic novel, trans)

*Gender Queer: A Memoir (graphic novel)

Juno's Swans (contemporary, lesbian)

Southernmost (contemporary, gay)

The House of Impossible Beauties (historical fiction, trans)

After the Eclipse (thriller, queer)

This Is How You Lose the Time War (scifi, lesbian)

*We Have Always Been Here: A Queer Muslim Memoir (nonfiction)

*Queer Intentions: A (Personal) Journey Through LGBTQ + Culture (nonfiction)

*Prognosis: A Memoir of My Brain (nonfiction, lesbian)

[Jette]

Rebecca,
I appreciate your apology (and your reading list). It takes a very courageous and reflective person to write as you did.

[Nadine in NY]

Rebecca wrote: "I am here to apologize.

It was much easier to cope with my feelings of worthlessness by taking it out on the group than addressing it on my own, and for that I am very sorry. After rereading with..."


I am so impressed. (((Rebecca)))