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Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017)
True Angela, I am finding the same thing. Little bits and pieces that add to the story.
Yes, I'm enjoying the story, a zillion times more than I expected. I like the internal thoughts of Stephen and Bloom. Btw why is S referred to by his first name and B by his second?I really like the language used in some of the sections, especially when Joyce is providing a list. Also some of the word combinations to make 'multiple' words are very pleasurable. Was Dylan Thomas a fan of Joyce, it occasionally reminds me of his writing,
I agree, Angela, I like the way different bits of information help us build up a picture of the rest of the lives of the characters, and how there are different slants on the same thing.
Another question, is there a significance in the cloud that S saw earlier, and B sees also(I think in this chapter)?
I'm really glad about how much the novel is being enjoyed. I think it gets a bad reputation and people avoid it like the plague. It's a big commitment when reading it for the first time but if taken slowly it is enjoyable, too. I first read it four years ago and only remember that it took me a long, long time to read and that I puzzled through a lot of it. Like Angela, I read the episode, some analysis, reread the episode, sometimes more analysis, etc. By the end, I got the general idea of the story and really liked it. I knew I'd reread it one day and not only get more out of it but also enjoy it even more. And that prediction is turning out to be true.
I also like that we're slowly getting to know the characters through their memories and thoughts, rather than the author telling us everything. It's like getting to know a new person in our lives: we know nothing about them but what they tell us through words and action. From these things, we build a relationship with them and go on to deeper and truer friendships.
Gill, I think that the cloud is meant to tie Stephen & Bloom together; maybe to remind us that they are connected. They are united as one through this cloud (so to speak). There's another quick "tie" in this week's upcoming episode as well.
Looking at S & B as son and father or boy and man, would it be fair to say that boys are mostly spoken/thought of by their first names, while men are often spoken/thought of by their last names? I'm not sure if this is true, actually.
The only example of calling a boy by his surname that I can think of is a Boy's school where the instructors refer to the students by their surnames....and that's mainly from English movies and Dickens' novels.
This book makes me realize that I know next to nothing about Irish history. There's a lot of references to it and they all go past me. Here in Canada, Irish history plays no part of our school curriculum. Kind of sad, really.
Petra wrote: "There's not much to talk about in this week's episode. We follow Bloom around as he wastes a bit of time before Digman's funeral. It's all pretty ordinary. Let's talk about what we think of the no..."
As far as what I think so far, I'm enjoying it a lot. I thought it was something I "ought" to read but I am finding it fascinating. I really appreciate all the notes and explanations and I'm also ok if I don't catch every allusion. (I had the same experience with Moby Dick a couple years ago - maybe I should read everything I had put off as too complex/dull/difficult!)
I have just finished this week's episode. I am finding Bloom's parts much easier than Stephen's, so I am now feeling that it is not as difficult as I thought it would be. I am reading with a finger keeping place in the notes at the back of my book, and flipping back and forth constantly. I know very little Irish history (I have that same Canadian education as you Petra) so I would be completely lost in places without the notes. However, as I just finished a book on Queen Victoria, I caught both the Gladstone and Leopold references without using the notes. Pretty chuffed about that!Petra, your question about the non-story aspect made me think of the tv series Seinfeld, which was famous for being a tv show about nothing. They had a 10 year run! I think that proves that sometimes we don't need extremes to be entertained. Sometimes we can just be interested in our fellow human being who is going through life just as we are.
As for this episode I wonder about Bloom's fake name. I get Flower for Bloom, but I am lost on the connection between Leopold and Henry. Or maybe I am thinking too much and there isn't supposed to be a connection?My other observation is that Bloom seems distracted and doesn't seem to want anybody's company in this episode. He wishes he hadn't run into M'Coy, and he tries to give his paper to Bantam Lyons in order to get rid of him faster.
Evelyn, I like your Seinfeld comparison. Seinfeld, too, is just going through his days, doing what needs to be done, enjoying himself, getting into issues, etc. Bloom (and Stephen) are doing just that, too. Nice comparison.
I found this about Bloom's pseudoname, Henry Flowers:
"Bloom's choice of the name "Henry Flowers" has significance. His real name, Bloom, is a word that means flower. The name "Henry" comes from the Germanic word for "home ruler" or "powerful ruler," and it's widely know as the name of many English kings. The name has a subtle political significance as well--the Irish did not yet have home rule, so they lacked a "Henry" of their own. Bloom longs to be the ruler of his own home, as the Irish long for home rule, which is why the name Henry appeals to him. Yet, the imagery of the lotus flower* suggests that Bloom must stop being passive and idle is he's to reclaim his position as the head of his own home..."
(http://thewiseserpent.blogspot.ca/201...)
* another quote to explain the lotus flower comment:
"Joyce associates Bloom's mistress with the lotus, indicating that his affair is a mindless escape for Bloom, not a great passion."
I like this part of the quote for Bloom: "Bloom must stop being passive and idle is he's to reclaim his position as the head of his own home."
I am kind of sad for both Molly & Bloom that the death of their son drove a distance between them. Something like that should bring a loving couple together. So far, from what we know of Bloom, he's very passive...going with the flow....so, no fight. In order to win Molly, he's got to fight for her, show some spunk & gumption and take control of the situation by letting her know that she's important to him, I think.
I just read that blog entry. I really liked it. It gave this episode much more significance and meaning than I got out of it. There's references to the pleasures of everyday life also being drugs (lotus flowers) and that one has to be careful not to indulge too much or one's life will be dithered away.
There's so much in this book. I imagine we could read it 10 times and always get more from it.
Petra thank you for finding the blog and answering my question about Bloom/Flower!
No problem. Thanks for asking the question. It was one of those details that I didn't think to question and it has such an interesting answer. This has added to my enjoyment of the story.
Episode 6 HadesDunphy's Pub: (check out the street view)
https://plus.google.com/1149052198695...
Comments from visitors of Dunphy's:
http://www.yelp.ca/biz/dunphys-dun-la...
Glasnevin Cemetery:
Earlier in this thread, Gill posted these two links to images of Glasnevin Cemetery:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasne...
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/visit-gl...
TIME: 11.00 am.
SCENE: A funeral carriage travels from Patrick Dignam's house in Sandymount to Prospect Cemetery in Glasnevin, north Dublin.
ORGAN: Heart
ART: Religion
COLOURS: White, black
SYMBOL: Caretaker
TECHNIQUE: Incubism (incubus-an evil spirit that produces nightmares)
CORRESPONDENCES: The four rivers of Hades-the Dodder, the Grand and Royal canals and the Liffey; Sisyphus-Martin Cunningham; Cerberus-Father Coffey; Hades-Caretaker; Hercules-Daniel O'Connell; Elpenor-Dignam; Agamemnon-Parnell; Ajax-Menton. (Ulysses, Eriphyle, Orion, Laertes, Prometheus, Tiresias, Proserpina, Telemachus, Antinous. Sense: Descent into nothingness).
Homeric Parallels: In books 10-11 of The Odyssey Circe advises Odysseus to go down to the realms of the dead for advice on his course of action. He speaks with many shades (Hercules, Agamemnon, his mother), including Tiresias, who tells him that it is the sea god Poseidon who is hindering his journey home. Tiresias warns Odysseus not to violate the cattle of Helios the sun god (see OXEN OF THE SUN) or his men will be lost and his wife beset by insolent suitors.
Summary: Bloom and his fellow mourners travel to the cemetery for the burial of Dignam. The occasion evokes a wealth of Bloomian meditations on birth, death and human frailty, including his reminiscences on Rudy, his own dead son, and his father, a suicide (a theme that, like anti-semitism, tactlessly arises in various conversations here).
Bloom's own propensities towards practicality and technology are also consolidated here, as he thinks about death and hygiene and the benefits of running a tram line to the cemetery. Sentimental talk on death articulates the emotional past of these people, just as talk of the dead Parnell invokes their public and historical plight (Charles Stewart Parnell, leader of the Irish Nationalist Party, almost forced the passage of the Home Rule Bill through Parliament in 1886. His career ended in shame when in 1890 his adulterous relationship with Katherine O'Shea came to light).
Comment: As well as being introduced to a lot of Dublin characters (Stephen's father for instance) we also meet a 'red-herring' — the man in the macintosh. This may seem an insignificant incident, but it is precisely the sort of 'plant' that the realist novel should pick up on and develop.
In Ulysses this character does crop up again: he erroneously enters history through the newspaper's obituary as M'Intosh, and Bloom wrongly appears as L. Boom (in EUMAEUS) and he will be 'personified' in CIRCE... but his 'real' identity is never resolved.
I really like this section. I love the way Bloom is so practical and matter of fact in the most incongruous of situations, whether the actual situation is meant to be serious and emotional or light hearted.
I am amazed at how Joyce uses one symbol and attaches to many different meanings to it.
I really enjoyed this episode as well. There's a lot of death in it (being a funeral and all) but its so full of life as well. The city is energetic (people in the streets, cattle, etc), the cemetery caretaker is lively & energetic, the cemetery itself has people wandering through it. Life continues. This is the first time that Bloom and Stephen come close to contact. Bloom recognizes him, which means he knows him, through Mr. Dedalus Sr., which shows that Dedalus Sr & Bloom are acquaintances or friends over the years.
I liked this:
"The first fellow that picked an herb to cure himself had a bit of pluck."
LOL! I've sometimes thought that about odd looking foods. Who would think of picking up a spear of asparagus from the ground and eating it? What made some plants seem okay to eat to our ancestors and others to be avoided? Or did they just eat everything at first and through trial-and-error decide what we humans can eat?
I liked the scene with the cattle roaming the streets of Dublin. That is interesting. It was 1904, cars were around (although not many) and still cattle were herded through the streets. Fun fact.
"Come and live in the graveyard. Dangle that before her."
LOL! You do kind of have to wonder how a graveyard caretaker proposes marriage to a young girl and how she would take it. It isn't everyone who gets to live in a graveyard and raise their children there. :D
I did make a note of the newspaper guy scribbling down McIntosh's name and how, since it wasn't really his name, it's so easy for perceptions & ideas to move forward on misinformation. McIntosh gets his name from the macintosh coat he's wearing. Then I found it interesting that McIntosh is a "red herring" who will appear throughout this book (see comment at the bottom of Post 312).
"Every Friday buries a Thursday if you come to look at it."
Life goes on. Death happens all the time and yet Life continues.
I found this an interesting way of putting it. I'd never thought of one day of the week as burying the day before.
I rather enjoy wandering through old cemeteries at times. There's one in Victoria, on Vancouver Island, that my step-dad and I wander through sometimes on our walks through the city (he's an avid walker). It's the Ross Bay Cemetery. Emily Carr is buried there (it took me several visits to find her family's gravesite).
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=r...
Here is the Carr family plot. Emily's spot is marked by the Canadian flag:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=c...
Like you Petra, the recurring theme of death , even though obvious as the episode takes place at a funeral. was what was most noticable to me. We have Dignam's funeral. Bloom thinking about Rudy, his father's suicide, and he was wondering where the funeral procession for a young boy went. Then there is Simon crying when thinking about his dead wife. I did read in an analysis that the focus here was on Bloom being an outsider . However, the death and more death was most prominent for me.I really felt for Bloom a number of times. When Simon talks about his dislke for Buck Mulligan and his concern for Stephen, Bloom thought that had Rudy lived, he would worry about him. It was also sad with the discussion of suicide considering that his father committed suicide . I also felt badly for him when they see Boylan in the street and he wonders what Molly and these men see in Boylan.
Also, we see again some antisemitic sentiments.
I like the man in the Macintosh. It feels like Joyce wants to go against conventions here. You'd expect the introduction of this character to mean something in the plot, yet as far as I can work out he has no meaning for the 'plot'.I did wonder whether he was meant to be Joyce himself, but I've not seen that suggested anywhere.
Diane S. wrote: "I am amazed at how Joyce uses one symbol and attaches to many different meanings to it."Me, too.
Joyce has put a boat load of symbols and references into this book. It makes me realize how much of a genius he must have been.
All of the symbols & references is probably what makes this a good re-read book. You could read it a dozen times and always find something new (I think.....not that I'm going to try. LOL!).
Angela, I meant to say that although we're surrounded by death in this episode, it's very life affirming. We're surrounded by death but we're alive and the emphasis is on Life, not Death. Bloom is an empathic person. I feel a bit sad for him many times, too. I really like him and hope he finds what he needs and wants to make him feel happy and included.
Gill, I like your thought that McIntosh could be Joyce. That's a great image! If it hasn't been suggested anywhere yet, you should put it forward to the "experts". Maybe it'll be included in some paper somewhere someday. Wouldn't that be something?!
Petra , I see what you mean about life being all around but it was the death , death and more death that impacted me the most .Gill , I read Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man many years ago and I think that Stephen in that book was supposed to be Joyce . I don't know if the same holds true in Ulysses .
Petra wrote: "I rather enjoy wandering through old cemeteries at times. There's one in Victoria, on Vancouver Island, that my step-dad and I wander through sometimes on our walks through the city (he's an avid w..."Nice to see these, Petra. I've been to visit Emily Carr's house in Victoria (I have relatives in Campbell River, previously in Nanaimo).
Gill, when you're here next we'll have to meet up. I live on the mainland but family live in Victoria so I'm often there.I've been to Emily's house, too. It's a sweet house, isn't it? My step-dad lives about a 5 minute walk from there.
OMG....next week's section.....I remember now that I really didn't like this section when I read it before. I'd forgotten about it. Sigh.....slogging through. I hope I get more out of it this time....maybe that will make this episode more interesting for me.
Anyone else started? Are you liking the format? (I don't, which may be why I dislike it?).
(not asking for discussion of content, just comments on format/style. I'm still not sure whether this book allows for spoilers....just being careful so as not to ruin anything for anyone)
Petra wrote: "Gill, when you're here next we'll have to meet up. I live on the mainland but family live in Victoria so I'm often there.I've been to Emily's house, too. It's a sweet house, isn't it? My step-dad ..."
No plans at pres, but will let you know if I'm over any time.
Are we in the printing press? I really liked this one. I liked how the newspaper headlines broke up the narrative.
Yeah, that's the one. I find the headlines distracting (maybe that was Joyce's intention?). It's getting better as I go along but still rather jumpy.
There's a lot of "thumping" going on. I rather like how that sets the atmosphere. The newsroom is a noisy place with lots of activity and its located in a noisy part of town.
Planning on getting to Episode 7 tomorrow . Will check back in when I'm finished .
No worries, Angela. Discussions don't start until the weekend. I just made a quick comment.....I'll be quiet now. :D (kidding....when am I ever quiet??!! LOL!)
Angela wrote: "If Bloom is supposed to be the protagonist , I wonder why the novel starts with Stephen ? Maybe for us to see the contrast in their personalities.? Looking forward to their meeting up."I guess Joyce wanted to follow Homer's structure from The Odyssey: the three first chapters focused on Telemachus, Ulysses's son and on his development before we got to actually meet Ulysses.
I read also your message about how different those two are: I loved being inside both minds and to watch how their thoughts differ so much. I'm really looking forward for their meeting up as well as what one will be thinking of the other! That should be at least interesting!
Angela wrote: "Gill , I read Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man many years ago and I think that Stephen in that book was supposed to be Joyce . I don't know if the same holds true in Ulysses ."
Yes, it's supposed to be a semi autobiographical novel.
Cranley - a character from A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - was briefly mentioned (actually, Stephen thought of him) in the first section. Now, characters from Dubliners are mentioned in the second section: M'Coy, Power and Kernan (from Grace) and Holohan (from A Mother).In Episode 5, while talking to M'Coy, Leopold thinks about a "valise tack", which also links back to the story Grace:
"Mr. Power did not relish the use of his Christian name. He was not straight-laced, but he could not forget that Mr. M'Coy had recently made a crusade in search of valises and portmanteaus to enable Mrs. M'Coy to fulfil imaginary engagements in the country. More than he resented the fact that he had been victimised he resented such low playing of the game."
Thanks Renato. I'm looking forward to reading D and APOTAAAYM at some stage, within the next couple of years is the intention.
I also want to read Joyce's other books now....I'm still waffling on Finnegans Wake because I've heard that that book makes this one seem like a cakewalk....but that has me curious, too, whether I'd make it through. Can't wait for the discussion for Episode 7 to start. I finished it this morning.
How's everyone doing? This episode is the hardest to read (so far), I think. I wonder if we're supposed to "get it" completely?
Petra , I thought it was hard too and am trying to think about what I want to say about it that makes sense so I'll check back in later or tomorrow after I've thought about it a bit more .
Episode 7 (Aeolus): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhW0Tr...
(Joyce reading from this episode in 1924)
The Sheila Variations:
http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=7575
Chapter Seven: Aeolus (summary & analysis)
(view spoiler)
I'll only read it on Monday, but I've heard it's really difficult!
Okay.....I'm really on the fence about this episode. I remember not liking it at all four years ago. This time, I liked bits & pieces but not much of the rest.I liked the part in the beginning with all the "thumpthump" action. It really made the noise of the printing presses and the activity out on the street come alive. Joyce did this great.
Bloom & Stephen almost meet twice in this episode. The first time they missed each other by a short while but the second time they missed each other by a hair. Joyce is teasing us, letting us know that they are destined to meet but keeping them apart. It's like wave-action.....flow, ebb, far apart, close together.
The professor (forgot his name) mentions Bloom in conversation when Stephen has joined the group:
"If Bloom were here, the professor said. The gentle art of advertisement."
Another Joyce teasing.
A couple of possible discussion ideas:1.
"At various points along the eight lines tramcars with motionless trolleys stood in their tracks,....., all still, becalmed in short circuit. Hackney cars, cabs, delivery waggons, mailvans, private broughams, aerated mineral water floats with rattling crates of bottles, rattled, rolled, horsedrawn, rapidly."
Could Joyce be saying that the public system(s)/groups/society are stuck in the present or past ("short circuit"ed), while individuals/private companies move forward into the future?
2.
"...but it's everyone eating everyone else. That's what life is after all."
Really? Is that what life is all about? A dog-eat-dog world?
At first, I thought this was a Gone with the Wind reference (although I confused about the publishing date and needed to check):"Gone with the wind. Hosts at Mullaghmast and Tara of the kings."
Book title and Tara are mentioned. LOL!
However, the footnotes set me straight:
"Gone with the wind" - this phrase, later used by Margaret Mitchell as her book's title, is from line 13 of Ernest Dowson's poem "Non sum quails eram bonae sub regno Cynarae" (I am not the man I was under the sway of the good Cynarae).
"Hosts of Mullaghmast and Tara of the kings" - Hosts = multitudes (OED). Tara (the seat of the ancient high kings of Ireland) and Mullaghmast held meetings' on, respectively, 15th August and 1st October 1843.
Right near the end, there reads "He halted on sir John Gray's pavement...."
I'm curious as to why the "s" in sir is lower case? Wouldn't it normally be "Sir John Gray"?
Other footnotes of interest:Page 104: "frozen music" - In his Philosophy of Art, the German philosopher Frederich von Schelling said that architecture is 'solidified music'.
Page 109: "one armed adulterer" - Lord Nelson, whose right arm was amputated after receiving a wound during the blockade of Cadiz. The statue of Nelson atop the pillar depicted him with his armless right sleeve tucked into the breast of his tunic, thus forming a 'handle'. Nelson carried on an indiscreet affair with Lady Emma Hamilton.
Page 110: "SOPHIST WALLOPS HAUGHTY HELEN...PEN IS CHAMP" = Antisthenes is the sophist in question who argued for Penelope's superiority over Helen. Helen ws the queen of Sparta and Penelope, Odysseus's wife, was the queen of Ithaca. 'Pen is champ' suggests the aphorism 'The pen is mightier than the sword'.
Antisthenes was a pupil of both Socrates and Gorgias. In his speech 'Of Helen and Penelope', he argued that Penelope's greater virtue, shown in her loyalty to her husband, made her more beautiful than Helen.
I found this quote interesting:"Everything speaks in its own way."
True and so well put, I think. I liked it.
Petra wrote: "At first, I thought this was a Gone with the Wind reference (although I confused about the publishing date and needed to check):"Gone with the wind. Hosts at Mullaghmast and Tara of t..."
But John Gray is an English Sir, perhaps Joyce is suggesting that he's not recognising him as a superior.
Petra wrote: "At first, I thought this was a Gone with the Wind reference (although I confused about the publishing date and needed to check):"Gone with the wind. Hosts at Mullaghmast and Tara of t..."
But John Gray is an English Sir, perhaps Joyce is suggesting that he's not recognising him as a superior.
What I noticed more so than in the other episodes is that it feels so busy and noisy . But after all we are in the city and in a newspaper office It was put perfectly in the Sheila Variation link "talk , talk ,talk ". There was much more conversation here and nor as much introspection as the other episodes . The headlines added to the noise , I thought .
The most exciting thing for me was that Bloom and Stephen almost met up !
Thanks, Gill. That makes sense. I keep forgetting the Irish/English thing.Yeah, all that talk and so many people, too. I had a hard time differentiating between them all. And the talk is all "surface" banality; no substance. Like Sheila says, "wind".
LOL, Angela! Isn't it funny that we're excited about Bloom & Stephen meeting? It's one normal day in the life of an ordinary couple of people and we're excited about them meeting in the street! LOL! That's actually kind of humorous. People meet all the time in all sorts of situations, yet I'm excitedly waiting for Bloom and Stephen to meet as if it were something special and different than the other meetings.
All of Dublin, people are shaking hands, greeting each other and clapping each other on the back and we're waiting for two everyday people who don't know each other (or at least not well...I'm sure they've met through Stephen's father?) to accidently meet up.
I find this blog, which is rather interesting. There are 2 entries for Episode 7, if you're interested (just scroll down):
http://theulysseschallenge.wordpress....
I love the visual in this line "The inner door was opened violently and a scarlet beaked face, crested by a comb of feathery hair, thrust itself in. The bold blue eyes stared about them....."For Joyce, a rooster; for me, back to Seinfeld - that is Kramer spot on.
Hi my name is Cosmic and I would like to join your discussion of Ulysses. I have read up to chapter 13. I believe that the group is at or finishing up chapter 7. I will start here. I started reading Ulysses in May. I have also been trying to stop and read some of the reference material that I am not familiar with. This has slowed me down but it has made reading Ulysses more meaningful, which is why I read.
Just finished my second read through of episode 7 and am feeling better about it. I am finding that on my first read, I am so busy checking the notes for all the names, events, and translations, that I am losing the flow of the story. I can't skip the notes though, as usually it seems important to catch the reference being made. An example is the parable of the plums. Without the analysis, I just took it as written, 2 old ladies sightseeing and having a picnic. There are enough random thoughts in this story I thought Why not? It does make sense though that it would be allegorical. This is much more of a political novel than I anticipated, making it easier to understand why it made it on to the banned/challenged book list.
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Let's talk about what we think of the no..."
I am enjoying the book. It's not like anything else I've read with the exception of some of Faulkner when he uses stream of consciouness. The reading of the text per se is not difficult,but what I have found difficult are all of the references to the classics and philosophical thought that I haven't a clue about. Fortunately, I have had help with your postings from various analyses as well as what I do in terms of reading the episode, reading a summary, rereading the episode, then reading an analysis. It's definetely work, but I like it. My husband keeps asking me if I'm doing my homework - lol.
As far as the "non story" as you say, I feel as if the real story is the back story - what has happened in the past that makes Bloom and Stephen feel as they do on this "ordinary day." Its from their thoughts that I try to piece together their pasts. For example, Stephen's recurring thoughts abut his mother's death and for Bloom, we wonder how the rift between him and Molly happened over the past 11 years.
So in some respects, even though it seems like nothing in paricular is happening on this day, a lot has happened before this day and we slowly find out about some of it.