Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017) Showing 151-200 of 1,985

[Gill]

I've got some way ahead, but I'm going to keep coming back to the chapter/episode we're on and join in the chat. Thanks for the schedule, Petra.

[Angela M]

Having read Episodes 1 and 2 , I may be doing the same as you , Gill . Now that I have read some , I don't want to lose momentum as the day goes on in the book .

[Angela M]

Gill ,
Are you just reading straight through or are you looking at summaries after each episode ?
I'm reading a summary after each and I'm finding it helpful since it lets me know if I " got" what happened .

[Evelyn]

The introduction in my version is by Jeri Johnson and is 26 pages long. I will admit here and now that I only made it three pages in before abandoning the introduction. To me it seemed as if it was written for people who have already read Ulysses with many references to it throughout. I will however come back and read it at the end.
I have not read The Odyssey, but have a vague sense of the story from reading The Penelopiad.
I read through the first episode, and then reread it consulting the notes section. The second time was much swifter, and I found the explanations in the notes made a lot of sense. I think the notes would not have been needed by a reader in the early 1900's as they would have been aware of the cultural references in the text.
On my recent holiday I toured a Martello Tower so could picture the gun rest and parapet in my mind's eye, as well as the staircases, the stone, the roundness and the large, heavy door. The view must have been magnificent.
One item the notes did not help with and I had to Google was the ashplant. I had decided it must have been slang for a cigarette (made sense to me), but as it turns out, it is a walking stick.

[Angela M]

Since Charbel and Evelyn have gotten the discussion off the ground, here are a few of my thoughts. Hope it's not too soon. I don't think I have given much away - at least I hope not.

-My first reaction without having read any synopsis or analysis was okay - I'll have to get used to this.

-Buck Mulligan is a pompous ass.

-Haines is a pompous ass, too.

-Stephen seems so guilt ridden over his mother's death.

All in all, didn't seem so bad getting what was going on and after reading the synopsis, I felt pretty good that I followed it.

The analysis, on the other hand, made me feel as though I didn't get it all. I could understand the references to Hamlet and the religious references, but I certainly did not get Martello Tower as Ithaca; maybe because I didn't read the Odessey.

[Evelyn]

In the analysis I read, Martello Tower is the Hellenic omphalos, which means the centre or hub of something.

[Evelyn]

I agree that Buck is pompous, he does seem to like to hear himself talk doesn't he? However, I feel that he does care about Stephen and seems genuinely concerned that he has somehow upset Stephen in the past. He keeps probing until Stephen admits why he is upset with him.

[Angela M]

I would not have known that in my first read without the analysts .

[Angela M]

I'm not as sure yet about Buck . I thought he was patronizing to Stephen .

[Gill]

Angela wrote: "Gill ,
Are you just reading straight through or are you looking at summaries after each episode ?
I'm reading a summary after each and I'm finding it helpful since it lets me know if I " got" what ..."

I'm reading around it as I go Angela. In fact the first couple of chapters I read a summary first. It's quite good reading it on a kindle because it links definitions and some explanations to some of the words I don't understand.

[Angela M]

Gill ,
I'm reading on my kindle too and I agree it's great to look things up . I hadn't thought about reading the summary first . I think I'll still read if after each episode .

[Petra]

I haven't read the Introduction yet. I may get to it later.

I tried to pay attention to the other themes that Joyce put into this chapter (art, colour, etc). The art is religion and there's a lot of references to this. The colours are white & gold and there's a lot of white & gold (mainly white) mentioned throughout the chapter: white teeth glistening, white corpuscles, sunlight, white breast, yellow glow, when they poured tea there was mention of a lemon (gold) and then the milk (white) arrived, etc.
It's interesting, I suppose, but seems more of a game the author is playing for himself to see how much he can put into a story without really adding to the story. So far, it's not needed. I wouldn't think differently about this chapter without so much mention of religion or white/gold.

I did get a kick out of this line on page 6 (after reading the footnote to the latin):
"The snotgrass sea. The scrotumtightening sea. Epi oinopa ponton."
The footnote translates the Latin to mean "on the winedark sea".
That phrase turns up so, so, so often in The Odyssey. So, Joyce is spoofing that repetition. :D

Angela, I didn't see the Tower as Ithaca before today either. I have read The Odyssey now and did hone in on that with this reading.
The tower is Stephen's home, as Ithaca is Telemachus' home. Neither one feels at home and both feel as if others are in charge of what should be their space. Buck even requests Stephen's key to the tower and a few cents for drink, much as the suitors in The Odyssey take over Telemachus' home and eat his food & drink his drink. The suitors are quickly taking Telemachus (and Penelope) to the poor house with all their eating & drinking.

It's sad that Stephen's last words in this chapter are "Home also I cannot go". He's a man without a place. I think Joyce did an excellent job of showing Stephen to be a man of guilt and lack of position/place/home. He's very much adrift.

Evelyn, I enjoyed The Penelopiad, too!

First joke I noticed (a bad one...but still a joke): (page 7)
"how are the secondhand breeks?........the mockery of it, he said contentedly, secondleg they should be".

[Evelyn]

Stephen is so much without place that at first I thought he was the visitor and it was Buck's place. Buck seems to be very much at home, making breakfast, giving the milk order, lending clothes, etc, that it wasn't until the mention that Stephen had the key because he paid the rent that I realized that he wasn't just visiting. I was very confused as to how he was going to collect his pay when he was away from wherever his home was.

I agree with you Petra in that I didn't really need the colours either. This reminds me though of the movie The Sixth Sense. I didn't realize until watching the extra documentary after the movie that the colour red was used throughout to identify when a ghost was present. Once I heard that, I could see how clues were given throughout the story that had I picked up on, would have made the ending much less of a shock. Perhaps colour will work similarily here?

[Charbel]

I finished the first episode, though my copy doesn't give each episode a title.
Regarding Stephen, I thought that he is a well-drawn character. I enjoyed his musings and his comments. I enjoyed the notion of the algebraic proof regarding Shakespeare and hope that maybe later on he would elaborate on that. The guilt over his mother's death was apt, but to me it didn't feel like a guilt stemming from not being a good son but from not being true enough to his mother's final religious request.

As for Buck, I like him and I despise him. He's more active than Stephen which appeals to me as a reader, but, as Angela said, he was quite patronizing.

[Petra]

Evelyn wrote: "I agree with you Petra in that I didn't really need the colours either. This reminds me though of the movie The Sixth Sense. I didn't realize until watching the extra documentary after the movie that the colour red was used throughout to identify when a ghost was present. Once I heard that, I could see how clues were given throughout the story that had I picked up on, would have made the ending much less of a shock. Perhaps colour will work similarily here?
..."

Nice point, Evelyn! I'd completely forgotten about the use of colour in The Sixth Sense. I'll keep looking at the colour aspect of Ulysses as we wander through and keep this in mind. Thanks!

[Petra]

Charbel wrote: "I finished the first episode, though my copy doesn't give each episode a title.
..."

I think I read somewhere that Joyce originally didn't title the chapters. These were added later (for convenience, I think).

[Petra]

I'm not sure what I think of Buck. He's extremely irritating but perhaps we don't know enough about him yet?
If I had someone like that at home, I wonder whether I'd want to return home in the evenings. He'd be tiring and overpowering and would make home feel so not like a home.
I suppose some of that tiring energy could be enthusiasm for life but it's so "in your face"....at least so far.

[Petra]

Angela wrote: "Gill ,
I'm reading on my kindle too and I agree it's great to look things up . I hadn't thought about reading the summary first . I think I'll still read if after each episode ."

That's when I read summaries, too, Angela (at the end). It made the reading slower (I think) but it gave me a chance to figure things out on my own (as much as I could).
I read a summary of the first chapter and it seems to have gone a bit better this time.
Although it isn't required in order to enjoy Ulysses, I'm enjoying seeing the references to The Odyssey. Perhaps I'll miss seeing them later on when Odysseus/Bloom appears but the first chapter was fairly obvious: confused Stephen/Telemachus, overpowering friends/suitors.

[Petra]

Charbel wrote: "The guilt over his mother's death was apt, but to me it didn't feel like a guilt stemming from not being a good son but from not being true enough to his mother's final religious request.
..."

I think this, too, Charbel.
Stephen's guilt seems to stem from him not being able to believe as whole-heartedly or, perhaps, to believe at all in something that his mother believed in to her very core.
She seemed to have an overpowering desire to know that her son believed in God so that she could go in peace. Without that knowledge, she could not pass peacefully and this is what gives Stephen his guilt: not having been able to give his mother the peace he believes she deserved and should have had.

[Petra]

Just read this from The Sheila Variations:

"Stephen is rooming with a couple of friends in an old round square tower (“stately plump Buck Mulligan, et al). He awakens. He has broken his glasses. It is June 16. He starts off for work."

Did anyone get that Stephen broke his glasses??? I'm going to go back and find that reference. It completely went over my head.

[Gill]

Petra wrote: "Just read this from The Sheila Variations:

"Stephen is rooming with a couple of friends in an old round square tower (“stately plump Buck Mulligan, et al). He awakens. He has broken his glasses. I..."
Do you think Sheila is talking about the cracked looking glass (mirror)?.

I've read the first chapter for a second time and felt I got loads more out of it second time around. At this stage I think it's wonderful.

[Petra]

I'm so glad you're enjoying it, Gill. I'm going to reread the first chapter today as well.

I don't know if she means the cracked mirror. But perhaps....
I guess I'm used to reading and knowing (mostly) what happened in what I read. It's surprising that something so physical (as broken glasses) completely went over my head.

I'm enjoying this book, too, although I've only read the first chapter so far. I'm going to try to keep with the schedule so that I keep current with this discussion. (that's the plan for now, anyway)

[Evelyn]

Petra wrote: "I'm not sure what I think of Buck. He's extremely irritating but perhaps we don't know enough about him yet?
If I had someone like that at home, I wonder whether I'd want to return home in the eve..."

I agree, very overpowering personality, I would find him very exhausting.

[Evelyn]

Petra wrote: "Just read this from The Sheila Variations:

"Stephen is rooming with a couple of friends in an old round square tower (“stately plump Buck Mulligan, et al). He awakens. He has broken his glasses. I..."

I didn't even get that he wore glasses? Will have to go back to it and review.

[Paula]

Evelyn wrote: "Petra wrote: "Just read this from The Sheila Variations:

"Stephen is rooming with a couple of friends in an old round square tower (“stately plump Buck Mulligan, et al). He awakens. He has broken ..."

I went back twice looking for some kind of reference to glasses, broken glasses, any kind of glasses. I didn't find anything.

[Petra]

Well, that was interesting (reading Chapter 1 again). I noticed a few things that I didn't the first time:

- Buck was quite defensive towards Stephen when Stephen told him about being upset about what he'd said about his mother being dead when Stephen visited Buck at his home right after his mother died (about a year ago). Buck had said something rude and insensitive, Stephen has been sitting on it all this time and Buck, when Stephen now mentioned it, got very defensive.....in a way that shows that he knew he was in the wrong but wasn't about to admit it.
This makes Buck into a coward of sorts; one that has no problem hurting or insulting people but won't admit to it if/when confronted with it.

- a man drowned 9 days ago and his body is still in the harbour. The townsfolks are waiting for today's high tide, at about 1pm, to bring the body to the surface.....there's a superstition that all bodies come to float on the 9th day.
I completely missed this situation the other time. I thought they were merely watching the fishing boats in the harbour.

- I can find no reference to glasses of any sort, broken or otherwise.

[Angela M]

I reread it also and I couldn't find broken glasses mention either but did notice that Stephen says to Buck ," It is a symbol of Irish art. The cracked looking-glass of a servant ."
This is in the scene where Stephen looks into the cracked mirror . Other than these references , I couldn't find any broken glasses .

I didn't think any more of Buck on my second reading than on my first . He chides Stephen for not kneeling down at his mother's deathbed but yet is totally irreverent himself pretending to say mass while shaving . I'll be interested to see if I change my mind about him but for now , I still think he's pompous .

Stephen doesn't come across as a very strong character at this point either . It's like Buck and Haines , as I think Evelyn implied have taken over his space .

[Petra]

Angela, your observation is Joyce's reference to the Odyssey. Telemachus' home was overrun by the suitors, who were bankrupting the estate with all their eating & drinking on Telemachus' expenses. Stephen's home is being overrun by Buck & Haines, who also ask him for monetary loans.

[Charbel]

Petra wrote: "Well, that was interesting (reading Chapter 1 again). I noticed a few things that I didn't the first time:

- Buck was quite defensive towards Stephen when Stephen told him about being upset about ..."

I understand what you mean about Buck. He kept insisting that he'd "forgotten" what he'd said, but I think his memory of the incident is intact. I think he was surprised that Stephen had heard what he said, and that he (Stephen) had the courage to confront him about it.

[Gökhan]

Do i have to read The Odyssey first to understand this? I am feeling lost :) Anyway, it is an interesting read.

[Renato]

I don't think you have to, although I am and that's why I can only start Ulysses in October!

[Petra]

You don't have to, Gokhan. It's an interesting side-idea that Joyce included in this book but isn't part of the overall story.

This has the potential of being a very confusing book. I encourage everyone to ask any and all questions they have about it. Between us all, we'll figure it out somehow (or come to the conclusion that there is no solution).

Gokhan, have you read the comments so far? Have they helped in understanding? Is there anything we can try to help with?

[Petra]

Charbel wrote: "He kept insisting that he'd "forgotten" what he'd said, but I think his memory of the incident is intact. I think he was surprised that Stephen had heard what he said, and that he (Stephen) had the courage to confront him about it. ..."

Agreed, Charbel.

[Petra]

Renato wrote: "I don't think you have to, although I am and that's why I can only start Ulysses in October!"

I'm looking forward to your input, Renato, and what you think of the two "parallel" books.

[Charbel]

Gökhan wrote: "Do i have to read The Odyssey first to understand this? I am feeling lost :) Anyway, it is an interesting read."

I don't think that's necessary. According to the introduction in my copy, the main "purpose" of The Odyssey in the novel is just to demonstrate Joyce's fondness of the Greeks, mainly Odysseus (Ulysses) who "unlike Achilles had no taste for violence" unless it's called for.

[Diane S ☔]

I like Stephen, like his demeanor, the way he views things and even the guilt he feels towards his mother's death. Love his humanity and his uncertainty. Buck, yes I too feel he has a very high opinion of himself, he seems to be a surface or reactionary character, almost manic at times.

[Evelyn]

Manic, good description Diane

[Petra]

How's everyone doing? There are a few people who have indicated that they will be reading along but haven't posted yet.

Is anyone still reading Chapter 1?
Are there any questions and/or comments on Chapter 1 that we haven't covered?
I realize that this is a difficult read and am requesting that everyone post any/all questions, ideas, thoughts as we move forward. Nothing is "silly" and everything said will help all of us as we move forward.

In the end, we're not going to completely understand this book. Joyce himself said that: "I've put in so many enigmas and puzzles that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant, and that's the only way of insuring one's immortality."
We may as well enjoy, laugh, question and rant/rave/storm at his book and what better way than with a group of like-minded people? :D

[Evelyn]

I am planning on reading the second episode tomorrow because I have the day off work : )

[Petra]

Evelyn, I'm glad.
I've started Chapter 2 and hope to finish within the next couple of days...maybe even tomorrow.

[Summerdale]

I just returned home yesterday from an unexpected out of town trip and will start the book tonight.

[Cordelia]

yes. I'm ready to move on to chapter 2. I enjoyed the 1st chapter. Was a bit lost in the first reading. Then read chapter 1 of Odyssey - this is really easy to read. Then reread chapter 1 of Ulysses - got lots and lots more out of it on 2nd reading. All the notes and comments from others helped too.

[Angela M]

I have read the second episode but want to reread it . I have out of town family visiting until Monday so I won't get to it until then . Just sneaking in here while I have a chance .

[Diane S ☔]

Just curious but has anyone else read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man? Read it a few months ago and Stephen is so much more vulnerable in Ulysses, a very different persona altogether.

Will start the second episode tomorrow.

[Angela M]

Diane , I read Portrait .... a very long time ago in college , and I have to admit I don't remember a lot about . It's been so long .

[Petra]

Diane, I haven't read anything else by Joyce. Would you recommend Portrait?

[Scamel]

I'll join you and see how far I get this time. It's the third attempt so hopefully this means that I'll get to the end.

I've read the first chapter and noticed how the invocation to God at the beginning mirrors the opening lines of The Odyssey 'Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twist and turns ...' (Fagles translation).

I love The Odyssey, it's one of my favourite books so I'm going to reread it along with Ulysses as a treat.

[Charbel]

Petra wrote: "How's everyone doing? There are a few people who have indicated that they will be reading along but haven't posted yet.

Is anyone still reading Chapter 1?
Are there any questions and/or comments..."

It's weird that he said that. I remember reading somewhere that Joyce wanted his main character to be nothing but simple. He decided to go about it, apparently, by dictating too many mundane occurrences to such a degree that the whole book wound up being incredibly complex. I guess he achived his goal in the most paradoxical of ways.

I plan to start chapter two tomorrow.

[Diane S ☔]

Portrait is a very assessable book and said to be semi-autobiographical. A very different Stephen is showed in that one, he is much more pompous and arrogant. It is a much shorter read, a little over 300 pages, I liked it very much. Though so far I am liking the humbleness of this Stephen in Ulysses much better.

[Petra]

Chapter 2 (Nestor)

Synopsis of Chapter 2 in The Odyssey:
(view spoiler)[When the assembly meets the next day, Aegyptius, a wise Ithacan elder, speaks first. He praises Telemachus for stepping into his father’s shoes. Telemachus then gives an impassioned speech in which he laments the loss of both his father and his father’s home—his mother’s suitors have taken it over. He rebukes them for consuming his father’s oxen and sheep as they pursue their courtship when any decent man would simply go to Penelope’s father, Icarius, and ask him for her hand in marriage.
Antinous blames the impasse on Penelope, who, he says, seduces every suitor but will commit to none of them. If Penelope can make no decision, Antinous declares, then she should be sent back to her father so that he can choose a new husband for her. The dutiful Telemachus refuses to throw his mother out and calls upon the gods to punish the suitors. At that moment, a pair of eagles, locked in combat, appears overhead. The soothsayer interprets their struggle as a portent of Odysseus’s imminent return and warns the suitors that they will face a massacre if they don’t leave. The suitors balk at such foolishness, and the meeting ends in deadlock.
As Telemachus is preparing for his trip to Pylos and Sparta, Athena visits him again, this time disguised as Mentor, another old friend of Odysseus. She encourages him and predicts that his journey will be fruitful. She then sets out to town and, assuming the disguise of Telemachus himself, collects a loyal crew to man his ship. Telemachus himself tells none of the household servants of his trip for fear that his departure will upset his mother. He tells only Eurycleia, his wise and aged nurse. She pleads with him not to take to the open sea as his father did, but he puts her fears to rest by saying that he knows that a god is at his side.
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Analysis of Chapters 1 & 2 of The Odyssey:
(view spoiler)[The Odyssey is an epic journey that focuses on Odysseus’s nostos (“return home” or “homeward voyage”). But Odysseus’s return is not the only journey in the Odyssey, nor is it the one with which the story begins.
Telemachus finds himself coming of age in a household usurped by his mother’s suitors, and it is he who, with the support of Athena and the other gods, must step into the role of household master that his father left vacant nearly twenty years earlier. Thus, in addition to a physical journey to Pylos and Sparta to learn more about his father’s fate, Telemachus embarks upon a metaphorical journey into manhood to preserve his father’s estate.
By focusing on Telemachus’s swift maturation, the narrator highlights the tension between Telemachus and the opportunistic suitors as it reaches a climax. Spurred on by the gods, Telemachus must confront the suitors to honor his father.
Telemachus has already begun his own psychological journey by the end of Book 1 (TELEMACHUS). Homer highlights his progress by showing how astounded the suitors are to be told so abruptly that they will have to leave the palace after the next day’s assembly. Indeed, calling the assembly is itself a sign of Telemachus’s awakening manhood.
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From http://pers-www.wlv.ac.uk/~fa1871/joy... :
TIME: 10.00 am.
SCENE: A private boy's school in Dalkey, a village about a mile southeast of the Martello tower.
ORGAN: None
ART: History
COLOURS: Brown
SYMBOL: Horse
TECHNIQUE: Catechism (personal)
CORRESPONDENCES: Nestor-Deasy; Pisistratus, Nestor's youngest son-Sargent; Helen-Mrs O'Shea (Parnell's mistress and later wife). (Telemachus. Sense: Wisdom of Antiquity).


The Sheila Variations (Nestor): http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=7548


Analysis of Chapter 2 of Ulysses (sorry, I didn't note where I got this from; when I find it again, I'll post credit):
(view spoiler)[Episode Two, “Nestor,” takes place at the boys school where Stephen teaches. It is a half-day for the students and Stephen will leave for the day after he teaches his class and is paid by Mr. Deasy. The episode focuses on teaching and learning. We see Stephen positioned first as a teacher and then as a student in his conversation with Mr. Deasy. The subject of both educational scenes is history, and history as linked to memory. Stephen’s history lesson for his class relies on their memory of learned historical facts. Mr. Deasy’s impromptu history lesson for Stephen is anchored by Deasy’s own personal memories of historical events. Stephen himself resists the linking of history with memory. For Deasy to define history in terms of his personal recollections affords him too much control over the reconstruction of it (thus do Haines and Deasy use history to absolve themselves of responsibility). For Stephen, history is something that he cannot control: “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” Stephen’s statement refers both to his grappling with the circumstances of his own past, and to the philosophical problem of how history should be used to understand present circumstances.
Part of Stephen’s personal history that has nightmarishly, though subtly, plagued him through this episode and the first is his mother’s death. Stephen’s unsolvable riddle about the fox burying his grandmother suggests this personal pain. As he tutors Sargent, Stephen’s ruminations about a mother’s love and love for one’s mother also evoke her absence and stand in contrast to Deasy’s later misogyny. Stephen’s imagination of a mother’s love creates a moment of compassion and allows for an effective teaching between Stephen and Sargent. Otherwise, Stephen’s interactions with his students have been distracted and cryptic. Stephen himself credits Deasy with accuracy when Deasy intuits later in the chapter that Stephen was not born to be a teacher.
On the whole, Deasy seems pompous and self-righteous. We are prepared for the didactic nature of Deasy’s conversation with Stephen by our first glimpse of Deasy on the hockey field, yelling at the students without listening to them. Deasy is unperceptive—mistakenly assuming that Stephen is Fenian, he launches into a history lecture. The purpose of this lecture is less to teach than to assert authority, an authority that is undermined by several factual errors that Deasy makes. Like Haines, Deasy (a Unionist from the north) is pro-British as well as anti-Semitic. Just as Haines used history to clear himself of blame in Episode One (“It seems history is to blame”), so Deasy uses history to blame others, notably Jews and women.
This prelude of anti-Semitism will be evoked later in the day, as Jewish Leopold Bloom faces similar bigotry. Deasy’s anti-Semitism rests on his sense that the mercantile Jews have brought decay to England. According to Deasy, the Jews have sinned against “the light,” the light being those Christians who understand history as moving toward one goal—the manifestation of God’s plan. But the presentation of Deasy’s character undermines his own convictions. Instead of Christianity and light, Deasy himself deals in coins and material goods. His moralistic color scheme, in which good Christians are light and dangerous Jews are dark, is not to be the color scheme of Ulysses, in which the two heroes, Stephen and Bloom, are dressed in black, and the dangerous characters, such as Buck Mulligan, are associated with brightness.
Notably, Stephen challenges only Deasy’s anti-Semitism during the conversation, and not any other of Deasy’s ill-considered comments. Stephen’s overall passivity and politeness toward Deasy seem to have more to do with his unwillingness to participate in a political argument on Deasy’s terms. Stephen’s bohemian-intellectual comment that God is “a shout in the street” is a clear departure from the terms of Deasy’s argument, and it confuses him. Deasy is aggressive and likens their conversation to armed confrontation—breaking lances. Stephen dislikes violence. The subject of his morning history lesson, Pyrrhus, is notable for winning a battle, yet reckoning the cost of the violence too great. During his conversation with Deasy, Stephen is rattled by the noises from the hockey field outside. He envisions the field hockey match as a joust and imagines the boys’ moving bodies as sounds and gestures of bloody battle. Rather than remaining in this atmosphere, prey to Deasy’s aggressive comments, Stephen politely signals the end of the conversation by rustling the sheets of Deasy’s letter. When Deasy runs after Stephen in the driveway to report an anti-Semitic joke, Stephen’s non-participation is palpable. His thoughts are silent; his mind has moved on.
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