The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
International Booker Prize
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2018 MBI longlist and shortlist discussion
The Melancholy of Resistance is highly rated. Although I have to be honest and say when I read it I enjoyed it but I didn't quite get why people were putting him in the Sebald/Bolano bracket as the "greatest author you've never heard of if you don't read translated fiction." Then I read War on War and I got it - and then Satantango and Seiobo and was blown away.
So I would start with Melancholy and the advantage over Satantango is that the movie is only 2.5 hours rather than 7!
Paul wrote: "Does feel the jurors in both cases are atoning for the omissions of the past.."I cannot agree in the case of K. He won the prize very recently in the last year when it was awarded for a total body of work (including I assume Satantango). In fact the chair of the jury said that their serious debate was about exactly the opposite - whether they should not shortlist the book because previous jurors had honoured the author: "We talked at length about not allowing repeat performances like Krasznahorkai and Han. But there was a sense we had to consider the novels and find the best fiction instead."
Suggest we - have a new rankings thread for shortlist - Hugh it is set up but closed to non mods, please add your placeholder and then open for comments
- but keep this thread for shortlist discussion which I can rename as long and shortlist, since I suspect the debate as to what was left on/off will rumble on
Gumble's Yard wrote: "Paul wrote: "Does feel the jurors in both cases are atoning for the omissions of the past.."I cannot agree in the case of K. He won the prize very recently in the last year when it was awarded fo..."
Hadn't seen that. Interesting. Even less excuse for their choices then!
Incidentally I do think the MBI author prize win counted against Krasznahorkai when it came to the initial MBI book prize. Satantango was technically eliglble as it hadn't actually been published in the UK until much later than US, but the author prize panel cited it as one of their key books (having read the US version, like the rest of us in the UK).
Which leads into my start of the winner speculationI had until now made two assumptions
- FiB was the very likely winner (like Meike this looked the case even before the longlist was published)
- White Book could not win given the prize in its new format has only been going 3 years and the author/translator have already won
But two things have made me pause for thought
- It seems to be that FiB simply has to win (or at least come close to winning) BTBA next year (its a lot more US than UK relevant) - which is fine other than I have seen this week that apparently the BTBA and MBI have made a habit of not even longlisting books which have won the other
- Following on from the judges comment above - she added "And The White Book is so different from The Vegetarian that we could be talking about a different writer". Interestingly a point also made by a reviewer in last week's London Review of Books - albeit he made it clear he really liked Human Acts (Han Kang/Deborah Smith's third translated novel) and did not rate White Book.
Mod
The Shadow Jury will produce our shortlist next week. Our Chair's take on the official shortlist:Without wanting to give too much away, let's just say that there was definitely a raise of the eyebrow when I saw the list.
There are several big names there, but are they big books? Well, that's a matter of opinion, and we've all got one of those.
Of course, some opinions are more important than others, though, which brings me nicely to our Shadow Panel. As was the case last year, with the tight turnaround between the long- and shortlist announcements, we have decided to delay our decision, this time for one week. This will allow us to get the views of as many judges as possible on as many of the longlisted titles as we can. The Shadow Shortlist will be made public on Thursday, the 19th of April, at 12 p.m. (London time), when you'll be able to see how similar our verdict is to that of the 'real' judges.
And when I say 'similar'...
Pick a translator from German for the jury and one known for having very strong views. And then neither German language book makes the shortlist. Were there 'I wouldn't have translated it like that...' discussions one wonders.Although to be fair to Michael Hoffman he is quite aggressively supportive for the rights of translators to impose their own views over the author's - "I mostly translate dead authors, they are more appreciative"
Paul wrote: "Pick a translator from German for the jury and one known for having very strong views. And then neither German language book makes the shortlist. Were there 'I wouldn't have translated it like that..."To be fair though, I don't think Erpenbeck would have deserved to be shortlisted, and for reasons we already discussed there are certainly many (equally valid) views on how to properly translate Ransmayr's beautiful, lyrical German. So I am fine with neither of them being on the shortlist, and I am very happy that Ransmayr got more international attention for his writing, because this guy is truly phenomenal.
I am hoping for next year, maybe we'll see Kehlmann's Tyll, Kracht's The Dead: A Novel (he also needs more international attention, he's brilliant!), or a translation of Strunk's Der goldene Handschuh (which is genius).
Yes fair both had their issues but I still wonder whether critique of the translations came up. It must be a different experience judging a translation you could have done yourself.Shame Insane didn't make it this year! We'd have had fun discussing that and it could have taken the slot for books about someone interested in the music industry :-)
Paul wrote: "Yes fair both had their issues but I still wonder whether critique of the translations came up. It must be a different experience judging a translation you could have done yourself.Shame Insane d..."
Totally agree - I would also love to know whether the judges did critique the translations, and what they thought of them. And I would have loved to discuss "Insane" - although not at the expense of a certain ex-owner of a French record store! :-)
That was indeed the place I was thinking it could have taken :-)Generally judges don't I think. Not least as no one on that panel speaks Iraqi, Korean etc. And Daniel Hahn, a multi-lingual translator who has been on the MBI and Impac panels has said he believes in simply judging the English language book as it is presented - it doesn't matter if something odd is a translation error or in the original, and equally fidelity to the original isn't part of the prize.
Just I do wonder if that particular judge on this year's panel resisted the temptation.
Paul wrote: "Just I do wonder if that particular judge on this year's panel resisted the temptation."Although your reasoning regarding simply judging the English version of the book makes perfect sense (and is the most fair way to do it), I think I would have a hard time resisting the temptation!
Paul wrote: "Gumble's Yard wrote: "Paul wrote: "Does feel the jurors in both cases are atoning for the omissions of the past.."I cannot agree in the case of K. He won the prize very recently in the last year ..."
Not quite true. 'Satantango' was actually longlisted for the IFFP, but was controversially overlooked for the shortlist in favour of 'Bundu', a South-African adventure-romance novel. Several of his other books were MBIP-eligible in a later year, but I heard whispers that not all of them were submitted (my money was really on 'War and War' that year...).
Mod
I agree, Hugh. I am struggling to decide between those two. Fortunately, I am not a judge, so I am allowed an equal first place.
Incidentally 30 minutes until the shadow jury announces its shortlist .....I won't spoil the surprise but I can say that I am a lot happier with our choices than the official one!
I think this prize - like all the best prizes - needs a reader's panel next year.
Although perhaps a readers panel that actually reads the books in time for the shortlist announcement? I know you did of course.
The shadow jury shortlistJavier Cercas (Spain) & Frank Wynne
– The Impostor (MacLehose Press)
Han Kang (South Korea) & Deborah Smith
– The White Book (Portobello Books)
Ariana Harwicz (Argentina), Sarah Moses & Carolina Orloff
– Die, My Love (Charco Press)
Christoph Ransmayr (Austria) & Simon Pare
– The Flying Mountain (Seagull Books)
Olga Tokarczuk (Poland) & Jennifer Croft
– Flights (Fitzcarraldo Editions)
Wu Ming-Yi (Taiwan) & Darryl Sterk
– The Stolen Bicycle (Text Publishing)
Honourable mentions from Go Went Gone and Frankenstein in Baghdad which only just missed out.
The other 3 officially shortlisted books didn't even get close to making our final 6.
https://tonysreadinglist.wordpress.co...
Well, at least The White Book and Flights made it.
Mod
Ditto for me and Flying Mountain (ie not convinced but can see why others love it). Actually that was probably the one book that this forum didn't show much love for - wasn't too close to the M&G shortlist at all.There was a surprising consensus generally I would say at least on the 8 that deserved to be on the list (except we only had 6 places)- and 5 that definitely didn't (3 of which the judges bizarrely picked).
Although Vernon Subutex is a marmite book so fair enough pick it if you picked it for the longlist (and I need a target for my daily two minutes hate!).
I'm also pleased to see Die, My Love get more recognition. And I didn't read The Flying Mountain. I can see how The Stolen Bicycle gets its place although I wasn't wild about it. It's only The Imposter where I would disagree - it's not even in English yet (Spanglish shouldn't count). Paul and I have different books for our daily two minutes' hate.
Spectator podcast on the MBI featuring-Boyd Tonkin, the perpetual IFFP chair and 1st MBI chair
and
- Frank Wynne, translator of the two books Neil and I spend 2 minutes a day thinking about
Tonkin talks a lot about small presses, Fitzcarraldo in particular
Wynne talks about various aspects of translation, two in particular that may address issues from the two MBI books (although he does not refer to them specifically)
- the need to respect an author's style even if not particular literary (tempting as it might be to improve their prose)
- cadence and the way Spanish authors splice sentences into one. They apparently use ...and...and...and... a lot, wonder if that is the origin of the semicolons?
Podcast slightly marred by the fact that the podcast comes across as if he has not read any of the book nor was aware there was a longlist (If I am being kind, perhaps he is aiming as listeners in that position)
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04...
More excitingly (well for those of us in London) the events are on sale...Foyles/English Pen
Thursday 17th May 2018 7pm - 8pm 107 Charing Cross Road Literary Event
The evening will consist of a discussion from the translators of five of the shortlisted works led by journalist, editor and literary critic Ellah Wakatama Allfrey and followed by an audience Q&A.
http://www.foyles.co.uk/Public/Events...
and
Waterstones presents the 2018 Man Booker International Prize Shortlist Readings
Monday 21st May 19:00 at The Upper Hall, Emmanuel Centre, Marsham St, London, SW1P 3DW
The authors and translators on the Man Booker International Prize 2018 shortlist come together for a very special panel discussion, with selected readings.
https://www.waterstones.com/events/wa...
Who's in?
Listening to the official Man Booker podcast with two of the judges introducing the shortlist - very effusive about LK, AMM and Vernon Subutex. Tempting to read things into their reactions...
Please no! If one of those 3 wins I will know how you felt last year Tony.Actually Tony listening to this in a way the striking thing to me was how White Book gets rather brushed over vs the other five. Perhaps that is the thing to read - given it is so clearly the best book (see dynamic rankings page) - that we will get the detailed praise when it inevitably wins?
Or more prosaically, Lisa Appignanesi is generally effusive, and Michael Hoffman very flat, he gets Human Acts first to mumble about, and after that Appignanesi realised she needs to expand on his remarks.
I was also pleased to hear the Chair admit that the next step in the prize was 'regret' for the books they left off!
Interesting also that Hoffman said while he will re-read the books, he isn't really open to changing his mind from that or from comments from other judges.
Hihihi...Subutex! Subutex! Subutex! :-)
Paul - Yes, I get the feeling Hofmann makes his choice and that's that - which makes the omission of the German-language books even more intriguing ;)
I re-listened to the official Man Booker Podcast, and is it just me, or it sounds like Appignanesi and Hoffmann absolutely love The World Goes On? They gushed on it, more so than the other five titles. I know I shouldn't read too much into it especially since the other three were not there to give their opinions, but now I'm scared. I remember three of the judges of the 2016 MBI came to Paris to discuss the shortlist at Shakespeare and Company. And even with a month to go until the official announcement, I think the public (myself included) left that discussion almost 100% certain that The Vegetarian was going to win given how much the judges were gushing about it.
Barbara wrote: "I re-listened to the official Man Booker Podcast, and is it just me, or it sounds like Appignanesi and Hoffmann absolutely love The World Goes On? They gushed on it, more so than the other five tit..."Interesting re the Vegetarian (although it was the standout book).
Problem also is that they really seemed to be gushing about Krasznahorkai the author - which I fully support: if War on War, Seiobo or Satantango were on the list there would be only one winner - rather than this book.
My library has three copies of Satantango scattered across the city. One of them is reserved and on its way to my branch, so I will be reading it quite soon.They don't have any of his others, not even the shortlisted one.
I hope the MBI doesn't fall into the 'right author, wrong book' behaviour which the main Booker is prone to from time to time, but at least I will be able to judge whether it is 'right author'.
Much as I enjoyed the Vegetarian, Human Acts and The White Book are (even) better.And To the End of the Land is Grossman's more famous book.
So one could argue they are 2/2 so far on right author, wrong book.
WndyJW wrote: "We in the US are at a disadvantage for book releases and I’m thinking it would be cheaper for me to fly to England, buy the books and pay the extra carry on fee then to continue to pay postage for ..."Try Book Depository, which is often less expensive than Amazon (albeit they are owned by Amazon) and has free shipping if you can wait a few days.
I also think for a prize which is I think designed to promote world literature to a sceptical English public , it would hardly showcase the amazing diversity of that literature to have the 2018 winner being one of the 2015 and 2016 winners. The prize has only had 4 non-English writing winners in its full 12 year history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Boo...
Gumble's Yard wrote: "I also think for a prize which is I think designed to promote world literature to a sceptical English public , it would hardly showcase the amazing diversity of that literature to have the 2018 win..."I absolutely agree with you. But based on the interviews I have read with the judges so far, they seem to be promoting this idea that the winner will be chosen solely on "literary merit" (whatever that might mean) rather regardless of past achievements.
I am biased in my disdain - I really want Tokarczuk to win and it's not looking good.
Gumble's Yard wrote: "I also think for a prize which is I think designed to promote world literature to a sceptical English public , it would hardly showcase the amazing diversity of that literature to have the 2018 winner being one of the 2015 and 2016 winners."I agree too, but the changes after the 2015 award were so sweeping that it might as well be a different prize. Unfortunately that still counts against Han Kang.
It is a different prize or rather it was a different prize: this is the successor to the old IFFP (to which it is very similar) not the old MBI.
I would have very mixed feelings of Krasznahorkai won. On the one hand he is, I think, perhaps the world's finest living author so great to bring people to him. (And the old MBI had very little profile). On the other, hope booksellers pretend this book is out of stock and sell his masterpieces instead. Best he gets the Nobel instead, albeit has to be a good chance there is no Nobel this year.
Surely the IFFP went into run off and was merged into the MBI?The judges clearly believe it is the same prize as the old MBI given their comments on repeat winners.
The judges views on things are not to be taken too seriously -see their choice of shortlist
Gumble's Yard wrote: "Surely the IFFP went into run off and was merged into the MBI?The judges clearly believe it is the same prize as the old MBI given their comments on repeat winners."
That's all marketing, focusing on the Booker brand - the reality is that we should be looking at the IFFP as the predecessor of the MBIP book prize.
Tony wrote: "That's all marketing, focusing on the Booker brand - the reality is that we should be looking at the IFFP as the predecessor of the MBIP book prize."Exactly!!
Paul wrote: " Best he gets the Nobel instead, albeit has to be a good chance there is no Nobel this year. "Give a Nobel literature prize to someone who writes like this and you're asking for things to fall apart:
He saw an animal up on a hill
Chewing up so much grass until she was filled.
He saw milk comin' out but he didn't know how.
"Ah, think I'll call it a cow."
He saw an animal that liked to snort,
Horns on his head and they weren't too short.
It looked like there wasn't nothin' that he couldn't pull.
"Ah, think I'll call it a bull."
There wasn't nothin' they could do but give ol' Bob that prize.
Interesting right up of the MBI from Asymptote Journal (which if any fan of translated fiction doesn't read it, you should rectify immediately)https://www.asymptotejournal.com/blog...
From Barbara Halla, who post here, so great to see the many references to the M&G forum as well as the shadow jury - and indeed a link to one particularly ridiculous (!) review of one of the books....
Paul wrote: "Interesting right up of the MBI from Asymptote Journal (which if any fan of translated fiction doesn't read it, you should rectify immediately)https://www.asymptotejournal.com/blog......"
Well, she doesn't call your review outright ridiculous, she just states re Subutex 1: "Ultimately, this book is a depiction of human loneliness and speaks directly to issues affecting contemporary Paris, socially and politically", thus agreeing with the result of the Neil-Meike-Test (I also compared Subutex 2 with the terrible EOICF in my review.) :-)
To be fair other than that the rest of her article is very well written :-)
Paul wrote: "To be fair other than that the rest of her article is very well written :-)"Critiquing the critic - this forum is so meta! :-)
Thank you again for the shout out Paul. Over at Asymptote we appreciate all sorts of publicity :-) And I would never dare criticise your reviews as ridiculous! I am a bit split on Vernon S. myself: I think it depicts certain aspects of Paris very well, but there are some limitations to Despentes's chosen style. Anyway, it is always a joy to read and participate in the discussion in this group. I hope you guys do not mind me using your debates as an (un)official source of where general opinion stands with regards to the MBI books.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Under the Rock: The Poetry of a Place (other topics)Attrib. and other stories (other topics)
The Dead (other topics)
Satantango (other topics)
The Dead (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Helen Oyeyemi (other topics)Laurent Binet (other topics)
Javier Cercas (other topics)
Virginie Despentes (other topics)
Jenny Erpenbeck (other topics)
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Hmmm... am not so sure if that is a ringing endorsement - or not!!"
It was meant as a tongue-in-cheek dig at the book. It was my first by K (can't spell his full name, so K will have to do) and, as Paul has said, probably not his best. What I would say, though, is that it hasn't put me off trying one of his "better" works to see if they are actually better. I found that several parts of this one dragged and he has a very unique style, but it was interesting enough to mean I will try one of his novels at some point soon.
Paul, the only book my library stocks is "The Melancholy of Resistance". Is that worth reading or am I going to have to pay money to try one his books?