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Leviathan Wakes
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March 2018 group read 1 - Leviathan Wakes
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Jo
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rated it 2 stars
Mar 01, 2018 08:45AM
This is to discuss joint winner of the poll, Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey
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I'm 40% of the way through this one. It's not really grabbing me yet. I was expecting more based on how popular the series is, both the book series and the TV show.
I really liked it. Excellent character & a great ethical dilemma that's a spoiler.
It isn't bad, but it isn't great either. It think it is popular because it is a buffet, everyone can find a flavor they link in the novel. Interplanetary politics, detective noir, space battles, alienish stuff, intrigue, thriller-ish, love story, etc. It doesn't go into much dept, but the flavors are there and it is an easy read. Each chapter is about ten pages long, one main character per chapter, one event per chapter, it is the Kevin J. Anderson recipe with better prose. It makes a great read for the commute, but it doesn't had much to sci-fi lit. I wonder if it will be remembered in 50 years.
I read this in German, which might have affected my opinion, but I didn't really get why this book is so hyped. I just found the plot a bit silly. They crew seemed to be forever going from one narrow escape to another in a contrived way. Perhaps the latter books in the series were better.
The zombie vomiting humans were just silly IMHO.
I actually thought the writing for the TV adaptation was better.
I've read it the year it was short-listed for Hugo (didn't win) and this was my return to SF after a hiatus for more than a decade. it was maybe the reason I liked it so much. It is strange to read here that many people see it as a so-so book.
I agree, Oleksandr. I thought the setting was excellent & really liked the characters. I found the overall theme (view spoiler)
Would people recommend reading this despite having seen the tv series? I've been considering it for a while, but I adore the show and not sure what more I'd get out of it
Holly wrote: "Would people recommend reading this despite having seen the tv series? I've been considering it for a while, but I adore the show and not sure what more I'd get out of it"Depends on your personality, I guess. I've read Altered Carbon the novel and hated it, but I still watched the Netflix series (and hated it) to see how it compared to the novel. And because I like sci-fi in its many forms.
I haven't seen the Expense TV series, but the novel isn't that bad. It is just meh. Depends if you like space operas enough to read it and make your own opinion of it. If you like sci-fi literature enough... If you're curious about the book series enough... Etc. If not, or if time is precious to you and you need to be sure about what you read, than skip it. Otherwise, enjoy. There is nothing wrong in reading for the sake of reading.
I think there are just much better space operas out there (at least in the first two books - which is as far as I have read). The plot of the first, just seems unbelievable with the Holden gang going from one disaster to another, somehow always surviving while everyone around him dies. I can buy this once or twice but it just keeps happening.
Most of the rest of the ideas are just pedestrian: alien probe in solar system (check); Earth UN vs Mars colony vs Belters (check); immoral corporations (check); vomiting space zombies (OK -didn't see that coming).
Well i'm quite enjoying it, work is manic at the moment so it's nice to have something to read that whizzes along and doesn't take much concentration. I was just looking up what is considered Space Opera and it includes the Ann Leckie Ancilliary series which i've just finished. I find it difficult to put the same books in the same category. Leviathan Wakes is far more light weight, you can see why it's been made into a tv series.
Just found out James Corey is two people (nobody tells me anything). I find it an easy read as well. It is again a lot of pages, hard work to finish both month's reads.
Jo wrote: "I was just looking up what is considered Space Opera and it includes the Ann Leckie Ancilliary series which i've just finished. I find it difficult to put the same books in the same category. Leviathan Wakes is far more light weight, you can see why it's been made into a tv series. "I don't want to be a spoiler either. I am glad people are enjoying the book.
Some of my favorite space operas are: House of Suns by Alastair Reynolds; A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge; any of the Ian Banks culture novels.
Radiantflux wrote: "Some of my favorite space operas are: House of Suns by Alastair Reynolds; A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge; any of the Ian Banks culture novels. "I have every intention of reading some of the Culture novels this year. My local library has a couple but not the first and I was told that you don't need to read them in order.
I am kind of enjoying Leviathan Wakes (now at 85%) but it is becoming more and more implausible. It kind of makes me want to read the next in the series to see how you can continue from here.
The group home page lists this book as one of the March book reads. But in the nominations thread it states this book is to be read in May. How confusing! Also, when you hit view activity from the group home page, it does not bring one to this discussion topic. :(I read this book last year and had mixed feelings about it. I think I like one of these two authors' work, but not the other's. So for many pages I would be enjoying the story. Then it would go off the rails into random plot meander. I liked the story of the detective's trying to determine what happened to the privileged daughter, but couldn't take the pointless wandering that kept getting him no closer to an answer. The wandering seemed like an excuse to up the page count while having zombies chase the heroes. I ended up putting the book down soon after that pointless chase when the characters got off the station to begin wandering somewhere else equally meaningless and unmotivated.
Leviathan Wakes nevertheless qualifies as an example of a subgenre of science fiction whose list I just created: Gothic Science Fiction, or Space Goth. Check it out: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...
Dan wrote: "The group home page lists this book as one of the March book reads. But in the nominations thread it states this book is to be read in May. How confusing! Also, when you hit view activity from the ..."Normally this is my fault / incompetence but I don't see where it says that it is nominated in May 2018. I can see if you click on view activity it gives nominations for May 2018 but the nominations do not include this book. I don't set the links here it is Goodreads. In fact I really don't understand why it give the thread for this month's other book and nominations that don't mention this book but anyway :-( If i've put the wrong date somewhere else let me know where and I will gladly change.
Mod
The goodreads profile page for this author contains no information, just a link to his/their website. And since he/they are a "Goodreads author", there is no way to edit it. How rude!
I've bought the book, but not started it yet.
Dan wrote: "The group home page lists this book as one of the March book reads. But in the nominations thread it states this book is to be read in May. How confusing! "Whatever the problem may have been before, I could not duplicate it just now. Sorry. Please disregard.
P.S. What do you think of that Gothic Science Fiction list? Can anyone add some books to it that fit the criterion?
Mod
Not really a sub-genre I know anything about, and maybe better to discus in a different thread. But maybe consider The Novel of the White Powder, The Great God Pan, short-story: The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar, The God Engines
Dan wrote: "The wandering seemed like an excuse to up the page count while having zombies chase the heroes. I ended up putting the book down ... " It really is long trip they are making in this book. Still interesting enough for me to continue. But I don't think I will pick up a next book in the series.I must admit that since an extra-terrestial element came up the book became more interesting for me. Until the vomit zombie virus arrived it was in fact only human politics.
I'm about 2/3 the way done with this. I'm really disappointed at the poor quality of the writing, especially the "Miller" chapters which are approximately the quality of fan fiction. I believe those chapters were penned by Ty Franck who is also known as the former assistant of George R.R. Martin. The plot does seem to drag along as though each writer took one minor plot detail and puffed it up into a 10 page chapter. Characters are underdeveloped. The plot seems to be a lot of SF cliches blended together. Color me unimpressed. I am not sure if I will continue on with this series (leaning towards "not" right now) but I think I'll watch the first season of the TV show which I hear is better than the books and if I like it I might read the second book.
Im finished and end up in the '3 star group' I'm afraid. The book just fails a little too much in grabbing me, allthough it was appealing enough to finish it and became more interesting in the end. Maybe I would like to continue the series, but I have the same doubts as I had after reading Downbelow Station. Interesting enough to continue but a lot of pages and competing with the idea that there are lots of other undiscovered treasures around.
I just started Leviathan Wakes yesterday. I like space operas, and so far I'm enjoying this one.
I've reached the point where the paths of Miller and Holden's crew have intersected. I wondered about something that happened on the way to this point. It may become apparent later, but - why did Anderson Dawes tell Miller he had, or soon would have, Holden in custody? How did he even know that Holden was still alive? Is this connected in some way to the data cube that Holden gives to Fred Johnson?I understand the complaints in this thread about the Miller chapters, but overall, so far, I am enjoying reading this book. Haven't gotten to the vomiting zombie aliens yet.
I'm at 57%, and so far I'd say it's easy to read but not very impressive. To me, it's distinctly less interesting than space opera classics like Dune, Hyperion, and A Fire Upon the Deep. I'm wondering how others would compare it to those benchmarks or others in the subgenre?Given that this group is about the evolution of Sci Fi, do you feel that this book does anything particularly new? And please don't say vomit zombies.
Buck wrote: "why did Anderson Dawes tell Miller he had, or soon would have, Holden in custody?"
IIRC, by that point Holden was heading to Fred, which means he was in OPA hands. So Dawes was accurate in saying so.
I'm more curious about the relationship between Dawes and Shaddid. It seemed like he was giving the orders, which is weird if she is employed by Earth.
It's pretty hard to discuss one of the most interesting ideas until people have finished the book - the cells.I liked the thread of experimenting on humans & how people react to the scientific knowledge. It's very similar to the Nazi experiments. Horrendous as they were, they're still some of the best data on survival in cold water. People are still arguing over whether or not the data should be used due to how it was obtained.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/t...
Phil wrote: "IIRC, by that point Holden was heading to Fred, which means he was in OPA hands. So Dawes was accurate in saying so."Thanks Phil
Phil wrote: "I'm more curious about the relationship between Dawes and Shaddid. It seemed like he was giving the orders, which is weird if she is employed by Earth.
Good point
Phil wrote: "I'm at 57%, and so far I'd say it's easy to read but not very impressive. To me, it's distinctly less interesting than space opera classics like Dune, Hyperion, and A Fire Upon the Deep. I'm wondering how others would compare it to those benchmarks or others in the subgenre?"I read those three too long ago for them to be fresh in the fog of my memory. I didn't think of Dune as being a space opera. Hyperion is kind of in a class by itself - A Canterbury Tales format with (maybe I'm blurring it with the later books) Catholic overtones. A Fire Upon the Deep didn't make much of an impression - I don't remember it well and gave it only three goodreads stars and a review with criticisms.
A recent book that Leviathan Wakes kind of reminds me of is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, which I also enjoyed.
Phil wrote: "I'm at 57%, and so far I'd say it's easy to read but not very impressive. To me, it's distinctly less interesting than space opera classics like Dune, Hyperion, and A Fire Upon the Deep. I'm wondering how others would compare it to those benchmarks or others in the subgenre?It doesn't compare to Dune. Paul's journey, his quest to avenge his dad, the throne he wants to seize, the messianic theme, the scale and epicness of it all, made it operatic at its core.
Miller's parts in Leviathan are detective noir. Holden is a blue-collar and stays a blue-collar. It ain't a bildungsroman and it isn't a saga. Leviathan, in those regard, is not very operatic.
Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice comes much closer to Dune in terms of space operaness. The scope is there, the quest, the journey, the drama... The filiation is more obvious. What sets appart Ancillary Justice appart from Dune, is how comtemporary it is with colonialism and militarism as the central themes.
Hyperion is something else. I've read it recently and wondered why it won the Hugo and Locus. All I can think of is that, from a literary stand point, Hyperion ment the sci-fi genre evolved and reached another bench mark. Which one I'm not sure. Maybe in style because of the many protagonists and its link to the Cantebury Tales. Unfortunately, it isn't that well written and hasn't aged well. I'm not sure it would win those prizes or be published today (but which "classic" novel would anyway?).
Given that this group is about the evolution of Sci Fi, do you feel that this book does anything particularly new? And please don't say vomit zombies"
I didn't see much of anything else new, but I do see a lineage with pulpy sci-fi stories. In format, style and prose. 10 pages long chapters with one main protagonists and one main event, make me think of serialized stories.
Finished.I see the complaints. The characters don't develop very much until past the 50% mark. The setting and plot are familiar.
*spoiler-ish
Even the bit with the cells feels similar to Nemesis and Solaris.
The thing that raised my appreciation of the book was some of the development of Holden and Miller during the last third. I also really liked the ethical arguments about the use of information and lethal force. As an old Star Trek fan, I'm a sucker for a good space-ethics debate.
Still reading, almost done. I like it. Just like some of the folks commenting above, I do have a few niggles about it - vomiting zombies? really? (view spoiler)
Back to The City and the Stars tonight - I expect to finish Leviathan Wakes tomorrow.
Buck wrote: "I have a few nagging questions, too, which I don't think will be cleared up in the last little bit: How did Dresden and Protogen know the proto-molecule was a weapon? How did they know it had been aimed at earth? by intelligent aliens? two billion years ago? Was it just malicious narcissism that made Dresden think he could control it? "I asked myself the same question and the only answer I could come up with is the effect it has on living things (transforming them in vomit zombies). From this effect they deduce it was a weapon or at least antithetic to life.
*Mid-book spoilersI kept waiting for their assumptions about the protomolecule to be wrong. Like Buck said, how do they know what the intent was? To me, it seems just as likely that it was a spore cast out by space blob.
I mean, the same book has a generation ship being built and aimed randomly at the stars. Is it implausible to think that aliens would do the same thing? Is it necessarily a weapon?
I hope you're enjoying City & The Stars, Buck. I never got around to that one because I've already read the early draft that was published as Against the Fall of Night.
Book spoilersI wondered if it wasn't a terraforming agent since it seems to meld so well to its environment that it incorporates everything into itself. It's obviously very powerful, but the intelligence comes somewhat from the host. Does that mean it can't be controlled its creators? Or is it something that got away from them?
I haven't read beyond this book & have been watching the TV series since, so I don't know. This is just my musings. While I was reading, I was reminded of A Matter for Men where the Earth is attacked by alien lifeforms that aren't intelligent. Eventually we find out that they're (view spoiler) Or it could be something like "The Green Slime" or "The Blob" if anyone else recalls those old SF movies.
I enjoyed this book, but I was unimpressed with the ending. It was just a little too hokey. Miller saves humanity on the basis of his hallucinations, and Holden, after seriously disparaging Miller, goes along and enables it. It was wild and entertaining, but too few people who had little actual power affected too many crazy outcomes. Still, I did enjoy it.
Jim wrote: "Or it could be something like "The Green Slime" or "The Blob" if anyone else recalls those old SF movies."I love "The Green Slime!" Best theme song ever!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwrhO...
SPOILERS FOLLOWThere were some interesting parts:
- The idea of Phoebe being an alien artifact that has the potential to hijack life forms to re-create them in a new form is interesting, like Alien but not necessarily so similar
- the setting of Human settlement of the solar system is interesting - not quite so far-flung as the good ol' "humans have spread throughout the universe and have encountered all kinds of alien life"
But good grief the rest of it is so bad. I finished it and gave it one star. Terrible writing. Two dimensional characters. Trite dialogue, especially the internal dialogue. The Miller chapters are just excruciatingly bad, especially at the end of the book. One plot point per chapter. The plot is unnecessarily convoluted, jumping all over the place. Deus Ex Machina completely unchecked with all the illogical leaps in logic.
Phil wrote: "Jim wrote: "Or it could be something like "The Green Slime" or "The Blob" if anyone else recalls those old SF movies."I love "The Green Slime!" Best theme song ever!
https://www.youtube.com/watc..."
Heh. I never heard the song, didn't see the movie, never even heard of it. But The Blob, starring Steve McQueen, had a good theme song too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMr0c...
Mod
Does that fit into the sub-genre of "Talking Squids in Outer Space"? Or do they not talk?
(Looks great, by the way.)
Ed wrote: "Phil wrote: "I love "The Green Slime!" Best theme song ever..."Does that fit into the sub-genre of "Talking Squids in Outer Space"? Or do they not talk?
(Looks great, by the way.)"
Not familiar with "Talking Squids" as a genre.
No, they do not talk. They are really just mutated boogers. It's part of their charm.
Mod
Ed wrote: ""Talking Squids in Outer Space" is Margaret Atwood's term for dismissing pulp SF."Well, Leviathan Wakes is pulpy as all get out. As Randy points out, it's so improbable that by the end, it feels like a Flash Gordon tribute. That's really a difficulty with this book- to what degree can you just accept it for being what it is? How many holes and two dimensional characters are you willing to overlook in the name of pulpy space opera? For me, the payoff was worth it, but I can see how some would think otherwise.
And Margaret Atwood should watch what she says. If she'd been writing for a sci fi publisher, they would've made her write an actual ending for The Handmaid's Tale.
Mod
The official 🦑 Squidliography 🦑 isn't being updated anymore.
But you can add Binti to my list 🦑 here 🦑.
Phil wrote: "Ed wrote: ""Talking Squids in Outer Space" is Margaret Atwood's term for dismissing pulp SF."Well, Leviathan Wakes is pulpy as all get out. As Randy points out, it's so improbable that by the end, it feels like a Flash Gordon tribute. That's really a difficulty with this book- to what degree can you just accept it for being what it is? How many holes and two dimensional characters are you willing to overlook in the name of pulpy space opera? For me, the payoff was worth it, but I can see how some would think otherwise."
I really liked it & gave it a 4 star review here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
It was a mostly a solid 3 star read IMO, but I like space opera & the characters. They filled the space they needed to without a lot of extraneous detail. It was a well edited book & that's something I appreciate now. Used to be a novel was 120 pages, but now I can rarely find one that isn't twice that length & it's mostly not needed. There are exceptions, but generally I like fewer words that allow me to watch the movie in my mind. This novel did that. Besides, I liked the politics, too.
Writing the above, I'm thinking of Terry Pratchett's take on the LOTR which is incredibly similar to mine a decade later. The characters are also 2D & so is the quest, but the landscape transported us both. We both read it annually for years & then quit. Why? He thinks it's because he can still watch the mind movie so easily at any time & I agree. There was no need to read it again.
In terms of style, there's almost no comparison between 'Leviathan Wakes' & the LOTR, but both authors managed to transport me to their world. They both rose above a solid like from me by adding something extra. In Tolkein's case, it was being one of my first classics. In this case, it was topical. Both the politics & the science happened to coincide with real world events that I was reading about.
Jim wrote: "I really liked it & gave it a 4 star review here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
It was a mostly a solid 3 star read IMO, but I like space opera & the characters. They filled the..."
I concur. There are many books that one either likes or doesn't. Leviathan Wakes is one of those, it seems from the comments here, that some enjoy and some react with disdain.
Buck wrote: "There are many books that one either likes or doesn't. Leviathan Wakes is one of those, it seems from the comments here, that some enjoy and some react with disdain."Good point. I wouldn't look down on anyone for enjoying this book. It just wasn't my cup of tea.
The Evolution of Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Binti (other topics)The Handmaid’s Tale (other topics)
A Matter for Men (other topics)
Against the Fall of Night (other topics)
Nemesis (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Terry Pratchett (other topics)Ann Leckie (other topics)
George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Ann Leckie (other topics)
James S.A. Corey (other topics)
