"Ninefox Gambit" - Full Discussion*Spoilers*

[Allison]

Shh don't tell anyone, but I'm starting the full discussion now instead of tomorrow.

1. What did you think?
2. How did you picture the servitors, formations, -moths and so on?
3. What do you think the real story is with Mikodez and Kujen and Vh? (Please no spoilers from outside works!)

[Chris]

I was disappointed. The first hurdle was the math. I know enough about it to call bullshit pretty quickly. The only thing that would make sense is if everything were happening in a computer, but that hypothesis fell apart as I continued to read. I eventually decided that the math was just a magic system, and it didn't bother me much after that point.

My big gripe was that I kept asking why I should care about the characters and what happens to them. The characters never felt like real people. Their connections and pasts seemed thin. I couldn't see anything about the society that would make people want to defend it. It didn't feel like a living world but rather like the movie Old West towns with cardboard building fronts.

[Anna]

Chris wrote: "The characters never felt like real people. Their connections and pasts seemed thin. I couldn't see anything about the society that would make people want to defend it."

The Kel are brainwashed to a point where they're not 'real people' anymore, at least not in the sense we're used to. They do still have original thoughts, but they're not able to act on them. Other factions are so used to exotic effects, that they rely on the remembrances and the calendar to keep it up. But of course it doesn't make sense, and I find it hard to imagine any sane person reading this not siding with the Liozh (or not even with them).

[Anna]

I love the imagery, especially the ninefox and Cheris' shadow with nine eyes. I'm super fascinated by Kujen, I'd like to see future short fiction featuring him. I love Jedao and can't ever get enough of his antics. I'd like to learn more about the black cradle and how it functions. I'd like a story about the original Liozh heresy. I love the humor, which was even better the second time. I want a Kel uniform, so I don't ever have to get a new outfit.

It seems I'm only able to list things I want more of.

[Trike]

I didn’t care for it either.

Lee basically just said, “Since Space Opera is just Fantasy anyway, let’s just lean into that and go full Fantasy.” For me, though, it just didn’t gel.

Then there’s the issue of the title being a spoiler. The nine-tailed fox is the Chinese version of Coyote, the shapeshifting trickster god, so whenever the plot hinged on people being duped it was clear that’s what was going to happen. When the dead guy essentially took over the living person (Jedi? Jethro? Whatever. I’ve already forgotten their names), I wasn’t surprised either. Part of that was the “exotic gun” — it was such an obvious red herring that I didn’t buy it.

I suspect people like the book because the magic system doesn’t hold your hand, so once you figure it out you feel smart, like you’ve solved a puzzle. I’m not impressed by such... gambits.

[Allison]

The things I liked were the weird, alien world that envisioned the things that divide us here as total non-issues, and that made it very clear how this system continued. Inbred loyalty programs, systems that encourage the behaviors that get people to override their own morality ("it's all a game, so what does it matter?" Or "I don't have to care about the people part, my job is ships.") I liked that this only made sense from within the religion/cult/society and it was constantly in a state of rebellion.

The weapon magic was a fun mystery to chew on until we meet Jedao. Once you realize that none of the math/calendars/magic matter to figuring out the story, you've been given a very cool-looking new thing to grapple with, and that's the sad, dangerous force ghost immortal space assassin you know you can't trust but don't know which thing will be the ultimate lie. In fact, I still don't know. But guessing was fun, and I have a longstanding history of being intrigued by the kicked puppy protagonist that still bares his teeth.

[~ Giulia ~]

Trike wrote: "Then there’s the issue of the title being a spoiler. The nine-tailed fox is the Chinese version of Coyote, the shapeshifting trickster god, so whenever the plot hinged on people being duped it was clear that’s what was going to happen. When the dead guy essentially took over the living person (Jedi? Jethro? Whatever. I’ve already forgotten their names), I wasn’t surprised either. Part of that was the “exotic gun” — it was such an obvious red herring that I didn’t buy it."

I don't think that's much of a spoiler, since we're told that's how the Shuos are the very first time we're introduced to the faction (which is like in chapter 2? I don't remember). So, of course the moment we meet a character named Shuos Jedao we already know what to expect.

Like Allison, part of the fun for me was knowing you can't trust anything they say, and to search for some crumb of truth amidst all the lies, but it's fine if you didn't like how the author handled this.

[thalassic]

I have very mixed feelings about this book. There were a number of things that I thought didn't make sense or left plot holes, and a number of things that I thought were fairly ingenious and well crafted.

It was also profoundly disturbing in some ways. The body count alone is incomprehensible. The incredible lack of value placed on life is staggering. How does a civilization endure when the lives of it's people are literally thrown away, over and over again?

Not only is the entire military composed of what amounts to slaves, but any deviation from the religiously mandated formations, even if a little free thinking wins the battle, is punished by brainwashing, torture, and execution. There were indications that similar punishments were used in civilian populations as well. So how has there been any technological advancement? How have they not been crushed by heretical forces by now? Superior numbers can't account for all of it, especially when it seemed like it began with them fighting some other ... civilization? Planet? Species? Unwillingness to change and adapt has meant the defeat of many powerful armies in history. Also, how do the nirai and shuos even exist within this inflexible structure?

"Show, don't tell" is a wonderful thing as long as the showing allows the reader to gather enough information. Sometimes, a little telling is needed to supplement the showing. I think that's particularly true in this case where the vast majority of the story was told from the perspective of a mentally conditioned soldier. Cheris seemed to have more freedom of thought and will than most soldiers, but she was still bound by her conditioning. In many ways that gave us a very limited view of the culture and events. The glimpses we had of civilians showed a very different view of the culture.

I'm confused by Jedao's situation although maybe I just missed some important bit of information. He's such a brilliant general that they can't kill him because they need him periodically. But, they're willing to go to great lengths and sacrifice hundreds of lives to kill him because they've wanted to get rid of him for a long time but couldn't figure out how to kill him? Even while he was a prisoner for long periods of time in whatever the black cradle is? Why not just leave him in it? Or destroy the cradle while he's trapped inside?

Even with all this, I actually really enjoyed the book. The writing was strong, if frustratingly vague on details, and the characters we did get to know were interesting and compelling, if not remotely heroic or even particularly sympathetic much of the time. I have a fondness for anti-heroes though, so maybe that makes them more appealing to me. One of my favorite parts was at the end when we finally got to learn about Jedao as a person rather than just his military record. I very, very much want to know more about Kujen.

I loved that several story elements drew from Chinese mythology. It's refreshing when something other than European (especially western) mythology is used. I know much less about foxes in Chinese lore than Japanese lore, but they seem to be very similar.

The best parts were the interactions between Cheris and Jedao, and trying to figure out the politics, plots, and games being played almost behind the scenes. My interest would fade during the inadequately explained battles, but then pick right back up for the intrigue. I'm very much looking forward to reading the next one, especially since I won't have to wade through the torrent of undefined terminology before getting to the story. Or at least I'll be prepared for it.

[thalassic]

Ugh. Sorry that was so long. I just got going and didn't realize until I clicked 'post'.

[Allison]

No, I agree with you almost entirely, Liz! Excellent questions and points.

I think the conditioning IS why the government continues. We only get small glimpses, but it seems that going into a service is usually better than not being in a service, and aside from Kel and Shuos, everyone else gets to pretend they're not neck-deep in blood. The Kel cadets, first thing they get is boundless loyalty. And the Shuos think they'll just be able to do intelligence work...until they're backed into a corner and compelled to "wet work." That means the Kel feel like they alone in the (galaxy? system?) are willing to sacrifice for the greater good, which of course is a very romantic, yet ultimately awful idea.

I think we see this in how strict the conditioning is but how ready they all are to fall on their swords. We see it in the constant uprising and the factions subtly stabbing each other in the back.

Which is also why I think there was that very expensive hit on Jedao. Kujen and Mikodez are up to something and no one is trusting anyone enough to get anything accomplished. I suspect there are games afoot!

[Trike]

Liz wrote: "Ugh. Sorry that was so long. I just got going and didn't realize until I clicked 'post'."

Size doesn’t matter. It’s the content that’s king.

[Lowell]

So, I finally get to weigh in here on a bunch of stuff. I've been waiting for a while -

A lot of folks are disparaging the idea behind the calendar as being "just another magic system." I can see why people feel like that's true, because it's so far outside of the standards of western science fiction that it feels alien. The basis of Lee's design on this seems to be that the way that people organize and track time allows them to cause "exotic" effects that break the laws of physics, such as FTL, or the strange selection of weapons the Kel use.

The idea of consensual reality isn't new, and it certainly has a place in science fiction - so it's probably not as big a deal as folks are making it out to be. What I find most interesting about this application of consensual reality is that it's non-consensual. the reality is forced upon the area through "remembrances" that involve literal torture and observation of that torture. This allows formations - aka literal geometrical movements - to alter the space around them, providing a lot of interesting possible effects. The entire system is self-reinforcing - the Hexarchate chooses the calendar for the positive effects, and uses those to sell itself, gaining enough power that it stays in power and now has enough power to dominate the heretical factions. I think that there are some interesting parallels to the rise of communism in poor countries that can be examined through this lens. It may explain a good deal of the reasoning behind the feeling that, in the Hexarchate, life is cheap.

------

@ Allison - One of the things that's missing in this book that is present later is a better "person on the ground" kind of understanding of day-to-day life in the Hexarchate. It's still not as deep as I would like to see it, but Raven Stratagem adds some much needed depth. It also goes a LOT deeper into the factions - a lot of what happened in Ninefox Gambit gets clearer after you start to understand the factions better.

------

@ Liz - Jedao's situation is influenced by a lot of the politics present in the next book. Without spoilers, I can't go into too much more - but Ninefox Gambit is definitely only part of the story. Additionally, Raven Stratagem is a LOT more accessible than the first book - some find it overly standard, instead. I enjoyed it, though. I will say that a lot of the questions you ask become clearer with the second book.

-------

I overall enjoyed Ninefox Gambit in the end. I thought Raven Stratagem really made the whole thing a bit deeper, and I'm really looking forward to Revenant Gun later this year.

[Anna]

Allison wrote: "aside from Kel and Shuos, everyone else gets to pretend they're not neck-deep in blood"

And Vidona, so that's half of the current factions.

It's too early in the morning and I'm half asleep, so I'll just quote from the faction sheet:

The Vidona enforce Doctrine in the hexarchate and punish or execute heretics on remembrance days. A few are doctors responsible for keeping heretics alive for torture. The Vidona are also responsible for education up to the age of seventeen. Some of them are true believers who are determined to maintain the system at any cost, while others enjoy being feared by the general populace.

Vidona are selected for inflexible loyalty and strong stomachs. Even the ones who do not go on to become torturers or enforcers are required to train in the blood arts; in an emergency, any Vidona may be called on to render a remembrance.

[thalassic]

Lowell wrote: "So, I finally get to weigh in here on a bunch of stuff. I've been waiting for a while -

A lot of folks are disparaging the idea behind the calendar as being "just another magic system." I can see..."

Lowell, that's a fantastic explanation for the calendrical system and formations. Thanks for that! It didn't bother me that it was some kind of magic, but I think you're right that it was just too unfamiliar to feel comfortable.

Thanks for the heads up about Raven Stratagem too. I had already added it to my list, but knowing that it answers some of the questions that Ninefox Gambit raised makes me want to read it even more.

[Chris]

The author has referred to Ninefox Gambit as having a magic system. He said he was "too lazy to calculate orbital mechanics and stuff.... I wanted a magic system that allowed me to create a form of 'terrain' in space, where the terrain was the laws of magic itself."

I don't think it's disparaging to say that a book has a magic system. I'm fine with science fantasy. However, science fantasy shouldn't go into so much detail to convince us that its system is true. It's hand waving. Just get on with the story.

[Christopher]

I loved this one, can't even totally explain why, but I couldn't put it down. It makes me think of this quote by George Saunders:

“Now I began to understand art as a kind of black box the reader enters. He enters in one state of mind and exits in another. The writer gets no points just because what's inside the box bears some linear resemblance to "real life" -- he can put whatever he wants in there. What's important is that something undeniable and nontrivial happens to the reader between entry and exit.”

Seems like the calendrical aspect of it either worked or was a turn off to readers, for me, I couldn't always picture what was happening exactly with regards to it, but I enjoyed thinking about it and the rest of the book held up well enough for me.

Some more thoughts (bearing in mind I read this about 9 months ago):

- I was reminded a bit of Catch-22 in some of the descriptions of the military/counter actions at the fortress. War can be both ludicrous and incredibly destructive simultaneously.

- The epistolary messages from the heretic at the fortress with the calendrical heresy sign-off made me laugh and I enjoyed those interludes.

- One thing I thought about regarding Kel formations was the concept (which is likely urban myth) that if everyone on the planet earth stomped their feet in unison we could cause some sort of catastrophic earthquake. Along that line of thinking, if military units could coordinate so perfectly perhaps with some magic (or technology that resembles it) tossed in, they could achieve results not possible alone. It's all make believe, but I liked thinking about it.

- I felt like the ending was setting up for a rebellion by the servitors if I recall correctly, will be interesting to see if that comes back later in the series.

- Jedao reminded me a bit of Lews Therin from The Eye of the World. Looking forward to learning more about him although I'm not sure murdering *millions* can ever be redeemed (although maybe we'll learn it wasn't his fault???)

Bought Raven Stratagem on sale and just started it a few days ago, can't wait to see how it goes!

[Allison]

Anna wrote: "Allison wrote: "aside from Kel and Shuos, everyone else gets to pretend they're not neck-deep in blood"

And Vidona, so that's half of the current factions.

It's too early in the morning and I'm h..."

I guess them, too. I counted them more as priests. Not that they weren't also murderers, but that their purview wasn't about ending the hereticals so much as keeping up the calendar.

I definitely didn't mean magic pejoratively, Lowell! I love magic. I love space magic, too. I love space magic masquerading as a computation very much. I can see it being in that weird middle where it expected us to believe it was science but was a bit wishy-washy on that. It reminded me a lot of the movie Equlibrium, where somehow standing almost perfectly still and just moving your arms a lot was the best way to shoot a room of people without getting shot. Absolutely impractical in real life, but super cool to think about, and still a science-based dystopia that was cool to watch fall down.

I also had heard that about Raven Stratagem! I'm interested to get more background. It also looks like a fairly short read, so maybe I'll use it towards a challenge.

I really like that quote, Christopher! And agree about the "memos" Vh sent. Hilarious! I wanna know their game. Someone's doing something sneaky, and I'd like to find out who and what.

[Lowell]

Christopher wrote: "- The epistolary messages from the heretic at the fortress with the calendrical heresy sign-off made me laugh and I enjoyed those interludes."

Those were so much fun. I especially loved the signoff of "Yours in Calendrical Heresy."

Christopher wrote: "Jedao reminded me a bit of Lews Therin from The Eye of the World. Looking forward to learning more about him although I'm not sure murdering *millions* can ever be redeemed (although maybe we'll learn it wasn't his fault???)"

I felt it was really clear at the end of Ninefox Gambit that Jedao is very invested in bringing the whole Hexarchate down, based on his own moral awakening. He realized that this is a system where even the heretics though that using children as shields was a good idea, and that it all needs to come down.

--------------

Allison wrote: "I guess them, too. I counted them more as priests. Not that they weren't also murderers, but that their purview wasn't about ending the hereticals so much as keeping up the calendar."

The inquisition were priests too. ;)
On that note, it's interesting to me that the Calendar seems to have taken the overall place of religion, in this society too.

-------

Yeah, maybe I overreacted. I'm fairly used to people who whine about science fiction that is anything other than rock-hard (no FTL, no teleportation, etc...), and while it's a valid viewpoint, 95% of my interactions with people who espouse it are highly negative.

[Jill]

This definitely looks like a 'love it' or 'hate it' kind of book.

I think I was only understanding every third word until someone pointed out to me to think of the whole system as the Matrix and all the calculations (magic?) (math?) as coding to change the world; the rot was some sort of computer virus. I am pretty sure that is the only thing that got me through this one.

[Travis]

Lowell wrote: "Christopher wrote: "- The epistolary messages from the heretic at the fortress with the calendrical heresy sign-off made me laugh and I enjoyed those interludes."

Those were so much fun. I especia..."

Thirding this. The letters were so much fun! They made me want way more of the backstory for the heresy.

[Tomislav]

The only thing that would make sense is if everything were happening in a computer, but that hypothesis fell apart as I continued to read.

Same here. As a reader of hard-sf, I was stressing out to understand the nature of the world Lee has created here, until I hit on the strategy of considering it to be a synthetic, possibly cybernetic, setting with well-developed sensory analogs and a long-evolved culture. However, since the setting is meant to be physically true, I have to categorize this as science fantasy, as some of the happenings are quite fantastic – particularly the word-candy weapons systems, the abrupt instantiation and termination of characters, and the mind combinations and transferences. It was a lovely complexity, but not what I was reading for initially.

[Allison]

Lowell wrote: "The inquisition were priests too. ;)
On that note, it's interesting to me that the Calendar seems to have taken the overall place of religion, in this society too. "

haha! True. But I don't know, I still got the feeling that they were different. Shuos assassins, Kel for your brute force, Vidona follow only the calendar. I shouldn't discount them though I guess :)

Jill and Tomislav, agreed. I had trouble with rating, because it actually was an awful military scifi book. It didn't make sense logistically, it wasn't hard science at all. I made the assumption that they were all essentially part android and part wizard and left it at that. Then it was a ton of fun. But then the premise of a battle to retake a fortress makes it a little unappealing to people looking for a space opera/space fantasy. It worked for me, but it's definitely in a sort of "niche" category.

[M.L.]

I liked it right off. The voice is important and I think he tells a great story.
The point of view where all rebellion, anything that deviates from the approved, is called 'calendrical rot' is brilliant. Celebrating days of remembrance with torture is something like The Hunger Games but different.
Jedao reminded me somewhat of Breq, distant and personal at the same time, a product of the society but one they never counted on producing.
It's similar, not necessarily in content but in world-building, world-already-built, the sense of adventure, to Foundation and the Ancillary series.
I loved the idea of formation instinct (hive mind). Interestingly Cheris violated it at the start by changing the programming, or trying to.
The servitors are slaves, as are the Kel. I hoped the servitors would say no when asked to serve, but they didn't. Jedao said that memory of their forebears has been obliterated. They willingly serve and die but I would love to see them turn on the hexarchs.
I'll be reading the next one!

[Lee]

One of the reasons I love reading groups is that I read books that in no way would I have found otherwise and this is clearly one of those gems. On the face of it, it's just another generic space opera/military sci-fi and to be honest the plot is pretty straight forward, most of the cast pretty disposable and the main characters a bit flat.

Yet, it's the world building underpinning the whole book and all the different concepts that I working almost in the background that bring it to life and make this a world that I'm thirsty to find out more for. It's one of those rare occasions when I go out and google more behind the plot and seeing more of the factions, the weapons and exotics, formations and reality bending calenders that leaves me desperately wanting to see more.

But then again, should that have been in the book rather than relying on the reader to have to go out and find it? Would the book have been better to explore these concepts a bit more or does it work better because it's just sitting under the surface of the wider plot?

Also, there was a lack of description for me for all these weird and wonderful alien devices. I want to be able to visualise these moths and crazy weapons and the different vivid dress codes and cultures of the factions. Instead I'm just left with words and my own imagination to fill in the gaps, which did suck me out of the book a few times.

Overall, a great read to which I'll be picking up the sequel and hoping for even more!

[Trike]

Lee wrote: "But then again, should that have been in the book rather than relying on the reader to have to go out and find it? "

I think what is in the book is fine, since it’s complete and understandable. Going out and finding more is just a bonus.

I remember when I saw the movie Contact (which is still *the* modern standard for technical brilliance in cinema) and I had questions. Chief among them was “Why didn’t they run the experiment twice?” That’s Science 101, after all. I was told that they explained the machine wouldn’t work twice, per the book. That’s unacceptable; a story needs to stand on its own, and you shouldn’t have to go outside of it for completeness.

Ninefox Gambit includes everything you need to know. That wasn’t enough for me to like it, but it definitely wasn’t a fault.

For a story that really delves into the permutations of its weird universe system called Zones of Thought as well as how alien hive minds work — and explores all the logical outcomes of both, including going into the alien minds to see how they think, try Vernor Vinge’s A Fire Upon the Deep.

It offers the same sort of intellectual reward as Ninefox, in that it doesn’t hold your hand and allows you to catch up as you puzzle it out for yourself. For my money, a much better book overall, with well-rounded characters which have unique voices. Also plenty of description to help you visualize what’s going on.

[Allison]

Trike wrote: "Lee wrote: "But then again, should that have been in the book rather than relying on the reader to have to go out and find it? "

I think what is in the book is fine, since it’s complete and unders..."

Oh, that's good to hear. I have that one on my Owned Book List and I have been hesitant about it.

[Lee]

Trike wrote: "Lee wrote: "But then again, should that have been in the book rather than relying on the reader to have to go out and find it? "

I think what is in the book is fine, since it’s compl..."

A Fire Upon the Deep has been sitting on my to read list a while and will eventually get round to it. You may have helped bump it up a few places though.

I think a lot is left un-said and unexplained. The plot works without it just fine, a lot left to your imagination and a bit of forward thinking takes you the rest of the way though. I like that in a book, a refusal to hold your hand or find a plot device that lets the author explain things that would never occur in reality. Obviously works both ways though...

[Tad]

Chris wrote: "I was disappointed. The first hurdle was the math. I know enough about it to call bullshit pretty quickly. The only thing that would make sense is if everything were happening in a computer, but th..."

I agree with this sentiment. Math as magic was the only way for me to approach it and I didn't find that aspect sufficiently interesting to create any enjoyment. Likewise the characters were too thin for me to really care about them. Interestingly, I found the servitors the most appealing characters. I'm honestly puzzled by some of the accolades this book has received. It struck me as a little "the emperor has no clothes".

I have no problem if people enjoyed it as tastes vary. But in terms of fresh ways of looking at things or groundbreaking approaches, give me Ann Leckie.

[Jehona]

I think the worst problem any math and physics lover has with this book is that reality isn't fixed. Basically, your imagination determines reality, or rather the collective imagination of a group of people. It reminded me of Deepak Chopra. And, if reality isn't fixed, then neither math nor physics have any meaning. You cannot convert a fantasy book into a sci-fi by simply replacing the word "incantation" with "equation".

[Bonnie]

Hard to understand, frustrating to read when I understand so little. Is this world like the Matrix? Computer simulations? Trans-humans? But people seemed to be physical beings. One of the few concrete examples of the calendrical system was that people were allowed to think about the weeks as existed on their homeworld: 7, 8, 10 days, whatever. I couldn’t get from there to the mathematical equations, composites, “exotic effects”, torture and heresy.

Last time I found a book so frustrating: Lady of Mazes by Karl Schroeder. Trans or post-humans. I never really understood the manifold shared realities, or how the physical bodies integrated with virtual realities, or how people were communicating on the Archipelago with the "Votes" and “Government” incarnations.

The Servitors reminded me of the DRDs on Moya in Farscape. They are machines, right, because Cheris repaired something on one? Or could they be slaves or creatures who've been genetically altered somehow? My favorite parts were the servitors, and chapter 20 with the Shuos Assassin targeting Heretic Vahenz by delivering pastries -- probably because I understood it.

Things I hoped to find out but did not:
* Why Cheris was a "disgrace" as stated in book blurbs... She seemed to have a normal career. Maybe just marketing?
* anything about the "game" and Cheris being a Web Piece. Was the whole story a game? Was the fight against the heretics at the Fortress of Scattered Needles a game, like Ender’s Game? Was the whole Heretic problem cooked up by some of the Hexarchs as some long-game machinations that was a game, like in Player of Games? or was the game simply to choose between candidates to lead the attack and I'm way overthinking it.
* How the Hexarchs (Shuos Mikadez and Nirai Kujen) knew Cheris would think of resurrecting General Jedao, or did they manipulate her into thinking of him (but how)?? Did they care which of the seven candidates suggested Jedao as the weapon, as long as one of them did?
* What the Servitors were up to, particularly Servitors 124816 and 777777 -- in chapter 15 they seemed to be on special missions, or spies, or something.

I liked lots of things about it, but I wish I grasped the concepts of this world, and then I would like reading about it better. Still deciding on whether to read the sequels.

[Allison]

If it helps you, most of your questions are addressed throughout the series, and the next two books are told in much more standard "book" fashion--not nearly as much guesswork involved :)

[Anna]

Bonnie wrote: "Servitors 124816 and 777777"

7777777 would want me to correct this! After all, it has a rebellious streak, and chose seven sevens for a reason! :D

[Alondra]

Bonnie wrote: "Hard to understand, frustrating to read when I understand so little. Is this world like the Matrix? Computer simulations? Trans-humans? But people seemed to be physical beings. One of the few concr..."

Glad I am not the only one giving this book the side-eye. I have it on hold until I can figure out if I want to read it, toss it in a bonfire or use it as a door-stop. o_O

[Bonnie]

Anna wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "Servitors 124816 and 777777"

7777777 would want me to correct this! After all, it has a rebellious streak, and chose seven sevens for a reason! :D"

Nice catch!!

And now I understand the Seven Kingdoms /Heptarchtate reading challenge.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I loved this so much. Yeah it was crazy and I didn’t really understand the calendar or formations much more than anyone else, but I loved the humor, macabre though it often was, I loved the little vignettes of the soldiers on the field, everything about it was perfect for me.

Lowell your explanation of the calendar system actually helps understand the culture a lot! I wasn’t really clear on the rememberances until I read what you wrote and it makes a lot of sense.

About 1/2 through as all the pieces were coming together I realized I was reading the story from the point of view of the “bad guys” so to speak, and Jedao the traitor was someone fighting for the good. I thought it was a clever way to tell the story, since Cheris doesn’t know enough to be horrified at the things the Hexarchate does.

I also liked the way the details kept unfolding. I can see how it would feel forced to others, but I kept thinking how formation instinct must have been an actual instinct soldiers had to keep their formations so they were protecting themselves. Then it slips: “injecting formation instinct” and it changed the whole perspective.

I know that’s not adding a whole lot, but I wanted to add it anyway. This was great- I’m sorry I waited so long to read it.

[Anna]

Welcome to the fan club Sarah! 😊

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Thanks Anna! I’m sure I’ll be chiming in on the other books soon enough.

[Ariana]

Sarah wrote: "I loved this so much. Yeah it was crazy and I didn’t really understand the calendar or formations much more than anyone else, but I loved the humor, macabre though it often was, I loved the little ..."

Yay! Glad you liked it. Reading this makes me want to drop everything and do another reread.

[Kirsten]

I read this a while back, and I loved the action/adventure & space opera feel of this. The magic system, math, physics seemed to fly above my head, but the action and adventure was so well done I didn't really care.

[Anthony]

Necroposting! I’m so glad I finally read this. I totally get why so many folks around these parts love it. I loved it too, although what keeps it from being a full 5-star read for me is that — unlike in the best work of CJ Cherryh — the emotional weight of Lee’s themes never quite cut to the core in the way that I think they could have.

Still, there’s so so so much about this that’s supremely entertaining, exciting, fun, stirring, and thought-provoking. I look forward to completing the trilogy.

[Allison]

hooray! glad it worked for you!

[Anthony]

Same!

[Kaia]

I read this for the group re-reads, and I liked it very much overall. I enjoy books that are kind of a puzzle that gets slowly revealed as you go, though I must admit that there are some aspects that I still don’t really understand (but that didn’t interfere with my enjoyment).

One of my favorite things - the servitors! I wish we had more side parts with them. I was intrigued by the ones at the beginning who were concerned with Cheris’s welfare, and the others who were plotting using their secret meeting place. Cheris’s relationship with them overall was interesting to me, and I hope it gets explored more in future books in the series. I also liked how they watch dramas with Cheris; it reminded me a bit of Murderbot.

I also liked the interactions between Cheris and Jedao, and trying to figure out what was really going on with Jedao. The other aspect I liked was the small parts where we see the story from others’ points of view: the letters, the soldier stories, the servitors.

I got bogged down in the battle descriptions, especially when it was just Cheris and the other officers making decisions and analyzing the results.

After reading this discussion, I definitely want to go on to read the remaining books in the series.

[Kaladin]

I've always been bad at math but Jedao and Cheris make it sound interesting. :D

[Kaia]

Kaladin wrote: "I've always been bad at math but Jedao and Cheris make it sound interesting. :D"

I agree, Kaladin!

Reading through the earlier posts and peoples' frustration about the math and physics not making sense was interesting - this was not a problem for me, as even real math and physics kind of feel like magic to me after they go beyond a certain point. I do enjoy when characters make them sound interesting, though. (And I also appreciate picking up some real math and science knowledge in my SF, too, when it's written in a way that makes sense to me.)

[Allison]

I know about as much about fractals (that's like trees and stuff) as I do about how wizards in LOTR do their magic (they're not humans or elves!) so I kind of got to the point that I was like "okay, ritual spell components, got it" and just enjoyed that instead of like willpower or some other nebulous thing, this one was concrete and knowable the same way anything in economics is knowable (which is to say we just all believe that stocks should be in markets and we go there). So that worked for me. I liked the mash up of K-drama characters in an anime world and the bright colors it painted in my head talking about bannering voidmoths and everyone's uniforms and the different exotics.

I just re-read it for the first time and wow does a lot more make sense having finished the series, too!

[Joelle.P.S]

Allison wrote: "...I just re-read it for the first time and wow does a lot more make sense having finished the series, too!"

Oh that's really interesting to hear! I've read book #2 & am ready for #3, so still mid-journey :-D

[Kaladin]

Kaia wrote: "Kaladin wrote: "I've always been bad at math but Jedao and Cheris make it sound interesting. :D"

I agree, Kaladin!

Reading through the earlier posts and peoples' frustration about the math and p..."

Me too, Kaia. Some authors have a way with weaving information into stories without making it look like a school lesson. Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet series helped me to understand Navy tactics. Something I had a harder time grasping before. Now it just makes more sense. It is nice if a book leaves you feeling smarter than before. 😁

[Hillary]

I finished this last night. i already read it once before in 2019. because i had to do so much less work this time to understand the workings of the world I was much able to better appreciate the sheer creativity of the universe and how all the different class systems connect and interact. I think i understood the siege of the fortress of scattered needles and how everything went down better this time, too.

I completely forgot about the Hafn and the ending where whatever her name is turns out to be an independent agent and tries to kill Cheris and how she is saved by the servitors. I hope the ending with Cheris/Jedao escaping with the two servitors means that they might stick around for a while and that we might get to know those two servitors as specific individuals.

I still have some questions I'm not sure about. Is Jedao the person now actually dead? Is it just his memories and not him himself that have merged with Cheris? I'm not sure why but for some reason I want it to be Jedao the person that's there creating this new individual with Cheris rather than just his memories. Is Cheris the person now gone as well? I'm not sure, but I imagine that these questions will (hopefully) be answered in the next book.

While I read Ninefox Gambit before I have yet to read the other 2 in the series since I needed to reread this one to remember how this universe actually works before I continued on. I think I'll read Raven's stratagem in October, the last book in November, and then the collected short stories in December so I can mark this series as completed-- if anyone wants to join me they are more than welcome :)

[CBRetriever]

I made it 10% in and in the first chapter I keep waiting for it to pull back to reality and find out that the "characters" were playing some kind of interactive video game.

Dead, dead and more dead people such that the opening reminded me of Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan with all the carnage but at least we knew the back story behind that military action.

I'm still wondering if I'm going to finish this one (maybe in small pieces?)