Outlander Series discussion
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Least Favorite Character?
Well Bonnet was working with that guard so he was going to get let out, but it would definitely have probably stopped alot of things that happened, like him thinking Jemmy was his and causing all that strife.I felt sorry for Jamie at that point too. There were times I hated Bonnet, like when he raped Bree, or worse when he showed her off like a slave in ABOSAA. But there were times when I felt sorry for him too, like when he told her about his nightmares. But I agree, I thought it was horrible how he repayed Jamie's kindness. Jamie is definitely my number 1.
Wendy wrote: "Whatever, lmao! She better end it on a good note!I loved the idea that someone in some thread had that Claire would wake up in 1945 with Frank and realize the whole thing was a dream. It's co..."
I usually don't post anything, just read everybody's posts but this one really got me upset. This would be horrible way to end series, Claire wake up in 1945 with Frank. No Jaime, character that everybody loves non existent, her daughter and grandkids non existent etc..... Also DG has other books (spinoffs) of Outlander, and to my understanding she will write other books with characters from Outlander, this would destroy that idea simply because nobody writes books based on characters from somebody's dream. I know that books are fiction, but when I read they are real.... If they were a dream they wouldn't be real to me any more, there wouldn't be point of reading about them any more.
I love how some of these discussions can go on and on!I have a thought on the ending:
We flash back to Jamie’s' Ghost in Inverness. He whispers, "come back to me". Claire travels through the stones as before, emerges in 1743 and the whole story starts all over again! ;0)
Give me a break, times have changed, but since cave man history, if somebody tried to kill your wife and it is screwing around and lying to get your whatever is the currency of the times, this person does not deserve pity, or love or concernGood point! I think you know what side of this discussion I am on. Seems there are endless ways for both sides to debate the Jamie/Laoghaire saga!
Wendy wrote: "Kate wrote: "I personally am glad that Diana Gabaldon writes her characters with so many facets. The ones you think are evil, Bonnet, Laoghaire, Jack Randall, also have decent humane qualities inte..."Another good point Kate! There were times I really wanted to like Bonnet, felt sympathy for him.( Plus he sounded hot!) But his bad behavior outweighed the good and I had to write him off as a bad guy. As For BJR, other than marrying Mary out of love and respect for Alex, I don't think he had any redeeming qualities.
I actually sort of liked BJR's first interaction with Claire, when she first came through the stones. It felt very romance-novelly to me, the way he sort of forced a kiss on her, and the way she rebuked him.Well of course, we all know how that turned out!
I was reading the posts and felt the same as other readers in the beginning of Outlander. First I thought that Claire was going to have something with BJR, then I was so sure the love affair would involve Dougal. I was very surprised when Jamie was the chosen one.I really don't like Jenny. I understand that she wanted to have Jamie married to Laoghaire, because at that point in time nobody knew where Claire was.
But when Claire came back after 20 years, she should have supported Jamie and Claire's marriage (it was the first one after all). She knew that Laoghaire and Jamie were together for mere 2 years and it was an unhappy miserable empty relationship.
I actually really like Jenny! She is a strong proud female character who is stubborn and proud; I think I have a weakness for characters with her characteristics. I sort of with Bree had been able to spend more time with her, because I believe Bree could learn a thing or two from her aunt. But then again, I guess that could still happen.I loved the way that Jenny did not allow Jamie to get away with his cocky stubborn attitude over what happened with BJR and what led to Jamie being taken away from Lallybroch. Also, how she wouldn’t allow Jamie to act slighted that she did not seek his permission to marry Ian. I thought it was HILARIOUS when she grabbed him by the ballocks, just to make him listen! Gosh, I loved that scene!
Also, she saved Jamie’s life after Culloden, and she’ll always have my respect for that.
I can understand the way Jenny acted in Echo, and I know she truly feels guilty for pairing Laoghaire and Jamie together. But I was GLAD she called Laoghaire in because it was wrong of Jamie to not tell Claire about that marriage. She knew her brother was being stubborn about that fact of his life, and took control of the situation. It was very very in character for her to have done it, IMHO.
And I know WHY Jamie did not tell Claire about the marriage, but I was still aggravated that he didn’t give her an honest chance to make up her mind about it!
And maybe I have a sick sick mind, but I absolutely love the dramatic scene between Claire, Jamie & Laoghaire, when Laoghaire storms in on Claire and Jamie in a compromising position. Whenever I read it, it always gets my heart pounding, and I still always get excited and nervous for the outcome. (I guess I have Jenny to thank for that?)
Jenny is a woman who takes control of a situation and it broke my heart in Echo with the events that happened, forcing her to rely on others for a change.
And that’s my two cents!
But she doesn’t convince Claire to leave, Claire decided that on her own from pretty much the moment she found out Jamie was married. Later on, when Jamie went off into the woods, Claire went up to Jenny, said she was leaving, Jenny said she thought that was best and made sure Claire had plenty of food for her journey.I can understand why Jenny wanted to keep Jamie at Lallybroch. Claire once said that if anyone loved Jamie more than her, it was Jenny. She wanted her brother near her, and in such tumultuous times with a brother who seems to have used 7 of his 9 lives, I think I might want the same thing.
For your spoiler alert, I agree with you. Man, that whole situation was so sad :(
Moni wrote: I don’t know why but I like Tom Christie too??? Not that I want him with Claire??I like him, too. He's such a complex character, and has exhibited an ability to change and grow. All he wants is love, and he's just not going to get it with Claire. Poor man.
I am going to disagree with you. Jenny did convince Claire to leave.First wrong thing was when she threw water on them. Jamie and Claire would have solved the problem right there. They needed that explosion of feelings, and Jenny interrupted what was just some very hot discussion and would probably have turned out into another sizzling love scene. Jenny packed Claire's stuff, gave her food and sent her away. She might have saved her brother before, but this time she almost killed him.
It was Jenny's fault that Laoghaire was at the house, and then she shot Jamie, and Jenny didn't want call Claire back, and Claire was the only one that could save Jamie.
Moni wrote: "I hope Tom Christie will be in the new book! I have a sneaking suspicion that he will most differently. Hey maybe he will fall in love with Jenny??? "Oh God! I don’t even know what to think about that, haha! But it would be kind of perfect, other than the fact that Jenny is a Papist. XD
Technically speaking, so is Claire... I don't think that will happen though. I don't want Jenny to just move on. Ian's death is still to fresh and sad.
Tom Christie was (and probably still is) slightly disturbed over Claire being a Papist, but I think his hangup with her is the fact that she may or may not be a witch.I still think Claire is agnostic, and just follows along with the motions with Jamie because she doesn’t want to stir up trouble. Jenny is actually a practicing Papist, which Tom Christie has shown obvious dislike towards on Jamie’s account, on several occasions. Not to mention that the woman is Jamie’s sister!
I agree with you that Claire is agnostic, and that Tom Christie isn't as upset about that as about the other. I just thought I would mention it, since people believe she is Catholic.By the way, I like Jenny too.
Just like any of them she has her flaws and one of those is that she can be too controling. Everything she does comes from a place of love, though.
When she hooked up Loaghaire and Jamie it was because she didn't want him to be alone. When she sent Claire away it was because she was not only afraid that she would take Jamie away, but also she didn't trust Claire to stay with him and take care of him. In her mind Claire proved that when the going gets tough she got going. And when she lashed out at Claire over Ian she was suffering and grieving from watching the love of her life die. Can you imagine how Claire would act if that was Jamie puking blood and wasting away all over?
Jenny is a loving sister and dedicated mother. She kept that whole family alive and was the backbone of the Lallybroch Frasers. She not only saved Jamie's leg, she's the one who saved Ian when he lost his. How about when she helped Claire track Jamie when he was caught by the soldiers?
I find Jenny incredibly admirable.
I don't undestand why Jenny always blamed Claire for Jamie repeatedly leaving Lallybroch. It being Claires fault that Jamie leaves is not entirely true. Jamie was sent away to live with Dougal as a young teen,cause that was what families did at that time. Then he was arrested by the English for defending Jenny. He then joined the French Army! All this before Claires arrival. He also willingly leaves to live in Edinburgh after his failed marriage to you know who. So MO is that Jenny wrongfully blames Claire for Jamie always leaving and being away. I think there was enough circumstances to always draw Jamie away from Lallybroch, whether or not Claire was in the picture.I also agree that Jenny was more than happy to send Claire off after her mysterious return! It was,"here is some food, happy trails and good riddance."
It's not a founded fear, but she says it. When she talks to Claire about what happened with Loaghaire she admits that she finally had Jamie home and she wanted to find a way to keep him there. That she knew that with Claire back they would find themselves leaving again.
Kate wrote: "Moni wrote: "I hope Tom Christie will be in the new book! I have a sneaking suspicion that he will most differently. Hey maybe he will fall in love with Jenny??? "Honestly, I think DG will wind up killing him off somehow. He'd made a point of telling Claire that he'd only ever loved 3 women in his life, his first wife, his daughter, and Claire. He had a second wife (we never learned her name). I think it would be out of character for him to just turn around and fall in love with Jamie's sister. My guess is that he'll probably sacrifice himself to save Claire at one point, since she can't keep herself out of trouble.
On another note, one minor character I'd love for them to bring back is the naturalist from the 3rd book - Dr. Stern. He was such a big part of the second half of Voyager and then we never heard what happened to him...
I really liked him too. I hope he pops back in.I also wouldn't mind finding out what happened to Mr Willoby.
Wendy, your post showed up after I had posted mine and I just read it. That is a good summation of Jenny's character. And even though I got angry at her for doubting Jamie, blaming him for certain events and sometimes harboring resentment towards him for some of their circumstances, you have reminded me of her admirable stature.Kate, I had forgotten about Dr. Stern. I liked him too. But he may just turn out to be another one of the many passing acquaintances that we meet in this crazy, endearing story.
Ladyhawk, I get aggitated with her too. Like when she went so long without writing Jamie after Ian went with the Mohawk. I just always keep in mind that even the people I love the most (my husband, haha) cause me no end of aggitation.One of the images of Jenny that touched me the most was when Jamie talked about how his mother died and he came down to find that Jenny had put on an apron and was standing at a stool cooking. He said she was so little and so young... that sealed Jenny in my mind. She's strong, at times to forthright.
my husband, haha) cause me no end of aggitationAint that the truth!!
Wendy, how many times have you read this series? You keep reminding me of scenes I have forgotten. And although I remember a lot, there is just sooo much detail, that it's pleasant to be reminded of sweet scenes I'd forgotten!
As for the whereabouts of Mr Willoby, no thanks! That little man gave me the creeps!
He did me too, until he told his story. Then I actually felt a little bad for him. It was like Lenny who wanted to be Mohammed so he could take back his name. I loved how he said that he was Yi Tien Cho and he lived in a land where everything he was was despised. I actually felt for the weird little heathen.(We love you too Moni!)
Wendy wrote: "I agree with you that Claire is agnostic, and that Tom Christie isn't as upset about that as about the other. I just thought I would mention it, since people believe she is Catholic.By the way..."
Well said Wendy, you totally gave me goosebumps! ^_^
I am not sure on which book (I'm at Fiery Cross), but I remember Claire definitely arriving at the conclusion that Raymond was a time traveler too. I think they felt an strong affinity because both of them were healers. They were doctors with a high degree of spirituality.In our present time, there are some rare physicians that use touch to heal their patients. Actually, they are trying to teach medical students how just a touch of your hand on somebody's shoulder has great effect.
Of course, Claire's vocation was medicine, and she took every opportunity to learn new ways to improve her talents, be it with north american indians, or Raymond, or the Sister in l'Opital des Anges in France (forgot her name). Claire was an amazing doctor, and I wish we could find somebody like her in our current Health Care System!
Thank you, I should know, that name goes really well with her personality. That was one cool sister.
Spoiler*** I enjoyed the scene where Claire was visiting Faiths grave and ponders on the name Mother Hildegarde gave her sweet lost babe. " Mother Hildegarde has a very odd sense of humor." Oh those little moments!
Latinlandish wrote: "I am not sure on which book (I'm at Fiery Cross), but I remember Claire definitely arriving at the conclusion that Raymond was a time traveler too. I think they felt an strong affinity because both..."SPOILER
So would I (someone like her in our HCS)! She has got special talents, though. Remember the scene when she asks her doctor friend Joe Abernathy for help when deciding to go back to Jamie? Someone brought a skeleton in a cardboard box to ask Joe's opinion, who for his part passes the skull to Claire for judgement. After some hesitation she took it, closed her eyes and stated: Someone killed her! Joe's reply: She does it all the time.
I think it is pretty sure that this skull is Geilis's, who will be killed by Claire herself towards the send of the book. Reading this scene I'm always having the creeps! Did anybody wonder if there weren't fillings in the teeth or something else "modern" done to them?
I loved the scene when Claire brought the pink tulip to her daughter's grave, so touching. And one book later, after Bree's arrival, Clair and Jamie talked about their first daughter and Jamie said: I brought her violets. I was moved to tears!
Sorry, that's a wrong thread - least favorite character - and where it lead to!
"Sorry, that's a wrong thread - least favorite character - and where it lead to! "Lotte, that's why this is my favorite "Jamie" fan site. We can talk about all "those little moments", and we know we will be understood.
When Jamie and Claire talked about Faith and Jamie admits that he went to see her, I cried too. It was so poignant and sad, but also intimate.
Lotte wrote: "I think it is pretty sure that this skull is Geilis's, who will be killed by Claire herself towards the send of the book. Reading this scene I'm always having the creeps! Did anybody wonder if there weren't fillings in the teeth or something else "modern" done to them?"That is something new for me. I had never thought that it was Geilli's skull. I think I probably missed something. What made you think that?
Claire actually alluded to it in Voyager (I believe it was Voyager) she dreamt of Joe holding the skull and how she was saying that the woman was murdered, her age and that she was found in a cave. I remember Claire putting it together.Jamie was right, if Claire had come back she would have spent 18 years away from him anyway. He was 7 years in a cave, hiding. Then he went to Prison, then he was indentured. As much as it sucks that they were separated, we know as the readers that the would have separated anyway, if Claire even lived. She admitted that her pregnancy was hard and if she had stayed she probably would have died. I hated the separation too, but DG made sure it was necessary.
I know of people in real life that reunite with their high-school sweethearts after a whole life with somebody else, when they're around their 50's, and finally they get together and have a happy life.I have learned that art copies life, and if somebody imagined it, it probably happened. (Of course with exception of the most fantastic time travel and magic stuff)
Wow so many comments!I'll start with Jenny: I don't like her because she needs to mind her own business after all Jamie is a grown man and can decide what to do without her butting in. She wanted him to stay with her always and always had resentment towards Claire for taking him away from her. Whe she hooked him up with Laoghaire it was becasue he was lonely and she wanted him to have someone (again butting in, he can find his own woman if he wanted one) she sees Claire next to Jamie whe he is getting married to Laoghaire, Meaning Jamie will always belong to Claire, and still treats her like crap when she comes back.
Jamie didn't tell Claire right away about his marriage because it had been 18 years!!! He wanted to find the best way and moment to tell her. He took her back to Lallybroch and there was no way he was going to be able to hide it from her anymore so obviusly he was going to tell her in his on time, not on Jenny's time.
Jenny does not really like any woman that would take Jamie away from her and that is Claire, and hates that Claire didn't suffered the persecution from the British like she did, obviusly she wanted her to stay and get hangit or imprison in a cell then sold as a slave. I mean what does she think it was going to happen if she stayed? Besides if it wasn't for Claire they would all have starved, remember the potatoes.
So she is obssesed with her brother, no? well Spoiler alert! When Ian dies what is the first thing she says? I want to leave this place, there is nothing that ties me here..HELLOOOOO what about your children or Granchildren? they don't need you? or is it because you won't be the center of attention anymore because there is a new woman of the house now (Young Jamies Wife)
OK so you are in too much grieve and the place makes it worse then Move to France with Michael whose wife just died and he is all alone and I don't know your son might need you to keep an Eye on him specially now after Claire warned him of what is going to happen in 10-15 years the Terror war where the King and Quen are beheaded? But NOOOOO she wants to go with Jamie.
She is jealous of Claire because Claire gets to be with Jamie and travel and do things that she has never been able to do.
OMG I didn't know I didn't like her this much! wow..
Next on my list is Brianna, she is so whinyyy oh lord and things are her way or the highway. I tink she leans a lot on the Frasers are stubborn thing to get away with her nonsense. I also wish that Roger would man up one day and say, Listen woman just be cause you can hunt and shoot better than me does not mean you can treat me like this"
He can be a pussy sometimes and that makes me MAD!
Wendy wrote: "Claire actually alluded to it in Voyager (I believe it was Voyager) she dreamt of Joe holding the skull and how she was saying that the woman was murdered, her age and that she was found in a cave...."**Spoiler***
Yes, I was in the Voyager. No, it wasn't a dream. She was in Joe office (asking Joe if she still got it - before she traveled back the second time.), when the skull and bones were brought into the office. Claire was holding the skull and see the fractions on it. She said to Joe that that was a female skull and that the owner didn't want to die(or something like that). -- She later on recalled it in the cave confronting Geillis (when she took Ian there for the sacrifice) and knew then, that the skull belong to Geillis and how she died. So Claire knew how to do to kill her. -- That's in a nutshell. I got shiver when I read that part.
Moni wrote: "Kate wrote: "Moni wrote: I don’t know why but I like Tom Christie too??? Not that I want him with Claire??I like him, too. He's such a complex character, and has exhibited an ability to change ..."
OMG that would be funny. He obviously likes strong minded women (his ex wife the witch, Claire so I think Jenny would fit right in.
Wendy wrote: "Claire actually alluded to it in Voyager (I believe it was Voyager) she dreamt of Joe holding the skull and how she was saying that the woman was murdered, her age and that she was found in a cave...."Latinlandish wrote: "Lotte wrote: "I think it is pretty sure that this skull is Geilis's, who will be killed by Claire herself towards the send of the book. Reading this scene I'm always having the creeps! Did anybody ..."
I`m sorry Wendy, it was not at all a dream. Claire went to see Joe in his office and they are interrupted by this messanger bringing the skeleton. Clair thought him to be of the coroner's and the bones of a body badly weathered , but rather recently dead. Eventually they find out that it was a white woman, dead these 200 years, found in a cave in the Carribbean. Please go and read on page 279, how they describe the injuries of the vertebrae and then go the scene when Claire kills Geilis (page 1029). I think this can't be coincidence, can it?
That was real, yes. I didn't mean that the whole thing was a dream; I meant that after Claire kills Geillis she flashes back to that moment with Joe. That during the flashback she realizes that the skull had held belonged to Geillis and that Claire herself had killed her.
Raymond:I don't know if he is related to Claire but I don't think so, I think they discribe him as toad and squat like heheheh. Can't see Claire there LOL
I do think Claire has healing powers, remember the Native American old lady that told her her powers would be complete or at her best, something like that, when her hair turned white. It might be taken two ways I think: the older you get the wiser you are (for some people Lol) or she does supernatural have powers and I lean more to this because of what we can see most of them do: Jenny has had visios, so did Jamie in Echo when he dreamt of the kids, and let's not forger Jemmy and Mandy....
Wan wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Claire actually alluded to it in Voyager (I believe it was Voyager) she dreamt of Joe holding the skull and how she was saying that the woman was murdered, her age and that she was fo..."You are right, I love how I don't even have to get the book to check. You guys are like the outlander enciclopedia haha
WOW! You girls can be detectives. That's amazing. I really didn't see that coming.And thanks everybody for posting the SPOILER ALERTS!!!
I am kind of waiting to go to ABOAS, and by now I already know that Claire will have sex w/ LG. I thought it would be OK to have some spoilers, but I guess I want also a little bit of surprises.;)
I guess the only spoiler alert I really would like to have is to know that Jamie and Claire will finally die of old age embraced in their sleep. I guess that's the only one I can take it and not be miserable.Maybe it would be good, if they both could the fossils in the french cave.
I got spoiled to the Claire and LJG thing too, it was a bummer. Sorry, Latinlandish.
Both of you are right, it was a dream AND it was real. Claire was just recollecting it after the fact! :)
The fact that Bree was w/ Bonnet in the prison when the building caught on fire, was another dumb thing that Bree did. If she were not there, the guy would just be burnt and a lot of evil spared. But I guess that is what makes the story goes on and on...