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message 1: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) We all know who the characters are that we're crazy about. That's easy. But I was wondering who your least favorite characters are?

For me, Bree is one of them. I like her independence and strength, but sometimes I just want to hit her over the head because she's just being, for lack of a better word, dumb. She tends to take logic to an extreme and it makes her come off as cold-hearted and passionateless. Of course, that's only when she's not flying off the handle at some little offense. She was okay and normal in DiA, but after that she just started to drive me crazy.

Also, of course, there's the obvious people to hate because they're the baddies, such as Stephen Bonnet and Black Jack Randall.

Who are your least favorite characters?


message 2: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments I too have had my problems with Bree. I love her on one hand but on the other I think that she is really insensitive toward Roger. She expects so much from him and he is in a completely foreign world. He is an intellectual and isn't the manly man she is used to. though her father (Frank) was also an intellectual, he enjoyed guns, camping and the outdoors, etc. I just feel that she expects too much from him and needs to show more love and support toward him while he learns.

Also I don't like Jocasta, Duncan and I had a real hard time liking Lord John at first. He just rubbed me wrong when he came on to Jamie. He was his friend and it was a real betrayal to me when he propositioned him, with Jamies horrible background in that department.


message 3: by Mellady77 (new)

Mellady77 Stibich | 13 comments Whats-her-name who married the twins...


message 4: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) Wendy wrote: "I too have had my problems with Bree. I love her on one hand but on the other I think that she is really insensitive toward Roger. She expects so much from him and he is in a completely foreign wor..."

Yeah, Jocasta is pretty sketchy. She's one of those scheming MacKenzies! Although I did like Colum. Duncan I never minded one way or the other.

It's so hard to remember how I felt about Lord John when I first read the series! I'm sure I felt probably the same - really annoyed that he came on to Jamie. But I think I was more annoyed that he was so focused on the gold. He really grew on me though, now he's one of my favorite characters!

And Mellady77, I remember who you're talking about and I agree! Was her name Lizzie? I don't remember and don't have the books nearby. She caused an AWFUL lot of problems.


message 5: by Teryl (new)

Teryl Yeah, it was Lizzie Wyms who married the Beardsley twins.

I don't think John knew about Jamie's incident with Jack Randall when he came on to Jamie.

Jocasta, she is too scheming and manipulative for my taste. For awhile I couldn't stand Tom Christie, but he redeemed himself in ABOSAA.


message 6: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments Lizzie is the character I like the least as well. She always seemed a little too helpless and naive. I also thought it was just plain creepy that she married both the feral twin brothers.


message 7: by Erika (new)

Erika (erikaboncz) | 64 comments I just got done with my re-read of Dragonfly and Amber and on to Voyager....I have read about Jocasta in a while although what I remember yeah she was definately "Scheming". I will have to add more as I re-read them.


message 8: by Cynthia (new)

Cynthia Hanna-Tarantino (ctara) | 309 comments I don't really like Lizzie either...I think her whole story line with the twins is just down right bizzare. IMHO I wouldn't think Jamie would tolerate that sort of behavior on the ridge.Being the "Papist" papa that he was!


message 9: by Mary (new)

Mary Campbell (lifeispoetry) | 17 comments Sarah wrote: "We all know who the characters are that we're crazy about. That's easy. But I was wondering who your least favorite characters are?
--------------
THANK YOU. I have written elsewhere in this thread that she is touchy and self-absorbed... and PEOPLE LET HER GET AWAY WITH IT... they even CATER to her extreme sensitivity... none of which would be the case if she weren't tall and gorgeous.... When a chapter is about her, I scan for essentials and go to next chapter




message 10: by Mary (new)

Mary Campbell (lifeispoetry) | 17 comments I liked Lord John right away, because he was an oasis of civilization in that nasty prison. He never pressured Jamie re sex and he COULD have. And then he found Jamie that gig on farm, which turned out to be a disaster because of the wench and the subsequent baby.... And he took the kid and raised him well. It bothers me that Claire is so hostile to him.

LJ and the Private Matter seemed not to even have been written by Diana Gabaldon, whose prose is so lovely and descriptive of detail in all the Outlander books.




message 11: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments I hadn't thought about Lizzy as one that I didn't like. She is funny to me and the twins are a real kick within the story. It just puts a little lightness to the story.

Also, I never trusted Jocasta's Black overseer. What's his name? He seemed to be against his won people most of the time.


message 12: by Cynthia (new)

Cynthia Hanna-Tarantino (ctara) | 309 comments Wendy wrote: "I hadn't thought about Lizzy as one that I didn't like. She is funny to me and the twins are a real kick within the story. It just puts a little lightness to the story.

Also, I never trusted Jo..."


Ulysses....I know I spelled that wrong, but I don't have time to look it up. I just really didn't like how the whole Lizzie sleeping with both of the twins. I didn't think it really added anything to the story...the whole three-some on the ridge thing...???ehhhhhh maybe I'm just an auld fuddie duddie.


message 13: by Heidi (new)

Heidi Apart from the bad guys, I have to agree that Bree is the most annoying to me... not that I want her to be a clone of Claire, but she can be so withdrawn from Roger (who I actually think is one of the most realistic since he does have so much trouble adjusting to his new reality-- much more than Claire or Bree). I guess I expect her to be more giving than she is... I've still got to finish A Breath of Snow and Ashes... maybe my opinion will soften.


message 14: by Meg (new)

Meg adams (irish_redhead) | 4 comments ok i am so glad i found this group! i thought i was the only one who disliked bree. i have always found her annoying beyond belief! and i agree with mary above, i scan her chapters for important info and then move on, and to be honest in my re-reading of the series i have skipped some of her chapters all together.

i know i am going to get it for this one but i dont like roger either. i think that both of them are rather indulged and selfish. roger starts to get better toward the end, mostly in ABOSAA, but i still think he is kind of a watery guy. maybe be it is his stark contrast to jamie ( and even wee ians) alpha male-ness, but i think he is just too soft.


message 15: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments I also thought Roger was a bit soft and a little whiney but, once I remembered where he came from and how he has handled some very traumatic things that happened to him since he went back in time, I really started to like him. I do agree that Brianna is very self-absorbed and spoiled.

I think Ulysses, Jocasta and Duncan are scheming and can be very nast but, I like the story line and enjoy reading about them. I think they bring a little mystery to the story. I am always wondering what their true motives are!


message 16: by Angela (new)

Angela (angelah110) | 40 comments I agree w/y'all about Lizzie, I think the double spouse thing is a little slimy, I also think she made some dumb decisions in Drums that contibuted to Roger's problems. Since Roger is my favorite next to Jamie, I can't seem to forgive her.


message 17: by Cynthia (new)

Cynthia Hanna-Tarantino (ctara) | 309 comments Well, now I'm not so sure I like the Bugs as much as I used to.


message 18: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) Meg wrote: "ok i am so glad i found this group! i thought i was the only one who disliked bree. i have always found her annoying beyond belief! and i agree with mary above, i scan her chapters for important in..."

I don't think I've ever had a huge problem with Roger. He is a bit "soft", but mostly when it comes to Bree and putting up with her crazy mood swings. And that's when I wish he would man up and tell her off a bit!
I also remember being frustrated with his self-pity after he's trying to heal his throat. I don't like a lot of blatant self-pity like that in men.

Overall though, I do like Roger. He's sweet, intelligent, and has a strong moral character that I really like.


message 19: by Meg (new)

Meg adams (irish_redhead) | 4 comments Sarah wrote: "Meg wrote: "ok i am so glad i found this group! i thought i was the only one who disliked bree. i have always found her annoying beyond belief! and i agree with mary above, i scan her chapters for ..."

i totally agree with you. and maybe that is where my issue comes from, the way he handles bree. i mean i get that he loves her and all but he seems (as does everyone) so willing to let her have her way just by whinning enough. he has been through alot and i think he ends up stronger than he starts out. it is just of all the characters in the book, he doesnt make me excited as much as frustrated.

again that may have more to do with his wife...


message 20: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments Roger does start out a little soft at first, but he starts to show his real strength later on. I liked that Jamie started to appreciate him too. when he invited the Christy's to live on the ridge and though Jamie wasn't sure about that decision. But he honored it and asked his advise more than once. I liked that. I can't wait to see how he and Bree are doing in the future. Will he return to his teaching? Will he continue to preach? Will he go in another direction? I guess in a few days we will find out.


message 21: by Mary (new)

Mary Campbell (lifeispoetry) | 17 comments Meg wrote, i know i am going to get it for this one but i dont like roger either. i think that both of them are rather indulged and selfish. roger starts to get better toward the end....
-----------------
MY PROBLEM WITH ROGER is that I started out with the wrong physical description of him. My friend Elaine says he's tall and dark-haired and great-looking, but I got it in my head that he's balding and weak-chinned. And I agree about the self-pity when he can't sing, AND when he thinks Stephen Bonnet might be the father of Bree's baby. So-frigging-what? I want to scream at Roger and Bree, get OVER yourselves!
WHO has been through more than Claire, unable to get back to the 20th century, being a captive, almost being burned as a witch, having to marry Jamie, losing her baby, nursing the gory wounded for Bonnie Prince Charlie's lost cause, having to go back through the stones, pregnant, and, my god, what's she supposed to say to her husband? And that's just the beginning. And still, she collects medicinal herbs, makes her own penicillin, works in such a beautifully organized manner in that wonderful house in the N.C. mountains... and then she's captured and raped.
FINALLY, Jamie should have cut Roger some slack after R. was rescued. I don't care if Jamie DID have to trade Ian for Roger, the WHOLE THING was his fault.
There, I feel better now....




message 22: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) LOL Mary,
I agree with most of that, but I am willing to cut Roger some slack on the baby-might-not-be-mine issue. That's a serious issue, and I definitely understand his reluctance in accepting it. While he always loves Bree, it doesn't mean that he'll instantly feel the way about a child that might be the product of rape, and not his love.

And yeah, Jamie should've been less hard of Roger after he came back. For goodness sake, he almost ruined the possibility of Roger and Bree getting back together, all because he was hard-headed and narrow-minded. But at least he gets better eventually.


message 23: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments I was a little annoyed with Brianna for blaming Lizzie for Roger being traded to the Indians. If Brianna had told Jamie who raped her or that she was hand-fasted to Roger and that the baby could be his, there wouldn't have been so much confusion in the first place. Lizzie only told Jamie exactly what she saw. I am not saying it was completely her fault but, she instantly blamed Jamie and Lizzie and took no responsiblity for her own part in it.


message 24: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments Interesting points of view. I pretty much agree with it all.


message 25: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments What no one likes Frank or Loaghaire least of all? I'm shocked.

I love Bree. She's just so 'Fraser'. Definitely Jamie's daughter and her aunt Jenny's niece.

My least favorite is Malva Christie. The way she backstabbed Jamie and Claire whilst going about bonking half the male countryside made her one slimey character. Yes, her childhood was rough, but to do that to Claire? Ugh. Good riddance Malva.

--
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message 26: by Morgan (new)

Morgan | 2 comments I'm so glad that some of you feel the same way about Bree that I do. And that feeling is that I'm not a huge fan. I actually liked her at first. But, in the past two books she really bothered me. She is stubborn to a fault (more so than Jaime) and prideful. She never thinks she's wrong, and sometimes I question her feelings for Roger. I know she loves him...but I suppose she could just show it more, or in a better way.


message 27: by Cristina (new)

Cristina | 5 comments Morgan wrote: "I'm so glad that some of you feel the same way about Bree that I do. And that feeling is that I'm not a huge fan. I actually liked her at first. But, in the past two books she really bothered me..."

Exactly the way I feel! I thought she was okay during the first go around, but during the re-reads I found myself more & more irritated by the way she treats Roger, whom I adore (second to Jamie, of course!)


message 28: by Erika (new)

Erika (erikaboncz) | 64 comments Renee wrote: "What no one likes Frank or Loaghaire least of all? I'm shocked.

I hated Loaghaire, I was happy to hear the books so I now pronounce her name right, I would love to see her gone in the next book.

The more I am reading the FC I am starting to agree with the Lizzy comments too.



message 29: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments Renee wrote: "What no one likes Frank or Loaghaire least of all? I'm shocked.

I love Bree. She's just so 'Fraser'. Definitely Jamie's daughter and her aunt Jenny's niece.

My least favorite is Malva Christ..."


I agree that Frank and Leghair are definately not on my favorites list. But I guess I think of them as lesser characters. Especially now that we are so far into the story. I was thinking of the main characters that are left at the end of ABOSAA.



message 30: by Meg (new)

Meg adams (irish_redhead) | 4 comments Sarah wrote: "LOL Mary,
I agree with most of that, but I am willing to cut Roger some slack on the baby-might-not-be-mine issue. That's a serious issue, and I definitely understand his reluctance in accepting ..."


i agree that jamie was a little ( o.k alot) hard on roger when he initially came back from the indians. but at the same time, he has a point in his argument that if roger had left bree alone post-handfasting when they argued, there would have been alot of issues prevented....but then i guess there wouldnt be most of the book DOA!


message 31: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) Ohhhhh, I didn't even think about Loaghaire! Yeah, what a wench.


message 32: by Katie (new)

Katie Potter | 1 comments I have never held such a strong hatred for anyone(not even real people) as I do Lord John. I read the series at least 15 times before I could bring myself to pick up the Lord John series. Even now I feel myself growing irritated.

There are points when I almost start to understand him enough to 'like' him but I still can't get by the scene in the prison.


message 33: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) I never hated him over the prison scene. He was assuming that Jamie knew something about the gold, which was an understandable assumption. I didn't like that he threatened Jamie's family. And then when he "confessed" his feelings to Jamie, I wasn't bothered. He didn't know about Wentworth, so I guess I don't hold him too much to blame there. Also, LJ always could have taken what he wanted to Jamie by force, but never did. I think that makde me respect him, and as the series went on I grew more and more fond of him.


message 34: by Fiona (new)

Fiona (yahoodymcewan) | 116 comments Sorry to say this folks but i never really liked Frank! He sounded to me like a control freak who didn't really care about anyone else but himself & his interests sod everyone else unless they could have been a benfit to him. I do think that he loved Bree as his own daughter but that's about as far as i will go on that. Just my thoughts.


message 35: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments Sarah wrote: "I never hated him over the prison scene. He was assuming that Jamie knew something about the gold, which was an understandable assumption. I didn't like that he threatened Jamie's family. And then ..."

I didn't like LJ until he met Bree. I thought that his help to her was really wonderful and he is very dedicated to her, and I don't think that it is because of Jamie. I think he truely likes her for herself. And the way that he has raised Willie is really touching. He loved Willie's Aunt in his own way, but he thinks of Willie as his son, and would do anything for him. Who wouldn't? He is so much like Jamie, yet has his own pluses as well.


message 36: by Kelly (new)

Kelly  | 235 comments Both Roger and Bree. I want to like them but somehow they fall so short. Maybe because I love love C&J so. I don't want to add any spoilers but I thought that after Bree went thru a similar experience that Jamie had I would feel more for her. I actually enjoy her scenes with Jamie so much more.


message 37: by Kelly (new)

Kelly  | 235 comments Why is Jamie so upset that Loagrhaire is fooling around with someone else. That makes me so angry! Did he actually love her? I hope that Claire has another chance to tell that woman off.


message 38: by Meg (new)

Meg adams (irish_redhead) | 4 comments Kelly wrote: "Why is Jamie so upset that Loagrhaire is fooling around with someone else. That makes me so angry! Did he actually love her? I hope that Claire has another chance to tell that woman off. "

amen to that! i think it is just the idea that someone else could "please her". jamie is, if nothing else, a proud man, the idea that he was lacking in someway would irritate him to no end.

( i use please her in quotes because i believe that woman would never be pleased. she is horrid)


message 39: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments

( i use please her in quotes because i believe that woman would never be pleased. she is horrid)

Amen to that! We all want Leg Hair to get he due.


message 40: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments I don't. You all know I have an undying sympathy for Loaghaire. She wanted Jamie, and he led her on with the snogging, and then fell for Claire. And she proceeded to get stuck with awful husbands. Finally gets Jamie and he's calling out to Claire in his sleep. His sister is seeing her at the wedding. I'm not sure any of you would feel any differently if you were competing with Claire.

I like Bree and Roger. I think they're relationship is far more true-to-life than Jamie and Claire's. 'Jamie and Claire' are pure fiction.

Oh, more recent characters? Well, I did say Malva. I really dislike what she intended to do to Jamie and Claire.

--
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message 41: by Kelly (new)

Kelly  | 235 comments Roger and Bree are so boring!!! I hate how they are never really upfront about the way they feel. J&C can tell each other everything and I think that creates an intamacy that Roger and Bree are so lacking. Of course having little Jem around doesn't help.
As for Loaghaire (how the heck do you say that?) I even hate her name. I will never like her and I think I am truly more mad at Jamie if it was anyone else but her after he knew Claire was quite jealous of her when they returned to Castle Leoch and had that awesome fight! I loved that scene DG is brilliant. How could he go with her!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really have an Outlander problem. You would think the way I write about them they are real people.



message 42: by Wendy (new)

Wendy | 259 comments You are not alone in feeling like they are real Kelly. we all disscuss these books and rehash them over and over and they seem real to me too.

I think you say her name as LaGeery. It said it a couple of times in the books somewhere.


message 43: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) I felt bad for Loaghaire in book 1. For about 5 minutes. For goodness sake, it was just a crush that she had on Jamie! She might have been infatuated, but she wasn't in love with him - she hardly knew him.

And to go so far as to literally kill the competition (by sending Claire to get caught by witch-hunters at the Duncans' house), she lost all of my compassion instantly. Once you go that far, you've gone from innocent puppy-love to heartless psycho.


message 44: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments You do have to remember the times. Was Colum psycho for doing exactly the same thing to Gellis? Or trying to. If he hadn't done that L wouldn't have had a chance. It seems to me that it was right with the times to 'do away' with rivals. We are talking 18th Century here. Colum was certainly far more ruthless than L. And Gellis poisoning her husband(s). She was far, far more ruthless than L.

L was very young, was obviously enamored of Jamie, so much so that she remembered when Jamie spent time at the castle and she was just a child. Jamie led her on. I don't care what anyone says, he led her on. Snogging with her on his lap! Then he just decided Claire was worth more attention. I can see her being red-hot angry after that. And she was very young. No, I don't see that she acted in any extraordinarily psycho way for the times.

--
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message 45: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments I agree that Jamie led her on and he was kind of a jerk to her. However, I don't think trying to have Claire killed is justified in anyway. Even in the 18th Century. Geillis did kill her husband but, don't we all agree that she was psycho? Yes, Colum was ruthless and tried to have Geillis killed but again I don't think it was justified. He knew it wouldn't be acceptable or he would have just killed her outright and not had her declared as a witch and burned.

I think L crossed over the line when she tried to have Claire killed.


message 46: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Of course her scheming to have Claire killed was wrong. I just marvel at the extra hate that L gets from Outlander readers. What about Dougal? He KNEW that Colum meant to kill Gellis and that was fine and dandy with him. Colum KNEW that Claire wasn't in the house when all the bru-ha-ha occured but he wouldn't let anyone out to try to go and stop Claire being caught up in it. Ned Gowan went.
Dougal tried to get Claire to go with him so that he could grab Lallybroch when Jamie was hanged. Malva Christie tried to kill Claire as well. ???


I really don't understand why special dislike is reserved for L considering the actions of so many other characters.

--
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message 47: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments That is true. I don't think she is more reprehensible than many of the other characters but, I also don't have any more sympathy for her than I do for any of those characters. Well, maybe a little more for her than I do for Geillis. She is just evil.


message 48: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahsaysread) Well, I believe others have already agreed that Malva isn't well-liked...

Colum was a leader, and I believe that he always acted in the best interests of his clan and family. It wouldn't have been sensible to risk any of his people to save Claire, who was still a suspicious person to him.

Dougal was very obviously callous and an opportunist, but I think I never hated him because Jamie was always so fond of him, differences aside.

Renee, you're absolutely correct in saying that it was common 18th-century decorum to get rid of rivals. However, that was often for business or family-related reasons. Loaghaire was that kind of jealous and crazy ex-gf we all read about these days! Yes, other characters in the novel acted immorally as well, but what sets her apart is the fact that she cold-heartedly sent someone to be murdered without knowing for certain that she would benefit if Claire was gone. She didn't have solid proof that Jamie had the slightest feelings for her, or that he would have come back to her if Claire were removed. She acted foolishly and impulsively, quite blind with envy and rage.

Also, I believe seeing her again in the later novels makes it clear that she's unstable. Jamie's family makes it obvious that she's a handful, she goes off on Bree, and oh yeah- She freaking shot Jamie! Jamie makes it obvious later that there was no love or romance in his marriage to Loaghaire - she seems to be extremely possessive of him just for the sake of it, not because she truly loves or cares for him.


message 49: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Well, he was married to her at the time and in bed with...Claire. I still hate that deceit on his part to both women.
I don't think she's possessive of him. Umm, they WERE married. I don't care what Jamie says about the marriage. He gets away with a LOT that Jamie. Most times I love him, but sometimes I think, "You clever devil.". And he is, too. How he ever beat Claire's bum and got away with that I do not know.

L's minding her own business in Scotland all this time he's gone away with Claire, so it's not like she's stalking him. I wouldn't call that possessive.

Yes, she may be a bit unstable but I feel pity for L rather than total disgust. It seems that everyone else gets a 'pass' for their behavior and L gets crucified. It still bloody baffles me!

--
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message 50: by Kelly (new)

Kelly  | 235 comments I think the main thing is she has slept with Jamie and we are all jealous!! I am !!!


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