Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
I don't think I can say anything beyond *headdesk*. I think I have officially run out of steam for answering the same bullshit over and over again.
Atheism is becoming something of a fad...yeah, that rational thought stuff will never catch on.Hazel, I second your headdesk
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0sftr...This pretty much covers all the arguements made so far..."
she's brilliant :D
Lets throw this one into the mix too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSxgnu...
Santiago, science doesn't create nor bad or good things. We are the evil and the good, that's us that pick up things and use them as we please.
And you don't need religion to teach you about love, forgiveness or compassion (Aesop, La Fontaine, Grimm and Oscar Wilde's stories taught me more than the bible).
Do you really think atheism is a fad? Do we really need to believe in some sort of deity to rule our lives? I think that's the other way around. People one day will realise that they don't need religion to be happy or achieve fulfillment.
Let's do an experience: try to live one day without religion and another without science.
Without religion: Are you scared? Believe in yourself. Do you want something you don't have? Work for it. Do you want to be happy? Do things that you take pleasure on. Do you want to feel loved? Stay close to your family and friends. Do you want to be a realized person? Fight for your dreams. Do you want to be forgiven? Make of yourself a better person.
Without science: Are you wounded or ill? Do nothing about it, god will save you. Do you want to have sex? Don't take precautions and maybe you'll don't get aids or a std. Are you hungry? Cultivate your own food and eat it raw. Want to travel? Use your feet. Do you want me to continue?
And you don't need religion to teach you about love, forgiveness or compassion (Aesop, La Fontaine, Grimm and Oscar Wilde's stories taught me more than the bible).
Do you really think atheism is a fad? Do we really need to believe in some sort of deity to rule our lives? I think that's the other way around. People one day will realise that they don't need religion to be happy or achieve fulfillment.
Let's do an experience: try to live one day without religion and another without science.
Without religion: Are you scared? Believe in yourself. Do you want something you don't have? Work for it. Do you want to be happy? Do things that you take pleasure on. Do you want to feel loved? Stay close to your family and friends. Do you want to be a realized person? Fight for your dreams. Do you want to be forgiven? Make of yourself a better person.
Without science: Are you wounded or ill? Do nothing about it, god will save you. Do you want to have sex? Don't take precautions and maybe you'll don't get aids or a std. Are you hungry? Cultivate your own food and eat it raw. Want to travel? Use your feet. Do you want me to continue?
Both science and religion have positive sides, and anyone who ignores it is merely seeking out some form of personal vendettaAh, now I get it, I'm just bitter. Right, thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I have realised the error of my ways. I think I've found the light, who'll join me in rejoicing that the scales have dropped from my eyes:
Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Iä! Shub-Niggurath! Iä! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!
See, that just takes me to thinking about goat boy, and then we actually have a link between Shub-Niggaruth and the real world through the Late Great Prophet.
Nícia wrote: "Without science: Are you wounded or ill? Do nothing about it, god will save you. Do you want to have sex? Don't take precautions and maybe you'll don't get aids or a std. Are you hungry? Cultivate your own food and eat it raw. Want to travel? Use your feet. Do you want me to continue?."I'd like to add an errata to this. Cultivation requires some level of science. It should be, in my mind, find what you can and hope to your god that its not poisonous, and catch whatever you can with your bare hands, and eat it raw after skinning and gutting it with your hands.
Hazel wrote: "Both science and religion have positive sides, and anyone who ignores it is merely seeking out some form of personal vendettaAh, now I get it, I'm just bitter. Right, thanks for clearing that up ..."
Seriously though...even placebos have some effect.
For instance in a recent study on alcohol's effect on behaviour many acted drunk with lowered inhibitions even when drinking non-alcoholic drinks they had been told were booze.
Doesn't say if they had placebo induced hangovers though.
I'd rather stick with a large glass of 16 year old Scapa and some Thomas Paine...than cold tea and a bible.
I'm a Bruichladdich girl myself, if I can have that, it sounds like a good plan to me. :D
I would like to be a Bruichladdich girl myself.
Love many of the Islays myself. Can't abide the Laphroaig though.Rediscovering the Orkadians at the minute, just moved from the Highland Park 18 (a joy) back to the Scapa after a wee break from them.
Hazel wrote: "See, that just takes me to thinking about goat boy, and then we actually have a link between Shub-Niggaruth and the real world through the Late Great Prophet."All Hail Saint Bill! Io Pan!
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Love many of the Islays myself. Can't abide the Laphroaig though.Rediscovering the Orkadians at the minute, just moved from the Highland park 18 (a joy) back to the Scapa after a wee break from t..."
While me and friends were on Islay, we decided on our last night, with most of a bottle of bruichladdich left that we had to live up to the local traditions, and we threw the cork in the fire as a sign of our intent. And yes, it was all gone before we went to bed.
hazel--would you mind telling me what all this gibberish is you guys are talking about? is this someting from ireland,wales or ? or am i stupid?remember i am not from england!
Bunnie wrote: "hazel--would you mind telling me what all this gibberish is you guys are talking about? is this someting from ireland,wales or ? or am i stupid?remember i am not from england!"
Now some of the gibberish is in relation to the glories of whisky (not whiskey, which would be the Irish or American spirits) and would be the Scots Gaelic names for a more malty and less holy spirit.
The other gibberish is from the works of H.P. Lovecraft and relates to the worship of (fictitious) deities that are cosmic horrors and drive their worshipers to madness...the quotes are from (again, fictitious) rituals. They are (from my point of view anyway) used in attempt to show that belief in any supernatural god like entity backed up by an old book is as relevant as any other.
My tongue (or tentacle) is firmly in my cheek.
You are not stupid...but I am guilty of being a geek in relation to '30s pulp horror fiction and the uisge beatha (whisky).
Nícia wrote: "Santiago, science doesn't create nor bad or good things. We are the evil and the good, that's us that pick up things and use them as we please.And you don't need religion to teach you about love,..."
I would love to agree with that. Individualism is something that needs to be spread throughout society. However, it's been proven throughout history that atheism will never be a stronghold of humanity.
And even though science has not created good or evil, it is the gateway that has allowed for humanity to create good or evil.
I'm not that strong on sociology, but something that has always stuck with me is the strength of humanity's communities. However, in almost all of these cases, there has been one common ground- religion. I'm not saying that humanity would be better off without science because it is evil, but because I doubt humanity can exist without religion of some sort.
Bunnie, HP Lovecraft, if you haven't heard of him, was one of the best horror writers of his time, he's considered the father of modern horror. He was also American. He wrote several stories around elder gods who weren't very nice. The gibberish is the language he invented that the insane followers of these gods use while worshipping these gods.Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn means "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming".
Ia means "hey", or something similar, so Ia Ia Shub-Niggaruth fhtagn means "hey, hey, Shub-Niggaruth dreams/waits".
There are a number of these gods that he wrote about, and none of them were particularly pleasant.
If you haven't read any Lovecraft, I recommend it, he's very good, and because its all short stories you can read him piecemeal.
Santiago, atheism has, historically, never been a stronghold because if you were atheist, the churches would put you to death for it. That sort of irrationality is hard to stand against.The example you gave of the atom bomb earlier, the man who gave the order to use it was a christian.
I'd even say that the reason science has previously been used for evil is because religion created a mentality that people of one religion are better than people of another, it creates division, hate and prejudice. Until the rise of monotheism, homosexuality was not only accepted, it was considered normal in many cultures. The greeks considered it normal, many native american men became wives to other men. Religion, in the last 5000 years has demonised things that are normal, created several cultures who are supremicist over anyone not of the same religion, and taught people that we have dominion over the world and everything in it. These belief systems are what feed us these prejudices and hatreds.
Science has vast numbers of ethical guidelines that are far more moral than anything you'll find in the bible, or the koran, or pretty much any other holy book you'd care to name.
FOr Barbar (i'll not post again, 4 times in a row would just be rude):
Love it...what every well dressed cultist needs.We should probably stop now...becoming an in joke and just confusing the issue.
I will keep my worship of the Elder Gods and my whisky drinking to more suitable threads...unless provoked.
On a brief aside regarding the fictitious nature or otherwise of the "gods" of the Cthulhu cycle of tales. They are used occasionaly in chaos magic(k) to form rituals around...and we probably shouldn't get into that in too much detail here.But some practitioners claim good results.
Having said that, a wise man once said:
“In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.”
Note: "...students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them..."
Therefore the entities are a tool to enable certain results. If there are no results you change the tool or method until the desired result occurs. If it cannot be replicated do something else...like make a cup of tea and get on with real life instead of arsing about with "Spirits and Conjurations"...
Religion and Science are more similar than you think.
Tina wrote: "Religion and Science are more similar than you think."PLease, elucidate
Religion and Science go hand in hand. There is nothing that discounts the other, as long as we have the technology to understand both sides of that same coin. You can't honestly have one without the other.
ok, lets start with a simple precept.Religion is based on faith. Faith is belief without evidence.
Science is based on evidence. It explains the world as it really is.
Science adjusts it views according to observation, faith denies observation in order to preserve a belief.
Now, no, they are not the two sides of the same coin.
And, yes, you can honestly have one without the other. Specifically, you can have science without religion (religion without science would leave us all dead of the measles within a couple of generations), anything that religion claims to be able to achieve can be achieved through purely secular means. No form of erroneous belief system needs to be waved around. And the best thing about achieving things by secular means is that you are not metaphorically, and in some cases literally, holding someones sandwich hostage to Jesus.
And one thing that science has led us to understand is that religion is moot.
I would have to go with Science, and drop religion. I believe in spirituality, you can have your beliefs and your studies without "organized religion" which I never have been and never will be a part of (whole other story) so I think we can survive as spiritual beings without the segragating walls of "religion".
Old Barbarossa wrote: "Therefore the entities are a tool to enable certain results. If there are no results you change the tool or method until the desired result occurs. If it cannot be replicated do something else...like make a cup of tea and get on with real life instead of arsing about with "Spirits and Conjurations"..."
Couldn't say better.
Santiago, I agree with Hazel. Believers get their moral in religion, but that wasn't much of a use, was it? How many were slaughtered, burned, persecuted for being different or for telling the truth?
An how does religion teach it? By fear: watch out the devil and you're going to hell. This should work with kids, and yet I find that's not the best way to educate them, but with adults?
Couldn't say better.
Santiago, I agree with Hazel. Believers get their moral in religion, but that wasn't much of a use, was it? How many were slaughtered, burned, persecuted for being different or for telling the truth?
An how does religion teach it? By fear: watch out the devil and you're going to hell. This should work with kids, and yet I find that's not the best way to educate them, but with adults?
Heather, explain why please. We aren't god so we can't see what you're thinking about the subject.
Where is the link between science and religion? (I'm not saying there isn't one)
Where is the link between science and religion? (I'm not saying there isn't one)
If God gave us reason to rise above the other animals then science is our vehicle for understanding his creation. Religion has not contributed towards that goal, if it is a goal worthy of our search. On that simple basis I vote science if I must chose.
Religion has contributed to many wars in history and to my understanding science has yet to drive us to any conflict of violence on any kind of mass scale.
This is a no brainer. Reason, not revealed.
Heather-Lea wrote: "Religion and Science go hand in hand. There is nothing that discounts the other, as long as we have the technology to understand both sides of that same coin. You can't honestly have one without th..."Tina wrote: "Religion and Science are more similar than you think."
In my opinion there are no parallels or similarities whatsoever between science and religion. At least I cannot see one. For me they are completely different spheres of human experience and we really shouldn't try to mix them because no good can come of it. I think the case of creationism proves the point here very well.
hazel-message 1228--thanks for the explanation--now i know i'm not crazy-at my age sometimes i am not up with all you young people-hazel i have started rereading ' Song of the Dodo' by david Quammen-it was first published in 1996 --it does pay to reread some books --i read too fast the first time and the second time i get more out of it- i must say it is still a good book. if more of these religious nuts would read it maybe they would learn something.
old barbarossa-message 1226--thanks for that -along with your explantion and hazels now i understand.i have never heard or of read H P Lovecraft.
I highly recommend him, I suggest starting with the one with Cthulhu in, as we were singing his praises...The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories
Bunnie wrote: "old barbarossa-message 1226--thanks for that -along with your explantion and hazels now i understand.i have never heard or of read H P Lovecraft."He can be a bit hit and miss and at times is a bit "of his time". I'm not gone on his dream cycle tales, enjoy his mythos stories though.
When he's on form he is disturbingly creepy. Hazel's rec for a taster has some of the classics in it.
I really like The Outsider, which is in the book I recommended. Herbert West - Reanimator is good for a giggle too :D
How about this-Which takes more faith-to believe that there is a higher power which created the universe, a higher power who is the beginning and the end and holds creation in his caring, loving and perfect hand. . .
or to believe that somehow we were randomly brought into existence with no reason to live or to die, merely evolved beings with no moral standards other than our own (or lack of our own) ?
Tina, you make it sound as if your two propositions are our only choices: if we don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent--and I would add--supernatural, higher power, then the result is that we have no reason for being here, no morality, and that furthermore if we had our own human moral code, it would be a miserable human failure. Sounds as if you believe in the notion of original sin and a "caring, loving, perfect" (male) creator. Am I right?
Tina wrote: "Which takes more faith-to believe that there is a higher power which created the universe, a higher power who is the beginning and the end and holds creation in his caring, loving and perfect hand. . .or to believe that somehow we were randomly brought into existence with no reason to live or to die, merely evolved beings with no moral standards other than our own (or lack of our own) ? "
If something is supposed to be based on science, there shouldn't be any faith involved at all.
If something is based on faith/religion you shouldn't try and apply any kind of science or logical reasoning to it because the paradoxes involved will eventually give you a brain meltdown.
Tina wrote: "How about this-Which takes more faith-to believe that there is a higher power which created the universe, a higher power who is the beginning and the end and holds creation in his caring, loving ..."
It takes no faith to believe there is no god, it does however make more sense to reject the idea of a deity.
Hazel wrote: "It takes no faith to believe there is no god, it does however make more sense to reject the idea of a deity."Well, if you define 'sense' as logic then agreed.
If you however define 'sense' as meaning of your existence - then it is just the opposite.
This may be one of the reasons religions have such a powerful hold on societies.
sorry, should have put rational sense, so yes, logical sense
But you have to have "faith" in what you're doing to conduct scientific research! In that sense we're not talking about the blind faith that is a requirement for religious beliefs.
The word faith is synonymous with trust, and do we trust in what religion tells us? I for one, do not.
On the other hand, do scientists trust and hope, that what they're doing will eventually end up leading them to answers? Yes of course, but their faith and trust in future findings and discoveries is REAL.
Science requires a bit of 'faith', but it also requires evidence.religion just announces they have faith, but no evidence and then go 'See, science and religion are equal'.
I think we are going into semantics here.Of course a scientist can say (as a scientist), that he has faith in some hypothesis or that he believes a prediction is correct but in mouth of a scientist these words have different meaning than in mouth of a religious person.
A scientist can even have an epiphany but it does not mean she/he saw a burning bush.
Morality is evidence. Creation is evidence. Even science is living proof there is a God.
Science is proof there is god? Please elucidate how you think that works. Morality in the bible, or other holy books is lacking. My morality is better than Gods, as he is depicted in the Bible. In fact, I have better morals than pretty much anyone in the bible.
As for creation, what are you defining as creation?
@nadir-finally i hear my thoughts and my opinions put in the form of words
THIS IS TOO EXACLTY WHAT I FEEL
i am an athiest too hence i'd rather live in a world without religion
I understand the "concept of religion and even the need for it(I too, at times, feel as if someone magically does for me or help me cope with a situation) " but i don't believe in "religion" at all
I can't understand how literate people educated people can believe in religion
I too once believed in god when i was little when i did not know better but education and science has enlightened me
My mum and my entire family is very religious and me being an atheist just amazes them in so many level
BUT what amazes me is how can people believe in god!
I know i have some strong opinions but that's just who I am
I'm glad someone brought this topic out...
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Vector Calculus (other topics)The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ray Kurzweil (other topics)Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
On the other hand, organized religion has been one of the largest detriments to the growth of society. The Crusades, papal feudalism and the Jihad are just the most famous cases known to the west, but there are thousands more. When dealing with any form of organized religion, one has to wade through a history of countless genocides, pointless wars, "purging" and corruption. As the saying goes, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." There is no way that one person, or group of people, can be responsible for the souls of men and women without become a proverbial demon.
Both science and religion have positive sides, and anyone who ignores it is merely seeking out some form of personal vendetta. Science can do many wonders, where religion teaches compassion, love and forgiveness.
The question becomes; how much of the flaws of science or religion is caused by the flaws of men? There are attributes, such as greed, that transcend above religion, and show themselves in other parts of culture.
While history has shown that we can live without science. I do not believe that society can survive without some form of religion. I cannot think of any time in history besides modern times where Atheism has been wide spread, and even today, I believe that Atheism is becoming something of a fad. It will move on. But even with the growing Atheism, religion still dominates the world.
This is why I believe that the world, if not humanity, would be better off without science.