The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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OMF, Book 1, Chap. 05-07
Mod
Linda
Thank you for this link. A very interesting read. I really enjoy reading and learning all the peripheral details I can that surround a novel.
Kim wrote: ""Here you are again, "repeated Mr. Wegg, musing. "And what are you now?"Chapter 5
James Mahoney
Household Edition 1875
Commentary:
"In chapter 5, "Boffin's Bower," the dour, one-legged street..."
Mahoney's depiction seems so serious, both Wegg and Boffin have a severity to their features I would not expect. Of course this may be due to the medium utilizing the bold lines of the composite wood-block engraving, with particularly dramatic effect in the Household Edition half. Mahoney has aged Wegg as well, or is Wegg much older than I thought?
Darley's drawing is more of what I visualized for the characters.
Now, moving down to the scene depicting both Charley and Lizzie; well, he's much younger than I imagined, and her appearance is well put together for her station in life. Charley's pudgy derrière makes him more child-like compared to the adolescent I expected, and Lizzie looks more like a lady than the bohemian I thought her to be.
Kim wrote: "Mr. and Mrs. BoffinChapter 5
Sol Eytinge Jr.
1870 Household Edition
Text Illustrated:
"Having received his literary friend with great cordiality, he conducted him to the interior of the Bower..."
I was looking forward to seeing a stout lady of a rubicund and cheerful aspect, dressed (to Mr Wegg’s consternation) in a low evening-dress of sable satin, and a large black velvet hat and feathers... Mrs. Boffin appears to be as happy as a clam. She's cute.
Mod
Chapter 5
Felix O. C. Darley
Household Edition 1866
Commentary:
One of the most memorable meetings in nineteenth-century British literature is involved in Noddy B..."
I really enjoyed the Felix Darley "Mr Boffin engages Mr. Wegg. To me, it comes closest to the Dickens description. In the background flutter the tracts and songs. Rather like the flags used on ships to signal each other. The clothing, the umbrella, the postures of the two men all seem perfect to me. If a man's house is his castle then Silas Wegg's street corner is his domain.
Mod
Chapter 7
Marcus Stone
Text Illustrated:
"At this moment the greasy door is violently pushed inward, and a boy follows it, who says, after having..."
Now this is a great illustration. The commentary notes that Stone visited the store more than once. I wonder how close this is to what Willis's store was really like. Oh, for a photograph!
I am accustomed to our friend Phiz. I cannot help but wonder if there are many "hidden" codes in the illustrations. Must take a longer look.
The thought did occur to me this morning: majoring in English Literature, four year degree, I don't recall a single mention of OMF by any professor ever.Just an observation 35 years hence.
Mod
And we'll row it, gently up the stream!
As to Hitchcock, he is one of my all-time favourites: There may be some funny over-doing of Freudian theories in some of his films, but then there is his brilliant sense of humour, his deft hand at creating suspense and at creating unforgettable images, and this makes him live on. Although many of my young teachers have never watched one of his movies, strange to say.
Mod
Linda,
I can imagine how you feel about taxidermy (although it's a cool word), because when I was a wee child, one of my grand-uncle's had an old, sombre house, and the entrance hall was stuffed with stuffed animals - stoats, martens, owls, falcons, hawks, squirrels, capercaillies, you name them -, who glared at me with their beady eyes and seemed to lurk under a patina of dust, abiding their time. It was terrible, and whenever I watch Psycho, those mounted animals are much more frightening to me than the shower scene.
Mod
A wooden leg, a wooden leg ... did not Mrs. Gamp's late husband have a wooden leg, too? Strangely, even the name Silas Wegg sounds like "wooden leg", somehow.
Mod
What a wealth of illustrations! Nevertheless, most of them did not really convince me, e.g. because they make the Boffins look like a couple of marshmellow-men, or Lizzie like some sort of Mrs. Joe, or they simply fail to give me an adequate idea of Mr. Wegg. Marcus Stone fares best in my eyes so far because his illustrations are full of detail - just look at Mr. Venus's shop! - and they bring up a memory of my favourite illustrator, Phiz.
Mod
What a wealth of illustrations! Nevertheless, most of them did not really convince me, e.g. because they make the Boffins look like a couple of marshmellow-men, or Lizzie like some sort of Mr..."
Yes. Three cheers for Hablot K Browne.
Tristram wrote: "did not Mrs. Gamp's late husband have a wooden leg, too? .."Yep, and there was a gent in The Pickwick Papers who used to buy second hand wooden legs. Wegg - a contraction of wooden and leg, good spot Tristram!
Ami, you are so right about the twig that pierced 'Cock Robin'. That really creeped me out. I had to talk very severely to myself in order to accept some sort of rationale behind it. Oh yes, I convinced myself that the heat of the fire would destroy any bacteria from the dead bird. I even went so far as to tell myself that it was ok as people eat all sorts of birds so it wasn't as though it was poisonous.I like the knife being thrown in for good measure, Peter. Whether you intended it humorously or not, the symbolism of the knife, with the fetching of the knife from your dishwasher, has stamped a picture indelibly on my mind. Tristram, The Simpsons' knife motif is very funny. Whether or not Dickens intended it I am now alert to any possible appearances of a knife big, small or indifferent!
James Mahoney
Household Edition 1875
Commentary:
"In chapter 5, "Boffin's Bower," the dour, one-legged street..."
I don't like this one. Both Wegg and Boffin look surly.
I found some bits of these chapters to be funny, even very funny. I liked the sparring between Wegg and Boffin. Wegg obviously has the edge over Mr Noddy Boffin where sharpness of mind is concerned. I loved the typical Dickens humour where Boffin is disappointed that Wegg doesn't know the name of the book(s) that he has procured. It is just this nonsensical humour that tickles my funny bone! One bit where I was in kinks of laughter was when listening to the audio, I'm trying to read the book as well, I heard the brilliant David Timson narrate the poem that Wegg recites for Boffin. David Timson was my older son's voice teacher at RADA and I knew from that that he also trains professionals to improve their readings and voice-overs. The bit to which I refer is where Wegg intersperses his recitation with "Mr Boffin" and "Sir". I have read it 'normally' and all I can hear is Mr Timson's voice. I do think that this is stand-alone funny but the narration cracks me up every time. And yes, I have listened to it more than once!
There is something intrinsically funny about a 'wooden' leg. When I was a child we had some unusual characters in my town. One story, apparently not apocryphal, is told of two elderly men, one of whom had a wooden leg, whiling the night away drinking prolific amounts and telling stories. The hours ticked by and the alcohol warmed them physically and mentally. The early hours of the morning arrived and they were still talking but mostly drinking. They had a fire which was by now very low and it dawned on them that they were very cold and there was no more fuel. So what do you do when a fire is dying out for lack of kindling? You put your wooden leg on it of course!
" Chapter 5 titled, Boffin's Bower..."Now those of you who were befuddled when I said I suggested the name "Noddy Boffin" for my daughter's cat will, perhaps, think me a little less peculiar! I love the Boffins - they are so simple and good-natured.
I, too, like Silas Wegg -- in the same way I liked Smallweed in Bleak House. We can be pretty sure he's an awful person, but he's interesting and entertaining, too.
My new favorite Dickens line? On the hob, a kettle steamed; on the hearth, a cat reposed. I'll have to add that to my always growing list. :-)
"Chapter 6 is titled "Cut Adrift" and we are now in the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters..."Miss Potterson has the gift of being a no-nonsense person whom people tend to obey, even if they aren't sure why. Of course, that may well be why she's "Miss Potterson" instead of "Mrs. Somebody Else". But it seems obvious to me that she's a kind woman with a tough veneer (allusion intended).
Someone guessed that we'll see Charley again. Of that, I have no doubt. It will be interesting to see what he makes of this opportunity. It concerns me that he seems to run hot and cold - calling Lizzie selfish one moment, then apologizing and hugging her the next. I'm reminded of another brother in a Sketch, I think, but I can't quite put my finger on it just now.
This was an interesting passage, and one that wouldn't have been included if it wasn't foreshadowing something. We should keep it in mind as we go along:
"If I can get some in no other way, I will ask a little help of those two gentlemen who came here that night.'
'I say!' cried her brother, quickly. 'Don't you have it of that chap that took hold of me by the chin! Don't you have it of that Wrayburn one!'
Perhaps a slight additional tinge of red flushed up into her face and brow, as with a nod she laid a hand upon his lips to keep him silently attentive.
Why would Lizzie think to go to two virtual strangers for money? And why did Charley take such a dislike to Wrayburn? But Lizzie's blush is perhaps most telling of all, and lets us know that Wrayburn will be back.
Kim, you drew my attention to the word 'snug' in regard to the pub. I think that you understood it as a negative thing and when I read it again I realised that Dickens used it with a negative insinuation meaning 'cramped'. When I first read it I felt warmly about this 'inn'. The word in the first instance suggests 'coziness', 'warmth' and 'comfort' to me. Here Dickens is being his usual tongue-in-cheek self.
"The last chapter this installment is Chapter 7 titled, "Mr. Wegg Looks After Himself". ..."For some reason, I don't think I was quite as disturbed by the description of Venus's shop as some of you seemed to be. I think of him as being not only a taxidermist, but that he probably provides skeletons to doctors, hospitals, and medical schools. It's not pretty, but it's honorable in its way.
What I wonder about (unless I missed it?) is how Wegg lost his leg (and is it a coincidence that that rhymes?). Sounds like it was deformed and removed in a hospital. That raises all sorts of questions for me, but I don't know that it's something Dickens will pursue. Seems like it might become pertinent as we learn more about the characters, though.
I wondered why Dickens, who chooses his characters' names so purposefully, would choose the name Venus for a taxidermist. But it came clear when we learned that Venus is lovelorn. I hope he will have a happy ending with his chosen one. Obviously, he's a romantic at heart!
I think that it would be quite a natural thing to wish not to be separated from one's limb prematurely. Here, Mr Venus's holding on to the leg (not literally of course :p) seems rather cruel. It seems natural that Silas Wegg ought to have a right to his own body part, but the law must have been otherwise. Dealing in exhuming bodies for profit or otherwise was a criminal offence but it would appear that other business involving trade in limbs was not so strictly controlled. I am assuming here that this is not fantasy on Dickens's part! Of course, illegal trading in body parts persists nowadays. It seems that where filthy lucre is concerned nothing is off-limits.
Hilary wrote: "I found some bits of these chapters to be funny, even very funny. I liked the sparring between Wegg and Boffin. Wegg obviously has the edge over Mr Noddy Boffin where sharpness of mind is concerned..."I love these scenes, too, Hilary. And I'm alternating between Nook, hard copy, and Timson's audio reading. He does an excellent job.
Mary Lou wrote: "Hilary wrote: "I found some bits of these chapters to be funny, even very funny. I liked the sparring between Wegg and Boffin. Wegg obviously has the edge over Mr Noddy Boffin where sharpness of mi..."I'm pretty much doing the same thing, except I no longer have my paperback copy of OMF.
I use my Nook for the reading and then link it to youtube for the listening. I have to look at the youtube link. I don't know the ownership of it, but the narrator is female.
John, could you possibly download a copy unto your Nook? I only know how the Kindle works though. Perhaps you could get a cheap or free copy!
Oh I'm so glad you have David Timson, Mary Lou. He is such a fan of Dickens and I think it comes across brilliantly.
Hilary wrote: "John, could you possibly download a copy unto your Nook? I only know how the Kindle works though. Perhaps you could get a cheap or free copy!"Thanks Hilary. There is a free audiobook on youtube with the entire OMF. I have not downloaded it, but I simply go to youtube via a Wifi connection on my Nook and listen to it there. Here is the link if anyone is interested. It is an excellent version to listen to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdsZ6...
That's good to know, John. The Timson recording on CD is working for me for this book, but there are others I haven't been able to find on CD (most recently Dombey), and I never thought to check youtube. I'll keep it in mind for future reference.
Mary Lou wrote: "That's good to know, John. The Timson recording on CD is working for me for this book, but there are others I haven't been able to find on CD (most recently Dombey), and I never thought to check yo..."I have to say Mary Lou that it has been great for OMF. Wherever I stop listening gets saved by the Nook, so when I restart my listening, it begins where I left off. It has been a help to sit back and listen to a chapter after reading it.
Mod
Hear, hear!
Mod
That is definitely an invaluable adavantage a wooden leg has over a non-wooden one!
Mod
To be honest, Mary Lou, I found that detail a bit contrived: Why should Lizzie even think of asking one of the two men for help? After all, it was the first time she ever laid eyes on them, and she has no reason to suppose that they would be ready to help her. I thought this was one of Dickens's more awkward ways of tying his various characters together, preparing us for things to come. As to why Charley took umbrage at the mention of Eugene, it probably was because Eugene grabbed him by the chin and gave him a dark look when he talked about his own sister in a rather slighting and patronizing way. Although, coming to think of it, I don't know why Eugene should have taken offense at Charley's words, since Eugene had not seen Lizzie at the time.
Mod
For some reason, I don't think I was quite as disturbed by the description of Venus's shop as some of ..."
Someone mentioned that Venus was based on a real-life taxidermist named Willis, and there is some slight similarity between those names. Maybe, that's it?
The only thing we've learned so far about how Silas lost his leg was that there was an accident. I can't remember if we'll ever get any particulars as to the accident.
Yes, Tristram, I agree that Stone wins the illustrator game. In Mr Venus's shop he even has the two frogs having a sword fight!
Thank you for the link, John. It's Mil Nicholson! She is one of the really good readers on Librivox. Spoilt for choice on this one ...
Tristram, I suppose that it does save on the fuel bills.
Hilary wrote: "Ami, you are so right about the twig that pierced 'Cock Robin'. That really creeped me out. I had to talk very severely to myself in order to accept some sort of rationale behind it. Oh yes, I conv..."Oh, goodness, Hillary. LOL! I think I was stuck in a state of shock upon reading about the arrow doubling as a roasting skewer, didn't even bother trying to rationalize it...I just wanted it to be over, quickly. Ugh.
I love reading your posts...So happy you're reading this one too with me. :)
What did you think of Ariel's dinglehopper scene I posted for you, I do hope you got a chuckle out of it! :P
Tristram wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Why would Lizzie think to go to two virtual strangers for money? And why did Charley take such a dislike to Wrayburn? But Lizzie's blush is perhaps most telling of all, and lets us..."Nice! Contrived, huh? Yet another detail I will think about as I progress. The list keeps growing, Tristram! :)
Mod
In my Penguin notes I read that the two frogs fighting a duel are not an invention of Dickens's himself but that a little statuette showing that motive was among the things Dickens loved to have on his writing desk, for him to rest his eyes on, when he was writing.
Sorry - I can't find the original post (made by Tristram, I think), but I find it incredibly sad that there's anyone out there over the age of 18 or so who's never seen a Hitchcock movie. Having said that, though, one of my big parenting regrets was misjudging my daughter's maturity (something too many parents do in different ways, I think), and taking her to see Psycho and The Birds when she was really too young to see them. She told me later that The Birds didn't bother her much, but she had trouble taking showers for weeks afterwards. I'd forgotten all the stuffed birds in Psycho. Hitch used taxidermy to great effect in another of his movies, The Man Who Knew Too Much with Jimmy Stewart and Doris Day. (If you haven't seen it, there is an excellent, incredibly suspenseful scene with Day in the Royal Albert Hall that should be studied by film students everywhere.)
Now that we're talking about Hitch and Dickens, it's really quite surprising that he never did a movie adaptation of any of Dickens novels. OMF would have been very interesting in his hands.
Tristram wrote: "I read that the two frogs fighting a duel are not an invention of Dickens's himself but that a little statuette showing that motive was among the things Dickens loved to have on his writing desk, for him to rest his eyes on, when he was writing...."
I love this. Everyone should have just a little sense of whimsy (and my family would say some of us have crossed that fine line from whimsical to peculiar!). I wonder what happened to the original -- I'd love to see it!
Mary LouIf you enter dueling frogs, you might be able to find Dickens'. Here's a link to one from Victorian times:
http://www.acaseofcuriosities.com/pag...
LindaH wrote: "Mary LouIf you enter dueling frogs, you might be able to find Dickens'. Here's a link to one from Victorian times:
http://www.acaseofcuriosities.com/pag..."
Hahahaha! Silly me - I was thinking of statues, not real, stuffed, and graphically portrayed frogs. That's not whimsical, it's revolting! Why it didn't occur to me that a taxidermist would have something like this rather than a Kenneth Grahame-worthy figurine, I don't know. Ick.
I don't know if this is the best characterization or analogy, but there's this "Forrest Gump" quality to Silas Wegg. I was just reminded of it in a way; he's traveling along in the beginning of Chapter 7 and meets up with a shop owner.
I keep envisioning a guy who gets around in this novel, which strikes me as Dickensian give his wooden leg.
Oh Ami, that is such a lovely thing to say! Thank you so much! I haven't seen your Ariel comment. I presume it's in The Little Mermaid thread. I still haven't finished it :(. I shall go a-hunting!
I meant to throw in a little anecdote concerning a leg. During World War II one of my uncles was in the medical corp of the Royal Navy. There was an explosion right before his eyes which claimed casualties. He witnessed one man who, in the moment after his leg was blown off, was swimming with the utmost determination to salvage his leg from the sea. The connection to one's limbs is visceral.
Deary me, Mary Lou, after I watched the two Hitchcocks you mentioned I was neither a champion of birds nor showers. The shower scene is still with me, especially where the shower is in the bath! All I need to add to complete the scene is a plastic shower curtain and some 'black' liquid forming pools as it swirls away down the plug hole. Of course all of this unfolds while a chilling, intermittent, high-pitched, scream-like note perfects the picture. After reading The Birds in the recent past I have become jumpy around seagulls and have only just begun to shower again. :p. :D
Yes John, it's admirable how Mr Wegg gets around. He doesn't allow the wooden leg to disable him. Credit where it's due.
Ooh the frogs, Linda and Mary Lou, the frogs. Nasty dreams tonight I believe ...
Hilary wrote: "Oh Ami, that is such a lovely thing to say! Thank you so much! I haven't seen your Ariel comment. I presume it's in The Little Mermaid thread. I still haven't finished it :(. I shall go a-hunting!"
No need to hunt it's on this page in our first thread.... message 94. ;)
The Old Curiosity Club
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Jen Campbell (other topics)
Okay. Well. I'm plodding.