The Old Curiosity Club discussion
Our Mutual Friend
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OMF, Book 1, Chap. 05-07
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So you think an intellectual (relative, at least, to his audience) should sell himself cheap? It's the old argument that college professors have such great jobs that they should be happy to work for pittances.
Hilary wrote: "Yes John, it's admirable how Mr Wegg gets around. He doesn't allow the wooden leg to disable him. Credit where it's due."I think that's why Boffin repeats that he's "a literary man with a wooden leg" -- I think that's his way of giving Wegg credit for rising above his physical challenges and accomplishing something worthwhile, rather than being a beggar.
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Not his fault. Boffin basically pushes these things on him (he's a hospitable man), but Wegg doesn't ask for any drink or food. And it would be rude to refuse when it's offered. So what you fault him for I consider good manners to an indulgent host.
Sorry Ami, I can't find your message. The numbers don't appear on the iPhone. I shall try again later as I really want to see it! :-)
Ami, phew, at last. Eureka! It was in my verses 1 to 4 thread. That's hilarious! Good 😊 shout! Spot on the money and how many other clichés can I use?! :D. Thanks Ami!
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If you enter dueling frogs, you might be able to find Dickens'. Here's a link to one from Victorian times:
http://www.acaseofcuriosities.com/pag..."
H..."
I, too, had a kind of chinaware ensemble in mind, but those stuffed frogs are downright disgusting. I cannot imagine anyone apart from Norman Bates who would put them up for decoration. Tststs, those Victorians.
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Hitchcock was very good at making films based on Daphne du Maurier's novels even though he himself was not very fond of his own two films "Rebecca" and "Jamaica Inn". The first, he said, was too melodramatic and had too little humour in it - thanks to David Selznick -, whereas the latter was spoilt for Hitchcock because of what he saw as Charles Laughton's histrionics. I don't share Hitch's harsh judgment on these films, and would rather name "The Paradin Case" as his least intriguing film. Needless to say, Hitchcock liked the film.
I don't know, though, if Hitch would have done justice to Dickens although OMF is dark enough to offer Hitch a lot of opportunities, and then I think Hitch and Dickens would have got on very well in terms of humour.
By the way, I think that the shower scene in "Psycho" was preceded by another scene that must have been shocking to audiences at that time: We see, for the first time since the introduction of the Hays Code, a toilet in full frame.
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I also think that it was a sensible thing for Wegg to try and improve the terms on which he was supposed to sell his time and erudition - the latter being especially scarce, and therefore valuable - to Boffin. And I also like the way he did it, by saying that he never bargains and then making quite a bargain.
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Ach, Mary Lou, don't get me started on Hitchcock! He's one of my favourite directors, and like you, I started very early to give my son an impression of his wonderful films, although I chose "Rear Window" and "North by North-West". I found "The Birds" too scary, myself ;-)
I remember enjoying 'Rear Window' but I haven't seen 'North by North-west'. I really think that you're right, Tristram, about the similarities in humour between Dickens and Hitchcock. I didn't know that he'd made films out of other de Maurier as well as 'The Birds'. Shame he didn't like them. :(
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G.K. Chesterton disagrees with you. Perhaps it is too early to discuss this, but you brought it up here, so I'll just note Chesterton's disagreement, and try to remember to revisit it at the end of the book.
Chesterton opens his commentary on OMF with this:
"OUR MUTUAL FRIEND marks a happy return to the earlier manner of Dickens at the end of Dickens's life. One might call it a sort of Indian summer of his farce. "
The whole commentary contains spoilers, so those who don't know the book and don't want to encounter spoilers shouldn't read it yet. But for those who want to check out his comment now, here it is:
https://omf.ucsc.edu/scholarship/bibl...
I link to it just for verifiability. But let's hold off on continued discussion of this question of new Dickens vs. renewed Dickens until the end of our reading.
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It didn't surprise me. I assume that at the time the leg was amputated he wasn't in much of a condition to ask for it back, and probably didn't want it in its original condition, flesh and all, but now it's been cleaned and is a nice healthy bone, it makes perfect sense to me that he would rather have it with him than have it out somewhere where some ghoul or medical student is poring over it.
One does wonder, though, what Venus means by a monstrosity, and whether there was some deformity in it which was the reason it was cut off in the first place. And will we ever find out?
Oh, I also agree with Tristram about Wegg and Venus. And my appreciation of Wegg is endorsed by Tristram being on my side and a certain other being on the other. When that happens, I know I'm in the right.
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What is a one-sided fellow?
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A question worth thinking about as we progress.
Everyman wrote: ""The words referred to a broad, round-shouldered, one-sided old fellow in mourning, "What is a one-sided fellow?"
Somebody who is one dimensional...As in, what you see, is what you get?
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Some of the illustrations make the wooden leg look like a matchstick, not a leg that could support a full grown man over many years. And the basket at the top -- no woodworker ever made that. And I speak as a woodworker.
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You can download it in Nook format from gutenberg.org. As with most classics. Gutenberg offers their books in several formats, including kindle and nook.
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Of all the people I would choose to agree with it isn't you. Or you.
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What a wealth of illustrations! Nevertheless, most of them did not really convince me, e.g. because they make the Boffins look like a couple of marshmellow-men, or Lizzie like some sort of Mr..."
Maybe you would prefer this:
Commentary:
In Kyd's sequence of fifty cards, fully 13 or over 25% concern a single novel, The Pickwick Papers, attesting to the enduring popularity of the picaresque comic novel and also suggesting that the later, darker novels such as Our Mutual Friend (two characters: Silas Wegg and Rogue Riderhood) and The Mystery of Edwin Drood (no characters depicted) offered little for the caricaturist, the only late characters in the series being the singularly unpleasant and physically odd Silas Wegg and the rough waterman Rogue Riderhood from Our Mutual Friend, and Turveydrop, Jo, Bucket, and Chadband from Bleak House. The popular taste was clearly still towards the earlier farce and character comedy of Dickens.
Although Kyd's representations of the two characters from Our Mutual Friend are largely based on the original serial illustrations by Marcus Stone, the modeling of the figures is suggestive of those of the Dickens illustrator James Mahoney for the Household Edition volume 9 (1875). The anomaly, of course, is that Kyd should elect to depict minor figures from the first Dickens novel such as the Dingley Dell cricketers Dumkins and Luffey and the minor antagonist Major Bagstock in Dombey and Son, but should omit significant characters from such later, still-much-read novels as A Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations. Five of the fifty cards or 10% of the series come from the cast of The Adventures of Oliver Twist; or, The Parish Boy's Progress (1837-39): Oliver himself, asking for more; Fagin with his toasting fork, from the scene in which he prepares dinner for his crew; Sikes holding a beer-mug, and the Artful Dodger in an oversized adult topcoat and crushed top-hat, as he appeared at his trial. Surprisingly, some of the other significant characters, including Nancy and Rose Maylie, are not among the first set of fifty characters, in which Kyd exhibits a strong male bias, as he realizes only seven female characters: only the beloved Nell, the abrasive Sally Brass, and the quirky Marchioness from The Old Curiosity Shop, Sairey Gamp from Martin Chuzzlewit, Aunt Betsey Trotwood from David Copperfield, the burly Mrs. McStinger from Dombey and Son, and the awkward Fanny Squeers from Nicholas Nickleby appear in the essentially comic cavalcade.
......Since these major Dickens characters (Lizzie, Gaffer, Mr. and Mrs. Boffin, Bella Wilfer) had plenty to offer the illustrator, one must assume that Kyd fashioned his short list according to the popular taste. However, he does include from his books the image of the spiteful Wegg, the one-legged street vendor whom Boffin hires to read to him, and Thames waterman, formerly Gaffer Hexam's partner, Roger ("Rogue") Riderhood.
The model for Kyd's interpretation of Silas Wegg is Marcus Stone's original image. However, Kyd has also utilized Mahoney's illustrations of the serio-comic figure, typically "Dickensian" in his peculiar obsession with his lost leg. In "Here you are again," repeated Mr. Wegg, musing. "And what are you now?" (Book One, "The Cup and the Lip," Chapter 5) and "You're casting your eye round the shop, Mr. Wegg. Let me show you a light" (Book One, Chapter 8), set in the shop of the taxidermist, Mr. Venus, Kyd found useful images, but elected to give his Wegg a far more surly, suspicious facial expression, and greater animation than the Mahoney figure in such illustrations as Mr. Wegg preparing a grindstone for Mr. Boffin's nose.....
Rogue Riderhood is distinguished by squinting leer and sodden, old fur hat from his first appearance in the novel, in Miss Abbey Potterson's waterside tavern, The Three Jolly Fellowship Porters.
The model for Kyd's interpretation are several of Marcus Stone's original serial images, specifically, the June 1864 installment's At the Bar (Book One, and "The Cup and the Lip," Chapter 6, "Cut Adrift"). These, however, would not have given Kyd many details on which to base an illustration. Riderhood is shiftless, devious, and utterly untrustworthy. Moreover, even referring to Mahoney's Household Edition illustrations of the gruff, opportunistic blackmailer, Kyd would have had to invent many visual aspects of a character for whom Dickens does not provide a comprehensive verbal portrait — including suitable clothing.
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Oh yes, the beloved Nell, I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out. Although how I can read through the commentaries taking out spoilers and not notice the Little Nell comment I don't know.
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G.K. Chesterton disagrees with you. Perhaps it is too early to discuss this, but you brought it up here, so I'll just note Chesterto..."
We should definitely come back to that comment later on, Everyman! I hope we won't forget it.
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;-)
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This time I actually like Kyd's illustration, that of Wegg, at least. In my personal imagination there is some wood-ness about him, I'd picture him as rather lean and more on the shabby side.
I've just been sitting in the doctor's waiting room splitting my sides at chapter 5! There Noddy Boffin with his "diseased (deceased) governor", asking Silas Wegg:"‘How did you get your wooden leg?’
Mr Wegg replied, (tartly to this personal inquiry), ‘In an accident.’
‘Do you like it?’
‘Well! I haven’t got to keep it warm,’ Mr Wegg made answer, in a sort of desperation occasioned by the singularity of the question."
And this:
"You are provided with the needful implement—a book, sir?’
‘Bought him at a sale,’ said Mr Boffin. ‘Eight wollumes. Red and gold. Purple ribbon in every wollume, to keep the place where you leave off. Do you know him?’
‘The book’s name, sir?’ inquired Silas.
‘I thought you might have know’d him without it,’ said Mr Boffin slightly disappointed."
Then with the misremembering of "Roman Empire" as "Rooshan Empire" and all the consequent misunderstandings .... Oh my, I was like a limp rag when I finally went in to see the doctor! Sometimes I wonder why I ever bother reading anybody else - Dickens has such an eye for the absurd! I'll read the other two chapters before reading all your comments here, but couldn't resist sharing my delight at this ridiculous chapter!
Jean wrote: "‘The book’s name, sir?’ inquired Silas.‘I thought you might have know’d him without it,’ said Mr Boffin slightly disappointed...."
Boffin and Wegg are a hoot, no doubt about it! The one passage you mentioned is played out in libraries everywhere on a daily basis: "Can you help me find a book?" "Sure. Can you tell me the title or author?" "I forget, but I remember the cover was blue."
Have you read Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops by Jen Campbell, Mary Lou? I think you'd find it a hoot!
Jean wrote: "Have you read Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops by Jen Campbell, Mary Lou? I think you'd find it a hoot!"My daughter works at Barnes & Noble and keeps me entertained with her stories of clueless customers. I never before realized what odd people are drawn to bookstores! I guess it's the "sit and read as long as you want" policy they have. Gives the oddballs a place to hang out.
Jean wrote: "Have you read Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops by Jen Campbell, Mary Lou? I think you'd find it a hoot!"I have, though I have to admit that I didn't enjoy it as I hoped I would. I reviewed it here on GR if you want to read it, but my main beef was that, taken in its entirety rather than in small doses, I found the tone snarky and condescending. :-(
Cindy - Libraries are the same way. We're in a public building where people can come and sit all day if they want. I'd say we have three main types of patrons: young mothers with preschoolers; retired bibliophiles; and homeless junkies. Frankly, I can't imagine why there hasn't been a successful TV show set in a library.
Mary Lou wrote: "my main beef was that, taken in its entirety rather than in small doses, I found the tone snarky and condescending. :-("I was a bit short of time, or I would have checked out whether you had read it! Interestingly, friends' reactions varied right across the board, from your hearty dislike to its opposite. I reviewed it too and gave it a middle rating, but did not bother with its sequel. I had begin to be suspicious of its authenticity. Mainly for me was the nostalgia factor, having worked in both bookshops and libraries in my time.
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My daughter works at Barnes & Noble an..."
This would be grist to my father's mills, actually, because when I was young, he did not like it very much to find me reading and reading in my spare time, and he even held, and still holds, the view that reading will make you end up a strange person. So if you pointed out to him that there are many oddballs in a bookshop, he would not draw the conclusion that the bookshop attracts strange people but that by remaining too long in the vicinity of books, you will become an oddball.
Boy, how often we used to have discussions on how to use your free time sensibly :-)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZki9...
Lizzie Hexam's saving up of money for her younger brother's education reminded me of several other young women in Dickens's novels. What about Amy Dorrit, scrimping and saving for all three other members of her family, and Louisa Gradgrind, trying her best to educate her dim-witted younger brother Tom. And of course poor poor Nell. I think Scrooge too had an older sister who tried very hard to fight for his continued education. All these young women seem to be either more virtuous than their brothers or parents, or more intelligent, or both. Yet they are all self-effacing, and pushing other's prospects rather than their own.
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Jean
Good insights. I too think Dickens's treatment of women is more complicated than just the standard "Angel in the House" dismissal.
We could add to your list Florence Dombey who helped her brother Paul by buying the textbooks he was using, learned the material herself, and then tutored him.
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After Hexam's death, however, the matter might look different.
Peter wrote: "We could add to your list Florence Dombey who helped her brother Paul by buying the textbooks he was using, learned the material herself, and then tutored him..."Thank you Peter!! I knew there was one instance just on the edge of my perception but I couldn't quite grasp it last night! That's the closest parallel of all :)
Tristram wrote: "Her brother Charley has a more practical outlook on Lizzie's behaviour ..."Yes, you've followed this thought further than I. I recognised that Charley was not as selfish and peevish as some of the others, and that he had quite a good close relationship with his sister. The implication isn't quite clear yet, I don't think. Perhaps he is not mature enough to know himself yet.
I do like the way that Dickens has broadly the same relationships between people, but when you examine them, they are all subtly different.
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Apart from that, it is somewhere said, by Charley himself, that Lizzie has always been their father's favourite. In a way, I can understand Charley's bitterness and lack of devotion to his father.
Another question just popped into my head: Is there any deeper meaning in Dickens giving this character his own name?
Tristram wrote: "Is there any deeper meaning in Dickens giving this character his own name? "Wow - great question, Tristram! I'll be reading Charley's scenes with a whole different mindset from this point on. We should definitely make this a discussion point when we get to the end of the book.
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Wow - great question, Tristram! I'll be reading Charley's scenes with a whole different mindset from t..."
I agree. Dickens seldom did anything without some purpose, and he certainly was conscious of how he assigned names. This is more true, I think, of surnames, but it would be a mistake not to consider Tristram's question seriously.
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Perhaps because she's the one willing to go out in the boat and help him. By role models, even in that day and age, it should have been Charley in the boat. Why wasn't he helping? What has he been doing to help the family? We don't see him doing much of anything except carrying a message to Lightwood. If, as it appears, Lizzie has taken on much of the wife/mother/working partner role, no wonder she's Hexham's favorite.
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On the other hand, Charley is no lazy-bone, like that Dorrit brother. He has a clear purpose in mind and puts his nose to the grindstone in order to achieve it. So I can understand why he does not want to sit in the boat with his father (both physically and figuratively). As to the question of what came first - his bad relationship with his father, or his father's favouring Lizzie -, it's probably the same as with the hen and the egg. Or maybe, we will find some further clues in the course of the story?
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On ..."
Tristram
You raise an interesting concept here. As we move towards the end of round one of our reading of Dickens perhaps a point of discussion could be how he portrays the brother-sister relationship. I would add to your list the relationship between Florence and Paul Dombey. In OMF as well as LD and DS it is the female character who acts as the early caretaker for the male figure, a brother. Is this merely Dickens showing the role of the Angel in the House? I would suggest it goes farther than that.
Dare I add in ... oh, my, how do I say this ... Little Nell? Certainly there again we have this apparent trope. Her grandfather is totally dependent upon her, as a little child would be to an older sister. :-))
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Thanks :-))
Tristram wrote: "Is there any deeper meaning in Dickens giving this character his own name? ..."Wow, I too will be bearing this in mind as I read through! I guess "Charles" has always been a popular English/French name, but perhaps there was a subliminal connection here.
I do wince when I come across people who are so anti-education and anti-learning. Sadly I've known some, and even had relatives like this. It does always seem to arise through envy, or a low self-image, or a bit of both, in my experience. Sad, but very damaging. I've also come across the opposite - people who have been determined to work hard and improve themselves, against all the odds :)
I'll be interested to see if Gaffer Hexam changes his attitude in the light of experience, or whether he becomes even more embittered.
Mod
I cannot help thinking those angelic sisters and daughters rather awkward characters on the whole - in terms of how they work as characters in a novel. Nell, Ruth, Florence, Esther, and now Lizzie ... they all seem to me like a conservative man's dream of a housewife, and then at the same time most of these conservative men, Dickens included, would suddenly have enough of their wives being so homely and nice and yield to the attractions of other women. These domestic angels in Dickens's novels are, and I'm just speaking for myself here, incredibly boring.
As to Charles Hexam, might it not be the case that there was a little bit of Dickens in him? After all, Dickens had to give up his chance of an education in order to work in the blacking factory when his family ran into debts, while his sisters were still at school; and Hexam is expected by his father to continue life without any kind of education.
Saying that, however, I would see no further parallels between Dickens and young Charley.
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I cannot help thinking those angelic sisters and daughters rather awkward characters on the whole - in terms of how they work as characters in a novel. Nell, Ruth, Florence, Esther, and no..."
Tristram
Yes. I have often wondered if Dickens was not creating on the page what he wished for in his own private, personal life. After his marriage to Catherine, as their early life together progressed, he found his young sister-in-law Mary to contain the perfect combination of characteristics and virtues Catherine seemed to fall short of exhibiting. Mary's death, as I'm sure you know, rocked Dickens's world and he never completely recovered.
I have recently read The Other Dickens: A Life of Catherine Hogarth which was very insightful regarding Dickens and Catherine.
You present interesting points concerning a possible link/connection/meaning that can be drawn from the name Charles. I like how you drew comparisons between Charley and author Charles, but, like you, think there was not a conscious desire to connect or create anything significant.
The Old Curiosity Club
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The Other Dickens: A Life of Catherine Hogarth (other topics)Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops (other topics)
Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops (other topics)
Weird Things Customers Say in Bookshops (other topics)
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Jen Campbell (other topics)Jen Campbell (other topics)
Jen Campbell (other topics)
Jen Campbell (other topics)
Yes, in my enthusiasm to share movies I love with my kid, I probably scarred her for life! She likes Hitchcock now, though. But she prefers Rope and Rear Window, both of which are less graphic.