2017 Proust Challenge, Book 2: Within a Budding Grove (February 15th to March 31st)

[Gill]

Here's the thread for Book 2, Within a Budding Grove. I won't be reading this one, but will follow your comments with interest!

[Dianne]

I'll be reading! I am starting this weekend, after I finish Swann's Way.

[LauraT]

I'll start in 10 days more or less!

[Pink]

After a rocky start with the first book, I'll somewhat apprehensively be reading this towards the end of Feb, or into March.

[Dianne]

You can do it pink!

[Leslie]

I will start in a week or so.

Just a reminder that while people are welcome to read and comment here any time, our "official" read a long will be from 15 Feb. to March 31.

[Pink]

Yep that's the idea Dianne! Thanks for encouragement, I might need it :)

[Leslie]

Pink wrote: "Yep that's the idea Dianne! Thanks for encouragement, I might need it :)"

Are you reading or listening to this one Pink?

[Petra]

I'm glad you're continuing, Pink.

I'll be starting soon, too. Probably this weekend or sometime next week.

[Pink]

I'll be reading. I bought the kindle bind up of all 7? books, but then switched to an audiobook whispersync deal halfway through the first book, as I wasn't feeling inspired to pick up the text. Unfortunately I found listening worse, as I drifted off too much. Now I'll be sticking to my kindle book.

[Leslie]

7 is the full series - that is great getting an omnibus like that.

[Pink]

Yes and all for 99p!

[Petra]

I just started today.
Seems that Proust is spinning the wheel and showing us other sides of our characters.
In the first couple of pages, we get a different view of Swann and Dr. Collard.
These different views seem to solidify our earlier discussion about people having many sides but we usually only know one or two of these sides and that's enough for us to think we know someone.

I have to say that I'm not happy that Swann has dumbed himself down to fit into Odette's world. But perhaps this is just the narrator's view of things.

[Joan]

Do you think the names Odette & Swann are a play on Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake? Odette was the princess who was turned into a swan queen. Odile was the evil one.

[Petra]

I don't know, Joan. The names do seem to be borrowed from it and there is maybe a theme of being put into a group and ostracized from some groups. But I'm not sure whether Swan Lake and Odette/Swann are related.
Something to ponder as we read along.

[Joan]

The translation I am reading is titled In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower, which sounds sort of salacious to me.

[Petra]

LOL! It does, a little bit.

[Joan]

Petra wrote: "I don't know, Joan. The names do seem to be borrowed from it and there is maybe a theme of being put into a group and ostracized from some groups. But I'm not sure whether Swan Lake and Odette/Swan..."
Hmm, I never before thought about the ostracizing side of Swan Lake.
To me the ballet is about a love affair that goes very wrong.
Like Swann the Prince is a bon vivant mostly concerned with socializing & evading marriage until he falls in love with the swan queen Odette. (view spoiler)[ and then the Prince ends up with an evil look alike which, for me, mirrors Odettes shift from adoring minx to controlling viper (hide spoiler)]

[Petra]

In that sense we're all a bit like the Prince and Odette. I didn't want to marry until I met my husband. I was quite happy to remain single until then. I think it's only Love that makes us want to give up the freedom of a single life.
I suppose at one time, there was the economic side to consider as well but that would be more Odette's side; not Swann's. He had no economical reason for marrying Odette and all the social reasons not to marry her, at least from what we know now.

[Joan]

Who do you see as the ostracizers in Swan Lake? The Prince's hunting buddies? Or his mom?

[Joan]

The social jockeying described in the first pages reminds me of academia as described by C.P. Snow in The Masters

[Petra]

Joan wrote: "Who do you see as the ostracizers in Swan Lake? The Prince's hunting buddies? Or his mom?"

I don't know the story well but the Princess, for one. The curse ostracizes her by confining her to the lake and away from her family/friends in the castle. Even the Prince couldn't bring her back to the fold.

On the other hand.... if Swann declared his love for Odette, who is actually Odile, and then marries, the analogy may work....we'll have to wait and see whether Odette is Odile.

But, I'm not sure that Proust intended to write a parallel to any other work. He may be ruminating on time and memory. That's the impression I got from Swann's Way.

[Joan]

That's the beauty of classics, we all find something a little different in the story. I hadn't thought of Odette's separation from family & friends. Swan Lake has beautiful music, the choreography varies a lot though.

[Greg]

Can anyone advise me: how connected are the books? Curious as to whether I could join at book 2 and start there or if I should really read book 1 first?

[Petra]

I'm not sure if I can answer, Greg.
So far, the characters from Swann's Way return in Within a Budding Grove. Since the story seems to follow life, if you started at Within A Budding Grove, it would be like meeting people at a different stage of life than those of us who met them in Swann's Way. That may not make a difference once you get to know the characters. ....if that all makes sense.

[Petra]

Joan wrote: "That's the beauty of classics, we all find something a little different in the story. I hadn't thought of Odette's separation from family & friends. Swan Lake has beautiful music, the choreography ..."

Agreed. There's always "the other side", isn't there?
Another thing I always find interesting in these sorts of stories is the deception itself.
In essence, the Prince vowed his love to Odette. That vow came from his heart and soul for Odette and he spoke it to a body that was made to look like Odette. Therefore, his vow was for Odette in every way......yet because of a deception, the vow was spoken to another person, which somehow makes a heartfelt vow to one's true love applicable to someone one who lies and cheats.
So, in these tales, who you speak the vow to is more important than the essence and true meaning of the vow.
It's a twist I understand being made but one that takes something away from a vow made from the depths of a soul.

[Joan]

Wow Petra, now I can't wait to see the ballet again. Your comment about the vow changes it from a story I can watch to one I can personalize.

[Petra]

If everything were equal, the curse would have been broken when the vow was spoken, letting Odette enter the castle and live happily ever after with her prince.

However, Life isn't fair or equal and things happen. Maybe that's an angle we can take into Swann's story? We don't know yet how the two got together. Maybe deception is part of it and Odette is truly Odile? I hope we find out.

[Liz M]

Greg wrote: "Can anyone advise me: how connected are the books? Curious as to whether I could join at book 2 and start there or if I should really read book 1 first?"

Well, the books are technically a single novel and many of the themes/images/memories introduced in the first two sections of Swann's Way are repeated and referenced often in the later volumes. I would definitely read Combrey and Swann in Love from the first volume and Balbec in the second volume and maybe skip the other sections if you want to get "caught up". (This was recommended as a "cliff notes" version of Proust in a reference book I read alongside volumes 3-7 of Proust last year).

[Raul]

Began reading it yesterday.

[Joan]

I'm currently reading the dinner with M. de Norpois
I'm puzzled about (view spoiler)[ is Proust being satirical do you think in his description of M. de Noirpois - he seems to talk and talk without actually saying anything but using lots of platitudes. (hide spoiler)]
I did like getting a different view of (view spoiler)[ Swann and Odette (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Thanks for the tips on book order Liz and Petra!

[Joan]

QUESTION for someone reading this in French or fluent in French:
I'm 13% done, page 79 in my edition, and Marcel mentions that a particular person pronounces afternoon without the middle syllable, as aft noon .
So I wondering what the text reads in French. Is this a literal translation or figurative?
Am I correct that the phrases in French are apres midi, and thus ap midi or perhaps apres di?

I get hung up on the darndest things.

[Joan]

I just can't stop thinking about wormholes in spacetime, as in
About 25% into the book.
(view spoiler)[ was Proust playing with the idea of time as a fourth dimension that we can move through forward and backward? And, are Swann and Marcel different versions of the same person? (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Just finishing part 1 At Mme Swann's
(view spoiler)[ What a perfect description of the blues, I can almost hear Ella Fitzgerald singing "Solitude".
"During these periods when sorrow, though already beginning to wane, still persists, there is a difference between the mode of sorrow caused by the obsessive thought of the loved one and the sorrow brought back to mind by certain memories..." p 203 (hide spoiler)]

[Liz M]

Joan wrote: "I'm currently reading the dinner with M. de Norpois
I'm puzzled about [spoilers removed]]"

Yes, I believe what is under spoiler tags is correct. Apparently Proust is supposed to be funny, but I am not good with satire so I had to trust my side-read guides were correct about that.

[Joan]

Near the end of the section At Mme Swann's
(view spoiler)[
"During these periods when sorrow, though already beginning to wane, still persists, there is a difference between the mode of sorrow caused by the obsessive thought of the loved one and the sorrow brought back to mind by certain memories..." (hide spoiler)]

I can almost hear Ella Fitzgerald singing Solitude

[Geoffreyjen]

Joan wrote: "The translation I am reading is titled In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower, which sounds sort of salacious to me."

Joan, that is the literal translation of the original title in French. I think it is meant to be salacious and a little bit naive, both at the same time.

[Joan]

Thanks, Geoffrey, I wondered if it was intentional. Is the title in French also a double entendre?

[LauraT]

Joan wrote: "The translation I am reading is titled In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower, which sounds sort of salacious to me."

The same title in Italian All'ombra delle fanciulle in fiore. And IT IS salacious!

[LauraT]

Joan wrote: "Near the end of the section At Mme Swann's

"During these periods when sorrow, though already beginning to wane, still persists, there is a difference between the mode of sorrow caused by the obses..."

I didn't know that song, but I find you're right. Even if I find the protagonist rather "morbid", as he was with his mother in the first book!

[Joan]

Liz M wrote: "Joan wrote: "I'm currently reading the dinner with M. de Norpois
I'm puzzled about [spoilers removed]]"

Yes, I believe what is under spoiler tags is correct. Apparently Proust is supposed to be fu..."

Well he ain't no or .
I wonder if (view spoiler)[ the social commentary would resonate more with a French person or his contemporaries.
Funny how some wit transcends time and place. (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

LauraT wrote: "Joan wrote: "Near the end of the section At Mme Swann's

"During these periods when sorrow, though already beginning to wane, still persists, there is a difference between the mode of sorrow caused..."

The title Solitude in my post is a hyperlink to a YouTube video.
The protagonist is unusal isn't he?
I wonder how parents today would deal with such an asthmatic, nervous, morbid little boy.
I've no children of my own but my step-son was asthmatic (but cheerful) and it was sometimes alarming.

[LauraT]

Joan wrote: "LauraT wrote: "Joan wrote: "Near the end of the section At Mme Swann's

"During these periods when sorrow, though already beginning to wane, still persists, there is a difference between the mode o..."

I sometins wonder if parents make such kids as him!

[Leslie]

Liz M wrote: "Joan wrote: "I'm currently reading the dinner with M. de Norpois
I'm puzzled about [spoilers removed]]"

Yes, I believe what is under spoiler tags is correct. Apparently Proust is supposed to be fu..."

Hmmm, I am not finding him funny but my sense of humor is definitely more English than French. Though I was amused by Marcel's reaction to his first trip to the theater!

I am about a quarter of the way through & am finding this book easier reading than Swann's Way. Maybe it is just because I have become accustomed to Proust's style...

[Joan]

Marcel compares a servant to most educated people at the beginning of Part 2, Place names, the place. Any thoughts about what he says?
(view spoiler)[
"But to see the clear look from her eyes, the fine lines of her nose and lips, all those features so often lacking from the faces of cultured people, in whom they would have denoted the high-minded disinterest of a superlative soul, was to be touched as by the intelligent and kind eyes of a dog... (hide spoiler)] knowledge.

[Joan]

I love this quip from Marcel,
"...one should make a rule of never speaking of oneself, given that it is a subject on which we may be sure our own view and that of others will never coincide."

[Leslie]

I have bogged down in the section about Bergotte...

[Joan]

Power through Leslie! The sea breezes in Balbec bring a change in Marcel and living in a hotel gives more scope for witty social commentary.

[Pink]

I've just started. After my getting rid of my kindle books, I had to wait for a physical copy and plumped for a nice old battered 2 volume edition of this book for £6. Just looking at them is making me feel a whole heap better about continuing, though I'm only 5 pages in so far! I'll try to catch up a bit next week :)