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Within a Budding Grove
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2017 Proust Challenge, Book 2: Within a Budding Grove (February 15th to March 31st)
I've just realised that I don't enjoy reading on that format as much, so all of my kindle books are at an instant disadvantage in comparison to a physical copy. A week or so ago I just decided to delete them all and I'm glad I did. I'll look forward to catching up together!
Pink wrote: "I've just realised that I don't enjoy reading on that format as much, so all of my kindle books are at an instant disadvantage in comparison to a physical copy. A week or so ago I just decided to d..."I'm more comfortable curling up with a book too, although kindle is useful when traveling.
International Flavor and Fragrances Company is trying to identify the smell that people like in old books article from NYTimes March 3, 2017
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I started the second part this week. I enjoyed the descriptions of interior designs, fashion and architecture and generally the social scene of the era, and I think Proust's prose is very beautiful at most times but it did feel tedious at times but in a good way. Like a friend who is very talkative and can be annoying at times but you still listen to them because they're really great story tellers.
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Right!!!! I think you're really right!!!
Raul wrote: "I started the second part this week. I enjoyed the descriptions of interior designs, fashion and architecture and generally the social scene of the era, and I think Proust's prose is very beautiful..."Raul, exactly!
I like when he is describing places and sensations but the people in his life are just tedious
Raul wrote: "Like a friend who is very talkative and can be annoying at times but you still listen to them because they're really great story tellers. ..."Nice said, Raul.
I'm plugging along. We had company this past week and I got no reading done at all. I'm slowly catching up and still have hopes of finishing by the end of the month.
I liked this description of one of Odette's needs to show the people of her past "how far she's come":"...a great deal of the pleasure which a woman finds in entering a class of society different from that in which she has previously lived would be lacking if she had no means of keeping her old associates informed of those others, relatively more brilliant, with whom she has replaced them."
Some parts of the sentence (ie: "woman") could work for either sex. The statement is more a way of lording it over those left behind when one has moved "up the ladder", regardless of whether it's society, a job or any other "rung".
Odette seems rather insecure; needing to show her past (and/or herself) that she's become better in some way than where she started out at.
As the above quote shows that Odette has moved "up" the societal ladder, this one suggests/shows that Swann has moved "down" the same ladder:"One and the same man, taken at successive points in his life, will be found to breathe, on different rungs of the social ladder, in atmospheres that do not of necessity become more and more refined....."
If the rest of the series continues as so far, this could be a "book I'd take to a desert island" contestant. There's a lot happening in these pages that many rereads would bring out and solidify. The whole psychology of the "do's" and "don'ts" of society and who's who is convoluted.
Petra wrote: "If the rest of the series continues as so far, this could be a "book I'd take to a desert island" contestant. There's a lot happening in these pages that many rereads would bring out and solidify. ..."It's a "desert island" book for me. This is a reread for me; the first time through I didn't pick up the scial commentary, and I'm enjoying the parts I remembered, such as the train rides as an analogy of moving through time.
Petra wrote: "If the rest of the series continues as so far, this could be a "book I'd take to a desert island" contestant. There's a lot happening in these pages that many rereads would bring out and solidify. ..."I agree Petra, the book has so many layers, re-reading Swann's Way was a testament to this.
The get-together at the Swanns' home with Bergotte is kind of boring. That is one long, long party. I'm looking forward to everyone going home and the story continuing onwards. LOL!
Petra wrote: "The get-together at the Swanns' home with Bergotte is kind of boring. That is one long, long party. I'm looking forward to everyone going home and the story continuing onwards. LOL!"It's a bad sign when you can't wait for the party to be over, : )
Marcel's descriptions of Elstir's paintings make me wonder-is Proust describing what he would like to be able to paint,
or
paintings that he really liked,
or
spelling out the effect he hopes his writing has on the reader?
Joan, I don't think I've reached the part with Elstir's paintings yet. I don't recall the name. I'll keep an eye open for it.A couple of thoughts on the few pages at the end of the Bergotte luncheon/get together;
- Gilberte seems to truly be Swann's daughter (the comparison of her features with her mom & dad's). I had wondered about that (maybe still do) but it seems that Swann may truly be her biological father.
- Bergotte is a bit forward in telling a young boy that his doctor is the wrong doctor to be treating him
- Bergotte is a bit trusting (perhaps the wrong word?) to be talking down about his hosts to a child that visits them often (then tells the child not to repeat his words)
Why is everyone telling a 13/14 year old child so many things and including him as an adult in so many conversations?
Swann and family seem to have included the narrator rather firmly into their family structure.
We were told (by Gilberte) that her parents didn't like him (this may have been a lie told to ward off his affections for Gilberte when she wasn't interested in them), then he's welcomed with very open arms into the family and treated as one of their own.
It's a weird dynamic.
Petra wrote: "Joan, I don't think I've reached the part with Elstir's paintings yet. I don't recall the name. I'll keep an eye open for it.A couple of thoughts on the few pages at the end of the Bergotte lunch..."
Early on, I thought the Swann family interaction with Marcel would not be surprising today for a 17 or 18 year old. I can think of quite a few young people who formed close ties to the families of boy/girl friends - so close that the tie remained after the romance was ended. But after finishing "At Mme Swann's" (view spoiler)
I read an interesting Wikipedia article on "Western European Marriage Pattern" because I had thought maybe 14 was more considered more mature then; it wasn't.
I have finished Mme. Swann At Home. Phew!There are parallels between Swann's romance with Odette and the narrator's romance with Gilberte.
Both are obsessed with their love interests.
Both seem to be in love with being in love.
Neither has really seen their partner for the person they are.
Both women react the same way to the attentions: the more attention they get, the less interested they are (or appear to be).
Both Swann and the narrator decide to cool their heels for awhile. Somehow, this brings Swann back to Odette but steers the narrator away from Gilberte.
In Swann's case, absence makes the hear grow fonder?
In the narrator's case, out of sight, out of mind?
Although I'm not sure what Swann's incentives were, I think the narrator's incentive that he was in love with the idea of being in love. There did seem to be some attraction at first, although I didn't get a good handle on whether Gilberte was as invested in a relationship as the narrator.
The narrator's relationship with Odette is weird. At some point, the relationship with Gilberte staled but the relationship with Odette warmed. Odette seems to enjoy the attention.
It's sad that the narrator sold all of Aunt Leonie's items to purchase flowers and trinkets. Aunt Leonie seemed to have thought highly of him and having him frivolously give her things away would have upset her, I think.
(really??....her couch to a brothel????!!!!! She would have flipped!!!!)
Having only Marcel's view of events and himself makes me curious- would so many people care about him and seek his company if he was as morose and moon-struck as he confides in this diary.I'm having a bit of fun imagining Gilberte's description of their story.
While I love the male-female dynamics in Proust's work, I was recently reading about his life and it appears that he was at least a latent homosexual and may have had several homosexual relationships, although very discrete ones. And therefore, several of his feminine portrayals may actually have been based on masculine figures. Event the names are suggestive - Gilberte, Albertine. Not, apparently, Odette, but many of the others. I think understanding this gives the work a different sense - without subtracting from the "feminine" portrayals, I think the very high sensitivity to relationships may have been at least partially informed by homosexual yearnings.
Geoffrey wrote: "While I love the male-female dynamics in Proust's work, I was recently reading about his life and it appears that he was at least a latent homosexual and may have had several homosexual relationshi..."I think if Proust had been born into a world more accepting of ariations in class, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation, then this series would have been quite different.
I read this book when I was in high school in the 1970's and was oblivious to lot in the second part. (view spoiler) I've seen references to Proust dealing with both transgender and homosexual issues.
How nice it would be if we could gve up gender strictures.
I'm at Balbec now and I'm surprised at the social class divide and how much the people are obsessed by it.
Petra wrote: "The get-together at the Swanns' home with Bergotte is kind of boring. That is one long, long party. I'm looking forward to everyone going home and the story continuing onwards. LOL!"Glad to see I wasn't the only one who felt this way! I am finding the second section at Balbec more interesting.
I knew Proust was homosexual & I guess that I had expected (maybe still am expecting) Marcel to be also... It is interesting that his love interests do have those feminized male names (though many women's names fall into that category! Georgina, Jean, Paulette, Bernadette, etc.).
Raul wrote: "I'm at Balbec now and I'm surprised at the social class divide and how much the people are obsessed by it."I was surprised by the class stereotypes used to describe people.
OMG!.....the narrator is such a wienie at the beginning of the Balbec section. Two years have passed, so he must be around 16, and he's acting like a spoiled invalid. His poor granny!I hope he matures and starts taking care of himself a bit (really!??...he needs help undressing! Granny needs to undo his shirt buttons!).
Oy!
Petra wrote: "OMG!.....the narrator is such a wienie at the beginning of the Balbec section. Two years have passed, so he must be around 16, and he's acting like a spoiled invalid. His poor granny!I hope he mat..."
So true - and she seemed to just smile through his tantrums. I'm not sure that I could be such a patient Granny.
Raul wrote: "I'm at Balbec now and I'm surprised at the social class divide and how much the people are obsessed by it."I'm finding this, too, Raul. In many cases, it's rather funny, yet it was a real situation and people lived with these rules. How confining.
I found it really sad that Francoise (a character I really enjoy) saw "home" as a place with only one's blood relatives. The sewing lady in Balbec, who had no family but who considered her adopted family as "home", was pitied by Francoise for not understanding what "home" meant. I felt sad by this somehow. I'm glad the sewing lady found such an inviting family. Her life would have been so much harder without them.
Joan wrote: "I'm not sure that I could be such a patient Granny. ..."
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be nearly so patient or obliging. I like doing small things to make people feel comfortable and welcome but being their "everything" just isn't in me. At some point, if one does everything for someone else, one loses one's own identity and goals.
Petra wrote: "Joan wrote: "I'm not sure that I could be such a patient Granny. ..."
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be nearly so patient or obliging. I like doing small things to make people feel comfortable and we..."
It is just as you say and so I find Marcel's Grandmother a bit sad because in both Balbec and Combrey, she seemed to be a woman of intelligence and creativity who put her self aside to be a wife/grandmother. I guess some families are like that.
Struggling a bit. I find Saint-Loup interesting; not sure what to make of him yet.
Bloch is rather annoying, as is the narrator.
I found the scene between the narrator and his grandmother where they skirted the issue of her death very touching.
There are beautiful passages but I'm still floundering a bit. Hopefully, there will be some action beside sitting on the seaside and rambling through the countryside in coaches coming up.
Petra wrote: "Struggling a bit. I find Saint-Loup interesting; not sure what to make of him yet.
Bloch is rather annoying, as is the narrator. ..."
Bloch is annoying! He seems quite different from what little we saw of him in Swann's Way I thought.
I like Saint-Loup; his love affair with his mistress seems almost an echo of Swann and Odette in the first book though.
I am up to the 3rd section now.
Mod
I hope he mat..."
Exactly Petra!!! I find him insufferable!!!
I haven't reached the part where his mistress is introduced. She's been spoken of but not present. Saint-Loup seems to be a good friend for the narrator, in which case he'll perhaps encourage the narrator to a more normal lifestyle? Perhaps the narrator is already on his way to a normal lifestyle.....he's noticing a lot of girls, starting with the farm girl he sees on the train while travelling to Barbec.
There was that strange encounter with the girl on the bridge when he went to see the ivy-covered church.
Girls may be his way to a normal lifestyle.
Laura, he is awfully pampered. I know he's sick (asthma?) and it keeps him isolated (it seems awfully bad; the doctor is often called) but wouldn't there still be things he should/could/would do by himself (like dressing)?
Perhaps it's the way things were back then?
LauraT wrote: "Petra wrote: "OMG!.....the narrator is such a wienie at the beginning of the Balbec section. Two years have passed, so he must be around 16, and he's acting like a spoiled invalid. His poor granny!..."For me, my dislike is not quite to the level of finding him "insufferable" but his dependence on his grandmother, very similar to his previous dependency on his mother, struck me as odd. I do think that his illness must be something more serious than asthma - it sounds almost like tuberculosis to me...
I have difficulty in connecting with Marcel - his whole way of thinking and feeling is so different from mine!
@Petra, Saint-Loup's mistress hasn't been introduced in person yet (by the end of the second part) but their relationship is described in some detail towards the end of this section.
I'm enjoying reading all of your comments, but still haven't got past the first few pages. I just can't feel inspired to pick it up again.
I never even got started, Pink, but I'm enjoying the discussion also.
Leslie wrote: For me, my dislike is not quite to the level of finding him "insufferable" .."I think if I had to live with him and cater to him, I would find him insufferable. He seems to have energy/will to do the things he wants but lets others do the mundane, everyday things in life. It's a spoiled behavior that seems to go beyond his illness.
(I hadn't thought of tuberculosis.....)
Pink & Gill, it really is lovely writing. It's taking up a lot of my reading time, I have to admit. I recommend trying it but take it slow. I'm aiming for about 25 pages a day (give or take) and that's working out pretty good.
I think I'll give it another try this week and if I don't get on with it I might shelve it for the future.
Petra wrote: "I haven't reached the part where his mistress is introduced. She's been spoken of but not present. Saint-Loup seems to be a good friend for the narrator, in which case he'll perhaps encourage the n..."The description of how Elstair saw scenes and what he tried to convey in his paintings was wonderful for me; I confess I am not at all creative, but I am intrigued by how artists do what the do.
Maybe asthma treatment wasn't as effective back then so it was more debilitating?
Raul wrote: "I started the second part this week. I enjoyed the descriptions of interior designs, fashion and architecture and generally the social scene of the era, and I think Proust's prose is very beautiful..."Proust did it again just as Raul said tediously talkative then BAM a delightful nugget.
In a poignant scene, eating a fruit tart triggers a memory of Aunt Leonie.
It's funny how certain foods can take you back.
Joan, Proust really does pull the irons out of the fire. His words can be really beautiful. I like his pondering about how one can realize the preciousness of Life just at a moment when Life is precarious. I was a bit disappointed in him over the incident of his grandmother having her photograph taken. Killjoy!
I enjoyed the dinner and evening out with Saint-Loup. The narrator seems to finally be unwinding and just plain enjoying himself.
That evening reminded me of times with my mom after she got sick. She just enjoyed the times when she had energy and immersed herself into the moment. It was wonderful to see her enjoying Life.
Proust is a great observer of people.I think people portray different aspects of themselves in different situations and Proust is showing that with his various depictions of each character. Swann is a perfect example; he's seen in such different light by people.
People make assumptions and conclusions of others all the time (who they are; what they stand for, for example) with incomplete information...which basically means that others create a person's personality, traits and convictions in their own minds without taking the time to truly get to know the person and they spread that personality around through conversation with others. As long as society can put a personality or label on a person, that's "good enough", even if that label is incorrect.
Also, we tend to put forward different faces in different social situations and protect our core selves by keeping it inside.
I think it's wonderful that Proust is so aware of this action of all of us and is putting it into the novel. It would mean that any character in this book will be different, depending on who they are with and what that person's idea is of the character's personality.
Petra & Tom - great observations!
I liked this:"And the husband who, on the Day of Judgement, as he helps his young wife to rise from her grave, lays her hand against his own heart to reassure her, to prove to her that it is indeed beating, isn't that also rather a stunning idea, really inspired?"
It's a lovely vision somehow, the husband lovingly reassuring his wife by connecting them together by placing her hand on his heart.
Almost finished. This last section of teenage antics and life are beautifully written and very much pondered and dissected by the narrator but not my favorite part. It's so very teenagerish: the parties, the antics, the school test worries, the need to fit in, fashions, etc.
When the narrator spoke about friendship and how much trouble is was to keep up and how much more fun it was to spend time with the girls, I was reminded of an adage: Friendship is an expensive commodity. How true but what in Life that is worth having & keeping isn't expensive in some way? The narrator is missing the point (but then, he's being a typical teen, too).
I am glad though, that the narrator is finally leading a normal life. He's getting out, picnicking, riding a bicycle, going out in the evenings..... leading a life for a change.
Girls......so many girls throughout this book. What is interesting is that the narrator doesn't really get to know any of the girls for the people they truly are. He's in love with them all, yet who is he in love with if he doesn't see them as individuals? He seems to be in love with Love itself and the girls are just the objects needed in order to feel love.
Swann was sort of the same with Odette, don't you think? He didn't really know Odette as an individual either.
Then there's the aspect (rather vague for me but hanging around the edges of my mind) of love (or relationships?) being a bit of a trap. Swann suddenly "needed" Odette, circumstances be damned. The narrator "needed" Gilberte, now "needs" the bunch of girls and throughout the book has "needed" many a girl he sees (many of which he never meets face to face). This "need" makes the person change his actions and goals....in essence, separating the person from their true self.
I will finish the book today.
Petra wrote: "Almost finished. This last section of teenage antics and life are beautifully written and very much pondered and dissected by the narrator but not my favorite part. It's so very teenagerish: the ..."
The last section reminded me of undergraduate life,:
intense discussions about important topics with Saint Loup & Bloch,
Intense romantic fantasies about the girls
Intense brooding about portentous & unique insights (his own)
And a lot of time spent goofing around.
Like my undergrad years, I'm glad it is over.
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I'm glad, though, that you haven't given up on the read.
I'm not far in yet either, so we'll catch up together.