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Within a Budding Grove
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2017 Proust Challenge, Book 2: Within a Budding Grove (February 15th to March 31st)
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That's an interesting concept, Joan. I'm going to keep it in mind as I read along. At this point, I'm not sure what Proust is trying to say but the story is interesting.Didn't the narrator leave Gilberte? She kept asking him over; it was he who wouldn't go.
If Albertine says no to him, I'm not there yet. But meeting while on vacation seems to point to a teenage romance that's bound to end, doesn't it?
So far, he's enamored with all 3 girls and whichever one pays him attention is the one he's in love with.
Finished! Phew!All in all, I think this is a fantastic look at adolescence.
A wonderful look at what our teenage lives were like: parties, games, friends, no cares or worries, fun.
Also: uncertainty, awkwardness, discovery, realization that adults are also fallible.
A wonderful story of learning what the World holds and getting ready for that next step into adulthood.
I liked this quote:
"On the whole I had derived very little benefit from Balbec, but this only strengthened my desire to return there.”
It's a bit like saying "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone". Our little narrator is maturing. :D
This finished Book 1 of the 3-Volume set.
Marcel did stop going to see Gilberte, but she was already showing that she was bored with him, for example pulling faces when her mother told her to be nice to him. He saw her out one day with another young man when she had begged off seeing him.
True but she wrote asking him back after he stopped coming over. Very teenage behavior (want him/her when he/she doesn't show interest).I agree that if the narrator hadn't stopped going over to see Gilberte, she would have stopped seeing him but the fact that he stopped seeing her made him interesting again. (or so it seemed)
Petra wrote: "True but she wrote asking him back after he stopped coming over. Very teenage behavior (want him/her when he/she doesn't show interest).I agree that if the narrator hadn't stopped going over to se..."
That is true, I had forgotten that she wrote.
It is typical to want the one that walks away, isn't it?
I really liked his description of the girls' coloring and faces. I think I prefer his descriptions of things & places over the writing about people and interactions.
Mod
All in all, I think this is a fantastic look at adolescence.
A wonderful look at what our teenage lives were like: parties, games, friends, no cares or worries, fun.
Also: uncert..."
Yes in a way Petra; but having two teen agers son and daughter now living with me, I have to say that it is an obsolete one! They are much freer than we were, but have much more worries: before somehow, you knew what was going to be your life, the "drawer" of life you were in. Today they feel they don't know what will be their life to come: will they find a job; will they be able of starting an "adult life"?
Joan, Proust does have wonderful descriptions. Sometimes, though, I find them too long and he goes on and on and on..... I like his ponderings and am still glad when the story moves back to the people and interactions.
Laura, I think I agree that today's teen's have more to worry about. The world is changing so fast that it's hard to keep up.
I remember worrying about where my life was going and if I'd get a decent job. There were plenty of jobs in the malls or restaurants but I felt I wanted something else but didn't know what.
I'm not sure what teens are worried about starting their adult life. I guess I consider the start of that as when the child finishes their schooling. In today's world, that can be mid-20s or later (depending upon what level of schooling the child goes for).
The narrator's life is rather charmed, as well. He's born into a family where he doesn't have to worry about his meals or money. He can just relax and enjoy life's pleasures (if he weren't so neurotic). He's also got an awful lot of personal freedom to roam the city when he wants.
Petra wrote: "Joan, Proust does have wonderful descriptions. Sometimes, though, I find them too long and he goes on and on and on..... I like his ponderings and am still glad when the story moves back to the pe..."
He does have a charmed life, and yet he worries if he will ever become a writer - he worries about being capable of being a writer. And didn't he rebel against his father's career advice in The Way by Swann’s?
I find it interesting that he seeks to hang out with girls who are not in his social class - and then gets snobby about their accents and mannerisms. Though I found it refreshing when he recognized his assumptions had been wrong.
But he's not worried about survival. If I had to depend on my writing to keep me fed and clothed, it would be a secondary career (I'd be writing around my "real" job that paid the bills). The narrator worries about being capable; not about eating or living under a roof. He knows that he'll always be taken care of. He's charmed. That worrying about being a capable writer is part of his obsessive personality. He's still a wienie, despite living a more normal teenage life at Balbec. :D
Joan, he did rebel (argue? discuss?) against his father. It was Mister de Nois (??) who convinced Dad that the narrator had some amount of talent and had a chance to do well.
Do you think that becoming aware that the different classes are really the same under all that money, clothing and privilege is part of the rite of passage and maturity of growing up, for the narrator?
Petra wrote: "But he's not worried about survival. If I had to depend on my writing to keep me fed and clothed, it would be a secondary career (I'd be writing around my "real" job that paid the bills). The narra..."So true! That's why I said he reminded me of undergaduate years (18-21) more than high school (15-18). So serious about DEEP questions and one's role in the world.
I think my friends and I spent some time being wienies.
LOL! Didn't we all! Hopefully, the narrator will outgrow it as well. :D
I bet this work resonates differently at different ages, depending on life experiences. That's one of the things that would make this a great Desert Island book.
Is everyone ready for the next book, The Guermantes Way? Anyone planning on reading this in April & May?
Petra wrote: "I bet this work resonates differently at different ages, depending on life experiences. That's one of the things that would make this a great Desert Island book."So very true. The first 2 were rereads for me - and I have had a very different perspective.
I've just started The Guermantes Way, the opening vignettes are delicious.
(view spoiler)
Joan, if you're reading on, so will I. I will ask the moderators to set up a new thread. Are we aiming for 6 weeks/book still? According to my copy (the 3-book boxed set), we are 1/3 through the book in 1/4 of the year. This is a long book (619 pages or so); we could slow it down to an 8-week read (April & May)?
Thoughts? I'm game for whatever works for the group.
Petra wrote: "Joan, if you're reading on, so will I. I will ask the moderators to set up a new thread. Are we aiming for 6 weeks/book still? According to my copy (the 3-book boxed set), we are 1/3 through the b..."
Yes please do - I just started the next one and I think you will like how it fits perfectly your observation of growth.
I'm finding reading 12-15 pages a day works for me. Each of his vignettes or whatever seem to be about that long, so I don't feel swamped by his imagination. My set (Penguin Classics, new translation is 6 books).
The Guermantes Way is 597 pages.The fourth book in my set is Sodom and Gomorrah. Sod&Gom may be the same as "Cities of The Plain".
So, stick with the 6-week/book plan for now?
1 book in 6 weeks is good for me, Is the 3 volume set is divided into 6 books within the 3 volumes?
I haven't looked that far ahead. I think it may be 7 books. I'll check later today, when I get home.
I continue to plug along, and am now at the point where the narrator has been admitted chez Swann. I'm not sure how old he is supposed to be at this point, but he still seems immature for his age. Plowed through the talk about society people and those they know and would prefer to know. I can't help but think that the narrator's going to get a rude awakening as to the true reason for his being allowed into the house. It's that, or like M. Swann, he will be excluded, and he will go on for pages about that.Still, the bit where he talks about appreciating a work of art - how it takes time to do so and how memory is involved is very, very good.
In my mind, he's about 13/14 when admitted to the Swann residence and 15/16 at Balbec. Somewhere I read that he's in his late teens/early twenties in The Guermantes Way.
He's a strange mix of immature and able/allowed to do more mature things (spend his inheritance, plan his social calendar, etc).
Petra wrote: "He's a strange mix of immature and able/allowed to do more mature things (spend his inheritance, plan his social calendar, etc)."I thought the same thing. Based on the way he's treated (where I'm at in the book), I would have put him around 10 or 11 but it's difficult to tell. He apparently still needs his parents' permission to do most anything, and he still feels some great pangs of grief when he disappoints them. But yet he is interested in Gilberte. I could see being a sensitive soul, but I can't help but think immaturity has a part in this. Then again, maybe that's why his parents have a tighter than expected rein on him, because they know he has a delicate constitution and sensibilities.
That may be, Tom. He is a delicate creature. He may require tighter reins in case his health suddenly fails. It's difficult to say what his parents are thinking. They are characters in his life and we only see things from the narrator's perspective. Sometimes it would be interesting to see if the others see things like the narrator sees them.
You know I can't help but think of the depression and struggles we now know gay and trans kids suffer through. How different Proust's life could have been if society was kinder.
So we go from him needing permission to see Berma as Phedra, but he's now going into houses of assignation on his own. I realize the story may indeed be non-linear time-wise because it's the narrator's recollection of events from his past, but a guidepost or two would be nice (unless that was it).
It may be that Berma's performance was at night (was it? I can't remember) and his visits are during the day? Maybe he can do as he pleases in daylight hours but not after dark?Proust may be showing that memory isn't linear but, in general, I think the storyline is progressing in a linear fashion.
I rather enjoy sharing memories with my brother. When we remember the same event, our versions are similar but different. It's kind of nice getting a more rounded perspective of a time in our lives....even though neither of us may know whether our memories are complete. Bringing the two memories together can flesh out the event somewhat. It's kind of nice, even if we'll never know the real truth, if memory is as fickle and unreliable as it may be.
For sure it is not linear, like memory, and can be confusing.I thought he mixed memories of his first visit to a prostitute with memories of later ones on purpose. To illustrate the fluidity of memory, how one thought leads to another.
In the same way, his memory of Gilberte mixes their early play at the park with their fledging romance in their teens.
I thought the Marcel that hung out with the Swanns seemed to be in his mid teens - 16.
A first visit to prostitues at 16 didn't seem surprising to me - gosh what does that say about me!
I did like how he mentions visiting the houses of assignation just before talking about how he would call on Mme Swann in the wake of his estrangement from Gilberte.
Tom wrote: "I did like how he mentions visiting the houses of assignation just before talking about how he would call on Mme Swann in the wake of his estrangement from Gilberte."Hah hah, I had missed that juxtaposition; Proust is witty isn't he?
Joan wrote: "Tom wrote: "I did like how he mentions visiting the houses of assignation just before talking about how he would call on Mme Swann in the wake of his estrangement from Gilberte."Hah hah, I had mi..."
Yes, but I recall Rossini's opinion of Wagner's music: "Wagner has lovely moments but awful quarters of an hour."
Finished Mme Swann at Home and I am glad to be done with it. To me it's basically a more innocent redux of Swann's courting Mme. de Crecy. The narrator, for example, concentrates on forgetting Gilberte rather than being unfaithful to her. The same dynamics seem at play though - be too interested and she will think you weak-willed and malleable. Be not interested enough and she will lose interest as well. (Again, a "dude, she's just not that into you" would have cut a few hundred pages from the book I think.)However tedious I found his relationship dynamics speechifying, I do like how he talks about learning and liking music, as with M. Vinteuil's sonata. The parts that you don't like at first are the ones you tend to like and remember past the initial novelty. The same is true of people as he talks about at the beginning of Part II. He speaks of external triggers for memories buried deep within us, like the madeleine that has him recall Combray in Book 1 and now the "Ministry of Posts" that brings to mind an otherwise forgotten conversation between Gilberte and her father. I think it also plays into the mention of how external associations can cause love to appear rather than the person him/herself.
He also mentions how Habit works on memories to soften them, and how it allows him to get used to his new room at Balbec enabling him to live life again, and of some travelers who carry their Habit with them, hermetically sealing themselves from the life going on around them.
I did think it funny that in all his reading he did not realize that the the Church he wanted to see was actually at Balbec-Plage 12 miles away rather than at Balbec-Terre where he got off the train.
I realize that the narrator has delicate sensibilities, but I couldn't help but think the way he and his grandmother interact when they first get to Balbec was at least a little creepy (especially if he's supposed to be 15-16).
I do feel sorry for him (the narrator) though as he builds his expectations so high, there's no way anything will measure up. I hope he is able to rein in that talent so that he's able to enjoy life a bit more.
Tom, I like that you brought up the notion of Habit and it's softening properties. I hadn't thought of it like that but so true. I also think the narrator's relationships can veer towards the side of creepy. His grandmother undressing him and his attachment to his mother (not wanting to go on vacation and not have her in his daily life) are creepy weird. His stalking of those he's interested in is creepy, too.
Marcel is visiting Doncieres, and the description of his hotel is beautiful, detailed, quirky and really brings the space to life.I prefer his descriptions of places and sensations over his descriptions of people, but I enjoyed the sketches of officers in Doncieres. Proust's description of them seemed more sympathetic and less cynical.
I'm struck by the contrast between Marcel's self-portrayal as a nebbish and his popularity.
Still plugging ahead. The part where he visits Elstir almost did me in with his descriptions of the paintings in the studio.Going off what Proust says about dopplegaengers, I can't help but think that Bloch and Joyce's Buck Mulligan would fit the bill.
Tom wrote: "Still plugging ahead. The part where he visits Elstir almost did me in with his descriptions of the paintings in the studio.Going off what Proust says about dopplegaengers, I can't help but think..."
Hah Hah, good one!
Back to reading after a break. I find it somehow strange, how the narrator is obviously very delicate and seems to be introverted but insists on social outings, going the Proustian way of explanations, I think it might be because he was watched over a lot and forced indoors that made him so I think.
Raul wrote: "Back to reading after a break. I find it somehow strange, how the narrator is obviously very delicate and seems to be introverted but insists on social outings, going the Proustian way of explanati..."It's a classic chicken/egg problem - which came first.
In reading through more of the Elstir bits, it occurred to me the narrator is carrying through with what seemed so funny in the first book. When they wouldn't let him have the original art but would let him have a woodcut of it? He (the narrator) is describing how Elstir's sea paintings have given him a much different appreciation of the sea.
I also noticed how he was relying on Habit so as to see the group of girls by the beach.
I have finally finished -- only a month or so late! I liked this one more than Swann's Way. Unfortunately, Proust is not a good book for hospital reading - his prose requires concentration and the interruptions & mental strain made it impossible for me to read this while my father was in & out of the hospital.
Once things settle down some, I do hope to try the 3rd book but I doubt I will make it through the whole series this year. Sorry guys!
Leslie, it's great that you're enjoying the books. I am, too, but like you, life is making it hard to keep up with this read lately. But I'm going to keep reading, even if I'm not done by the end of the year. I hope you keep reading, too. Proust does require time. I like the writing and the story. It meanders a bit too much (for me) at times but that's okay; the whole package is worth it, to me.
I want to enjoy this read for all its worth, so don't mind taking my time a little. These books are long and I'm a bit of a slow reader.
Hope you'll keep reading and join me for the journey.
I hope your father is doing better.
Tom wrote: "Raul wrote: "Back to reading after a break. I find it somehow strange, how the narrator is obviously very delicate and seems to be introverted but insists on social outings, going the Proustian way..."Definitely agree, and all of the narrator's experiences especially regarding people and places always change rely heavily on Habit.
And sorry for such a late reply.
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Swann’s Way (other topics)The Guermantes Way (other topics)
The Guermantes Way (other topics)
Sodom and Gomorrah (other topics)
The Guermantes Way (other topics)
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Oscar Wilde (other topics)George Eliot (other topics)
C.P. Snow (other topics)
Was he, perhaps, portraying some theory about relationships that was popular at that time, trying to link Marcel's personality to his relationship with his Mother?
There seems to be a running theme about yearning for women who deny him. For Marcel, it started with his mother and the bedtime kisses, then Gilberte and now Albertine, then Swann and Odette.