June 2014 Group Read - Lord of Light

[Jo]

The June group read author was Roger Zelazny and the book chosen was Lord of Light. Whether you have already read it or plan to do so feel free to discuss here.

[Jim]

I read this not long ago with another group. It was written in 7 parts which are not in chronological order. Part 1 starts in Sam's present, but at the end he remembers back, so part 2 is way in the past & the story proceeds to chronologically from that point on. The back story is all filled in by the end of part 6 & part 7 continues on after part 1 chronologically. This dive back in time apparently confuses people on their first read.

[David]

Jim wrote: "I read this not long ago with another group. It was written in 7 parts which are not in chronological order. Part 1 starts in Sam's present, but at the end he remembers back, so part 2 is way in ..."

I read this book as a teenager more than 30 years ago. I remember liking it to some extent, but also being confused by it. Thanks for this insight into the book. It sounds like the perfect book for a re-read.

[Jim]

Most of Zelazny's books get better on re-reads. He's a subtle writer. There's always a main story that might be somewhat confusing, but is pretty good & obvious. On a re-read, when I know what is going on, I can concentrate more on the nuances & there are a lot of those.

Zelazny was very widely read & often couches descriptions, jokes, & such in classical references. A line that seems somewhat familiar will suddenly click & I'll realize that it is paraphrased or even lifted whole from some famous work that gives more depth & meaning to the passage. Some of his books are really loaded with them like This Immortal which might just be my favorite novel of all time. These books get better as I become better read.

A Night in the Lonesome October is even more fun, a lunatic scavenger hunt. He doesn't just reference classics (the title is a line out of an Edgar Allan Poe poem) but old B horror movies & more. Even the cover art is part of the fun. It was painted by Andy Warhol's nephew. I've been reading it in a group every year lately. Each chapter is a day, so it's fun to read that way & discuss the import of the latest entry which is told by Jack the Ripper's dog - a very interesting point of view.

Zelazny is also a joker & puts a pun into every novel. In this one, it's a real stinker that's in the second part. Don't read this spoiler until you're done with it, but if you didn't get it, here it is: (view spoiler)[ "...the fit hit the Shan..." (hide spoiler)] I usually miss them unless it is pointed out to me.

[Harold]

This is the first book we've read in our journey through the evolution of SF that feels really modern to me...which is funny, given how it is framed as the replayed conflict of ancient religions. But there's a lot in the setting that anticipates the tropes of modern space opera.

If it had been written recently, it probably would explain a lot of the abilities as nanotechnology, but Zelazny doesn't feel the need to try to explain how anything works, which is a lovely contrast to many SF authors (Heinlein, say). Purists probably dislike this, and many would probably dismiss this as a fantasy novel rather than SF, as the plot does not hang on the science. But I loved this novel when I first read it 20 years ago, and I loved it again when I read it yesterday...to the point that I wonder why I haven't re-read it sooner.

My only quibble is that the ending is not as elegant as I would like. Several of you have mentioned the story structure, which throws us into the build up to the climactic battle, and then jumps back in time to tell us the story of the previous incarnation of the character. At several points this "flashback" narrative references still previous incarnations' histories, and through this Zelazny does a fine job of telling a cyclical story as is appropriate to his setting (there are no beginnings and no ends, only a turning of the wheel)...but I feel the ending diminishes this somewhat, as it really feels like a traditional ending, rather than the beginning of another story.

[Jim]

So LoL is kind of a space opera in the way it handles technology? More like Campbell or Doc Smith? I'd agree with that. It helps with the fantasy air of the novel.

One of the things I've always liked about Zelazny is the blend of fantasy & SF. It's hard to know where to shelve his books much less him as an author. This is an SF story written as a fantasy & can be read either way. In one group, I was told that just ruins categorizing the book altogether & the person seemed miffed about that. Personally, I think it's nice. I'm not limited to a single shelf like a brick book store. I can put books on as many virtual shelves as I want.

I certainly won't disagree with you on the ending. I like it better sometimes, but have never been thrilled with it. I believe Zelazny addresses that in a letter or a talk. I'll try to look it up tonight when I get home. I probably read it in one of the 'Collected Works', 6 volumes plus a bibliography available from NESFA. Or ask Chris Kovacks, one of the editors, directly. He checks the Zelazny group regularly. The correct topic is linked below, but there might be some spoilers there, even though the topic isn't marked for them (It should be if there are, but the moderator is a lazy sod.)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Jim]

I found Zelazny's notes on the end of LoL. It's on page 321 of Power & Light, the 2d of the Collected Works of Roger Zelazny by NESFA Press.

He said (view spoiler)[ legends tend to have variations & not to end, plus he didn't know how it was going to end, so he wound up with 4 of them & liked it. (hide spoiler)] On that same page, he also mentions again how he blended SF & fantasy.

[David]

I thought I'd share my first impressions after having read chapter 1, staying away from plot and spoilers. I was struck by the fact this book has seven chapters like Samuel R. Delany's Dhalgren. Dhalgren is a circular novel and in a way, so is this, given Jim's comment above describing how it starts in the story's present, shifts to flashback for the next five chapters and loops back to the present in the last chapter. Both books have characters named Tak in them. I'll be curious to see if there are any other parallels.

On a mostly unrelated note, I'm reminded of a novel I read serialized in Analog around the time I read these two novels. It was written by Tak Hallus and I read it specifically because he shared the name of these characters.

[Jo]

I finished this weekend and gave it 4 stars although if there was 4.5 I would give it that. I read the SF Masterworks edition and in the introduction it compared it to Frank Herbert's Dune which I really love. I didn't really understand the comparison until I had reached the 4th chapter but then I realized what an immense novel this is. There are very few authors that can manage this. This is the first Zelazny novel I have read and I am definitely going to read more.
Not a criticism but I have never really understood where the division between sci-fi and fantasy comes and I wonder why this is sci-fi and not fantasy.

[David]

Jo wrote: "Not a criticism but I have never really understood where the division between sci-fi and fantasy comes and I wonder why this is sci-fi and not fantasy."

I've always thought of the division more of a marketing thing than anything else. If fantasy sells better at a certain time you'll find a lot of science fiction being labeled as fantasy. At the time Lord of Light came out, sci fi sold a lot better than Fantasy. That said, as a genre, I've always thought of the division as sci fi being based on what's currently known as possible scientifically. Science determines the rules by which the created world can operate. In fantasy the rules are determined by the author. But that means the dividing line is movable depending on what is scientifically possible today. A sci fi book from 40 years ago might have slipped into the realm of fantasy in the intervening years because of what we learned.

Zelazny is well known for testing the dividing line. He likes to mix science fiction and fantasy. He makes it difficult for publishers and fans to decide what genre his books fall into. Throw computers into a setting where magic is common and then what do you call it?

[Buck]

The two are often grouped together - Science fiction/fantasy. I can tell the difference and I assume most readers can. I prefer 'pure' science fiction, but there is a lot of overlap - books that could be put in either or both categories.

Zelany's This Immortal is kind of a mixture. It takes place in the future and there are extra-terrestrials, but mostly it seems to be based on characters from Greek mythology. I'll start reading Lord of Light tomorrow, probably. I kind of am expecting it to be a mix.

[Harold]

Speaking to the difference between science fiction and fantasy, this is an age-old conversation, and a distinction that is fun for fans and readers to discuss and consider. But I think the division is much simpler for publishers: "If it involves space travel, it's science fiction. If it involves magic or other supernatural elements, it's fantasy."

[David]

I think it's even simpler than that for publishers-- which category is selling the best and how many books can we reasonably place in that category without pissing off readers when they get the book home. For a while cyber punk was so hot almost any science fiction book was being categorized that way.

[Buck]

I have just started Lord of Light. Here is a sample, from page 10:
Sam bowed his head."Rightly are you called deathgod, Yama-Dharma. You have snatched away from me the ultimate experience. You have broken upon the dark stone of your will that which is beyond all comprehension and mortal splendor. Why could you not have left me as I was, in the sea of being?"

Is this typical of the writing throughout the book?

[Jim]

At times, other times it is less formal. Much is written in a bardic voice. (I guess that's the right term.) Depends on the section & circumstances, but the contrasts are often important.

[Buck]

The Shan of Irabek has an epileptic seizure and Zelazny writes, "Then the fit hit the Shan." I almost dropped the book. :P

[Jim]

Buck, he puts a stinker in every book.
;)

[Harold]

Following on to your earlier comment, Buck, it is interesting to me to think about why they speak the way that they do in the book. As I read it, I took it to be the tongue-in-cheek humor of these people who are essentially geeky scientists who've lived so very, very long - they like to poke fun at themselves with a bit of sarcastic hyperbole. But, on the other hand, they have lived an incredibly long time, and their original lives were lived so long ago that the present reality - which they themselves constructed, where they are gods of the pantheon they created themselves (loosely based on Hindu beliefs) - may actually seem like the only life they've ever known. In that case, they may be living their fiction earnestly, rather than ironically. I'm not sure that I buy that second reading, but that may just be because I find it much easier to relate to the sarcastic, mocking approach, where formal, poetic language is used for humorous effect or even to set up a punch line. But I suspect one could argue the other view, too.

[Buck]

Harold wrote: "Following on to your earlier comment, Buck, it is interesting to me to think about why they speak the way that they do in the book. As I read it, I took it to be the tongue-in-cheek humor of these ..."

Thanks for that, Harold. It's helpful. I had the impression that it could be something like that, but it was only an impression.

I'm beginning part four. On the door to Hellwell there is an inscription that reads, roughly "Go away. This is not a place to be. If you do try to enter here, you will fail and also be cursed. If somehow you succeed, then do not complain that you entered unwarned, nor bother us with your deathbed prayers." Signed, "The Gods."

[Buck]

I didn't have a problem with the sequencing of the parts as I've read that some have had. I did notice that the seven parts were all of equal length, about 42 pages each. I guess this is some sort of a feng shui thing or has some mystical or numerology significance. I can't imagine that it was chance; Zelazny designed it that way.

With regard to the science fiction/fantasy discussion above, this is fantasy sheathed in a thin veneer of science fiction. It takes place on a planet other than Earth. That in itself is enough to have it placed in the science fiction category. There also are occasional vague references to machines and advanced technologies. But really, it's a work of fantasy, much closer to Tolkien than to Heinlein or Clarke.

The story is steeped Hindu mythology. Not being steeped in Hindu mythology myself, I have no idea how authentic it is. The primary premise of the story is conflict between the Hindu gods and Buddhism, with continuously shifting allegiances. There even is a Christian faction, the Lord and master of which is portrayed as inherently evil and even has dominion over an army of soulless zombies.

The style of the prose is not particularly appealing to me. It seems stilted, an affectation, as if the story is being told by a Shaolin monk from the old TV show, Kung Fu. There were occasional small breaks from this into contemporary English, I think mostly for humorous effect. There is indeed occasional subtle humor in the writing.

I recognize Zelazny's name from when I read a lot of science fiction many years ago. I can't remember having read anything by him way back then, but I feel that surely I must have. I wanted to like this novel. It is highly rated and included on quite a few must-read lists. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either. I recently read his This Immortal. Now, having read these two, I have no particular inclination to delve into Nine Princes in Amber which is described by Wikipedia as a new wave fantasy novel. My reading tastes lie in other directions.

[David]

Buck wrote: "I have no particular inclination to delve into Nine Princes in Amber which is described by Wikipedia as a new wave fantasy novel. My reading tastes lie in other directions.
..."

Unless you have a complete aversion to any kind of fantasy, I wouldn't write off Nine Princes In Amber on the basis of the Wiki description. The Amber series transcends the fantasy genre, in my opinion. It is quite different from Lord of Light and This Immortal. It's much more straight forward and the writing flows better. Our own world becomes only a subset of the world he creates in it, which shifts your perspective considerably as you read it. You start to feel like his created world is more real than our own. There are very few books that can do that.

I always felt like Zelazny was experimenting a lot with language in his early novels and particularly in Lord Of Light. For me it makes it harder to connect with the writing at times. I think by the time he wrote the Amber novels he'd moved on a bit from that. I think it's possible for someone to dislike Lord Of Light and love Nine Princes In Amber.

[Jim]

Zelazny originally intended to sell LoL to a monthly magazine, thus the sections & sizing. "Death & the Executioner" was published that way, but I can't recall what, if any others were.

I agree with David, Buck. Zelazny was all over the map with his styles. My son doesn't care for LoL or "This Immortal", but loves the Amber books, The Changing Land, & Dilvish, the Damned, the first is a novel starring Dilvish. The second is short stories. Changeling is really good, too. Read it as a stand alone, although it's the first of a trilogy. He never got around to writing the last book.

He wrote 2 really good SF mysteries. Today We Choose Faces is serious & looks into a man making himself into a better person. Doorways in the Sand is a lot of fun with a weird style. He starts every chapter in the middle of the action. You might want to stay away from Creatures of Light and Darkness. It's weird, but he never intended to publish it. I really like it, though.

[James]

Just finished this today, took a little while to get into it, but I was well absorbed from around the middle somewhere. I was a little concerned I wouldn't get into it going in, with the religious theme (not generally my cup of tea) but am glad to report that my concern couldn't have been more misplaced. A great story, and obviously a master story teller.

Regarding the Si-Fi Vs Fantasy thing, my feeling is that this is definitely sci-fi, with a sprinkling of fantasy. Given the era it was written I think he did a marvelous, yet subtle, job of describing things scientifically eg. "So we trapped them in magnetic bottles." which we later learn are indeed not literal bottles. Granted most of the Aspects and Attributes go unexplained, but the effect of Sam's Attribute is explained in physically sound terms, even if how he performs it is left supernatural. Elements of both, yes, but I think the sci-fi trumps the fanstasy.

Best written book I've read in some years now, and will definitely be reading more Zelazny.

[Buck]

James wrote: "Regarding the Si-Fi Vs Fantasy thing, my feeling is that this is definitely sci-fi, with a sprinkling of fantasy.... Elements of both, yes, but I think the sci-fi trumps the fanstasy."

I don't concur. If Middle Earth had three moons and if Gandalf's staff were made of titanium with electronic innards, etc., Lord of the Rings, a primary exemplar of the fantasy genre, would have been just as much science fiction as Lord of Light.

[Buck]

Thanks for the advice, David and Jim. I won't write off Zelazny's other works.

[James]

Buck wrote: "... and if Gandalf's staff were made of titanium with electronic innards, etc., Lord of the Rings, a primary exemplar of the fantasy genre, would have been just as much science fiction as Lord of Light"

Yes, if Gandalf's staff had been described in such a way, and other elements were explained (such as Saruman's Orc breeding program) in a more technical/less magical way, I would be inclined to class it sci-fi.

But that's me.

This is of course all very subjective and, as you yourself have mentioned earlier in this thread, there is overlap between the genres. I don't claim LoL is what you called 'pure' science fiction, but it is science fiction, as would Lord of the Rings be, had the author chosen to invoke technological explainations rather the supernatural.

[David]

Well, my June group reads got blown up by my SF meetup reading group choosing 1Q84 as our monthly read. It's over 1100 pages and, as it turns out, it's not even really SF or Fantasy, it's Post Modern literature, so most of the group hated it and didn't get much past the first couple of chapters. I got hooked and read the whole thing, which knocked everything else I might have read here in June or July out of the running. I would recommend 1Q84 for anyone who ends up liking Dhalgren. 1Q84 does have some fantastic elements to it and Dhalgren leans toward The Post Modern, though it is definitely Science Fiction.

It looks like The Lord Of Light discussion never really quite got off the ground. Hopefully I'll finish rereading it at some point.

[Jo]

David wrote: "Well, my June group reads got blown up by my SF meetup reading group choosing 1Q84 as our monthly read. It's over 1100 pages and, as it turns out, it's not even really SF or Fantasy, it's Post Mode..."

Haruki Murakami is one of my favourite authors. I think i've read most of his books now (fiction and non fiction). For me I love the surreal style of his books and just his descriptive ability. I have 1Q84 on my shelf waiting to read i've been saving it until I have enough time to read the whole thing.

Hopefully this means I will enjoy Dhalgren which is also sat on my shelf.

[David]

If you like Murakami for his descriptive abilities, I think you will enjoy Dhalgren. Delany is well known for his descriptive abilities and teaches it in writing classes. He has a great exercise in The Jewel-Hinged Jaw to teach students how to improve it in their own writing.

Can you recommend a good next Murakami book for me to read? I think I'm hooked.

Our next group read in my meetup group is The Man In The High Castle and I have to say, it wasn't much of a shift from Murakami to one of my favorite PKD books. Both books have novels within novels and TMITHC has very Japanese aspects to it.

[Jo]

It's difficult to decide which to recommend. I would try one of Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, A Wild Sheep Chase or The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. These are all a bit surreal. Norwegian Wood is also brilliant but more a tale of youth.

The Man in The High Castle is also a good book, your meet up group chooses well!

[David]

Lately we've had some very good picks. There are two of us who have been reading Science Fiction for 40 years. But we've had our duds too, but even those I think a lot of people wouldn't consider duds. I'm thinking of To Say Nothing Of a The Dog (which was impenetrable for me. Just can't read Willis from that point on). And Storm Front, the first of the Dresden Files books. I've heard the later ones are better, but, in my opinion, the first is pretty poorly written. There were things he threw into that book clumsily, just so he could use them in later novels. One of those toward the end totally derailed the pace of the novel's climax. I think if he'd just left that scene out or found some other way to get the information into the novel, I would have liked it a lot better. It had me yelling at him, "No, don't do that, you're killing your novel," as I was reading it. But the duds make for interesting discussion. Some people like them and others can't stand them. We recently read the classic, The World of Null-A, which is good, but definitely suffered from its age. I loved this book as a kid, but had trouble getting through it now. I'd never read Players of Null-A and decided to take the opportunity to read it right after. I liked it better than the first book.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably try The a Wind Up Bird a Chronicle next, since it shares a character with 1Q84.

[Jim]

I agree with you, David. We have had good picks. I've read 16 of the 23 we've picked & they average 4 stars. Willis never caught my interest, either. I did read the Dresden books up until the 6th one when poor copy editing destroyed the story. My son-in-law raves about the series, but I haven't been able to pick it up again.

My favorite novel by Van Vogt has always been The Silkie although The Voyage of the Space Beagle is a close second & I reread it not too long ago. I recently listened to Slan, which I've meant & wanted to get around to for a long time (Only 2 of us that have been reading SF for 40+ years?) & it was awful.

[Buck]

David wrote: "Lately we've had some very good picks. There are two of us who have been reading Science Fiction for 40 years. But we've had our duds too, but even those I think a lot of people wouldn't consider d..."

I agree with you about Willis. I've read three of her novels and her style has made me put off reading The Doomsday Book and To Say Nothing of the Dog. I will probably get around to reading them one of these days, but in no huurry.

My spouse is immersed in Jim Butcher's Dresden Files series. She wants me to read at least the first one, so thanks for the heads up, David. With wizards and supernatural beings, I hadn't considered it to be science fiction though. I'm not a great fan of fantasy.

[David]

Buck wrote: "David wrote: "Lately we've had some very good picks. There are two of us who have been reading Science Fiction for 40 years. But we've had our duds too, but even those I think a lot of people would..."

Doomsday Book is perhaps Willis's best book. There isn't quite as much of the bureaucracy getting in the way of everything happening as there is in the later books. For me reading it in this book it's pretty much like what happens on most college campuses and reads OK. Her later books suffer because she realized people liked that aspect of the book because they thought it was funny and she puts more and more of it in each successive novel. This culminates in Black Out/ All Clear having so much of it she needs to split it into two novels just to fit it all. I tried to read Black Out, but so much of the 70 pages I read was filler of this type, I kept yelling at the book, "Where's the story!"

Her other good one is her first book, Lincoln's Dreams, which is probably the least affected by her success with Doomsday Book and as a master (or mistress) of ceremonies at cons.

Everyone in my group who was into Dresden said if I didn't like book 1 because of poor writing, I should skip to book 4 because Butcher's writing improves as the series progresses. Everyone into the series poopooed the TV show and was rather annoyed I liked the show and not the book.