ARCHIVE - DUBLINERS - BUDDY READ - DISCUSSION THREAD

[David]

Two Gallants - Social restrictions

[3. Despite the hard societal and religious restrictions, there seems to have been a lot of secret trysts, that often-times ended with undesirable consequences. Do you think these situations happened as a rebellion against social strictness or was it only human nature, after all?
(view spoiler)[ Each one of us is unique and we develop our own moral code that depends on a variety of different experiences we've had especially in our developmental years. During our formative years the peer group we associate with can have a significant effect on the choices we make combined with a lot of other factors. Also the work we do is important in forming us. It's not so much the work itself but the attitude we take toward it. I don't think any occupations or jobs are mentioned in the story for Corley and Lenehan. Corley seems to me to be a shady, egotistic character who thrives on deception with a calculating eye for opportunities for petty larceny. Is Lenehan an apprentice, who sees Corley as his hero? Or is he someone who is a sad drifter who longs to enter into real relationship? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Four

(view spoiler)[The Boarding House

Mrs. Mooney, cleverly escaping a difficult marriage with a drunken husband, opens a boarding house, and continues her life as a single mother. Her young daughter Polly gets involved with one of the tenants, a Mr. Doran.



A Little Cloud

Little Chandler, a young serious man, goes to meet his old friend Ignatius Gallaher, who left the country years ago. After the meeting ends, Little Chandler start reexamining his life and questioning his decisions.

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Four Discussion Questions - The Boarding House

(view spoiler)[1. In this story, the main theme is marriage and women's position in the society. We have a single mother Mrs. Mooney, who, after separating from her drunkard husband opens a boarding house, and running it tries to bring up her two children.
How difficult it was to get out of an unhappy marriage in those times? Were people really free if they managed to get out? How hard was it to be a separated woman and a single mother? How are things different today?



2. Polly gets involved with a tenant of the boarding house, a Mr. Doran. Her mother doesn't do anything until things go far enough to require a proper solution, a marriage.
Reading the story, what is your opinion of Mrs. Mooney? How about Mr. Doran? Are they positive or negative characters? (hide spoiler)]

[James]

The Boarding House

(view spoiler)[
1) In this story Mrs. Mooney is able to get out of the marriage, but it apparently took a serious incident, her husband attacking her with a cleaver, for her to justify a divorce. I think many improvements have been made for women and just more realistic views of marriage have allowed for people to divorce if they want to. I'm sure it was difficult for Mrs. Mooney, but in this story she does seem like she is doing ok for herself and her children. Although her son might be taking after his father.

2) I liked Mrs. Mooney is this story. She does what she has to for her children and I think is very protective of them. I think she has outdated ideas, but they weren't outdated during this time. Although it does seem that Mrs. Mooney did intend to get Mr. Doran to marry her daughter through peer pressure, considering the mores of the time, he really shouldn't have been surprised. Mr. Doran seems like a sad character to me, also a bit of a snob thinking he was too good for Polly. He also seems to feel like Polly trapped him when in fact he is responsible for his actions.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Two Gallants

(view spoiler)[It makes you think how moral is the moral code really, if all of us create our personal one. Do you think Lenehan would pursue this "job" if Corley suddenly decided to bow out for some reason? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James - Mrs. Mooney

(view spoiler)[I have mixed feelings about her. On one hand, I admire her strength to get out of an abusive marriage and succeed on her own (not an easy thing to do in those times). On the other hand, it is obvious that Mr. Doran is reluctant, which means he is not really in love with Polly. Given her history, I would think her reluctant to hoist an arranged marriage on her daughter. (hide spoiler)]

[James]

Response to Samanta

(view spoiler)[That is an interesting point of view. I think the time they lived in has to be weighed as well. Mrs. Mooney is clearly ready to take advantage of a situation to try to get her daughter to "marry up". But considering the world she lives in and opportunities for women during this time, I can understand her motives. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Four Discussion Questions - A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[1. What does the meeting of the two old friends look like after so many years? How has each changed or not?

2. What happens to Little Chandler after he comes back from the meeting? Do you agree with his train of thought?

(hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Week Four Discussion Question #2 - A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[As a parent, I completely related to Little Chandler's train of thought even though it's incorrect and unproductive. Marriage and parenting may seem boring compared to his friend's glamorous life, and that's especially so when kids are little, but I believe the reward of love is so much greater. Like him, I too wish for more of a career, but I've got a feeling that if I had chosen career over kids, I would feel the lack in my life even more painfully. (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Week Four Discussion Questions - The Boarding House

(view spoiler)[Yesterday I heard Professor Susan Lewis of SUNY-New Paltz (https://soundcloud.com/twiceremoved/4... beginning about 27:00) say that it's a common misconception that women were powerless in previous centuries. Mrs. Mooney comes across as an extremely strong and capable woman to me. She got away from her drunkard husband WITH the sanction of her priest AND WITH custody of her kids. She runs a thriving business, and she got Mr. Doran to do her will and do right by Polly. True, not all women are like that, then as now, but it's a mistake to think they were powerless and we are more enlightened. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Kressel - A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[I am of an opinion that not everyone is meant to be a parent, and not everyone should be. I guess Chandler was, as it was usual for men, not so involved in the domestic life, and found the idea of it too mundane. I, too, am afraid of that and find it hard to understand people who have chosen domestic life (although I'm in no way judging). Do you believe that, if Chandler were more involved as a parent, he would think differently? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Kressel - The Boarding House

(view spoiler)[It depends on the character of the person involved. I know there were strong women, who found a way to covertly achieve what they wanted, but there weren't that many of them. It does not necessarily mean that we are more enlightened today, but we definitely have more freedom and more opportunities. (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Response to Samanta - A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[Why do you say he was an uninvolved father? Just because he made the kid cry in the end? Any parent can do that when he or she is in a bad mood. I don't blame the wife for getting angry and taking the kid away, and that's a strong indication that she was MORE involved, but I don't think that means that he was uninvolved emotionally or physically. (hide spoiler)]

[James]

A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[
1) I believe they haven't changed much but their circumstances have. Gallaher is a success and has what Chandler believes is an exciting life and career. He seems to be a popular person who people like. He also no longer lives in Dublin, but London. Chandler seems to be a daydreamer who regrets playing it safe. He is a father and husband, but seems to feel stuck in life and wishes he was famous and desires to be a poet. I'm not sure but Gallaher may be jealous of Chandler's family life. He avoids seeing Chandler's family and he scheme to eventually marry up is incredibly shallow. Does he on some level desire the love he believes Chandler has with his wife and child? I wonder if he is lonely.
And it is very clear Chandler wishes he was famous and lived a more exciting life. Though he wishes to do something else with his life, I believe he will continue to daydream about what he wished he did, but will continue to travel the safe path his job and family provide him. Overall though, he is not a happy man.

2) Chandler blames others for his lot in life. I couldn't disagree with his thought process more. To me, he is someone who feels sorry for himself and doesn't take responsibility for his life. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Kressel - The Boarding House

(view spoiler)[Yes, it's ok. Just put it in the proper citation format. Thank you for the recommendation. (hide spoiler)]

A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[I only said that I guessed he wasn't, as in those times it was not usual for men to be so involved due to work, while women were stay-at-home mums and wives. And the fact that he admired his friend so much, tells us that he found his life to be too mundane. At least that is how I saw it. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James - A Little Cloud

(view spoiler)[It just might be that Gallaher is jealous, just as Chandler is. Each has something the other doesn't and people always want what they don't/can't have. It's a vicious circle. Again we encounter this topic of being stuck in a loop, but not willing to do anything about it. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Four Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[1. The theme of this week's stories is marriage in all its forms. In Joyce's time and before, marriage was a contract, which enabled people to better their financial and social position, and love was rarely part of the equation. Do you agree? How much have things changed in the past 100 years?

2. In the stories, Dublin is always depicted as a bleak, restricting place, while the rest of the world is where "life truly begins". Do you think this reflects Joyce's personal opinions? And if so, why did he decide to immortalise it in his work? Can you draw a comparison between him and his characters?

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Hello, everyone!! We are slowly coming to the end of week four. I am listing here the reading assigned for next week (week five). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.

FEBRUARY 13TH THROUGH FEBRUARY 19TH
Counterparts 61
Clay 71

[Samanta]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Five

(view spoiler)[Counterparts

A disappointed-in-life copy clerk in a law firm leaves work after insulting his boss to spend time in a pub drinking his money away.



Clay

Maria, an old cook, hurries from work to buy presents for her loved ones and spend Hallow Eve with them.

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Five Discussion Questions - Counterparts

(view spoiler)[1. What kind of a person/boss is Mr Alleyne? How does he treat the "hero" of this story? Do you think that the treatment is reserved just for Farrington or is it his usual behaviour? Why do you think he has such a reaction to him?

2. "A spasm of rage gripped his throat for a few moments and then passed, leaving after it a sharp sensation of thirst. The man recognised the sensation and felt that he must have a goodnight's drinking."
Would you say Farrington is an alcoholic? Do you think that he would classify himself as such? Do you think that his addiction has any impact on his behaviour? Give examples.



3. It is obvious Farrington is a man deeply unhappy and dissatisfied with his life. Do you think that his actions at the end of the story are a result of this unhappiness, or of his character? Do you think that discontent is an excuse for abuse and why is it that our loved ones always seem to bear the brunt of our dissatisfaction? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Five Discussion Questions - Clay

(view spoiler)[1. Unlike the previous story, here our protagonist is an older woman. Who is she, what kind of a person is she and what does Joyce do to paint a picture of her? Compare the two stories.



2. What is the overall atmosphere of the story? Again, compare it to the previous one. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

How are we coming with these next stories folks?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Five Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[1. This week's readings are both written in third-person, with some differences as well as similarities. Can you point out the differences and/or the similarities?



2. Have you noticed how the stories are written as a fast-paced description of a chain of events, often small and seemingly insignificant, but which help paint the overall picture.

Why do you think Joyce used this type of narrative? How did it affect your understanding/ enjoyment of the stories? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks I have already posted the weekly wrap up questions for Week Five previously.

Hello, everyone!! We are slowly coming to the end of week five. I am listing here the reading assigned for next week (week six). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.

Next week is Week Six.

The syllabus for next week is the following - pagination will vary depending upon the edition used:

The following is the assignment for Week Six:

FEBRUARY 20TH THROUGH FEBRUARY 26TH
A Painful Case 77
Ivy Day in the Committee Room 85

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I look forward to reading your posts.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Six

(view spoiler)[A Painful Case

Mr. James Duffy, a bank clerk, lives a solitary life full of harsh, self-imposed rules until, one day, he meets a woman who piques his interest.



Ivy Day in the Committee Room

On Ivy Day, a group of political canvassers, working for a mayoral candidate in the city council elections, gather in the National Party committee room to warm up from the cold, drink together, talk politics, and await their wage payment.



(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Six Discussion Questions - A Painful Case

(view spoiler)[1. Based on the description of James Duffy, his apartment, his job and his habits, what kind of a person do you think he is? Do you like him?

2. How is his relationship with Mrs. Sinico described? Do you think their relationship was innocent (not sexual)? Do you consider Mrs. Sinico to be a cheater? What do you consider an act of cheating?



3. What is Duffy's first reaction upon hearing of Mrs. Sinico's death? What does it say about him as a person? Does his reaction change by the end of the story? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Six Discussion Questions - Ivy Day in the Committee Room

(view spoiler)[1. Are you familiar with the term Ivy Day? Do you know what it represents?


Charles Stuart Parnell

2. This is the first story in the collection in which Joyce openly discuses politics in Ireland. What are the views presented in the story? Do you think those were Joyce's own views?

3. Does the discussion at hand make the men strive to make a change? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Six Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[1. In this week's reading we see two different classes of Dublin's society. How are they different? How are they similar?



2. Do the stories read make you form an opinion on Joyce and his views? How did he see the Irish as a nation? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello, I have placed all of this week's questions up - are some of you behind or have you gone ahead?

Try your hand at this week's questions on these two stories and tell us a little bit about what you liked or didn't like about them.

We are at the point this week for the weekly wrap up questions.

Those of you who are just joining - just jump right in and post.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello, everyone!! We have come to the end of week six. I am listing here the reading assigned for next week (week seven). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.

Next week is Week Seven.

The syllabus for next week is the following - pagination will vary depending upon the edition used:

FEBRUARY 27TH THROUGH MARCH 5TH
A Mother 99
Grace 109

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Seven

(view spoiler)[A Mother

As the assistant secretary to the Eire Abu, or “Ireland to Victory,” Society, Mr. Holohan tries to organize a series of concerts showcasing local musicians, he visits Mrs. Kearney, whose eldest daughter Kathleen has a reputation in Dublin as a talented pianist and exemplary speaker of Irish.



Grace

A man has fallen down a flight a stairs in a central Dublin pub and is briefly unconscious. Two men and a pub employee carry the man upstairs, and they, along with the manager and the crowd already assembled in the bar, try to figure out what happened.

(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Please feel free to post regarding these stories. The interaction and discussion is what makes these discussions fun - so post your ideas and responses to the questions posted.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Seven Discussion Questions - A Mother - Mrs. Kearney

(view spoiler)[1. What kind of a woman is Mrs. Kearney? Do you consider her to be a good woman/wife/mother? Do you think that, all the effort she is putting in promoting her daughter's career is for her daughter's sake?



2. "They thought they had only a girl to deal with and that, therefore, they could ride roughshod over her. But she would show them their mistake. They wouldn’t have dared to have treated her like that if she had been a man. But she would see that her daughter got her rights: she wouldn’t be fooled."

Do you think this is the real case here, or is it something Mrs. Kearney imagined? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I seem to be posting questions without folks weighing in - are you all done with the read? Even if that is so please at any time join in and respond to the questions - we always want to hear your input.

Week Seven Discussion Questions - A Mother - The Irish

(view spoiler)[3. What do you know about the Irish Revival?




4. In this story we have a woman who is bent on achieving her goals opposed to members of the Committee who are not bothered to give an effort. Based on what you've read in other stories, do you think this to be Joyce's critique of the Irish and the society of the time (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Seven Discussion Questions - Grace

(view spoiler)[1. The story starts with our protagonist lying in the dirt after falling down. Can you find any symbolism in this scene and the description of the protagonist's life of late?



2. How do Mr. Kernan's friends try to help him get back on track? Why is it that people, after falling down in life, go to church and religion, even though they might not have been big believers before? Why is religion so attractive to people? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Week Seven Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[In this weeks reading we have three recurring themes, the importance of marriage, the importance of social status and making peace with your lot in life.

1. Why was (and still is) the act of marrying someone important to people? Why do people marry, even though they might not really love their partner? What does marriage mean to you?

2. Why is social standing and other people's opinion so important to people? Why do we strive to gain positive opinion from other people, especially ones who are not really important in our lives?



3. Finally, why do people just make peace with what was given to them in life? In our stories both Mrs. Kearney and Mrs. Kernan married for the sake of being married and came to peace with not being worse off in life (because it could always be worse). Where did we get that attitude towards life from? Do you consider it healthy for a person to be thinking like that? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello, everyone!! We are coming to the end of week seven. I am listing here in advance the last reading assigned and that will be for next week (week eight). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.

Next week is Week Eight - the last week of the Dubliners.

The syllabus for next week is the following - pagination will vary depending upon the edition used:

MARCH 6TH THROUGH MARCH 12TH
The Dead 127

NOTES 161

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You are on the home stretch - I took over for Samanta who was one of the assisting moderators in training - Samanta had to take care of some personal situations and is away for multiple reasons. She did a great job at the beginning of this buddy read and there were many enthusiastic contributors. I would like to lead another buddy read on another Irish iconic author and would like your input. I personally have never tackled Ulysses but that is another James Joyce work. Is there another iconic author and work that you might like to tackle or a non fiction selection or biography or even autobiography which would be worthwhile taking up as a group read which would help us on the way to fulfilling the Ireland challenge. Or a book about Ireland that is top notch. Here is your chance to voice your suggestions if you have any. Otherwise I will make the selection.

[Kressel]

by Tim Pat Coogan (no photo)

I nominate the above. The history of the famine is one of the clearest examples of British mistreatment of the Irish, which of course is also about Protestant vs. Catholic and rich vs. poor. One reviewer drew the parallel between the famine and the current Christian right. I don't know if the author makes a connection between the famine and Paul Ryan's attempt to privatize the social safety net, but the reviewer surely did, and that piqued my curiosity. I intend to read the book as part of my challenge, even if the rest of the group doesn't want to.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thank you Kressel - I hope to hear from others too - have you finished the Dubliners or are you on pause?

I am going to nominate Ulysses (just one nomination) - everybody can nominate a book based upon what I laid out in 342 and then we can circle back and look at the completed nominated list.

by James Joyce

The only downside on the book that I nominated is that we are almost done with a book by the same author. So it might be best to select another book. But I would like to get through Ulysses at some point in time.

[Kressel]

I'm a little behind on it.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is OK - when you catch up just post on those questions - catching up or being behind is not an issue at the HBC - we are always here.

[Kressel]

I left off at "Ivy Day in the Committee Room." Definitely the most confusing story. I had to read it twice, and I'm still not sure what to make of it.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Did you try your attempt at the questions?

Maybe this might help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Day...

Think of paralysis as in Joyce's world that represented Ireland.

Here is an adaptation:

https://youtu.be/8nzy10t3fq8

Note: I updated the link.

It was humorous in the adaptation that they said you should not trust the polls. And you have to love that you can trust folks who have motives but not ones without motives. Joyce is focused on religion and Ireland like all of the other stories. However the adaptation sort of depicted pollsters and campaign workers as they probably are - willing to promote anybody if they are getting paid and changing their tune if necessary - Kellianne Conway came to mind being a bit like O'Connor.

[Kressel]

Well, I watched it, and I'm still confused. I can't keep track of who is on whose side.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is the point - they are in bed with each other and just hired "talking heads" - spin doctors - they really have no integrity whatsoever and will work for whomever. It doesn't make any difference who they work for - it doesn't mean anything to them since they have no ideas and it appears no ethics. They set up the one guy and knew what he was going to do. Joyce obviously thinks that they have no morals either and is commenting I guess on the sad state of affairs in Ireland - the only guy telling the truth was the janitor. Of course Joyce gets in the differences between the protestants and the catholics and also that Ireland is doing nothing about getting its independence. Joyce does not have much use for any religion but is particularly incensed by the Catholic church and its priests. It is no wonder that he had a hard time getting the stories published. I might add that he is a master of embedded humor and in the use of the English language. One of the greatest although his stories are not feel good stories.

[Helga]

Thanks for the explanation. That makes more sense now.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Glad it helped.

[Brett]

I would also be interested in reading something about the famine. An option that I have on my TBR list is The Graves Are Walking.

by John Kelly