ARCHIVE - DUBLINERS - BUDDY READ - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

All - you have gotten through week one with quite a bit of aplomb and for week two we have assigned the following reading, stories and pages. Remember the pagination will be slightly different depending upon which edition you have but that does not matter - the stories remain the same:

JANUARY 23RD THROUGH JANUARY 29TH

Araby (p 17 - 22)
Eveline (p 23 - 27)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Two - thanks to Samanta

(view spoiler)[Araby

The narrator tells about his everyday routine, going to school and playing with his friend. Part of that routine is watching his friend's older sister, who he is infatuated with. The talk of the town is a bazaar Araby. The narrator wants to visit it to buy a gift for his friend's sister, to prove his love.


A bazaar

Eveline

A young girl plans to escape her dull Dublin life and her violent father by eloping with a young man her father doesn't approve of.

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - message 238

(view spoiler)[You are right Mark. Those are some very beautiful descriptions. We know that Joyce went to a Catholic school where rules must have been very severe. Do you think that he described what he felt as a student?

Do any of his other works have similar rich descriptions? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - message 244

(view spoiler)[Did your experience change your opinion on the Catholic church and/or organised religion? I've never experienced corporal punishment in school (too young for that, thank God!), but some things I'd experienced, and which made an impression on my young mind, made me turn away from the Church and organised religion.

Do you think that Joyce completely turned away from his faith/religion or if he just didn't like the influence the Church had on the society? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - message 245

Mark, your whole message is in bold. I presume that something went wrong with the bold format.

(view spoiler)[We will see those other influencing motives in the upcoming weeks. Dubliners is a collection of stories about ordinary people with real-life problems and I think that Joyce used it to make a statement and talk about all the things in society he finds alarming (the influence of the Church being one of them). Do you agree? Do you think that Joyce's next protagonist rejecting Church describes his personal path towards that end? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie - message 246

(view spoiler)[Natalie, you are presenting a very interesting idea, but one that might ruffle a lot of feathers. I wouldn't quite agree with you that people literally lose their minds. In fact, a lot of kids, who were brought up in the Catholic faith and attended church every Sunday and prayed at every meal, just turn away from it all when they grow up (it happened to me). A lot of people stay and some who went away, come back when they face difficulties in life. But (and I've sensed it in some people around me), a lot of really religious people just give off a vibe of not being a part of this world, almost untouchable, and also self-righteous (as if it's their prerogative to judge people by their own standards). This is what kept me from going back. Of course, there are a lot of deeply religious people who are beautiful human beings.

Have you had that kind of experience (based on your comment)?

The discipline of children is a very tricky issue. What is your take on it? Do you agree with the corporal discipline, or do you think there are other ways of doing it? What kind of effect does corporal punishment have on adults that experienced it in childhood? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - message 248

(view spoiler)["from my experience and understanding of Christianity, the doctrine is forgiveness of sin, not punishment."

Yes, the doctrine is forgiveness of sin, but not everybody sees it that way. The problem of religion, in my opinion, is the fact that everyone takes from it what they want and hears what they want to hear (kind of like our reading of Joyce :) ). It's that ugly part of human nature which caused so many religious wars in our history (and present day, unfortunately). (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michael - message 250

(view spoiler)[Reading "The Sisters" made me think about the strain the priesthood makes on the priests. I went to church the other day and, upon seeing the priest, I asked myself how does it feel to do the same thing over and over again until you die. Unfortunately, the service in the Catholic church is rather repetitive, and I wonder if the priests have the same good feelings after years of doing it, or do they just do it automatically. It is obvious that the strain of being a priest finally caught up with Father Flynn and he got sick, both physically and mentally. It shows us the human being in him (as opposed to the representative of God on Earth we are taught he is). (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark

(view spoiler)[Thank you for all your responses so far. They have definitely given me another perspective to consider. Yes, there is a difference of opinion, but that is what makes the discussion interesting and fun. I wonder what awaits me next week. :) (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Samanta wrote: "Response to David - message 244
[Did your experience change your opinion on the Catholic church and/or organised religion?
(view spoiler)[I wandered away from the Catholic Church for over two decades, and began exploring eastern spirituality (Tao & Zen). Practices of meditation and yoga helped me abandon some of the negative and judgmental attitudes that I had taken towards Catholicism and eventually steered me in the direction of exploring the contemplative traditions of the church which had been widely forgotten in recent centuries. I reconnected with the church, joined the choir and it all felt brand new. (hide spoiler)]

Do you think that Joyce completely turned away from his faith/religion or if he just didn't like the influence the Church had on the society?
(view spoiler)[At this point in his writing career, I don't think Joyce had completely turned away from the Catholic Church or his faith but was exploring his feelings of rebellion through his writing. I haven't read his other works, it will be interesting to move through them chronologically and see how his attitudes toward the church develop. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David

(view spoiler)[That is wonderful, David. I'm glad things turned out for the better.

I am definitely considering reading his other work, but I am wary of the stream of consciousness style of writing (not really my thing), and I've heard Ulysses is written in that style.

by James Joyce (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Mark wrote: "Response to Samanta - Message #266
[spoilers removed]"

Yes, Sir! :)

[Samanta]

Response to Mark

(view spoiler)[That pretty much sounds like an every other young person's opinion. Although, young generations of today have it much easier. There are no that many restrictions (but that is a totally different debate). (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Mark wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Mark wrote: "Response to Samanta - Message #266
[spoilers removed]"

Yes, Sir! :)"
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound authoritarian, and, well, male. - )"

No apology necessary. It was funny. But, I will listen to your advice.

[David]

Hello all, Dave from Lincoln NE. I'm moving from the "maybe" to the "yes". I tend to be a non-fiction, history reader so historical fiction and classic authors sometimes are more challenging for me. It's helped reading through the discussion on this and also have enjoyed watching the film interpretations after reading. (view spoiler)[ One of the things I really agree with many posters on is the author really does leave things up to interpretation. This is very much the case with both The Sisters and The Encounter. I found both of them to be somewhat dark and a little vague. I'm looking forward to the conversations in this group as I continue on. The reading discussions in this group have rarely let me down. (hide spoiler)].

[Brett]

I just finished the book. Once I started I couldn't stop, but I will continue to participate in the discussion questions as the pop up. :)

[Samanta]

Welcome David! Looking forward to your participation.

[Samanta]

Folks, we are starting the new week of our discussion. This week we are reading Araby and Eveline.

Week Two Discussion Questions – Araby - Narration

(view spoiler)[1. As in the first two stories, we have a first-person point of view. Do you find that helpful for getting into the story, or is it off-putting to you? Which is your preferred POV and why?

2. Our narrator is again a boy, who lives with an aunt and an uncle, almost as if Joyce is using the same character in all three stories. Where do you think Joyce drew inspiration from? Could there be some autobiographical aspects to the stories?

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - Araby

(view spoiler)[I agree that POV is not a decisive factor when reading a book, but sometimes, reading from a first-person point of view helps me understand what is going on inside the head of a character mich better than a descriptive third-person POV. (hide spoiler)]

No, they are still not up, but they will be in the upcoming days.

[Michele]

Response to Discussion Questions – Araby

(view spoiler)[
1. As in the first two stories, we have a first-person point of view. Do you find that helpful for getting into the story, or is it off-putting to you? Which is your preferred POV and why?

I am flexible regarding POV, so first person works for me. I can get into the narrator's way of thinking easier that way.

2. Our narrator is again a boy, who lives with an aunt and an uncle, almost as if Joyce is using the same character in all three stories. Where do you think Joyce drew inspiration from? Could there be some autobiographical aspects to the stories?

I think this the the last of the "childhood" stories. It does feel like it might me the same character, but I think they might be representing different social backgrounds.

Joyce might have drawn inspiration from his own childhood, with the characters representing different friends and/or himself.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michele - Araby

(view spoiler)[Yes, sometimes first-person POV does help to understand the story better. I guess it also depends on the book.

In what way do you think they are presenting different social backgrounds? Are there any indicators in the text? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Araby - Plot twists

(view spoiler)[1. There are two main themes in this story, the narrator's infatuation with his friend's sister and the Araby bazaar. What purpose to the above mentioned have in the development of the main character?


North Richmond Street, Dublin

2. What happens at the end of the story? Does the story have a happy ending? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Sarah

Welcome, Sarah! It's never too late to start. We have just started with Week Two, so you have more than enough time to catch up.

(view spoiler)[I am sorry you had an experience like that in your family and I understand the fear completely (I lost my mom to cancer 6 years ago). I believe there is no worse thing for a person than to lose control of his/her faculties after being active all life. It can really mess with a person mentally and emotionally. What do you think went on in Father Flynn's head after becoming ill? (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Araby Discussion Question

(view spoiler)[ [1. There are two main themes in this story, the narrator's infatuation with his friend's sister and the Araby bazaar. What purpose to the above mentioned have in the development of the main character?
I think that his love for the unnamed girl is connected with the concept of the "initiation" or "quest" story. Like James Joyce, the person, this boy must try to disentangle himself from the web of Dublin society and the church. The girl represents the "personal" and the failed bazaar represents the "public" (even the political, I would argue).

I recall hearing that such a bazaar came to Dublin when Joyce was young and he was interested in it.
(hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

RE: Samanta Msg 283 - Araby

(view spoiler)[
In what way do you think they are presenting different social backgrounds? Are there any indicators in the text?

I am not thinking of major differences, only minor ones that were so important in that era. Narrator of "An Encounter" is going to a religious school, which seems to indicate a slighter high social/economic background. Over all though, I think the stories, so far, seem to be set in the lower end of the social/economic scale, and this includes "Eveline". (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie - Araby Discussion Question

Natalie, your whole post is in bold. Can you check what happened?

(view spoiler)[I can see what you mean about the "initiation" and "quest". This is, I presume, the narrators first infatuation, the one that makes us lose our heads and not think of anything else. The object of desire is also very typical, a friend's older beautiful sister. He is afraid to speak to her, but is willing to do something to get her attention (in this instance go the the Bazaar to buy her something). The last sentence in the story describes his growth perfectly, I think:

"Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger."

He understood that it was a fool's errand.

You said: "Like James Joyce, the person, this boy must try to disentangle himself from the web of Dublin society and the church. ........the failed bazaar represents the "public" (even the political, I would argue)."

I'm not sure I understood what you meant. Can you, please, elaborate? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michele - Araby

Do you think that only people of higher social standing went to religious schools? I'm honestly not sure. Do you happen to have that information?

I agree with you that he, so far, describes the lives of lover social classes. I guess he considered them to have more serious issues to deal with in their everyday life.

[Samanta]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Eveline

(view spoiler)[1. This is the first story with a third-person POV, and the main character is a girl, Eveline. What kind of life is Eveline leading? Is she happy with it?

2. What decision is Eveline trying to make in the story? What are the pros and cons? Can you already guess what Eveline's feelings are towards Frank?



3. What happens at the end of the story? How do you think Eveline's decision will affect her life from now on? What do you think happens to her after the end of the story? (hide spoiler)]

[David]

EVELINE [1. This is the first story with a third-person POV, and the main character is a girl, Eveline. What kind of life is Eveline leading? Is she happy with it?
(view spoiler)[She is leading a hard life: A life of running a household, working a job that she dislikes, and helping to raise two younger siblings. Add to this an unpredictable father whom she fears could become violent with her and drinks to excess on Saturday nights and who rules the house like a tyrant who treats his daughter with little or no respect. Joyce's theme of paralysis is developed once again in this story but this time with an even deeper intensity. Almost the entire story focuses on her trying to decide which situation will provide the most happiness for her. She craves respect, and desperately fears living the pitiful life that her mother lived.

I was surprised to learn that she was only 19 years old. With all the responsibility saddled on her, I imagined her to be in her mid 30s. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Eveline

(view spoiler)[This is my favourite story so far. I think a lot of people can relate to Eveline. We want something better for ourselves, but we fear change. I am actually not surprised at her age. A lot of girls in those times were saddled with responsibility at a very young age. Do you believe Frank had good intentions or if her father was right? What do you think made her father react badly to the romance with Frank? Were you surprised at the ending of the story? (hide spoiler)]

[David]

David response to Samanta
(view spoiler)[ I think her father recognized that a serious relationship with a sailor was risky for his self-preservation. He was manipulative with her about the money she earned, and it seems after the death of the mother, he had no part in bringing up his younger children, pushing all this on to Eveline. I think his opposition to her relationship was based on his fear of losing her services to the family.
Frank seemed to be the happy-go-lucky, carefree type. Was this true love on his part, or was it the case of a sailor with a girl in every port? I don't know but if he continued his life as a sailor, he certainly wouldn't be home much.
I was not surprised by the ending. As she was going through the pros and cons of her discernment the night before the planned departure, the flood of memories of the house, the neighborhood, and her mother and the deathbed promise she had made to her seemed to me to be tipping the scales in the favor of aborting the plan. I think the prayers the next morning while her and Frank were on the dock, where for the strength to carry out the decision she had made the night before. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Eveline, #2, Can you already guess what Eveline's feelings are towards Frank?
(view spoiler)[I think she saw in Frank a pathway that could take her to a new life where she thought she would be happy and respected all the time. I'm not sure it was Frank himself that she loved but more the escape that he represented. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Eveline Comments

(view spoiler)[
Eveline kinda made me feel sad. She is stuck in a hard life where at age 19, she is running a household, raising younger siblings, with a job she hates and an abusive, manipulative father. Frank represented an escape from that life and she was unable to grab it. Old promises made to a dying mother held her back, leaving her with a type of paralysis, unable to move forward and live her own life. She is still finishing out her mothers. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Eveline

(view spoiler)[I agree with you on everything you said in your last two posts. I believe Eveline's father was more afraid of losing a housewife and a money provider than a daughter. Frankly, if I were here, I would have wanted to escape, too. But, using just anyone to achieve that is not an answer. Frank might have turned out to be a completely decent guy who genuinely had feeling fro her. It was obvious she didn't feel the same for him, and it wouldn't have been fair. Do you believe that she ever managed to get out of this paralysis? After all, she was 19 and people grow. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michele

(view spoiler)[Do you think that only a promise to hr mother held her back from grabbing the opportunity? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Two Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[1. How do you feel about the sudden change of POV and the sex of the character in this week's stories? Do you think that Joyce successfully shifted from the head of a young boy to the head of a young adult girl? Is Joyce, in your opinion, in general successful in bringing closer the turmoil happening in his characters' heads and hearts?

2. What are the characters trying to escape from in all of the stories you've read so far? Are they successful?

(hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

In re my message 246:

(view spoiler)[ Looking back at this, I see how I very ineptly phrased my thoughts: I meant to say that to maintain strict adherence to the religion when a person is compromised (for example by having had a stroke, by being an alcoholic, by having too little money) can cause a person to act out. I regret that I put it the way I did. I also am thinking of the stories coming up---that the Church is part of the larger themes of the Dubliners. And in some ways the people ignore the teachings of the church and the guilt that they feel causes their weaknesses to become stressed. I apologize most sincerely for my absolutely dreadful and misleading phrasing.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie

(view spoiler)[Yes, religion plays a major role in the collection as a whole. When a person is compromised, as you put it, the Church represents a reprimanding parent or a judge, making people lash out and go on the defensive (especially if they are not in that place yet, where they realise they are doing something wrong in their lives). (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Re: Samanta Msg 298 - Eveline

(view spoiler)[
Nope. A fear of the future without family (such as they are) played into it as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mike - we do not allow links like that - here are what our citation rules and guidelines look like for that book:

by Gary Soto

There is also a thread called the Mechanics of the Board thread which is in the Help Desk folder which will help you.

Additionally we use spoiler html - look at Michelle's post - message 304

Directions are in messages 2, 3 and 8 and there are many reminders throughout the thread.

We realize that you are new and have to get the hang of things and we are here to help. One of your posts was an oops and the other basically stated the following paraphrased:

(view spoiler)[Dubliners reminds me of Baseball in April by Soto. (hide spoiler)]

[Mike]

Thank you. I'll get the hang of this yet!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mike I know you will - no worries.

[Samanta]

Hello, everyone!! We are slowly coming to the end of week two. I am listing here the reading assigned for next week (week three). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.


JANUARY 30TH THROUGH FEBRUARY 5TH
After the Race 27
Two Gallants 33

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

James are you practicing (lol)?

[James]

Evelyn

(view spoiler)[This is the first James Joyce book I've ever read, so feel free to let me have it if I'm missing any major points.

There are many references to the life she knows and a very obvious fear of change.
Evelyn remembers a field that she used to play in with all the other kids in her neighborhood, but a man from Belfast has built new houses over it. She also notes other changes that she has no control over, specifically friends and family dying and leaving.

The smell of a dusty cretonne (and yes I had to look up the definition of cretonne) is referenced in the beginning and later in the story, she inhales it while noting how little time she has left of the only life she knows. She plans to elope with her fiancé, Frank, and go to Buenos Aires . To me it is one of many signs that she is scared of change and almost literally clinging to her old life before she leaves.

It makes clear that she leads a demanding life with few rewards. Her father is abusive, and getting worse. Her job is tough and doesn't pay that well, she is responsible for 2 younger children.

I also believe she doesn't want to live a life like her mother and feels obligated to stay because of a promise on her mother's deathbed to take care of the house for as long as she could. Wondering if she really feels obligated or if she is just looking for reasons to stay.

Yet despite all her misfortunes, she freezes up at the last possible moment and will not go aboard the ship to take her away to her new life.
I assume that this is representative of the choices confronting many young Irelanders during this time. (hide spoiler)]

[James]

Bentley wrote: "James are you practicing (lol)?"

You caught me, first time I've put in the spoiler alert.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mark and James - do not use the reply function because it is exposing the spoiler text. Could you both fix 310 and 312 (Mark) and 311 (James) - Or if you use the reply function - just delete the text that is carried over that was in spoilers. Not sure why the goodreads software is not honoring the spoiler html with the reply. Just be careful. First time I noticed that.

What I do when replying to a person simply do the following:

@Mark or @James

[Samanta]

Response to James - Eveline

(view spoiler)[There are no wrong answers in this discussion, only sharing of different ideas. You wouldn't miss anything even if you wanted to. :)

Everything you said is to the point, but I wouldn't limit this to young Irish of the time. I think that every person her age, and well up to 30, face these kinds of (in)decisions. Do you think that her decision to stay home was also an excuse not to go with Frank (and not just the fear of change)? Do you get the feeling that (even before the end) she wasn't really attached to him? (hide spoiler)]

[Carlton]

Hi I am sorry that I am a about a week behind in contributing, although I have been reading the discussion as it has developed.
Week One Discussion Questions - The Sisters
(view spoiler)[
Atmosphere: Although I found the atmosphere of the story sombre, the narrator was also curious of his own reactions. The sombreness you would expect from, as David @101 said, a boy narrating what was presumably the death of probably the first person that he has known who was close to him (as he is growing up with his aunt and uncle, it would appear that his parents have died). But as others have noted, he is also feeling relief a sensation of freedom, although it is interesting that this is described as only a sensation, not freedom itself.
Traditions: I come from the Isle of Man (close to Ireland) and certainly the customs 20 years ago were still close to those described in the story, although the tradition of visiting the open coffin of the dead person in their home to pay respects is becoming less common.
Death of Reverend Flynn : It appears that Reverend Flynn died following his third stroke. The other characters in the story speculate that for the Reverend Flynn, his illness, which perhaps made him drop and break the chalice, was made worse because he could no longer perform his priestly duties, as David @129 said. His sister says: He was too scrupulous always, she said. The duties of the priesthood was too much for him.
(As others have said, I think this is better described as gossip rather than the talk of the town)
The relationship between the priest and the narrator: I think that the priest was genuinely interested in the boy for his potential for the church.
As I understand it, Reverend Flynn dropped the chalice when celebrating the Roman Catholic Eucharist (so explaining the reference to the (altar) boy). Although I fleetingly wondered whether the priest might be a paedophile, I suspect that this might come from our modern preconceptions, rather than what the author was trying to imply.
The uncle and Mr Cotter’s unfinished sentences: I think that this is about the perceived dangers of education on impressionable youths. There is an upspoken “but” after the uncle’s Education is all very fine and large. …. What those dangers might be is left open for the reader, making the story more powerful.
Why The Sisters?: I think that the choice of title is really interesting, and makes them prominent, when otherwise the story might be read as about the priest and the narrator.
(hide spoiler)]

This is my first buddy read and I find reading other people’s opinions does challenge my reading, and is making me read the stories more closely. Thanks to all.

[James]

Bentley,

I deleted my response, we good?