ARCHIVE - DUBLINERS - BUDDY READ - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Samanta]

Response to Mark

(view spoiler)[I think many of us here have come to a conclusion that Joyce left it open for us to take the story where we want. He left only hints. So, I guess, there is no evidence. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

RE: to Samanta - Paralysis
(view spoiler)[

Entirely different. Stuck on a train vs an open area? Narrator of "An Encounter" may have been trained to be polite to old people and just didn't know what to do about the creepy old man. Its still a form of paralysis. I do think you can grow out of it though. I got stuck on a plane with a drunk pervert who kept harassing me. By the time I got the flight attendents to move him, EVERYONE on the plane knew what was going on. I was angry and not holding back. I paid to get from point A to point B, not to get sexually harassed! (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

@Mark

(view spoiler)[Mark there was a critical article that I read that pointed out the change in diction. If I can find it - I will post it - I might have done it already in the glossary thread. Also he toned down the specifics which you folks are discussing for The Sisters. I think it actually made it more powerful to have readers make their own judgements. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mark I would have posted it - and I don't have time to go through all of the posts - but I am sure it is there:

(view spoiler)[I think many feel that this is the case about the old priest - in some ways I felt it was too. I thought there were many clues. But every reader can make up their own minds. It is good for everybody to have their own reading experience without having to rely on critical reviewers or the many critiques of Joyce that there are. I think getting through a Joyce book is an accomplishment for the novice so the main point is reading it the first time - the next time you read it - you always wonder - wow - I missed this and that. (hide spoiler)]

Here is the Irish Homestead version:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Si...

Also this might help - available in part on google:
by Kevin J.H. Dettmar (no photo)

(view spoiler)[Here is another explanation on wikipedia:

In summer of 1904, George Russell of the editorial department of the weekly paper The Irish Homestead wrote Joyce a letter in regards to a section of the journal called "Our Weekly Story":

Dear Joyce,

Look at the story in this paper The Irish Homestead. Could you write anything simple, rural?, livemaking?, pathos?, which could be inserted so as not to shock the readers. If you could furnish a short story about 1800 words suitable for insertion the editor will pay £1. It is easily earned money if you can write fluently and don't mind playing to the common understanding and liking for once in a way. You can sign it any name you like as a pseudonym. Yours sincerely

Geo. W. Russell (Letters 43)[1]
Joyce took the offer, and ″The Sisters″ was published on 13 August 1904 using the pseudonym Stephen Dædulus, a name given to one of Joyce's semi-autobiographical literary characters in his later novels A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and Ulysses. ″The Sisters″ was the start of a series called Dubliners that he hoped the Homestead would continue to publish. In fact, Joyce would write two more stories for the Homestead, ″Eveline″ and ″After the Race,″ before complaints stopped the paper from publishing any more of his stories.[2] Joyce, nevertheless, continued to add more stories to the collection. But, he had great difficulty getting Dubliners published, and it wasn't until 1914 that the first edition of the book came out. During that decade, ″The Sisters″ went through a number of revisions.[3]

The two published versions have essentially the same plot. The diction, however, was transformed from a romantic style to a wholly modernist text. [4] The Homestead version spelled much out for the reader. In the 1914 version, on the other hand, Joyce dropped the non-essential commentary leaving the facts to speak for themselves, a style Joyce called "scrupulous meanness."[5] Readers are left to interpret and feel the bare facts for themselves. The style demands a greater engagement by the reader who must now provide more interpretation of the facts.

Other changes were made to characterisation and relationships. In particular, Joyce severely strengthened the relationship between the priest and the boy making it stand out as a memorable feature of the story.[6] (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Encounter /games as a child / did I ever skip school......

(view spoiler)[ I remember two of our most often used words that brought us into the world of play were "let's pretend". From that jumping off point we had the power to become war heroes, Babe Ruth hitting home runs, bus drivers, or spy's. During the winter after a snowfall we played a game called cops and robbers on our flexible flyer sleds on a hilly avenue that the town closed off from auto traffic so kids could have fun. I don't know if there is that same sense of creativity in the one who plays in these times. Probably there is a feeling of adventure in playing some of today's video games, but it's a packaged adventure that comes to you rather than you going out to pursue the adventure.

I only remember skipping school once to pursue an adventure along with a couple of friends. We drove into New York City, bought tickets and attended a matinee at the the Palace Theatre on Broadway. The play was "Applause", a stage adaptation of the movie "All about Eve."
(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

@Mark

(view spoiler)[ No I think quite the contrary - Joyce obviously needed money and he had a dickens of a time being published especially in Catholic Ireland - and the readers of the magazines or whatever were complaining about the subject matter, themes, implications and even the author. I surmise he was forced to adopt a more inconclusive way of expressing his ideas and beliefs in his writing about the Catholic Church. I guess he had to adapt or tone down his approach to sensitive subjects and/or become a better writer which he did do.

Joyce can write whatever he wants just like any author could at any period in history - but that does mean you are going to find a publisher.

I think for the most part - a lot of people have sensed a certain opinion or belief as to what Joyce intended.

Many of them are well respected scholars and professors.

But like I said I have no dog in this hunt - but I will bring to the table the different references out there or aides that I find that might assist.

Everybody should have the read that they want. If you were at Yale and your professor felt this way or that - it might be best to agree with them (lol) or you better have one heck of a written argument. But we are not Yale and we are a friendly group and everybody is entitled to their own opinions and we are OK with that. But we do post what others say just as a point of discussion/conjecture in the glossary. You asked and I tried to come up with what was out there (a few sources). Good luck. This seems to be a lively discussion so far. (hide spoiler)]

[James]

I joined this group to open myself up to new ideas and literature that I wouldn't read unless I was a member of a group exactly like this one.

This is a different style than I'm used to and I'm still trying to relate to all the stories.

These are incredibly short stories and can end very suddenly.

I'm still trying to understand the underlying meaning of each one.

I'll probably have to re-read this book to try to get a better understanding of the overall life in Ireland through James Joyce's eyes, but I think the effort will be well worth it.

Anyone else having a similar experience?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

James wrote: "I joined this group to open myself up to new ideas and literature that I wouldn't read unless I was a member of a group exactly like this one.

This is a different style than I'm used to and I'm st..."

James take advantage of the glossary thread which has some enactments of the stories and see if they help - I have added a lot of aides. We have also added a bunch of films and podcasts about Joyce etc which will help you understand the author and writer.

Also start using the spoiler html - if you need some help on this let us know - look back at the beginning of the thread and there are some helpful posts. Just hang in there.

[Samanta]

Response to Sarah - Father Flynn

(view spoiler)[That could very well be the truth, but you know that people can sometimes spread rumours without any basis. That's the thing with Joyce, though. He leaves everything open for interpretation. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark

(view spoiler)[As this is my first encounter with Joyce, I am not familiar with what the Joyce Scholarship does. Of the two of us, you are the expert here, and that's why I appreciate your point of view and your contribution to the discussion. By all means, keep the balance. We welcome all the possible theories, as it keeps the discussion going. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michelle - Paralysis

(view spoiler)[The last encounter I had I made it a hell for him, so I will agree with you on this, you can grow out of it. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - The order of composition

(view spoiler)[ In the spoiler thread for Dubliners, Bentley posted an article which contains Joyce's letter to the publisher. In this letter, Joyce states that he had "tried to present it to the indifferent public under four of its aspects: childhood, adolescence, maturity and public life." This goes along with the published order of the stories. Do you know why was the original composition different? (hide spoiler)]

[Michael]

Mark wrote: "[spoilers removed]" RE: Remarks regarding Father Flynn

(view spoiler)[I have to agree with Mark's comments on this topic. Evidence for a "pedophilic interpretation" is lacking. In spite of news out of the church in the past number of years we cannot allow ourselves to come to the belief that a mentoring relationship between and older person and a child (male or female) is impossible without there being something untoward occurring. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Childhood games

(view spoiler)[I remember well the "Let's pretend...". It gave us all sorts of ideas and it kept us outside in the fresh air till evening hours. Today, I see less and less children outside, and if I do, they are very small and they do not yet know about computers and such, or they are outside throwing firecrackers. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Michael

(view spoiler)[Thank you for joining and for your response. Everyone is welcome to share their opinion on the stories and no one will be judged for it.

As for the evidence...I cannot say that I am not at least a bit influenced by my opinion of the Church because that would be a lie, but when I read any story, I rely on to what the story makes me feel, and in this story, I felt that something was not quite right. Again, this is my opinion and is no way the only right one. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

James wrote: "I joined this group to open myself up to new ideas and literature that I wouldn't read unless I was a member of a group exactly like this one.

This is a different style than I'm used to and I'm st..."


Welcome James! Glad you decided to join us. Take your time with the reading. The thread is always open for new comments.

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - The encounter

(view spoiler)["how the vividness of the narrative can evoke a multitude of different responses from the readers."

There, you wrote is yourself. This is what we have been debating for the past few post. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

(view spoiler)[Every reader can have their own interpretation and what you read can have an independent reaction but you make a good point - better to hear from the writer himself (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Response to Sarah: Education

(view spoiler)[
Thank you for your comment. I think that education is a theme that will run through many of the stories. Joyce himself was well-educated and valued education. Certainly the benefits and drawbacks of being highly educated will become a major issue. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

I have a general wish: I think it's fantastic that there are over 200 comments but it's difficult to find the discussion questions (they are in comments 89-92 I think). I wonder if the discussion questions could be "pinned" someplace or if periodically somebody could remind us of where to find them?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Aaron hi - we use spoilers on this thread - this is a single thread discussion and is non spoiler - we also have a spoiler thread but this is not it. Please read messages 2, 3 and 8 - I have taken the liberty to include your post in spoilers so as not to ruin things for folks coming along.

(view spoiler)[The overall atmosphere is the Catholic sacramental nature of death and its solemnity that accompanies an Irish lad
like James Joyce. This ambience is captured in Samanthas second question about the light on the eyes.
I was wondering who the narrartor's aunt was related.? (hide spoiler)]

We are glad to have you with us for the discussion and your welcome post indicated that you are not a newcomer to Joyce - that is great because we can all learn from each other. You will get the hang of the spoiler html which is used on single thread discussions in no time. If you have any problems ask Samanta for assistance

[Samanta]

Natalie wrote: "I have a general wish: I think it's fantastic that there are over 200 comments but it's difficult to find the discussion questions (they are in comments 89-92 I think). I wonder if the discussion q..."

Unfortunately, I cannot pin them to the top, but I can remind you where they are. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Samanta]

Mark wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Mark - The order of composition


Thank you, Mark!

[Samanta]

Folks, as suggested by Natalie (and backed up by Mark), I am reminding you that this week's discussion questions can be found on page 2 of this discussion, messages 88-91. Enjoy! :)

[Aaron]

describe steps to. spoiler comply

[Aaron]

how do i get to spoiler thread?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Message 2 and 3 will help you Aaron - SAMANTA can you help out here.

[Samanta]

Aaron wrote: "describe steps to. spoiler comply"

Hello Aaron,

When you want to post something, go to this comment box. In the upper right corner of the comment box, you will see a link called "(some HTML is ok). Click on it to open a list of all the commands you can use here, like bold, underline, italic, etc. Find the instructions for the spoiler (it No. 13 on the list or the last but one). Until you get the hang of it, you can just copy paste the format. The important thing is to write your message between the two spoiler brackets or where the three dots are in the formatting tip.


This is how it looks while you are writing a message:

<spoiler>Put Text Here</spoiler>

And this is how it looks when you save your post:

(view spoiler)[Hello, Aaron. Welcome to the discussion. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Aaron wrote: "how do i get to spoiler thread?"


The spoiler thread (where we put additional material for the discussion) can be found here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Aaron]

I am not sure what defines spoiler or how to access the spoiler thread or why Bentley placed my comment in the spoiler thread. I have re-rrad "The Sisters and rereading " An encounter "
Some specific s please?

[Aaron]

what is the opening question on "An encounter" ?

[Samanta]

Aaron, since this is a single thread discussion (meaning that we discuss the whole book in one thread), your every opinion and comment on the book are treated as a spoiler, so we put everything into spoiler brackets.

[Samanta]

Aaron wrote: "what is the opening question on "An encounter" ?"

I'm afraid I don't understand your meaning. Can you, please, clarify? And please put your comment into spoiler brackets like I showed you. Thank you!

[Aaron]

The whole book is "Dubliners. Why do you have s schedule for the stories?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Aaron wrote: "I am not sure what defines spoiler or how to access the spoiler thread or why Bentley placed my comment in the spoiler thread. I have re-rrad "The Sisters and rereading " An encounter "
Some specif..."

Aaron start reading the thread and you will find out all of this information - I already posted it and if you look at the post right above yours - Samanta already gave you are link. SPOILER HTML IS USED ON THIS THREAD - look at messages 2 and 3 - look at message 220 and follow the link that Samanta posted.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Aaron wrote: "The whole book is "Dubliners. Why do you have s schedule for the stories?" Because that is the way a discussion is run here. We have a syllabus and a table of contents that we follow so that all folks can read and discuss it together. That is why we use spoiler html on this thread because it is a single thread discussion.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Aaron and others.

When you are discussing a specific story or page in the book it is best to put that header in bold and not place that in the spoiler - that way everybody who had not read that story would not launch the spoiler html.

For example:

The Sisters - page 43 (not an actual page number but an example)

(view spoiler)[What I want to discuss about that story or page number is always in a spoiler on a single thread discussion on the non spoiler thread - since this is not a multi thread discussion - you need to place your text within this spoiler html - we have also shown you how to do that. If you cannot or will not use the spoiler html - then you have to only post on a spoiler thread and this thread is not it. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Mark - An Encounter

(view spoiler)[When the narrator was alone with the stranger, the man wasn't very gracious with Mahony, and the boy just kept quiet instead of defending his friend. I would guess that he didn't have the highest opinion of him and he agreed with the stranger. He was surprised when he figured out Mahony, even though not the brightest star in the sky, had his qualities. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Mark wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Aaron and others.

When you are discussing a specific story or page in the book it is best to put that header in bold and not place that in the spoiler - that way everybody who had ..."

Yes, Mark, it is. Also, when you are answering a specific person, write which person that is. Look how I did it in message 232.

In the upper right corner of the comment box, you will see a link "(some html is ok)". Click it and there you will find instructions for bold.

[David]

ENCOUNTER #3. what is your opinion of the old man? Can you make a connection with the previous story?

(view spoiler)[ There is something menacing about the appearance of the old shabbily dressed man wearing a strange looking hat and constantly tapping his walking stick. The young narrator had probably never experienced someone who had a mental illness but this character certainly fits the criteria for someone suffering from schizophrenia. People with schizophrenia usually are not dangerous but it can be disconcerting when meeting such a person for the first time and the communication and body language, etc., fall outside of the usual norms of interaction. The boys reaction of fearful paralysis is certainly understandable especially given the age difference. This meeting was beyond the scope of adventure and the boy looked for his first opportunity to flee from this unpredictable character. At that age, I would have too.
When I compare The narrators of the two stories, it seems they are similar in age but different in temperament. Both struggled with how to relate to an aged, male character who was either physically or mentally impaired. The boy in The Sisters entered into the relationship with the priest with some apprehension, and he endured with that decision despite feelings of paralysis through the remaining days of the priest's life and it seems he received some benefit from this: he learned about his Catholic faith, and he saw how the decline and death of a person can have profound dimensions. The boy in The Encounter assesses a dangerous situation especially after his friend wanders off leaving him alone with the scary man. He breaks through his paralysis and being careful not to be rude or show his alarm, removes himself from the danger. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - An Encounter

(view spoiler)[Have you noticed how the narrator removes himself from an uncomfortable and potentially dangerous situation with calm, despite being afraid and paralysed? He doesn't run away in panic, but slowly gets up, makes and excuse and slowly walks away, no sudden movements. I think it shows a certain strength of character. I do not think I would have been so calm. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Samanta wrote: "Response to David - An Encounter

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ yes, he was fearful on the inside but effectively concealed that from the unhinged man (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You guys are ok

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Look Aaron - you can place your ideas in spoilers please - otherwise we have to delete them. We did show you how and you are not trying

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mark - I was saying that you were and the others were fine. Just do what you are doing - what you are doing with the header like I showed you - and then nobody gets anything spoiled.

I was actually referring to the on going conversation and posting referred to in 240

[David]

Wrap up #3. Joyce is emphasizing the importance of religion for the Dubliners. Can you find the themes he uses for that purpose. Can you read his overall opinion on the matter? Do you agree with it?
(view spoiler)[I think Joyce is conflicted about religion. At that time in Irish history the Catholic priest had lots of power and could be domineering within the community and in the classroom. The catholic school education was authoritarian and regimented with use of corporal punishment and verbal tongue lashings. I know this from 12 years of experience. Despite these negatives (which don't exist today) it's evident that Joyce received an excellent education. It's my opinion that he became rebellious toward the authoritarian approach in his schooling and what he observed in the Church. It's no wonder a lot of his writing reflects this rebellion. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Wrap up #3

(view spoiler)[
Perhaps these two early stories, told from the points of view of young boys, are implying that frequent exposure to the church may cause people to lose their minds and become, like Father Flynn, laughing in church, or just plain creepy like the older man in "The Encounter". Father Flynn dies a physical death but it's preceded by spiritual "unease" or even "disease".

The guy in "The Encounter" ruins the day for the boys. After he goes away and (I assume, masturbates) he talks about the need to whip and punish boys. This guy introduces the idea of sweethearts and of "softness"

The idea of whipping he brings up might be connected with the Catholic idea of punishment for sins. It might also be connected with the idea that runs through the stories that discipline and punishment are essential to bring up children.

(hide spoiler)]

[Michael]

Mark wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Folks, as suggested by Natalie (and backed up by Mark), I am reminding you that this week's discussion questions can be found on page 2 of this discussion, messages 88-91. Enjoy! :)..."

If I may be so bold. One thing I do to keep questions and comments straight is to cut and paste them to a word document. I keep moderator questions in black. My answers in red. Comments from others that I want to keep and be reminded of I cut and paste in and put them in blue. Just my way of keeping things straight in my head.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Michael wrote: "Mark wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Folks, as suggested by Natalie (and backed up by Mark), I am reminding you that this week's discussion questions can be found on page 2 of this discussion, messages 88-..."

Very good strategy for folks. Single thread discussions are harder than multi - thread to avoid spoilers but we try and your approach helps keeps things straight for you.

[Michael]

Mark wrote: "@Natalie
You make some rather strong statements in your respond.
In my reading of "The Sisters" both the boy and the priest's sister imply (by speech) that the the serious nature of the duties and..."

@Mark and Natalie RE: Msg 246/248
(view spoiler)[In msg 248 regarding the physical state of the priest Mark uses the phrase "fragile personality" I think this is a good way to refer to the priests status at the time of death. Early in the story we are given the information that the priest has suffered two previous strokes. This would have made him shaky, he would have been clumsy as a result of paralysis brought on by the strokes and speaking may have become highly difficult. While I am clergy I am not of a Catholic tradition or even a high church tradition. However, if one understands the serving of communion in this tradition it becomes easier to understand why dropping the chalice would have caused the priest to become distraught (rather than "going mad"). The blessing of the priest in Catholic traditions (if I understand correctly) causes the elements of communion (Eucharist), the wine and bread, to become the actual blood and body of Christ (this is known as transubstantiation). To drop the chalice containing even just the remnants of blessed wine would/could have caused this man to experience a deep sense of horror and embarrassment. Just a thought. (hide spoiler)]