ARCHIVE - DUBLINERS - BUDDY READ - DISCUSSION THREAD

[James]

Reply to Samantha

(view spoiler)[Hi Samantha

Yes, I believe that she liked Frank and he provided an avenue of escape for her, but there was no real passion or love. But I don't agree that she was looking for reasons to get out of going with him so much as she was looking for reasons to stay.

She was as you put indecisive, weighing options and not sure what to do. Seems to me reason was telling her to start a new life. But I guess her real love was for Ireland. When it came down to it, it really wasn't even a choice, she froze, even though change was slowly taking the Ireland she loved away from her. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Araby

(view spoiler)[
I wanted to bring up the English influence in the story. As you probably know, many Irish people wanted to be independent of England. The entire Araby Bazaar turns out to be another English scam in the view of the boy. Note that he says of the people commanding the bazaar: "I remarked their English accents and listened vaguely to their conversation."
Their conversation is banal; the price of admission is likely a way to attract people to come in and spend money! It is a sham.

And I think that lines up with the Imperialist ways that the English had of making money from the Irish people. I am not making a blanket statement here, just in regards to this episode.
(hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Araby: the priest
(view spoiler)[ In the first paragraph we learn that the street the boy lives on is "blind" --a dead end. And perhaps "blindness" is a metaphor for his fruitless quest.
I am also interested in the details of the dead priest who was "the former tenant of our house". The priest has some books which are an odd assortment: "The Abbot" by Walter Scott (an historical romance); "The Devout Communicant" (a religious book); and "The Memoirs of VIdocq"--a 19th century French police novel.

The priest is also very charitable. Could Joyce be suggesting that, as with Father Flynn in the "Sisters," those priests who read broadly and are not sticklers for religion all the time are the ones who are most acceptable?

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Carlton - The Sisters

(view spoiler)[Hello, Carlton! It's never too late to join the discussion with your own thoughts. I, too, have found that reading other people opinions challenges my own understanding of the book (and even changes some of my first impressions).

I have found one of your sentences very interesting. You said: "But as others have noted, he is also feeling relief a sensation of freedom, although it is interesting that this is described as only a sensation, not freedom itself."

Why did you find this interesting? What would be the difference in the narrator's case (or in yours if you were in his place)?

Also: "What those dangers might be is left open for the reader......"

What is your opinion on the topic of Mr Cotter's and Uncle's conversation? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James

(view spoiler)["But I guess her real love was for Ireland"

I love this and I can understand it perfectly. Stories like Eveline's (the hard life, minus the abusive parents, I hope) are becoming more common in my country and young people are leaving constantly. I can't seem to make this decision, for the reason stated in your sentence. Have you ever found yourself making a choice like that? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie - Araby

(view spoiler)[A very interesting catch, Natalie. I must admit it hasn't even occurred to me to see it that way. It was strange, though, to hear "common" English accents in a bazaar, so it certainly looks like a sham. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie - Araby: priest

(view spoiler)[Natalie, you have a good eye for the details. :)

I tend to think that all the people who read are less narrow-minded than the ones who do not because reading broadens your horizons and opens you to differences of the world. This is especially important with religious people because religion can be both liberating and constricting and can be very dangerous. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Stories' Overviews and Summaries
Week Three

(view spoiler)[After the Race

There's a car race happening in Dublin. After the race, a young man named Jimmy, goes with his wealthy and carefree friends to celebrate and spend the night in leisure.


Car racing

Two Gallants

Two young man of vague occupation, walk through the streets of Dublin, talking about women. They hatch a plan to "earn" some extra money.

(hide spoiler)]

[James]

Response to Samanta:

(view spoiler)[Good question. It can apply to a lot of different situations and the question is what will we sacrifice for love? Also, I think it is terrifying to leave what you know, I have lived in the same area my whole life. Am I afraid to leave, I think I would be. (hide spoiler)]

[Elaine]

Hi, I just found this buddy read and started reading the book. My grandmother and her family left Ireland around the time the book was written so I have always thought it would give me some insight as to their lives. I'm going to sign up for the Irish read too. Have never belonged to a buddy read or done the spoiler stuff but will do my best to smarten-up on the tech.

[Samanta]

Welcome, Elaine! We are now in Week Three of the buddy read, but it's never too late to add your thoughts.

[Samanta]

Week Three Discussion Questions - After the Race - Politics and Social Status (part one)

(view spoiler)[1. The car race finishes and there are no Irish cars anywhere near the winner's place. Instead, the Irish spectators cheer for "the cars of their friends - the French", despite other nations participating, like the English and despite the French taking "only" second and third place.

Historically speaking, why would the Irish consider the French their friends? What was the political climate of the end-of-the-19th-century Ireland?



2. Our protagonist, Jimmy, is spending his days, living at his well-to-do family's expense, enjoying life and climbing the social ladder. How did his father, a local butcher, earned his wealth? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Three Discussion Questions - After the Race - Politics and Social Status (part two)

(view spoiler)[3. At some point in the story, Jimmy enters into a short-lasting political dispute, with one of his "friends", who is English, regarding the Irish-English relations. Do you think it is really Jimmy's own opinion or is it a learned thing, taking into consideration the way his father earns the money he has?

4. Jimmy and his family try to better their position, not just financially, but also socially. His father sends him to Oxford to college and he is hanging around high-class society, trying to become one of them, but his wealth is not endless, yet he spends money without consideration. Do you think that giving him this opportunity, Jimmy's parents did right by him? What is your opinion of Jimmy, as a person?

(hide spoiler)]

[Carlton]

Response to Samanta at 258 – The Sisters
(view spoiler)[
I commented that, as others had noted, the narrator of The Sisters also feels relief following Reverend Flynn’s death, which is described as I felt even annoyed at discovering in myself a sensation of freedom as if I had been freed from something by his death.
I find it interesting that Joyce subtly chooses to describe the narrator as only having a sensation of freedom, not feeling free itself. As someone less careful in choosing his words, I think that if I had described the situation, I would have simplified my description of the narrator to say more simply that he felt freed following Reverend Flynn’s death.
I think that Joyce’s more careful choice of words better suggests the ambivalence felt by the narrator, as well as the narrator’s annoyance that he does not feel himself to be in mourning, that he actually felt a sensation of freedom. Joyce carefully shows us that the narrator is not only annoyed that his actual feelings do not match those he has been taught to expect on the death of someone close, but that he feels relief.
Joyce manages this is in far fewer words than I have above and also much more elegantly.
I guess that is why he is considered to be the outstanding author that he is.

My opinion on the topic of Mr Cotter's and Uncle's conversation is that it is about the perceived dangers of education on impressionable youths.
As people who enjoy reading books, many of us will assume that education is beneficial; indeed, that It is a truth universally acknowledged to quote another author out of context! However, my impression is that education as it is being discussed by Mr Cotter and the uncle is more about education for the Roman Catholic Church, with a view to the narrator following Reverend Flynn’s vocation and training for the priesthood.
Nevertheless, although I understand that this was one of the traditional path’s for poor but bright Irish Catholics out of a life of poverty, working men would feel a distaste for a boy seeking that life, as priests were also considered by some to be parasitic, producing nothing themselves but living off the work of others (this ignores their spiritual contribution of course). Hence, also the uncle’s reference to the narrator as that Rosicrucian.
I suspect that the Roman Catholic Church will be one of the themes of the stories.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Carlton - message 268

(view spoiler)[ You are quoting one of my favourite authors out of context. :)

I believe I know that feeling of relief. You feel that sensation of freedom, but at the same time you feel guilty for feeling relief. It's definitely a confusing situation for a person.

When it comes to opinions on priests, personally, I tend to look at the whole institution as a bit parasitic, but I have meet some wonderful priests and nuns when I was still attending church regularly and sang in church choir. I guess it would depend on the person. I know that becoming a priest/nun was for many people a way out of poverty, but I believe it to be the worst possible solution. I would like to know if Father Flynn became a priest out of necessity or because he felt the "call". (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

After the Race

(view spoiler)[
I think that the Irish might back the French who were, for centuries, historical enemies of England.

The national identities of the characters make for an intriguing contrast. In the winning car are a Hungarian, a Canadian, a Frenchman and Jimmy Doyle: an Irishman who has been educated in England. And later they meet up with an American.
I think that Joyce mistrusts automobiles and may think of the race as something like the Araby Bazaar: something not really Irish; something for which Irish real estate will host the more continental characters of the story.

Jimmy's father had once been an Irish nationalist but earned money as a butcher.

Could the story be about the corruption of money? Could the Hungarian character, who loves music so much and who plays the piano, be some sort of moral center? He does not play cards. He is the one who calls out the romantic painters for not being able to paint properly the renaissance lutes.

In short, the story is like a quick sketch and it is more difficult to pin down a definitive theme for me than it was with the previous stories.

Samanta asked: "What is your opinion of Jimmy, as a person?"
I see him as still very young and I also see that his excitement is exhilarating to him. he is well aware that he will "regret in the morning" but at the moment he is "glad" of everything else that happened. He will likely have a hangover. I think he enjoys popularity and is courting it.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Natalie - After the Race

(view spoiler)[This is the first story where Joyce mentions, albeit more subtly than in other stories, the politics and the Irish question. The first sentence, as you pointed out, shows that, but there are more hints to it later on. (hide spoiler)]

[Brett]

After the Race-Politics and Social Status

(view spoiler)[
1. Even with the French coming in 2nd place the Irish still cheered from them because they were not the English. Also, the French and Irish would have treaties to help each other in one thing or another against the English. They shared a mutual hatred for the English. At this time the Irish are getting ready for their Independence push from the British.

2. His father claimed to be pro-independence I think, but made his money off of the policy pushing British laws. His dad was playing both sides for his advancement, and it worked.

3. I don't know if Jimmy really knew what was going with English-Irish relations. I think it was learned from when his dad was pro-independence, but I don't think he understands it. His parents sent him to England to be educated, and I don't believe we read about any Irish friends of Jimmy's.

4. I don't think his parents did right by him. I kind of feel like he is a poser. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Brett - message 272

(view spoiler)[Do you condone the way Jimmy's dad made his fortune? What do you think is more important, staying loyal to something or looking after your own interests?

Most young people don't really form their own opinion on a sensitive matter based on research but have learned notions given to them by their elders. It's very hard to escape from that, and people are often not even aware that their opinion is not actually their's. Have you had a similar situation, or did you form your opinion (on any matter) on your own? I admit that I have some learned opinions, and some of them have changed thanks to the nature of my job. (hide spoiler)]

[Brett]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Brett - message 272

Do you condone the way Jimmy's dad made his fortune? What do you think is more important, staying loyal to something or looking after your own interests?

Most youn..."

(view spoiler)[ I agree. I think most of our opinions at first are learned. I teach 9th graders and I see this all the time with what their parents say then being repeated in the classroom. But college and being an adult is your opportunity to explore this, and experience new things that may change your opinions. It seems like Jimmy has missed this part of college or has not yet had the opportunity.
I have totally had some learned opinions, and college and especially my job has changed some opinions. But some initiative is needed, too. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Two Gallants - Being a Woman

(view spoiler)[1. Having read the story, what do you think of the title?

2. Our two protagonist are men of dubious occupations, but also dubious morality, speaking in no-pretty terms about women surrounding them. How hard was it to be a woman in those times?

(hide spoiler)]

[James]

After the Races

(view spoiler)[I feel I need to get up to speed on the historical background for this time. A question was asked about how Jimmy's dad made a living and I see from responses that the controversy has to do with playing along with British Laws. At first I really had no idea why it would be controversial.

It seems that the 6 men, all with different nationalities are probably symbolic of what is happening on the world stage. The game they play at the end may also be symbolic with Jimmy not playing very well but seems to be happy just to get included.

Jimmy does seem to be a bit or a brat, but a good natured one. He is trying to climb the social ladder with his father's approval. I think that his parents could probably teach him more about personal responsibility, but at the same time it does look like he will have advantages that he wouldn't have had without his father's hard work. I may have more ideas later, but that is all I have for now. (hide spoiler)]

[Candace]

Sisters

(view spoiler)[I was too embarrassed to jump in late until someone else did! The only thing I have to add to "Sisters" is something I Wouldn't have noticed but I did a little research on Catholicism to help me understand some things. One thing was the sacredness of the confessional. For anyone to be atoned of their sins, they must make reparation by going through the priest. Outside of Catholicism, it is hard for me to comprehend how sacred this is because I can go straight to my God. When the priest is teaching the boy he teaches him about "the secrecy of the confessional" and "whether such and such sins were mortal or genial or only imperfections." p. 4 , Bantam edition. It made me wonder if the Priest was trying to justify a sin as being a small sin and/or that it would hurt so many more people who had confessed their sins to him to learn that he was such a bad person. He had broken their trust in the sacredness of the confessional. Is that why the Church fights so hard to hide it today?
Also, is he trying to "make reparations" by teaching this young boy and therefore doing it for the wrong reasons and making the boy feel like something is wrong? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James

(view spoiler)[You and me both, James. I know next to nothing about the historical background. But, that is why we opened the Ireland challenge.

Do you think that climbing the social ladder and personal responsibility can go hand in hand? After all, the social ladder climbers are usually willing to do anything to reach the top. If his parents are social climbers, do you think they would tell Jimmy to be careful? (hide spoiler)]

[Candace]

Sisters, An Encounter, Araby, Eveline, After the Race

(view spoiler)[I think someone asked a question about the point of views which made me think of something I had noticed about the narrative structure. By using the child to adult structure and the repetition of themes and motifs; for example, the darkness, the poorness, everybody stuck in a routine, paralysis (introduced to us in the first paragraph of first story!), makes me feel like I'm stuck in a routine and that I'm living in Joyce's dark, depressing, Dublin. I think someone doesn't get the full effect unless they read the stories all as a book (in the structure) he intended. (hide spoiler)]

[James]

Response to Samanta:

(view spoiler)[
I don't think climbing the social ladder and personal responsibility go hand in hand. There is a recognition in the story that he is responsible about his irresponsibility, he doesn't let it get too out of hand. And his father seems to approve with a wink and a nod. Maybe I'm even making it a bit personal, I was expected to provide for myself at the age of 18, family tradition. He seems to be given a life, versus earning one. I personally believe that while this can seem seductive, it leads to unhappiness in most cases. We squander what we are given, but are much more careful about what we earn.

I think climbing the social ladder is fine, if that is really what you want to do. But it can become tragic if you are not able to remain true to yourself. I'm not sure if Jimmy is in this predicament though, I think his natural talents and dispositions are leading him toward this climb. But there are still pitfalls ahead of him if he is not careful, like losing money at cards. And he could also lose himself as well, I don't think this story gives a clear indication of his future.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James

(view spoiler)[I think that giving an kind of a responsibility when you are a young adult, helps a person grow up. I wasn't expected to provide for myself at the age of 18, but my mum did expect me to do odd jobs when I went to college (she was a single mum, so it was hard on her). Of course, I grumbled and I was lazy, but it was such a thrill to receive the money I earned at the end of the month, and it helped me a lot when she died because I immediately knew what I had to do. So yes, I do believe Jimmy's parents are not doing the right thing by "approving with a wink and a nod".

What I would really like to know is can you really stay true to yourself if you are climbing the social ladder, or are you bound to go astray?

As with previous stories, Joyce leaves this one open to interpretation. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Candace

(view spoiler)[It's really never too late to join. I am glad you decided to share your thoughts.

Indeed, Joyce is following a certain pattern and you feel yourself being pulled into that Dublin. I have to admit that, when I read the book for the first time, it felt very depressing and it took me awhile to finish it. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to read this during winter. :D :D

The Sisters

Which thesis about the priest do you support, the one that he was just trying to prepare the narrator for priesthood or that he was actually a paedophile? If the latter is true, then he might have felt guilty about committing sin and he might have talked about it in the context you mention. (hide spoiler)]

[Carlton]

Response to Candace message 277 - The Sisters
(view spoiler)[ I love your quotation with the unintended typo of a genial sin, rather than venial sin! A cheerful sin is I am sure what many making them are, at the time at least, if not later!
I hope that this is a typo, rather than your Bantam edition.
(hide spoiler)]

[Carlton]

After the Race
(view spoiler)[I rather liked this story, which I think gives a much more staid middle-class response to the youthful irresponsibility of wealthy young men at the beginning of the twentieth century than the much lighter short stories of P G Wodehouse (such as those about characters at the Drones club in Young Men in Spats).
I understand the parents’ aspirations of social climbing (whilst I do not need that myself), but it must also be difficult for the parents, as by sending their son to university and providing him with the means to be youthfully irresponsible, they are alienating him from their more lower middle-class selves. (I appreciate that the class distinctions may be lost on many today, but would have been instantly recognisable in Ireland at that time).
However, as with the other Dubliners stories, it is very dour and gloomy.

Discussion question 1: As has been noted above, the majority of Catholic Irish were against the British (for which read Protestant English) who had imposed their rule on the country. The French (traditional enemies of the English) were my enemy’s enemy, and so Ireland’s friend.
Ireland was very much seeking independence from British rule, which was not come (in the South) until 1919-1921.

Discussion question 4: I think that Jimmy is currently only seeking to pursue the path laid out by his parents, trying to obtain an education and a veneer of social skill. From what we have been told in the story, he has enjoyed the opportunities and social life that his parents’ hard work have won for him, but it appears that he has not been able to take full advantage of them. Whether these experiences will mar him as a person in the future is an open point, but I think that Joyce wants us to conclude that they will make Jimmy a feckless character, given up to irresponsibility, drinking and gambling. However, Joyce is subtle enough to make that clear, as he does allow Jimmy some ability to hold himself back, so indicating that there might be hope for Jimmy, although not in this story!

by P G Wodehouse (sorry no image appearing for me!)
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Carlton - After the Race

(view spoiler)[If I'm not mistaken, the first three stories were about the poor Dubliners, and this is the first one where the main character is slightly better off and can enjoy himself instead of just try to survive day by day. Now that I read your comment, I see Jimmy as a typical youngster, just wanting to enjoy himself and not think about any kind of responsibility. Of course, in this story, this typical behaviour is fueled by his parents' approval. Most of us grow up eventually, so it's seems logical that Joyce will give Jimmy the same opportunity but, as you put it, not in this story.

I always thought that life lessons are learned through bad things happening to us (at least that was the case with me), so maybe that is what we all need, however horrible it might sound. What do you think?

By the way, when you are mentioning the book (here or anywhere else in the group, write only the name of the book and/or author in the text, and put the citation at the end of the post. Like this:

"I rather liked this story, which I think gives a much more staid middle-class response to the youthful irresponsibility of wealthy young men at the beginning of the twentieth century than the much lighter short stories of P.G. Wodehouse (such as those about characters at the Drones club in Young Men in Spats)"

(.......the rest of your post......)

And then at the end, the citation.

by P.G. Wodehouse (hide spoiler)]

[Carlton]

Response to Samanta - After the Race
(view spoiler)[I know what you mean about life lessons being learned through bad things happening to us, but I would hope that by enlarging our experience through reading (and the other arts, talking to friends, listening to our parents etc), we can perhaps avoid some of the bad things, by experiencing them vicariously!

I think that Jimmy, the character in this story, is much better off than the characters in the other stories so far. The boy in Araby is perhaps lower middle class, although again living with aunt & uncle. I think Jimmy is upper middle class, as someone managing to get to Oxford University at that time must have had a reasonable amount of money behind them, it was not all so academic. So Joyce is portraying a reasonable cross section of (mainly male) society.

I have corrected the citation as requested - sorry that the image does not appear to show for me.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Carlton

(view spoiler)[He is portraying a mainly male society, but he did a good job of describing female. Eveline is one of my favorite stories in the collection.

If you don't see the photo of the author, put the link and add (no photo) after that

P.G. Wodehouse (no photo) (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Two Gallants - Social restrictions

(view spoiler)[3. Despite the hard societal and religious restrictions, there seems to have been a lot of secret trysts, that often-times ended with undesirable consequences. Do you think these situations happened as a rebellion against social strictness or was it only human nature, after all?

4. The two men devise a plan to get more money by one of them seducing a maid, and then making her steal money from her master. In those times, the higher class generally considered the working class poor as thieves, and thefts were a common occurrence. Do you think that the petty thefts were a kind of a rebellion against the high-and-mighty upper class or did the people steal out of necessity?

(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[1. This week's reading gives a completely different picture of Dublin. Which stories/characters do you prefer and why?

2. In these two stories, and Eveline from last week, our protagonists finally have a name. Does that technique bring the character closer to you? Are you able to make a connection with them?

(hide spoiler)]

[James]

Two Gallants

(view spoiler)[
Question 1, I think the name of the story is supposed to be sarcastic

Question 2, I would imagine that women certainly had it tougher during this time period than today. That said, I still think a lot of the behavior exhibited in this story unfortunately still takes place today

Question 3, I'm still pretty ignorant of Ireland and their culture during this time. That said, I think of Victorian times and how publicly attitudes were prudish. Yet there was a whole underground of activity that contradicted these prudish attitudes. I think trying to make people feel bad about sex or ashamed is not healthy for society in general.

Question 4, I think they were trying to survive. I wish I knew a little more about the this specific culture to give a better answer, but my instincts are telling me they weren't trying to rebel, they were trying to scratch together a living.
(hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Week Two - Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[I see that there was a question as to whether it's the same boy in all three stories. I was so sure about it, I didn't even think it was a question. That's why the Eveline chapter was such a jump. I thought the boy might be Ernest, Eveline's deceased brother. I wonder if all these stories are going to connect somehow?

For the record, "Araby" is the only one of these stories I've read before. But I don't think it works as a stand-alone. You have to understand who the priest is to understand the reference to him in "Araby." (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to James - Two Gallants

(view spoiler)[My question was a general one, regarding the culture as a whole, not just Irish. I agree with you that suppressing a part of our nature that we all share can lead to bad things. Education is the key, as they say.

Would you do the same? From my point of view today, I do not think I would, but who knows how an end-of-19th-century poor Samanta would think and act. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Kressel

Welcome!!! :)

(view spoiler)[It hasn't even occurred to me to consider the first three stories as having the same narrator. Very interesting!!

When you say that you need to understand who the priest is to understand Araby, do you mean that the dead priest might be Father Flynn? (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Response to Samanta

(view spoiler)[When you say that you need to understand who the priest is to understand Araby, do you mean that the dead priest might be Father Flynn?

That's absolutely what I meant, but I came to the story with the interpretation of a writing teacher who said that "Araby" shows how in a time of mourning, people can be at their most sexually susceptible. So that teacher seemed to imply the connection. It was certainly his observation that drew me to the story. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Kressel

(view spoiler)[Do you have a link to this interpretations? If so, would you mind posting it to the spoiler thread? Thank you! (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Response to Samanta

(view spoiler)[Do you have a link to this interpretations? If so, would you mind posting it to the spoiler thread? Thank you!

Nah. That was said in a college class. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Hello, everyone!! We are slowly coming to the end of week three. I am listing here the reading assigned for next week (week four). The pagination was taken from Wordsworth Classics edition, so it might not be the same as yours.

FEBRUARY 6TH THROUGH FEBRUARY 12TH
The Boarding House 43
A Little Cloud 49

[Helga]

My thoughts.
(view spoiler)[Just wanted to express my opinion about Dubliners so far. The short stories by Joyce describe life in Dublin and have themes of childhood, adolescence, maturity and public life. They have some common characters in them. I liked The Sisters and the reading by Frank McCourt, the story about a priest that dies the religious undertones. I also liked Eveline about a young woman who was thinking of leaving the country to start another life with her boyfriend and get away from an abusive father. Her decision not to leave meant that her country and life was more important to her then starting somewhere unknown.
Reading these stories as a buddy read has been so helpful in truly understanding these stories by a great writer. I missed a lot the first time I read them. These discussions have been super and I loved them. Anxious to read the rest of them. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Kressel wrote: "Week Two - Discussion Questions

I see that there was a question as to whether it's the same boy in all three stories. I was so sure about it, I didn't even think it was a question. That's why the ..."

That's an interesting interpretation. It could very well be the same boy.

[Samanta]

Response to Helga

Welcome, Helga!!

Please put your comments in the spoiler brackets. Thank you!

(view spoiler)[The discussion has helped me a great deal, too. When I read the whole book last year, I found the stories very depressing, but discussing them here with you, makes me excited to read them again. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Helga

Welcome, Helga!!

Please put your comments in the spoiler brackets. Thank you!

[spoilers removed]"

I corrected it. Sorry I forgot about it. But I agree with you on reading the book.

[David]

Two Gallants - Being a Woman

[1. Having read the story, what do you think of the title?
(view spoiler)[ Corley and Lenehan may have thought themselves gallant but were far from that. Joyce may be using this as an ironic title for this short story. The word gallant has a primary definition as a dashing man of fashion who pays particular attention to women. But the attention paid to the woman in this story was for an ulterior motive: stealing. (hide spoiler)]
2. ... How hard was it to be a woman in those times?
(view spoiler)[ It must've been quite difficult especially for those who were poor. Marriage must have been looked at as a way to pull one's self out of poverty and I'm sure there was no shortage of men who might use this for sexual advantage and as we see in the story even directing women to carry out their planned crimes. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Helga wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Helga

Welcome, Helga!!

Please put your comments in the spoiler brackets. Thank you!

[spoilers removed]"

I corrected it. Sorry I forgot about it. But I agree with you..."

No problem! :)

[Samanta]

Response to David

(view spoiler)[I do realise that it was hard and that one wanted desperately to fix his/her financial situation, but I wonder if these women really didn't see what was going on. Or were they well aware and were playing a game of their own. (hide spoiler)]