Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Where Have All The Readers Gone?
I really think that is part of it. Most authors are also readers but I'm coming to think that some of them aren't.
Cphe wrote: "Marc wrote: "Martyn (a.k.a. M'sieur Sang Froid) wrote: "In one case the main character's name kept changing. I was asked on which pages this occurred...."
Not in the way of the great Russian nineteenth century novels I take it ;-)
Henry wrote: "Which brings me to back to restating a point I made in another thread - the paying public should never, ever, be a testing ground for any product, books included.Authors need to do their best to ..."
Exactly. I have lost track of the number of times I have told my fellow authors that there is no excuse for not editing a manuscript ... including "I can't afford to." You can barter services, you can arrange with a local community college journalism department for an advanced editing student to do your book for class credit, etc. It just takes some creativity.
I have also lost track of the number of times I've been told, when someone solicits my services as an editor (of more than 20 years' experience, with mid-range rates) that "I'm just a new author, couldn't you do it for free this once?" And when I ask what they want to barter in exchange for my services, the silence is resounding ... because they really do expect professional services for free.
Anyway, if people who are indie publishing, whether on their own or through a small press, do not hold ourselves to the same standard as we hold our *fellow professionals,* it does not look good at all.
Sharon wrote: "I have also lost track of the number of times I've been told, when someone solicits my services as an editor (of more than 20 years' experience, with mid-range rates) that "I'm just a new author, couldn't you do it for free this once?" And when I ask what they want to barter in exchange for my services, the silence is resounding ... because they really do expect professional services for free"As a musician I used to get that all the time. Won't you play for this gig? It's a good cause. Can you sing for our wedding? We can't pay you but we know you like doing it! Professional services cost and those who are offering a professional editing service are doing their day jobs too.
Obviously there is no excuse for not editing your work. Trusting the spelling and grammar checkers in Word is not enough. Get someone to read it through for errors and inconsistencies, read it through lots of times yourself too, get friends to beta read and if you know you have a tendency to make mistakes then pay someone to edit. Make sure they have a good reputation as an editor and pay them well because it is worth it for your peace of mind.
Sharon wrote: "Henry wrote: "Which brings me to back to restating a point I made in another thread - the paying public should never, ever, be a testing ground for any product, books included.Authors need to do ..."
yep i paid for my editor but Im hardly making anything back yet so Im wondering if you would consider to be an editor with your name mentioned and delayed payment?
Martyn (a.k.a. M'sieur Sang Froid) wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sometimes I wonder, are all authors really readers too? You wouldn't know it by some of the things they do."I often wonder about that too. Especially when authors ask how long a cha..."
It's impossible to be a writer and not be a reader.
J.R. wrote: "Martyn (a.k.a. M'sieur Sang Froid) wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sometimes I wonder, are all authors really readers too? You wouldn't know it by some of the things they do."I often wonder about that too...."
no it's impossible to be a good writer and not a reader. You'd be surprised by how many new writers don't read
It isn't impossible. I've spoken with a handful of writers over the last year who told me, "Oh, I never read." The excuses are typically either: no time, or no interest in other's stories.This isn't completely related, but I thought I'd mention it for authors trying to pitch their work to agents. A very well-known literary agent told me they get submission letters all the time that say, "There aren't any good books out there. That's why I wrote THIS."
Don't ever say that. Seriously. The agent has other clients, whose work you just trashed.
When writing, publishing, pitching, whatever - think about how your words COULD be taken, rather than how they SHOULD be.
Jen wrote: "It isn't impossible. I've spoken with a handful of writers over the last year who told me, "Oh, I never read." The excuses are typically either: no time, or no interest in other's stories.This is..."
but are they any good as writers?
The term "writer" doesn't imply quality. Not anymore. If I can holler out a tune, I can "sing." If I can butcher Chopsticks on the piano, I can "play." A person can call themselves whatever they want...and they do. While technically, throwing 50,000 words together doesn't make one a "writer," there's nothing stopping them from claiming the distinction.
Jen wrote: "When writing, publishing, pitching, whatever - think about how your words COULD be taken, rather than how they SHOULD be. i>you know, like words... writers... tools of the trade... and tings...
Again, I am always surprised by writers who have no interest in expanding their vocabularies and looking up new words.
However good you are as a writer, if you don't read how are you going to improve, to stretch yourself and polish your craft? However good you are, there is always room for improvement and if you are professional about your writing and committed to it, you will surely want to improve. In my view, real writers read.
Some people aren't looking to improve...
Jen wrote: "Some people aren't looking to improve..."I think you're right, but then I'm also curious as to why? Do you think it's simply a case that they think they know everything there is to know about the craft, or is it something else?
What I think, is that we've entered a world of amateur entertainment. People read stories about teenagers who get a publishing contract after uploading a story on Wattpad, and they see opportunity and dollar signs. Self publishing has opened the door for many, many wonderful books. Unfortunately, it also encourages a reckless approach to writing. No one can tell you "no" if Createspace or Lulu or Whatever won't.
Professionalism is a dying idea. You have people who honestly believe they're "good," who feel no need to enlist designers, editors, proofreaders, etc. "Mom liked it as it is!"
I call this the "American Idol" problem. Your sister says you can sing, so you run to an audition and make an ass out of yourself. While television broadcasts (and humiliates) these people, the world of books doesn't offer the same reflection.
I'm as bad about this as anyone. When I read a book that's truly awful, I might send the writer a head's up, but I'm wary of publicly trashing the work. While I tell myself that this is a kindness, it really isn't. So long as readers accept amateur writing in return for cash, we're encouraging the widespread problem.
That didn't really answer your question, but apparently, I needed to go off on a tangent. My apologies. Now:
"Good enough" is an excuse I hear a lot from newbs. "This is the best I could do." "I couldn't afford an editor." "My friends never said that was wrong." "Everyone else liked it."
There is no desire to improve. The fault is sometimes put on me, as a reader, for finding the quality of the work objectionable. Why can't I look past those typos? The story itself is great!
Some people see crap getting published, and believe they can make a quick buck without an investment. The money is what appeals to them, only.
For others, I think they want less to be professional, as to share their story with others. There's nothing wrong with that, if you stick with Wattpad or those kinds of venues. The second you call yourself an author, and start charging money, certain standards should be met. As far as I'm concerned, anyway.
Specifically, no. Most of those people KNOW they don't know everything. They've just been led to believe that it doesn't matter.
What is the demographic of the "new writer"? This interests me. Are we talking about a specific age group, or ability level, a teenager with doting parents, a stay at home mummy with time on her hands, someone who has been a professional in the past but is changing genre, someone who taught English but now chooses to write, someone who has written non-fiction professionally for years but has produced a first novel? In other words are we talking about a new writer or just an unknown quantity? There is a huge variety of SPA newbs who go from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Lisa wrote: "What is the demographic of the "new writer"? This interests me. Are we talking about a specific age group, or ability level, a teenager with doting parents, a stay at home mummy with time on her ha..."That's a good question. I wouldn't consider anyone who has written before to be "new." When I say "newb" I mean someone new to the process of writing and publication. This isn't exclusive to any demographic. There are teens out there who write better than many adults, just as there are many older writers with a serious lack of skill.
Thanks for clarifying that one for me Jen. :) My main reason for asking was that so many new writers do come into those demographics. If you spend much time on social media and read a few biographies - on Twitter for example - you will see just how many SPAs come up with similar author profiles. Fan fiction is enormous too and many new writers are coming through from fan fiction. I am not sure how I feel and respond to that personally. I do know that as a reader I am ready and willing to give new writers a chance if they seem to be offering something different and the sample doesn't reveal many technical problems.
S. wrote: "yep i paid for my editor but Im hardly making anything back yet so Im wondering if you would consider to be an editor with your name mentioned and delayed payment? ."
I am not taking any new editing gigs at this time, but please consider the other advice I gave above, including visiting your local community college to negotiate with the journalism department. :-)
FWIW, my rate is $50/hour (which, again, is mid-range for my level of experience) for detailed line edits and an additional document that lists common problems that I find in the manuscript (e.g., homophone errors) so that the author is aware of those problems for future manuscripts ... which is a cost savings for the future. The more time it takes an editor to do a project, the costlier it will be.
I don't take delayed payments (anymore), either ... because I'm stilled owed money on one project from a couple of years ago. I allowed it because the author was a friend. Subsequent projects were cash-on-delivery. Future projects, when my books are open again, will require a deposit/retainer.
Some editors charge by word count, others by the hour. Some do a bare proofread (for which I charge about $10/hour, BTW), but that's not a full-on edit in my opinion. You want someone who can find not only grammar, punctuation and spelling problems but also continuity issues and so on. And that's not going to be cheap, most of the time.
So, yes. If money is an issue, be creative with barter, etc.
Lisa wrote: "What is the demographic of the "new writer"? This interests me. Are we talking about a specific age group, or ability level, a teenager with doting parents, a stay at home mummy with time on her ha..."I've never met a stay at home mummy with time on her hands.
Julia wrote: "Lisa wrote: "What is the demographic of the "new writer"? This interests me. Are we talking about a specific age group, or ability level, a teenager with doting parents, a stay at home mummy with t..."Sorry Julia, this was not meant as a derogatory comment. There are a lot of writing forums where mums who want to stay at home are encouraged to write articles to make a share of the sales and advertising revenue. Often these articles are about cooking, holidays, children's books, personal experiences and many, many product reviews of course - especially toys and gifts. Squidoo and hubpages are probably the main sites but there are many others. When Google tightened their Penguin and Panda algorhythms for search a lot of site traffic was lost and many of these SAHMs as they call themselves have now turned to writing "how to" ebooks and sweet romances. I met quite a few while compiling guitar instruction pages. Being a SAHM is a better option for those who don't want to go out to work but want more quality time with the children. When can they find the time to write? Well, when the kids are at school or at night instead of watching TV. It is a fact that a lot of new writers are in fact coming from that very demographic and some are excellent.
I've also met a handful of writers who claim they don't read. The reasons tend to vary. In my English classes, on day one, I tell students to be a better writer (and a better thinker) you must read. There is no excuse and no way around this fact. So either their lack of reading is grossly exaggerated or they are in all likelihood terrible writers.It's like, would you go to a doctor who had never himself actually been to a doctor? Of course you wouldn't. That would be weird.
K.S. wrote: "It's like, would you go to a doctor who had never himself actually been to a doctor? Of course you wouldn't. That would be weird."Nah, I'd just expect them to be extremely healthy. After all, to become a doctor you don't have to play doctor as a child, but you have to go to medical school, so that comparison goes askew.
It's more like with any creative art, like painting, that someone paints but has never studied other painters.
Personally, I don't believe you become a great writer by imitating others. That just puts you in the center of all the other zebras. After a while all the stripes look the same. Followers master the mechanics. But innovators become the Masters.
I was actually trying to make an analogy not directly related to the arts. Everyone has been to the doctor was my point, including doctors themselves, just like most intelligent people read (books, magazines, whatever). So for a writer to dismiss reading, it sends up major warning flags. And I'm not at all suggesting writers should read to emulate, but as Martyn said its would be like "someone [who] paints but has never studied other painters." To master anything, whether it is art or baseball, or physics, you look to the current masters. The 'experts'. You learn from them, and use what you learn to improve. It has nothing to do with emulation. It's more like innovation. Hoe does a scientist come up with new theories if he doesn't understand the current ones? How does one know anything about writing if you don't read books? To use another non-artistic (or less-artistic I suppose) example, how would you know how to play basketball if you'd never watched a game?
Rhoda wrote: "S. wrote: "Rhoda wrote:"I have learned that ranking means nothing. I found better stories for free on smashwords than what I paid for in hardcovers. And I am one of those people where I refuse to..."
Describes me to a tee.
K.S. wrote: "I've also met a handful of writers who claim they don't read. The reasons tend to vary. In my English classes, on day one, I tell students to be a better writer (and a better thinker) you must read..."To be a writer you must give up reading? Insanity.
Henry wrote: "Hey, I'm a SAHM, and I have no time on my hands whatsoever. Well, no time to write, anyway.
Jen hit the nail on the head with the "newb". Too many non-readers are encouraged to spit out stories..."
Shouldn't that be a SAHD Henry? ;) Unless there's something I missed! Well, you must have found some time to write that book of yours (which I thoroughly enjoyed). At the moment I have all the time in the world to write as a "sofa princess" with my leg in a cast, but to be honest between the pain and the painkillers I find it hard to write anything. So I am reading books and interacting here instead.
"Too many non-readers are encouraged to spit out stories and release them. Too many success stories in certain genres encourage them to do so - recently there was another thread about a couple who saved their house by writing romance novels. Upon closer inspection, the books were nowhere near the length of a novel, and the writing was quite unprofessional. Still, the public interested in an "escape" buys it, as it requires no thought from the reader. Books are put on par with entertainment, and this has done literature great injustice."
There is a great deal of truth in that and as anyone can testify who visits the KDP forum there are a lot of people trying to do the exact same thing and getting upset when it doesn't work out for them. A lot of those people are scarcely capable of writing in English, many of them have English as a second, third or even fourth language but have commercial and internet experience. In the present climate those skills seem to be essential.
It is partly that sort of poor quality and spammy EFL writing that led to the Penguin and Panda algorhythms on Google and the problems of the "share cropper" writing sites. Spam was tolerated and drove standards down because the producers saturated articles with keyword rich drivel instead of intelligent copy. Eventually the same will happen with KDP or they will simply give up and move on. Some of those who have the dream of being writers will work hard at their skills and will become more competent and professional I am sure. Eventually standards will have to rise.
Julia wrote: "Personally, I don't believe you become a great writer by imitating others. That just puts you in the center of all the other zebras. After a while all the stripes look the same. Followers master the mechanics. But innovators become the Masters."Yes, who needs to master the mechanics, anyway?
Anyone may claim to be a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief. That doesn't necessarily make them one.And I repeat--it's impossible to be a writer and not read.
Stephen King, who knows a bit about the subject, advises all aspiring writers to write a lot and read a lot. Charles Nodier, a lesser known writer, suggested, “A writer should read until he is filled to the brim and like a pitcher which is over-filled overflows, and then he should write.”
As to emulating others, Robert Louis Stevenson advised, “When you read a book or a passage you admire, immediately set yourself to aping it so that you may capture the flavor of it.” He wasn't suggesting plagiarism. He meant it as part of the learning process, before you attempt to publish work that isn't ready.
Lisa wrote: "KDP forums..."I left the KDP forums just because I thought the place was insane. Everyone was jumping on each other. If you didn't like a book, you got jumped on. If someone didn't like your review, they would all hit "review not helpful".
I do not understand how someone could be a writer and not a reader. I can understand writing something other than what you read though. For example, I read history, biographies, true crime. I have written historical fiction. The two intermingle but are not the same.
I have seen many writers on different threads admit that they don't read. It's disturbing. But I guess it goes along with a certain attitude we've been discussing here. It's not that surprising that writers who don't read also spam discussion groups that they joined only to self-promote. They somehow find that their books are the answer to any request for a recommendation. They are all about broadcasting their own "product," but have little interest in books otherwise. I get the feeling that these people could be selling anything and it wouldn't make much difference.
Julia wrote: "Personally, I don't believe you become a great writer by imitating others. That just puts you in the center of all the other zebras. After a while all the stripes look the same. Followers master the mechanics. But innovators become the Masters."Huh. I'm not saying people should imitate others, but I'm not sure there are any true "master innovators" who aren't familiar with the basics. When I think of great writers who innovated in language, form, style, etc., they all had an understanding of what came before. How can you overturn previously established ideas if you don't know what those ideas were?
Creating something "unusual" because you haven't bothered to know the basic mechanics of language and storytelling is not the same thing as innovation.
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "I have seen many writers on different threads admit that they don't read. It's disturbing."I agree. I wouldn't buy a book by any author who proclaimed this. I wouldn't buy music by a songwriter/recording artist who didn't listen to music either.
Don't misinterpret an author who says he doesn't read as meaning he never read. Many authors would rather spend their free time writing (their passion) than reading someone else's writing. It doesn't mean they haven't read prior to becoming an author, thereby picking up the background knowledge helpful to their craft.
Julia wrote: "Personally, I don't believe you become a great writer by imitating others. That just puts you in the center of all the other zebras. After a while all the stripes look the same. Followers master th..."what innovations has literature seen since the modernists? None I'd offer.
Musicians have always been more open about their influences and referenced them in their own work. Some is derivative, but much is while if not innovative, at least sounds sufficiently different and fresh from what has come before. Literature seems to less willing to acknowledge its inspirations in this day and age. I openly acknowledge mine, though they tend to come from other disciplines like art and theatre.
I think part of the impetus that has led to a tidal wave of SP books, is the existence and flourishing of creative writing courses in US universities (far fewer available here in the UK), which has of course now become harnessed to the open access in publishing of the digital age.
I'm also curious why so many people have turned to the novel, which is a fairly hidebound art form and which many probably hated studying in high school, for telling their stories - why are there so many stories of dragons, vampires, paranormal romances, terrorist thrillers etc etc (I'm not picking out any one genre here, I include all). If you want to tell a story, to spin a yarn, there are equally accessible and I think more efficient means such as video, music, graphic art than the slog of sitting down to write 80,000 words and then editing it.
As for innovation in literature, this is unlikely to come from the story-spinning works, but those which explore the nature of narrative, question the relationship of fiction to reality, probe language, employ different formalistic styles. This type of writing is not inherently superior or more worthy than story spinning novels and both ought to be able to co-exist in the market place. But it is the endangered one of the species, as literature is becoming eclipsed by commercial writing.
And finally, someone above said the trend for Sp will level out as issues of quality and volume settle down in the market. I'm less certain that will be the case as for every writer who drops out after their debut novel has failed to yield them the riches they anticipated, a new generation arises to replace them and so it rolls on. What has anyone got to lose to become a writer for at least one book? There is no investment of anything but a modicum of time to write the manuscript.
Henry wrote: "Martyn, Beware, there is someone who may not see the sarcasm in your words and actually take it as a serious post. :)..."
I'm sure you'll set them right that 'sarcastic mode' is pretty much my default setting.
Julia wrote: "My darling, you MUST master the mechanics or you will get eaten alive :) The point I was trying to make is that you can have flawless, million dollar mechanics, but if the story doesn't reach the heart or funny bone, readers aren't going to stick around."So Henry is right. My sarcasm is invisible. ;)
You'll find them by the missing flowers.By the way, great author interview videos here ...
http://www.literaryvagabond.com/inter...
I think it's not just about the writing but the formatting too, when it comes to ebooks anyway. It is still a reading/writing thing though. I'm quite fussy making my ebooks because I've read some that were difficult to follow. If an author does their own sometimes they don't check for format errors or weird symbols in the text. You can tell when a doc is uploaded and no time is taken as to the look of the finished product before it goes on sale. That will lose a lot of readers if it's a mess. I haven't finished some books because of it. The only reason I know how I want mine to look or not look is because I read so much. As a reader I have to be able to follow the story and I'm probably old school but I want my chapters to still break and start on a new page too.
I saw a reader once sitting under some power lines absorbed in a Chuck Palahniuk novel. He got hit by lightning. I went over to check his pulse but his arm crumbled into a pile of ashes when I touched his wrist.
Well, why didn't I figure that out. That's where the readers are going. It all makes sense now.
John wrote: "You'll find them by the missing flowers.By the way, great author interview videos here ...
http://www.literaryvagabond.com/inter..."
Wow, this must be quite a site, since you've posted it to at least seven threads in the last day or so. Kind of ironic considering the discussion in this one.
At least no one has written:Hey, this reminds me of a scene in my book - which is only 99 cents this week! Check it out!
John wrote: "I saw a reader once sitting under some power lines absorbed in a Chuck Palahniuk novel. He got hit by lightning. I went over to check his pulse but his arm crumbled into a pile of ashes when I touc..."thats quite a story you have there :)
Henry wrote: "Jen wrote: "At least no one has written:Hey, this reminds me of a scene in my book - which is only 99 cents this week! Check it out!"
You finally published your drunken emails?
:)"
LOL
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (other topics)The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
I often wonder about that too. Especially when authors ask how long a chapter is supposed to be, etcetera. And once or twice I told them to look up how their favorite author solved that problem and I got answers like 'I don't read other people's books because it interferes with my creativity' or some other utter nonsense that makes me go...