Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Where Have All The Readers Gone?
oh dear, now i know why readers want to flock together..
You might have a better chance of finding readers in the genre-specific groups or the Book-a-holics group. They often do a better job of keeping authors corralled into their own corner (although some new authors stumble all over everyone's toes until they've been whipped into submission).This group is aimed at both authors and readers, so authors seem to be given a little more leeway to run rampant.
All about books https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...Shut Up and Read - has author areas but you can obviously choose not to read those. https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Romance Forum Refugees - Mainly reader oriented - author area is the ONLY place for author self promo https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Sword and Laser - probably a mix https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Also Book Vipers https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/... Fiction Fanatics https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
S. wrote: "agreed! i just skipped all the introduction or reviews or whatever and just go straight to the story.."I HATE stephen king because of the description... and when it, if it takes 50 pages for you to describe the curtains, to me, it seems like you are more concerned with word count than story. Also, as a reader, i find it is insulting to my intelligence. I have an imagination, and I read books to experience it myself---rather than watching the movie.
For example, "He sat on an old worn chair" as opposed to "He sat on an old worn, red Louis XIV chair with lace doilies, that has gold trim nestled in the wood. It was a gift from his...." I dont care about any of that... it is a chair, and not part of the plot! LOL
yup..thats true..im mostly in it for the plot..unless if its a book like Tolkien..and you are right too a story should spark the imagination of the reader instead of getting the reader working hard to construct the scene etc etc.. we might as well watch a movie :)
Jen wrote: "Elaine wrote: "Us readers are outnumbered everywhere on the internet now!"That depresses me..."
Here's a thought... why not ask the mods of various groups to only permit readers to post in a certain folder? Each group is different, and has different rules, but some are VERY strict as to what you can post where.
I totally understand that you might feel outnumbered, and even invaded. Yes, we authors want to get our books out. But yes, we are also book lovers, which is why we write. So please do not dismiss us all so broadly. That is like saying, "All readers are want crime stories."
I do understand that you might not want to deal with authors promoting every time you turn around.... but.. over the past few months, I have read some very very good self pub'd books. I have read some trash too, but that is my opinion. As i said earlier, I cannot stand Stephen king's description... I threw out my dean koontz, and corrected my Danielle Steel. LOL
I would post in the "Questions" or "Welcome" Folders and ask the group mods to add readers only folders. That way you dont feel outnumbered. :)
Thanks everyone! While looking for a few groups to join, I came across this thread and its been the most entertaining read of the day.The funny part is I'm an author (yikes, don't throw your coffee on me!) Yet, first and foremost I am a reader. I love reading and manage 2 - 3 books a week ...so here I am trying to find a home of like minded people to discuss books and I ended up in total frustration at how many authors were clogging the message boards with shameless self promotion. What happened to integrity?
The only way I'd mention one of my own books is if I truly thought someone would enjoy them.
I've joined a few groups hoping to find value in them but only time will tell. I prefer upbeat books with a humorous element (most of the time) but will read anything that doesn't give me nightmares. And truth be known, I spend a lot of time at my local library and downloading bargain books on my Kindle. And now I'm trying to find my way around Goodreads and make new friends so any suggestions would be appreciated.
Life is too short to be bored or ticked off.
Henry wrote: "Jen, Why not just add a subforum to The Source and make it reader only? No author posts allowed, period."
Not a bad idea, Henry, but that takes time. Mainly, I needed to find other only-readers within a short window for a project I had my eye on.
I think I figured something out, though...
I've noticed the same thing happening on Twitter with authors. All they tweet about is their book, like 20+ tweets a day, and that is it. Honestly, if I see an author shameless self-promoting, it makes me not want to read the book. And it's not just the indie authors either, the only difference is that writers who went with a large publisher have someone else doing it for them. And sometimes, small press authors are the biggest offenders of them all! I think a book should speak for itself. If your book is good, people will like it and tell their friends, write reviews etc. Do a few giveaways to get the book out there, but authors need to stop using Goodreads as a publicity tool. Readers are smart! Don't insult them, I say.
I will add one last comment, as evidence. I know many authors who spend 80-90% of their social media time pushing their book. Then there is me; I spend 20% tops per week talking about writing in general, and less than 5% about a book I've actually written. My sales are fine and my review are awesome. No need to push my books. They hold their own just fine. I rarely discuss my own work, because as a Reader I hate it, so as a Writer I refuse to beat people to death with 'my book crap'.
I've been on Goodreads since 2009 and it is sad to see the changes, especially in the groups. I'm going to check out this booklikes.com everyone has mentioned, but I'll still be hanging around goodreads, fingers crossed that things will get better =)
K.S. wrote: "I've been on Goodreads since 2009 and it is sad to see the changes, especially in the groups. I'm going to check out this booklikes.com everyone has mentioned, but I'll still be hanging around goodreads, fingers crossed that things will get better =)"It's been quiet around here lately, as far as readers go. I think promos were always around, but readers used to be more vocal, as well - which balanced it all out.
Jen wrote: "K.S. wrote: "I've been on Goodreads since 2009 and it is sad to see the changes, especially in the groups. I'm going to check out this booklikes.com everyone has mentioned, but I'll still be hangin..."I looked at booklikes. I joined it. They have a lot of groups. The set up is somewhat confusing. I'll just play around with it until I get the hang of it. I'll be sending you a friend request. Look forward to talking with you. Cheers!!!
Thanks Angela! Yeah I'm on the site now and it is a bit confusing haha. Looks promising though!
Jen wrote: "Sharon wrote: "No, I'm not defensive; I'm genuinely curious about what opinion you think a non-author can hold that an author cannot.In response to your question re: ice cream, whom I would ask w..."
I'm not even remotely offended. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. If that feels argumentative to you, I'm sorry.
I just joined Booklikes, too. If anyone else is on, look me up (kendoggett) and do a friend request.
K.S. wrote: "I will add one last comment, as evidence. I know many authors who spend 80-90% of their social media time pushing their book. Then there is me; I spend 20% tops per week talking about writing in general, and less than 5% about a book I've actually written. My sales are fine and my review are awesome. No need to push my books. They hold their own just fine. I rarely discuss my own work, because as a Reader I hate it, so as a Writer I refuse to beat people to death with 'my book crap'."I'm a reader, not an author, and personally I'm much more likely to check out someone's books when I see them around acting like a regular GR member. If I see an author who interacts on groups, writes reviews, and talks about books as a reader, I will often click over to the profile page. If their books are the type of thing I like to read, I'm more than willing to give them a shot.
Authors who swoop in, spam multiple groups and threads, or worse, private messages, are authors I tend to ignore. Who wants to be a captive audience for advertising?
I can see where it would take a much bigger investment of time and energy to put forth that level of participation on book sites rather than just tweeting out an ad, but my guess is that it would be much higher yield. I feel like a lot of the Twitter self-promotion is just people yelling into the wind. No one is listening to it.
I think we're on the same page, Sarah. Author spam makes me think they are desperate and that the book must be really bad for them to need to try so hard. If authors will just write good books, an audience will find it and love it. Then, we can keep Goodreads a place where readers (whether they also write or not) can share thoughts on books, recommend books, etc not get spammed. There are lots of ways outside of Goodreads that are meant for Book promotion, like blogs tours, that authors can use to spread the word about their new book. But even then, it should be done in a thoughtful and engaging way, not cut and paste spamming.Honestly, talking about my own books makes me feel weird haha. I only every really discuss them if I'm being interviewed or on a panel at a conference. I'm a writer, not a salesman, and that's the way it should be in my opinion.
K.S. wrote: "I think we're on the same page, Sarah. Author spam makes me think they are desperate and that the book must be really bad for them to need to try so hard. If authors will just write good books, an ..."The theory goes that 90 percent of one's social media, as an author or other business professional, should be interaction and only 10 percent promotion. I think that, unfortunately, a good many of my fellow authors reverse those numbers.
The other thing I caution folks to do is lurk around a group before posting, to sort of "take the temperature" and see what's acceptable before diving in with both feet in your mouth. :-)
I am not a writer and I can understand why readers are hiding in some groups here on Goodreads, we seem to be becoming the minority and when we voice our honest opinion we are often harassed, called stupid or something along those lines unless we are gushing over how wonderful every book is that we read. Its quite an interesting and sometimes entertaining place to be. I agree with Sarah, the only authors that I have checked out from groups that I am in is the ones that were just regular members that didn't throw their book out in every post. I am in one group that the authors have this type of sections, there is one author who posts daily in that section about her book but never participates in any other part of the group and I won't be checking her book out because it really turns off my interest in her writing. The authors that posted there books then participated in the group in other ways I have read and enjoyed very much.
A few groups that still has readers that I know of are
Happily Ever After Cafe
Genre readers looking to expand
Read by Theme
Top of the Pile
The Book Ends
Hey all i'm a reader and if you would like to add me to your friends lists muchly appreciated...all welcome...i'm a paranormal romance reader and history romance buff...so if anyone wants to contact me please feel free...hope all is well...and hopefully i didn't say anything out of the ordinary!!!
ok nobody move..readers are coming out of their hiding places..
Just so you know, authors hide too. I call myself a musician who writes, not an author, but first off I am a reader. I have been hiding in groups where it is safe to discuss books without being "outed" as an author. Primarily the poetry group which is usually really friendly. I just reviewed a lovely book I discovered thanks to the poetry group. We are all different in our own tolerance for lively debate as some might call it or confrontation as others might. At the end of the day we are all here to find good books and new friends aren't we?
S. wrote: "ok nobody move..readers are coming out of their hiding places.."I LOL'd reading that...
yeah doubt this peace is gonna last long though..soon an author will scream 99cent! and readers will scream "captive to advertisement"..and there's gonna be bloodbath..
Are you looking for readers or buyers? I'm a reader not an author. Do we hide - absolutely! Do we interact with other members - yes, but very carefully. I always check out the members involved when I'm in a discussion. Like most readers, I'm tired of the constant marketing - I try to ignore all of it. Sometimes that means leaving the site because the only discussions going on are book promos of one kind or another. Then you have the author who slips in a book promo in the middle of a discussion - they just made my no read list.
I thought this site was about books. Sometimes it's only about selling books. For readers - it's like telemarketing and after a while they just don't answer the phone anymore.
And i was expecting the whole GR to go to the other site and meet up there... still flooding it with authors! lol It's frustrating being an author. I was never on this site, I only found it after writing my books. But I have always read. And I have always written, even as a child. Personally, I think this site is confusing. It is hard to know where to post, and even when you think you found the right place to post, the message gets deleted lol. I actually found this site to be a very unfriendly site to authors because of the strict rules.
As far as "readers will find the good books", I don't believe that. How will someone find it if they can't find it? lol if that makes sense. That is like saying "A winning lottery ticket is lost in the USA." And that is how it feels to be an author. Unfortunately, I think some authors feel we are competing with each other. I'm not in competition with anyone. You can like/buy my book, and still like/buy the next person's.
As far as Melissa, I am saddened to hear her post. I too have felt in the same position. As an author, if someone does not like what you have to say, they email you and threaten-- even threaten to write negative reviews for books they have never read!!! What is that about??? Sometimes I just cannot believe adults behave this way. :(
Lol..look like the epic "Book fiends vs Author Guild war" is going to fester on... Cyberspace: From what XYZ Channel could gather the war broke out last summer after the Guild accused the Fiends of trying to chip at its power by putting on "Shelves" - mighty tools they were - of "Guild we hate". Since the war, the fiends had been living underground for fear of being hostage to "advertisement" and "telemarketing".
The stand off is likely to continue for the foreseable future....
Reporting live from the scene of carnage..out..
Cphe wrote: "Jen wrote: "..the divide between authors and readers seems to be widening."This is something else I just do not get! I actually ask people, "What do you want to read? What kinds of books would you like to see in print? What do you not find enough of?"
'cause in my opinion, if someone with a book in their hand tells me that they want to see more comedy for example... or more romance that has comic relief, then guess what---- I just got first hand knowledge of what readers want, and what my next book that i write could be about.
Idk.. I posted on one site offering to proofread/beta read in exchange for people sharing my blog or writing reviews, and I was literally inundated with "bully" emails. And I assure you, most of them were authors, not readers. I am never going to war with readers, that is stupid! Who is going to buy the author's books, if not for the readers?
There has been a lot written (the past few years) and the divide between author's and readers seem to be widening.
Which is very sad since I would have thought the whole process in here was intended to try to bring them together. I am a little taken aback at a few of the posts on this thread (and not only this one) which for a newbie looking in for the first time, I see as anything but 'welcoming' and 'acting nice'. I am one of the luckier ones with a pretty thick skin, but for anyone less prepared I can well imagine that they would take to their heels and run for cover ...
:(
Cphe wrote: "Janys,For the life of me I can't see where my post has been "unwelcoming" or not "acting nice"
I attempted to answer the question of the OP to the best of my ability.
There has been a LOT writt..."
Who said I was talking about your post?
Jen wrote: I love authors. I consider many to be friends. Uh...is this kind of like when people say "Hey. Don't take offense. I love Jews. I have many Jewish friends."?
Well, good luck finding your writer-free people.
Dina wrote: "Jen wrote: I love authors. I consider many to be friends. Uh...is this kind of like when people say "Hey. Don't take offense. I love Jews. I have many Jewish friends."?
Well, good luck findin..."
Um, no it isn't like that at all. I needed an only-reader opinion, and was accused of not liking authors - which is an absurd accusation for anyone to make against a reader. Readers READ. Of COURSE we like authors.
If I needed a man's opinion, would that make me a misogynist? I think not. Thanks for joining the discussion, and stirring the pot with a healthy dose of disdain. Much appreciated.
Henry wrote: "Dina, Yet another post that just shows how immature some 'authors' are. Perhaps you do not realize it, but anything you post reflects not only on you as an author, but also on authors in general...."
Henry, THANK YOU!
I don't know how much I've done for anyone, but it warms my heart to see an author defend a reader. I very much appreciate that!
Rhoda wrote: "And i was expecting the whole GR to go to the other site and meet up there... still flooding it with authors! lol It's frustrating being an author. I was never on this site, I only found it after..."
I would like to point out that I have never felt threatened by an author, I have been approached nicely by some about reading and reviewing there works and have no problem with that. But I have had a reply put on some of my reviews from authors that were a bit rude, telling me if I had read the book right I would have liked it and such? Mostly I find it amusing since, unless reading manga, I thought all books were read from page 1 to the end. I must find and try out this new reading that is out there :)
I think it must be hard for authors to find the right balance when putting there work out there so they get notice but not noticed in the wrong way. And I think that there are a lot of authors on this site that are doing it tastefully and respectfully but they unfortunately get overwhelmed by the ones that are a bit rabid in there enthusiasm.
I see nothing wrong with readers (who are not also authors) starting groups where no authors are allowed. It would be cool if GR made it so that groups could be setup with the choices of Readers Only, Authors Only, and Readers & Authors, so that people with particular profile types just couldn't join the restricted groups. Yeah, you'll still have some subterfuge with authors sneaking in to readers only groups with sock puppet accounts, but I doubt there could be much done about that.Readers should be able to congregate and talk about books without worrying about their conversations being hijacked by spammers.
Honestly, this thread is awesome. I'm glad to see readers saying what I've always assumed to be true: Readers hate when Authors are pushy! To me, common sense should tell authors who do this that it is a bad idea, because when has anyone ever successfully pushed you into buying something? I say successfully under the assumption that a sale equates to the actual reading (and hopefully the enjoyment) of the book, not just a purchase to make them leave you alone haha. As far as what you mentioned Rhoda, that you don't think readers will just 'find good books', what I meant when I said this (though I can't speak for others who made similar remarks) is that very little promotional work is needed if the book is good. Do a few giveaways, have a release party, join a blog tour, and being an awesome person in general is enough. A good book can sell itself was my point. It takes time for a book to get into enough readers hands for word of mouth to have an effect, but publishing is the 'hurry up and wait' game. It maybe be ten years before the word gets around about a good book, or it may be two. If you are crazy lucky, even less. Who knows? But one thing that has never, and will never, work it to try to force a book down readers' throats.
At conferences, one of the most common questions aspiring authors ask is for advice on how to 'break in' or 'be successful' or even 'get noticed by readers' and I give the same answer every time. Just write a damn good book. Period. Don't ever worry about being a salesmen.
Ok the temperature had gone down a notch..
K.S. wrote: "...As far as what you mentioned Rhoda, that you don't think readers will just 'find good books', what I meant when I said this ... is that very little promotional work is needed if the book is good. I agree with you completely KS. I am a reader and intelligent enough to decide for myself if a book is worth reading. Readers can always find good books. The key word here is "GOOD". Whether recommended or just instinct, no one needs to be pushed.
Christine wrote: "K.S. wrote: "...As far as what you mentioned Rhoda, that you don't think readers will just 'find good books', what I meant when I said this ... is that very little promotional work is needed if the..."At bookstore I would just normally go to the section I like. Havent done online browsing yet. Is that how you find the book you like?
S. wrote: "At bookstore I would just normally go to the section I like. Havent done online browsing yet. Is that how you find the book you like?" I love book stores and do browse them. The book store employees usually have great recommendations. I also browse on line. If an author impresses in discussions - I check them out and will check out their books (I ignore ratings and reviews - not reliable) and read the "Look Inside" then check out the synopsis and decide if it's for me.
But I use personal recommendations. My friends and family all are readers. There is also a long line of authors I especially love to read.
I'm glad we're on the same page, Christine! Sometimes I think authors and publishers both just don't give readers enough credit for knowing what they want/like. And Authors especially get so upset when a reader doesn't like their book, but I think the main thing we tend to forget is that what one person thinks is 'good' another might not, as far as genre, style, etc. Now, there is no excuse for poor writing, but just because I love SF and robots doesn't mean the rest of the world should. I spend more time on character interaction and plot, and less on setting and description. Lots of people like that, but just as many do not. And that's ok.I guess because writing is so very personal, authors can be easily offended, as if by not likely the book, by extension you do not like them. Or it's like someone calling your baby ugly haha. For example, I love coffee but if you told me you hated coffee why should I care? Heck, if I made you a cup and you hated that specific cup because I put too much sugar I still, obviously, wouldn't get mad because that cup of coffee wasn't a piece of my soul, like my fiction is.
Yet even still, I, nor should any other author, get 'mad' over a bad review and email a reader or comment on their review as some of you guys have mentioned. Sure, a bad review would hurt my feelings, I would be sad a reader could not derive joy from my work, but I would tell myself it's not personal. (this excludes reviews that are just down right spiteful and mean-spirited; I do think readers should be honest, not hurtful. Like, you wouldn't throw the coffee in my face and call me a whore because you didn't like it, but some reviews do, unfortunately, have these same sentiments).
I buy my books almost exclusively online these days. Once upon a time, I would hear about a book, check out the reviews to get a 'feel' for the book, then drive to the bookstore to buy a copy. The last times I tried to to this, I went in with a list of 8 books. Barnes & Noble only had 1 from my list. Now, I skip the store and buy from amazon usually. I tend to take review with a grain of salt though. I like recommendations from my friends best of all. The Paris Wife, I bought because of word of mouth and it is one of my favorite books. Ubik, on the other hand, is another favorite and I purchased that book on whim, although I was familiar enough with the author to know I would likely not be disappointed in the book.
Jen wrote: "Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "Jen wrote: "I hate FB...Anyone know of any other GR-like sites? Ones that still have readers?"
Booklikes has many similarities to Goodreads, but is..."
I second or third or whatever the endorsement of Booklikes. It's not exactly easy to figure out (for me, anyway, but I'm a tech idiot) but I like it and people read my reviews there and I read some good blogs. I have it set up so reviews and blogs are the first thing I see when I go in.
Christine wrote: "Are you looking for readers or buyers? I'm a reader not an author. Do we hide - absolutely! Do we interact with other members - yes, but very carefully. I always check out the members involved when..."I went into a Mystery group and put up a post: Any fellow readers out there? I got them to come out of the woodwork, and we shared our recommendations for new authors for each other to discover, and then we all went quietly away to read our new books. Just give the readers a shout, ask to talk to them. I even said I was frustrated to see the group having turned into a marketing thread. Authors don't always know how badly the constant hammering annoys readers, especially new authors. They think it's actually what they are supposed to do.
Goodreads is primarily a reader site and so it should remain. The problems arise because authors flock to a reader site like bees flocking to a meadow full of flowers. In an ideal world those readers would choose books that sound interesting to them, enjoy the reading experience and tell like-minded friends if they find a book they like. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, the viral nature of GR encourages too many authors to ask readers (far too often) to read and review.
This culture of R & R encourages readers to read books they may not like from genres they would not normally choose to read and then everyone is surprised and amazed when the bad reviews roll in? Of course they happen! They are bound to because we are all different. Readers are being encouraged (often spammed) to try books they probably won't enjoy and then authors get resentful because they think they have done the readers a favour by giving them away.
To put that in concrete terms, I don't like veal and am allergic to blue cheese so should I be grateful if someone gives me a free meal of veal in blue cheese sauce? Of course I wouldn't. I would hate it and I would say as much. I wouldn't expect the host to be cross because I couldn't eat one food I found morally reprehensible laced with another that might kill me! Yet when it comes to books we expect people to digest and enjoy anything they are given for free. Sorry authors, it just isn't going to happen.
As a reader, I choose to read books I think I will actually like so the reviews are good. I do not read books I won't like just because they are free. Life is too short. As an author I do my best to produce a good book and I use paid advertising but I neither spam the threads here nor ask for reviews! I hope a few people will read my books because they think they might enjoy them NOT because I become some sort of literary stalker or pest.
I do think the distinction between reader and writer is a tough one though because I have seen people who claim to be "only readers" writing in a far more eloquent way than some who easily lay claim to the title of "author".
To me, a book provided by an author to a reader in exchange for an honest review isn't technically free.
Gregor wrote: "To me, a book provided by an author to a reader in exchange for an honest review isn't technically free."Correct in one sense Gregor, but if the lure is that you provide a review almost as payment (rather than reading the book because you might enjoy it) then nobody can complain if the review is indeed honest as my food critique would have been.
Taking that example again, the host provides me veal in blue cheese sauce for an honest review? My review would be "I was totally unable to finish this. It was awful and it made me sick". Somebody else might have loved it and paid for it happily, but not me.
Returning to books, I buy books I think I will probably like and I review them if and when I do. No obligation, no risky choices, nobody feels hurt. The problem IMO is that promotion sites demand so many 4/5* reviews that authors feel they must get them by constant Giveaways and R & R. They then get upset because the readers don't enjoy the books they are given in exchange for an honest opinion rather than actively choosing them from a genre they enjoy.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (other topics)The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
I assume it was the thing about GR deleting shelves with titles judged as attacking authors (you know, books shelved under stuff ..."
ha ha ha, thanks!