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Where Have All The Readers Gone?
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I was in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam in February and again saw a person reading a book. This was in the park where they have gazebos where you can get free ballroom dancing lessons. Anyway, after several days I did notice the guy hadn't moved and was covered in bird shit. Rather than risk checking his pulse, I threw a frisbee at him. Not only did he not move, his head fell off. He was reading a Stephen King novel in Mandarin.
John wrote: "I was in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam in February and again saw a person reading a book. This was in the park where they have gazebos where you can get free ballroom dancing lessons. Anyway, after sev..."ha..i should start compiling such stories :)
John wrote: "Seven? I lost track. I found the videos very inspiring. Sometimes when we get caught up in our frustrations, we lose sight of the purity of purpose, i. e. what drives many great authors to do what they do. I thought it might be similarly encouraging to others. If the consensus is that my selflessly offering this link is juvenile or irrelevant, send me a list of the link placements and I will delete them. I'm just that kind of guy. "Well, it's just that since that entity/website is listed as the publisher of one of your books, it comes across as a little spammy (not so much "selfless"), that's all. And kind of an object lesson for this thread, which is maybe not the best advertising.
(If you are looking for the link placements, you can find them in your own comment history).
I debated responding to this thread. It seems a tricky proposition because the very question makes it clear readers are too inundated with authors pitching and making their presence known simply to sell books. (The irony of this lapsing into a thread on writer's standards about halfway through was also quite telling.)But after reading through every reply (and correct me if I missed it) I never saw the one response which kept playing in my head.
As an author, writer, whatever you want to call me, I'm sorry if we've made readers feel crowded out or even the least bit unwelcome. Hopefully we can do better.
Russ wrote: "I debated responding to this thread. It seems a tricky proposition because the very question makes it clear readers are too inundated with authors pitching and making their presence known simply to..."Well I have made a couple of comments (I think) back in this thread somewhere, and forgive me if I repeat myself, but having only joined this community recently, I have mainly been tiptoeing (spelling???) around trying to get my bearings. I come in here as a reader, a blog author, a commercial writer and translator. My only official book so far is substantially a photo book - and lots of 'also present' contemporary art catalogues and web sites as a ghost writer, so I guess I am still in the ranks of a 'wannabe' when it comes to true authorship.
So where am I heading with this? I have been totally gobsmacked (good old British expression) at the number of 'authors' throwing their book titles and links in threads all over the place, even where they seemingly don't belong. In some ways I can't help but admire these guerrilla tactics even though (here I put my reader hat back on) they can also be very irritating - but I also ask how effective this method is for objective appraisal and realistic marketing. Only the authors in question can answer that one for me.
Bear with me a little longer - I've almost done!
I look at my own personal relationships with people and how friendships and loyalties are built up. I much prefer a gentle approach. I am far more likely to be curious about a person who opens up gradually, allowing me to discover their values and capabilities. Trust is founded on a mutual exchange - a give and take affair.
If someone reads enough of my posts and thinks - 'I wonder what she does in life, where she lives and how she ticks' - personally (and I know because I have already done it for a number of you), I will still learn about the books you have published and how you write - what you do on your blog etc.etc., without your having to shove it all in my face.
Right?
Just my approach and one of the reasons I avoid most author threads even though I would like to be one - a serious and dedicated one, as I know many of you already are.
Ok - I'm off. I have some translations to do for those of you who might be interested. :)
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "John wrote: "Seven? I lost track. I found the videos very inspiring. Sometimes when we get caught up in our frustrations, we lose sight of the purity of purpose, i. e. what drives many great author..."safe to say readers are still hiding..
Janys wrote: "Russ wrote: "I debated responding to this thread. It seems a tricky proposition because the very question makes it clear readers are too inundated with authors pitching and making their presence kn..."we are living in the age of un-innocence?
Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I belong to a few groups that are mostly readers. They are however genre specific.
I wanted to reply to this topic because the problems I have been having lately stem from the readers!
For the past few months, when I post something about a certain series I am reading, I get slammed. It is because I don't share the same sentiments about certain characters and plots as the other readers do.
I end up being belittled, and talked down to or totally ignored altogether.
I think this probably happens to alot of readers. They are bullied because of their views, and thus they leave.
What's left? A bunch of authors promoting their works and few readers to read them.
From my experience, I feel like all of the readers need to stop bullying each other and agree to disagree instead of bullying each other over our own opinions.
This is supposed to be a community where we can discuss books and ideas. Instead it has turned into a 2nd grade class room. You have the ones who cry for attention, "In my book 'Self published POS...", and the bully typing in all caps when they reply to a post you made and of course, the moderator that all of the members suck a$$ too...thats enough to make anyone leave GR.
Can't we all just get along and be accept in of each other? This is a cornucopia of knowledge...meaning there will be differing opinions. That's what makes it great.
As it is though, get used to their being mostly authors promoting their books because the readers are tired of being harassed.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I belong to a few groups that are mostly readers. They are however genre spe..."
being harassed left and right then these readers!
Janys wrote: "Russ wrote: "I debated responding to this thread. It seems a tricky proposition because the very question makes it clear readers are too inundated with authors pitching and making their presence kn..."If there was an "I really REALLY like/luv this post" button, I'd click it ten times right now. Awesome comment. btw I luv 'gobsmacked' it's kool and btw number two, I'm a brit, living in New Joisey :)
Vanessa Eden wrote: "Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I belong to a few groups that are mostly readers. They are however genre spe..."
I personally feel that one of the big problems lies in the fact that people buy/use computers and muddle along without ever really having taken the time to think about what 'behaviour' is acceptable in online relationships. This situation might be prevalent in members of the older generation as I believe most schooling these days sets down the basics about netiquette and flaming.
What is definitely the case is that we can so easily forget that online communication cuts out body language thus giving the words various possible interpretations.
I have worked/volunteered for many years on forums - including during periods of study - and I find that they can be very lonely places. Very few people make a direct reply to the poster and you can end up feeling ignored. Blogs are just the same. Most comments tend to come from spammers anyway, so in my case, I have eliminated comments altogether. If someone wants to say something to me they can contact me with the contact form. And if they don't, it could be they didn't find anything interesting enough to comment on.
Can't we all just get along and be accept in of each other? This is a cornucopia of knowledge...meaning there will be differing opinions. That's what makes it great.
Well said!
Stephan wrote: "Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I agree that there are many groups where authors speak more than readers. In..."
Thank you! I will look into that group!
Rhoda wrote: "Lisa wrote: "KDP forums..."I left the KDP forums just because I thought the place was insane. Everyone was jumping on each other. If you didn't like a book, you got jumped on. If someone didn't ..."
The KDP forums certainly get rather...vociferous.
Turhan wrote: "Janys wrote: "Russ wrote: "I debated responding to this thread. It seems a tricky proposition because the very question makes it clear readers are too inundated with authors pitching and making the..."LOL - and I would push that same button for your nice, simple GR presentation. :)
ps - a little off topic, but over on one of the Italian threads we are discussing crowdfunding to purchase Dracula's castle ... :)
How would that be for a writers' workshop??? Wow!
I think the last reader was spotted heading to starbucks yesterday to start work on their first novel.
Vanessa wrote: "I think the last reader was spotted heading to starbucks yesterday to start work on their first novel."Ha ha ha!
Janys wrote: "Vanessa Eden wrote: "Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I belong to a few groups that are mostly readers. They..."
while it's true facial expression & gesture are important signifiers of meaning when we talk to one another, there really is no excuse for so called writers, masters of letters, to be imprecise and indiscriminate with their posts. If it's not a question of being slapdash & loose, then it is a demonstration of a complete lack of professionalism in their relationships. Even SP authors need to be professional because they will still have key relationships, to readers and reviewers if nobody else.
As to readers hounding other readers, it's inevitable when you introduce genres and sub-genres into literature, because this encourages tribalism and militant behaviour to defend the 'purity' and 'fundamental rules' of what makes a book say urban fantasy against what makes it horror (not to pick on just these two genres). Genre diminishes readers, authors and the books themselves. Books don't have to conform to anything except a requirement to be entertaining to the reader. And even entertainment comes in different forms. I'm not entertained by story particularly, but by language, ideas, images and artistry.
Because of the indie author explosion, the market is saturated and the supply of books now outnumbers the demand for books. Readers no longer have to search for books since they are bombarded with new releases every day. Readers are thus harder to find and it is far more difficult for an author to get noticed (whether traditionally published or going it on their own). Success of any kind for either new to the book world will be hard to come by barring a very fortunate few. The situation will remain thus until the indie author wave subsides.
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "John wrote: "Seven? I lost track. I found the videos very inspiring. Sometimes when we get caught up in our frustrations, we lose sight of the purity of purpose, i. e. what drives many great author..."I'm impressed that you researched the site and found it was my publisher's home page. That required some digging on your part, driven I am sure by some perverse need to expose the "real story" behind my efforts. However, it should be obvious to everyone, I never mentioned my book and my link was directly to the interview videos. Again, I thought people would find it useful and inspiring to be able to see so many interesting videos in one place.
I have to question the motives and mentality of anyone who would interpret this a "a little spammy" or spammy at all. If on page 96 of Time Magazine, you were listed as one of several up-and-coming authors, but you directed my attention exclusively to an interesting and informative feature article on page 10 discussing, let's say, global warming, I have to say it would never occur to me that you were taking such an oblique approach to attempt to promote yourself. But that's just me. I assume that others are well-meaning and forthright until proven otherwise.
By the way, discussion participants, have you been to Sarah's excellent personal website? ... http://sarahsar.booklikes.com/
She does a bang up job reviewing books. Try it, you'll like it!
Also, if you want to request her as a friend, here's the link to her personal Goodreads page ... https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/1...
"Where Have All The Readers Gone?" Here's a good start to answering that question ...
Marc wrote: "Janys wrote: "Vanessa Eden wrote: "Jen wrote: "Can anyone point me in the direction of an active GR group (not genre specific) made up mostly of readers?"I belong to a few groups that are mostly..."
bookish militancy??
John wrote: "I'm impressed that you researched the site and found it was my publisher's home page. That required some digging on your part, driven I am sure by some perverse need to expose the "real story" behind my efforts."Not really, I just looked at one of your books that you've been promoting and noticed that the name was the same. Isn't that what you wanted people to do? Check out your books?
Granted, it took marginally more effort than you clicking on my profile to post the link to my profile (?), though I'm not sure what point you were making with that.
"I have to question the motives and mentality of anyone who would interpret this a "a little spammy" or spammy at all."
Posting the same link repeatedly to threads where it has nothing to do with the subject while claiming that you have no connection to the website when it is, in fact, your website, is spammy. Even if your website cures all the world's ills. But I wouldn't have said anything except for the topic and discussion in this particular thread, though I suspect you haven't read it.
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "John wrote: "I'm impressed that you researched the site and found it was my publisher's home page. That required some digging on your part, driven I am sure by some perverse need to expose the "rea..."oh! full of drama!
Jen wrote: "This discussion got kind of creepy."yeah! still unable to find the answer to your original question..
S. wrote: "Jen wrote: "This discussion got kind of creepy."yeah! still unable to find the answer to your original question.."
Turns out, they're all hiding in a warehouse in Tulsa...
Jen wrote: "S. wrote: "Jen wrote: "This discussion got kind of creepy."yeah! still unable to find the answer to your original question.."
Turns out, they're all hiding in a warehouse in Tulsa..."
a warehouse that was formerly devoted to hardback books until the e-book revolution kicked in and now the space is going vacant...
Marc wrote: "As to readers hounding other readers, it's inevitable when you introduce genres and sub-genres into literature, because this encourages tribalism and militant behaviour to defend the 'purity' and 'fundamental rules' of what makes a book say urban fantasy against what makes it horror (not to pick on just these two genres). Genre diminishes readers, authors and the books themselves. Books don't have to conform to anything except a requirement to be entertaining to the reader."You are so right Marc! Well said.
@Rhoda - As for the KDP forums which I do check out a little too often) there are some very sharp and critical voices on there. To be fair, there are also some helpful members. Generally speaking however, it tends not to be friendly to newbies. Questions are frequently greeted with "search the threads like we did" or otherwise scolding. On the other hand it can be quite rewarding to lurk there and pick up the titbits of wisdom dropped from on high. ;)
I am an independant author and have made the mistake of commeting on reviews a couple of times early in my publishing experience, but it was ALWAYS a mistake. Authors get understandably emotional about their work. We spend a lot of time on it. However, just like you do your son no favors by getting on their school bus and beating up their bullies, you do your book no favors by going bullistic in the comment section of someone's blog. Even if you kinda have a point, you never come off well. You look defensive and that only damages the viability of your work. Everyone gets bad reviews (Just look at Hunger Games and Harry Potter - both book series that are ENORMOUSLY popular - and they both have 1 Star ratings in the THOUSANDS on Goodreads!) If you want to be a part of this business you have to be thick-skinned. If someone writes me a bad review now I read it and then forget about it (Reviews are really only meaningful in agregate anyway). If it is from someone whom I asked for a review, like a a review blogger for instance, I thank them for their time (and not in any sort of back handed way like "Dear X, I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand how great my book is. Thanks anyway." Rather, I just write a brief note "Thank you for your time and effort in reviewing my work." It does you no good to burn bridges and just because someone didn't like one thing you wrote doesn't mean they won't like something else. Or if the reviewer IS being unreasonable (My most recent book is a retold fairy tale and a negative review I got one time started with 'I don't like retold fairy tales..." So why'd you read it in the first place?) you won't be the only person to notice. All in all, you can never go wrong by being classy, because the reviewer is NEVER the only person watching and you are far more likely to turn-off potential readers with a rant than convince anyone how right you are.
Davidm - Thank you! I've seen that. A lot of that (I'm sorry you are too stupid to appreciate my work comments). They actually, ALWAYS, make me LIVID...
I like your attitude!
Marc wrote: "a bunch of stuff about writing skill and the power of words, and how those things get him a bit turned on."Ditto.
[Edit: I do have an observation regarding genre - I don't care about "genre purity", and yes, write whatever you damn' well please. But if a book is being shopped to me as a police procedural, I'm going to be pretty pissed if vampires show up, without prior advisory.]
We live, we learn and in the end when the creative flame dims we walk away... I just saw a great program on BBC 2 about Philip Roth who no longer wishes to write. He said in interview that he felt like an amateur every time he started a book. Wow! So much better than believing oneself to be professional when one really isn't. Perhaps there just comes a point where there is nothing more to say? Perhaps there just comes a point where keeping one's one counsel is preferable? Perhaps it is simply more beautiful to be a reader?
Cphe wrote: "How long do you think this "indie wave" will last for?"For as long as new humans are born into the world.
Lisa wrote: "We live, we learn and in the end when the creative flame dims we walk away... I just saw a great program on BBC 2 about Philip Roth who no longer wishes to write. He said in interview that he felt ..."I've read a fair bit of Philip Roth and he is a very patchy writer, or should I say was as he has since hung up his typewriter. On that score, yes I think it is possible for a writer to write absolutely everything they have to say and so retire. In Roth's case that's probably only after what 30+ novels? For an author to run out of words after just one or two novels is not quite the same thing.
As to the mixed quality of his oeuvre. "American Pastoral" is in my top 10 novels of all time as it is simply a beautifully constructed work that contains everything I think one could wish for in a novel, while painting an epic picture of post-war America in an accessible and illuminating way. Another book "The Plot Against America" while flawed, shows a serious literary author breaking down boundaries as he has written a speculative 'what if' alternate history novel. But then you have so many of his other books in which he both plays tiresome post-modern games of having himself as an author in them, playing hide and seek with the reader as to just how much of this fictional character represents the real Philip Roth. Now this might not be quite so tiresome, were it not for these novels being about priapic Jewish middle aged men (and initially teenagers in Roth's early career) obsessed with their sexual performance or getting enough. In these books I feel Roth is a literary version of Woody Allen and they are so egotistical & craving a reader's indulgence that personally I wasn't prepared to give with any good grace on my part.
So I think when Roth makes his statement about being an amateur, i think he does it knowingly with a wink and is playing another one of his hide and seek games as I feel he did throughout the whole of the first part of this interview which I saw last week. Having said that, i will still watch part 2, for no other reason than to hear him hopefully discuss "American Pastoral". But as he himself said in part 1, he doesn't like talking about the books. And why should he, believing that the words in the books speak for themselves.
Marc wrote: "In these books I feel Roth is a literary version of Woody Allen and they are so egotistical & craving a reader's indulgence that personally I wasn't prepared to give with any good grace on my part. So I think when Roth makes his statement about being an amateur, i think he does it knowingly with a wink and is playing another one of his hide and seek games as I feel he did throughout the whole of the first part of this interview which I saw last week."
Excellent points there Marc. I really did not like Portnoy's Complaint very much when I read it as a fairly strait laced young lady, but some of the later books look really fascinating and I have a feeling you can grow into Roth. Human Stain is one I want to put on my radar along with The Humbling and of course American Pastoral.
John wrote: "This looks like a great read!
"Err thanks John, I better start just lurking now :)
Not really sure what the point of that was...
Lisa wrote: "KDP forums...Thanks for you input. I admit, I jumped in there asking questions. But its funny how you get blamed on one forum for NOT researching and asking questions, but then get blamed on another for asking questions! LOL Lurking might be a better idea than avoiding it. Thanks
Lisa wrote: "We live, we learn and in the end when the creative flame dims we walk away... I just saw a great program on BBC 2 about Philip Roth who no longer wishes to write. He said in interview that he felt ..."I fear that I have reached that phase before even starting :(
I sometimes get that feeling of no longer wanting to publish with all that entails (promoting, marketing).Writing is my outlet, I don't think I'll stop writing.
I don't think I could ever stop writing. It is what I do and who I am. I cannot stop something that us as natural as breathing. However, I may choose never to allow anyone to read it. I do it for me, that's all and that's enough.
Cphe wrote: "Gregor wrote: "Cphe wrote: "How long do you think this "indie wave" will last for?"For as long as new humans are born into the world."
I've seen similar answers on Amazon regarding - "things wi..."
I don't mind indie at all, long live indie, its the punks that I don't want to have to try and read.
Gregor wrote: "Cphe wrote: "How long do you think this "indie wave" will last for?"For as long as new humans are born into the world."
I disagree. Everything has its ebb and flow. Even now the indie wave is no longer of tidal proportions. A lot of people have realized writing a book does not equate to getting rich quick; their sole reason for writing the drivel they published. Nor is writing a book as easy as they thought. Those who care about the craft, who write because they love to do so, they will continue, and that is good.
Cphe wrote: "I noticed earlier on the thread that one poster stated that a lot of the drama between indies and readers would hopefully die down when the "indie wave" had subsided.This has been happening for t..."
The drama is a bit older I think. I joined GR is 2008 to get away from the reader-author drama over at Amazon, which was what led them to create the whole "Meet Our Authors" section around 2009. That was when Amazon told all of the authors to quit posting their 'shameful self promotions' all over the customer discussion threads (their words, not mine). Threads were blowing up with full on battles every day. Authors argued with readers that they should have the right to disrupt threads to promote, and that Amazon OWED them this right, while readers weren't buying it and causing quite a fight in return. (The customers eventually won that battle, but it left a lot of wounded and dead bodies!)
So will the drama ever end? Since most of the drama circles around two topics: 1) the reviews and/or 2) bad promotional tactics (spamming, schilling, review swapping...etc.) I don't see an end in site. As long as there are new naive authors joining the game with unrealistic expectations of readers, as well as little knowledge of social media etiquette, I don't think it will ever go away.
However, seasoned authors who have been around the block a few times, as David mentioned in an earlier post, can get away from the drama by simply learning from the bad practices that get authors & readers in the mess. Readers and reviewers can also learn too, by simply reporting the violation and not fanning the flames (of which I am certainly guilty of participating in), and hopefully the site moderators will take care of the situation.
♡Karlyn P♡ wrote: "Cphe wrote: "I noticed earlier on the thread that one poster stated that a lot of the drama between indies and readers would hopefully die down when the "indie wave" had subsided.This has been ha..."
Excellent analysis. Spot on.
♡Karlyn P♡ wrote: "As long as there are new naive authors joining the game with unrealistic expectations of readers, as well as little knowledge of social media etiquette, I don't think it will ever go away. "Thanks for the historical perspective. The problem with new authors is not so much unrealistic expectations of readers as a credulous trust in the self-help Write a Bestseller eBook they bought. What they fail to notice is that these self-help authors have usually only succeeded in selling books to aspiring writers and so are clueless about selling to readers - hence the promotion of annoying (to readers) promotional practices.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (other topics)The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
By the way, great author interview videos here ...
http://www.literaryvagabond.com/inter..."
Wow, this must be quite a site, since you've..."
Seven? I lost track. I found the videos very inspiring. Sometimes when we get caught up in our frustrations, we lose sight of the purity of purpose, i. e. what drives many great authors to do what they do. I thought it might be similarly encouraging to others. If the consensus is that my selflessly offering this link is juvenile or irrelevant, send me a list of the link placements and I will delete them. I'm just that kind of guy.