And Then There Were None - Spoiler Thread

[Christine]

This thread is for discussion of the specific content of our August 2016 New School Group Read selection, And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. Feel free to post and discuss spoilers in this thread.

[RT]

When the record started playing in the house, I was like: Now you have my attention Agatha ;D

[siriusedward]

And i liked the way she introduced various characters...the thoughts..the letters...

Also, miss Brent is one harsh unforgiving character...

And mr.Lombard is a cool customer...

Marston was a superstar kind of guy.very suave.

[RT]

siriusedward wrote: "And i liked the way she introduced various characters...the thoughts..the letters...

Also, miss Brent is one harsh unforgiving character...

And mr.Lombard is a cool customer...

Marston was a sup..."

I have to tell something, I have to tell! I was suspecting the judge since the beginning! From my perspective as a reader, he was making an effort to be impartial, although kind of assuming the position of a leader. And then I found him too persuasive. But I would never ever guess that he faked his death, or his reasons and all the rest, so the writer caught me anyway ;p

[Nix]

I have to tell something, I have to tell! I was suspecting the judge since the beginning! From my perspective as a reader, he was making an effort to be impartial, although kind of assuming the position of a leader. And then I found him too persuasive. But I would never ever guess that he faked his death, or his reasons and all the rest, so the writer caught me anyway ;p

It was the same for me, although I had my doubts, because it just seemed too obvious. But then she totally fooled me with his fake death and I was pretty clueless until the end. It's probably for the best that I'm not a detective.

[siriusedward]

I too had my doubts for some time at least.then of course he died or faked his death.

[Paula]

Nix wrote: "... I had my doubts, because it just seemed too obvious. ..."

It's always the most obvious person who is the killer in Christie's book. The amazing thing is that it's usually not obvious to the reader because that solution seems impossible.

[Phil]

So, the judge designs murders for fun and to prove he's clever.

Agatha Christie designs murders for fun and to prove she's clever.

Is this a roman a clef?

[Joy]

In hindsight, the faked death was a bit more garish than the others and should have been a clue. Like others, I thought the judge was a likely candidate until his "death." Then I settled back into my first idea that there had to be someone else on or coming to the island, like maybe the boat driver?

[Joy]

Phil wrote: "So, the judge designs murders for fun and to prove he's clever.

Agatha Christie designs murders for fun and to prove she's clever.

Is this a roman a clef?"

I'm not sure it would classify as an actual roman a clef since the judge isn't really just a picture of Christie with a fictional name, but there is definitely the tongue-in-cheek feeling in the confession note of Christie peeking through.

At the beginning of my copy is an excert from Christie's autobiography that tells how pleased she was with how the book came out, much like the confession claims pleasure in how the murder plan came together.

Also, it's hard to not feel like Christie is speaking directly to the reader when the confession says, "It was my ambition to invent a murder mystery that no one could solve."

[Phil]

I thought it was really interesting that all the characters deserved to die. The reader is guided to identify most with the governess and maybe the soldier of fortune, but she turns out to be a child-killer. When I read this with a teenager earlier this summer, his denial was so strong that he thought she was innocent, so I had to reread the chapter with him.

[siriusedward]

I liked lomfard though as he is honest about his nature
.vera l never warmed upto she was a child killer yet tries to justify it..
Miss brent ebe blamed much .after all governess or companions were expected to be pure..times being do they were cast out.hard times.and i was afraid of her.no compassion.judgemental.
Even the general cant be blamed too much, he was just taking vengeance for betrayal...

[Phil]

siriusedward wrote: "I liked lomfard though as he is honest about his nature"

Lombard is really interesting. Our first impression of Lombard is his anti Semitic rant about the guy who hired him. Later, we found out he left some Africans to die because "that's what they're for." Still, he's presented similarly to Vera, as a character we will focus on and maybe cheer for because of his admirable qualities (honesty, coolheadedness, being nice to Vera).

Did Christie expect us to identify with this character? Her own attitudes have been called into question, both for the original title of the book and other incidents.

[Sarah]

siriusedward wrote: "And i liked the way she introduced various characters...the thoughts..the letters...

Also, miss Brent is one harsh unforgiving character...

And mr.Lombard is a cool customer...

Marston was a sup..."

I liked the way introductions were handled too.

I also thought it was interesting how things went from set up to people dying just BAM. Now the story is really rolling folks. I wasn't expecting it to start quite so abruptly.

[Chris]

Phil wrote: "siriusedward wrote: "Her own attitudes have been called into question, both for the original title of the book and other incidents."

Couldn't the title itself be a play on what Lombard did and felt about the men from the tribe he left to die? As he relates it:

"Not quite the act of a pukka sahib, I’m afraid. But self-preservation’s a man’s first duty. And natives don’t mind dying, you know. They don’t feel about it as Europeans do."

The irony is that these 10 (I'm presuming they are all European) are stranded on an island and left to die.

[siriusedward]

When you put it like that yeah he is not nice, at all.really they dont mind dying??
I did not really think of that.though i did think of him as guiltless and conscience less and thats horrible.to do such a thing and to not care.no regrets.

[Terry]

My guess was that each guest would murder one of the other guests because of a hateful feeling regarding their accused crime or an insult received during the week on the island. Then the last person would commit suicide. I was way off. I doubt any "reader" could have guessed this ending as their is no visual to clue you in to a faked death. Excellent mystery

[Annika]

Chris wrote: "Phil wrote: "siriusedward wrote: "Her own attitudes have been called into question, both for the original title of the book and other incidents."

Couldn't the title itself be a play on what Lombar..."

I've read the book a few times and this never occurred to me, great point.

[Sarah]

Chris wrote: "Phil wrote: "siriusedward wrote: "Her own attitudes have been called into question, both for the original title of the book and other incidents."

Couldn't the title itself be a play on what Lombar..."

siriusedward wrote: "When you put it like that yeah he is not nice, at all.really they dont mind dying??
I did not really think of that.though i did think of him as guiltless and conscience less and thats horrible.to d..."

His attitude was probably a combination of an attitude of a Western superiority complex and a gross misunderstanding of ideas from other cultures.
For some reason in Western culture we tend to have a fear of death (never made much sense to me, why fear something inevitable?). A lot of other cultures see it differently, as something not to fear.
But what he obviously missed about it is that there is a big difference between not fearing and not minding.

Terry wrote: "My guess was that each guest would murder one of the other guests because of a hateful feeling regarding their accused crime or an insult received during the week on the island. Then the last perso..."

That was what I kind of expected too.

I found it very interesting that in the end these were all people who could be argued to "deserve" to die for things they did, but they all were people the law couldn't touch. Beyond being a mystery novel, it highlights the flaws in the legal system in a thought provoking way. Whether that was Christie's intent or not, I don't know.

[Alia]

Phil wrote: "siriusedward wrote: "Did Christie expect us to identify with this character? Her own attitudes have been called into question, both for the original title of the book and other incidents."

It is probably nearly impossible for any historical person who happened to be white and British to be completely… pure in this regard. I like reading old books, and had to decide that authors don't matter. The book can speak for itself, and the author is just a name on the cover. I also don't think most stories would be as enjoyable if all the main characters were one hundred percent likeable.

I promise to care about who Christie was as a person when I read her biography.
______________________________
The story took me by surprise, at least. I fully expected the culprit to be one of the three or four living characters. It may be a sign of my not reading a lot of mystery novels that I never suspected a faked death.

[Sharon]

This was my first Christie book, and I loved it. I also liked the way the introductions were performed. All ten people deserving of death. I suspected a faked death, but did not know who. I kind of thought it may have been one of the first deaths, but it wasn't. I guess the judge needed to be around longer to "stir the pot". This book deserves a reread.

[MKay]

My first Christie, too. Did not even think of a fake death.

[Sylwia]

I have read several Christie's now. This one is okay, it's too cruel. The Poirot's are the best and The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is my fave. Best to go into it with no expectations.

[Simone]

Phil wrote: "So, the judge designs murders for fun and to prove he's clever.

Agatha Christie designs murders for fun and to prove she's clever.

Is this a roman a clef?"
I'm glad you wrote that -- it makes the whole thing more interesting. I finished the book last night and I'm glad to have finally read one of Christie's books, but I doubt I'll be reading another one.

[Renee]

Sylwia wrote: "I have read several Christie's now. This one is okay, it's too cruel. The Poirot's are the best and The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is my fave. Best to go into it with no expectations."

I also like her Poirot novels, but I loved And Then There Were None. It was such a great book. The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is one of my favourites. I never would have guessed the end of that one.

[Phil]

Thanks, Simone!

[Warner]

Guys, I was so convinced that it was the Boat Driver that I almost threw my book at the end. It added up beautifully to me. He doesn't come for supplies so we wrote him off, but perhaps he had a secret cove or a separate island. When the governess found the seaweed in her room, I was giddy because I assumed I guess the ending. Either the governess kills the last person with her and hangs herself or she's the last remaining and the boat driver responds to the SOS only to kill her and stage the suicide. I knew the hook was a foreshadowing. I was so disappointed in it being the judge though because there just didn't seem to be enough evidence stacked against him. In the Poirot novels that I've read I remember seeing little clues that pointed me to a specific character. This one was honestly a red herring. Ah well, I give it a 3/5 stars for tying in the nursery rhyme because that was cool.

[Joy]

I thought it was the boat driver too.

[Nente]

Reading your discussion about how all the characters deserved to die, I remembered that there was another Christie book where someone "collected" unpunished murderers, but that one was more realistic: (spoiler about the other book) (view spoiler)[he was in fact mistaken about one of the four, who was merely present during an accidental death. Cards on the Table (hide spoiler)]

[Melanti]

For off-the-wall theories, I assumed the butler had an evil twin, and that there was some tiny hidden compartment somewhere within the home that was using to hide.

Now, how the butler's evil twin got money to fund all of it - that, I was a bit unsure about.

I knew there was something fishy going on with the judge's death and that there had to be someone else other than the official suspects responsible, but I hadn't considered a faked death either.

[Summer]

I definitely thought it was the boat driver too!

[Sue]

I enjoyed reading this, but the ending bugged me since it was impossible for anyone to figure out.

As some others, I also thought it was the Judge, but with a faked death, how could anyone know? I thought it was going to be a great ending even as the Judge was revealed as the killer. I thought it would be that he left the remaining few to turn on each other. If there were clues to the faked death, then the ending wouldn't have bothered me.

Oh well. It was still a fun read. I liked the way the characters were listed in the beginning so that you got to know them more quickly and had something to refer back to if you forgot one. I liked the theme of vigilante justice for those who got away with their crimes (not that I agree with actual vigilante justice). I also like the tying the deaths to the nursery rhyme and the torture of them going one by one.

But just as I'm typing this, I realized that there was a clue to a faked death, in the very beginning, the character list shows that the two from Scotland Yard had concluded that there was no murderer, so it couldn't have been seen as the last man standing. I guess I'll change my stars from 3 to 4. My ending couldn't have worked because then the chair couldn't have moved and they'd have had to conclude that Vera did it.

[Joy]

I kicked myself for not figuring out the faked death because the whole scene with the wig and the weird body setting was so different from the other murders. I did thing it was strange, but didn't pick up on its significance.

[Sue]

Joy wrote: "I kicked myself for not figuring out the faked death because the whole scene with the wig and the weird body setting was so different from the other murders. I did thing it was strange, but didn't ..."

Yes, that too. Good point Joy!

[Sue]

FMS wrote: "I enjoyed the read and didn't get anywhere close to figuring out the murderer! I was convinced that there was another person creeping around in the house, and who would be revealed at the very end...."

I was thinking that by the end too. Like others, I thought maybe the boat driver, that he had a way to hide his boat by a rock or something.

[siriusedward]

Melanti wrote: "For off-the-wall theories, I assumed the butler had an evil twin, and that there was some tiny hidden compartment somewhere within the home that was using to hide.

Now, how the butler's evil twin ..."

I thought about secret passages and secret entrances too...
But the stern and dispassionate tone of the judge tugged me....but not strongly..
I thought of miss Brent too.. religious fanatic and all....

[Luella]

I didn't figure it out either that's what kind of saved it from a one star rating. I think if I think about it I might bump it up to three but right now its a two because the characters sort of annoyed me a bit.

[Sarah]

Luella wrote: "I didn't figure it out either that's what kind of saved it from a one star rating. I think if I think about it I might bump it up to three but right now its a two because the characters sort of ann..."

I have to agree about the characters in this one. I can't say I liked any of them or found them sympathetic even in a twisted way.

[Nima]

Wow. You know, for a good while I was thinking the perpetrator was Fred Narracott, then in those last few scenes I thought it could be an unknown 11th person (regardless of how unlikely that was)...damn was I wrong! To think he was undiscovered in his room for almost half the story is just too chilling!

[Lynn, New School Classics]

The May 2024 Revisit the Shelf book is And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie.


This is the Spoiler Thread. What did you think of the book? Did anything surprise you? An advantage of the Revisit books is that there are comments from before. Be sure to give your opinion and comment on any post you like!

[Jessica-sim]

This is such a temptation! I have many other books to read and read this only already three times or so but I’m a big fan of this book. If I won’t read along I will still peek in here once in a while… 👀

[Lynn, New School Classics]

I am posting this idea in both the Spoiler and No Spoiler threads. I have tried before to read this book, but DNF (did not finish). I think the problem was I was listening to an audiobook. Even with a paper copy in front of me, the audiobook was moving too quickly.

This time I am only reading on paper. I am taking time to underline names and important characteristics. I realized this time that there is a new chapter started each time a new character is discussed. So there are the introduction chapters. Next, there are the reactions to being on the island chapters, etc... obvious on paper, but confusing in the audiobook. It didn't seem like a linear story on the audiobook due to each character getting separate chapters.

One other audiobook oddity is that some of the objectional language is missing from my audiobook. There are chapters so clipped that they don't make sense. The book has it all.

[Wayne]

Personally, I've had mixed results with audiobooks. Mysteries never work for me in that medium because I tend to miss too many details and then I just get lost.

I did, however, listen to this immediately after reading it on paper, and that was OK since I was mostly reviewing the plot and clues. Actually it was pretty entertaining to spot all the clues that I missed on my initial paper-read.

[JenniferAustin]

I read this in a paper copy, objectionable language and all. I have not tried an audio version but think I would have the same problem with this book. There's a lot going on!

[Luffy Sempai]

JenniferAustin wrote: "I read this in a paper copy, objectionable language and all. I have not tried an audio version but think I would have the same problem with this book. There's a lot going on!"

According to wiki, the very objectionable original title was changed to Ten Little Indians. I hardly felt insulted, instead it felt good to be culturally relevant. Christie was British of course, so the Indians in the revised edition were certainly Asians. Then the Indianised title was a decision for the American version of the book.

According to the same article, the book is the biggest selling mystery book of all time. Take that, Gone Girl.

[Veronique]

Just re-read it yesterday. Lots of great comments :O)

I also didn’t get it the first time I read it, and I don’t think you’re meant to... I’ve read nearly all of Christie, and most of the time, there will be a clue, something that will lead you to the culprit. Also, there was no humour or irony whatsoever, something Christie again usually has. To me, this novel is more of an ‘exercise’, expertly done. All are examples of different types of murderers, and none are remorseful. Even the Judge - he doesn’t kill for Justice but because he wanted to kill. He just allows himself to do it by choosing murderers that escaped the system, and even this is on such light ground.

Now the racists slurs, an aspect of Christie that has always been problematic to me. There are quite a few here, due to the unsavoury nature of the characters, and the contemporary age. The original title thankfully was changed since it was highly offensive (and the irony of the first change, which was still offensive). I still don’t think Christie meant to be shocking or racist. She often used poems / nursery rhymes in her titles. Also, when I read her biography of her time in Syria and Iraq in the 1930s helping her second husband’s archeological work, you can see she loved the land and people. And yet, those unpalatable words are present. I admit it could be me trying to defend her since she is one of my favourite authors.

[Luffy Sempai]

Veronique wrote: "Just re-read it yesterday. Lots of great comments :O)

I also didn’t get it the first time I read it, and I don’t think you’re meant to... I’ve read nearly all of Christie, and most of the time, th..."

Good points. It took WW2 and its horrors to happen for Christie to realise that she had to remove her antisemitic slurs from her books. But the Italians were part of the Axis alliance, so retaining the word 'Dago' is understandable.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

When it comes to the slurs, I have mixed feelings. Slurs are of course repulsive. In real life they are absolutely without any excuse.
But in the mouth of murderers were they there to establish the reprehensible nature of the characters? Today authors would not use that technique, but then? I have a feeling my copy printed in the last 20 years was very cleaned up - for instance the title was obviously changed. Many other offensive words may have been removed and I am not aware of them.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie (1939) May 9, 2024 3*

So I finished it this time. My reaction is a definite, shrug? meh?

My mother LOVED Agatha Christie. I find them boring. There were a few points where it picked up a bit.

This helps me know what I like about reading. I really like new and interesting ideas like I find in Science Fiction. A good example of this was my reading of 20000 Leagues Under the Sea.

I like book series because you see long-arc character development. So many series will follow a character growing up and going through different stages of life. Anne of Green Gables, Emily of New Moon, even the much loved/much hated Harry Potter series or Twilight.

I like books where you see change and growth in characters. You follow those characters in their important life decisions. Example Jane Eyre

I have always felt Agatha Christie takes a set number of characters, puts them all together, and any of them could have done it. The whole thing feels so random. Contrast this with the Father Brown Mysteries. Father Brown understands the person first, then when a crime happens, he understands who must have done it due to his perception of each of the characters' personalities.

The only other Agatha Christie novel I have tried to read is Murder on the Nile. I found it boring and DNF.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

I was rereading the discussion above about false leads. Like Melanti I also wondered if the butler had a twin brother and they were somehow working together. As a few people mentioned, my other guess was the boatman who brought the party to the island. I also did not expect someone was pretending to be dead.

I am a little surprised at Vera's death.