THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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2016 - August - Theme Read on any Personality of WW2
Curtis Lemay confirmed that he knew about the bomb long before Truman, as he was in command of the bomb group that would deliver it.
Mike wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "According to McCullough, Truman wasn't briefed about the Manhattan Project until he had been president for 12 days.,..."What was Truman's reaction?"
Not sure - but he was not adverse to using it.
I know that prior to being vice-President he was in charge of investigating military projects that were over-budget or over-spending - and he came onto the Manhattan Project - he was told to leave that one alone (may have mentioned that in your book)
Mikey B. wrote: "Mike wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "According to McCullough, Truman wasn't briefed about the Manhattan Project until he had been president for 12 days.,..."What was Truman's reaction?"
Not sure - but he..."
Mikey: That's true. In 1943, his senate investigative committee stumbled on a series of significant payments and other activities -- including the acquisition of the 500,000 acre Hanford site in Washington. They began to sniff around. Truman called Sec. of War Stimson. Stimson told him he was aware of the activities Truman was investigating. These activities were connected to an "important secret development." Stimson vouched for the payments and land condemnations. Truman replied to Stimson: "You assure that this is for a specific purpose and you think it's all right. That's all I need to know." The Truman Committee dropped it.
From Truman by David McCulloughOne of the more interesting figures of Truman's early days as president was Henry Stimson -- a lifelong Republican in his second Democratic administration. He was a gentleman and public servant of the old school. Well connected in NY society, educated at Phillips Academy, Yale and Harvard Law, as a young lawyer he worked in the firm of Elihu Root. Teddy Roosevelt appointed him as U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York (a position later held by Thomas E. Dewey, Robert Morgenthau, Rudy Giuliani, and James Comey). He lost the 1910 New York gubernatorial race, but was named Secretary of War by William Howard Taft. During WW I, he rose to the rank of colonel as an artillery officer in France. He was Governor-General of the Philippines under Coolidge, Secretary of State in Hoover's administration, and Secretary of War (again) under FDR and Truman. He was the direct supervisor of General Groves during the Manhattan Project. Stimson was a godsend for historians. He dictated a diary entry at the end of each day for decades. The total came to 170,000 typed pages. They now reside in the library at Yale.
Rommel's view on partisan warfare:"[The SAS] tried again and again to incite the Arabs against us, fortunately with little success, for there is nothing so unpleasant as partisan warfare. It is perhaps vey important not to make reprisals on hostages at the first outbreak of partisan warfare, for these only create feelings of revenge and serve to strengthen the partisans. It is better to allow an incident to go unavenged than to hit back at the innocent. It only agitates the whole neighbourhood, and hostages easily become martyrs. The Italian commander shared my view, and so the occasional Arad raid was usually overlooked."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel's view on partisan warfare:"[The SAS] tried again and again to incite the Arabs against us, fortunately with little success, for there is nothing so unpleasant as partisan warfare. It is p..."
A wise approach. Too bad it wasn't followed in Poland, Russia or Yugoslavia.
Interesting observation by the author of my current book on Rommel:"It was Ultra that at the end of October enabled the Riyal Navy to destroy three tankers, the Luisiana, Prosperina, and Portofino, carrying between them over 5,000 tons of gasoline for the panzerarmee, which denied Rommel the ability to conduct a truly effective defense at El Alamein. It is impossible, then, to overstate the value of Ultra to the British in North Africa: when what Rommel accomplished with an under-supplied, under-equipped army is considered, what the Afrika Korps might have done if properly supported can scare be imagined."
Interesting figures:"The German workhorse of the panzerkorps was the Panzerkampfwagen IV, or Panzer IV, of which a total of 8,569 examples of all models were produced from 1936, the year it was introduced, to the end of the war. By comparison, the total production of United States Army's M4 Sherman, in all variants, was 49,234 - produced in just five years; the numbers for the Red Army's T-34 reached 84,070 in the same time span. Clearly, there is some merit to the argument of German apologists who assert that the Wehrmacht was never truly outfought, it was simply outproduced."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting figures:"The German workhorse of the panzerkorps was the Panzerkampfwagen IV, or Panzer IV, of which a total of 8,569 examples of all models were produced from 1936, the year it was i..."
That brings to mind the scene at the end of Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven. There's a shootout in the saloon. Eastwood, playing William Munny, shoots the proprietor for displaying his friend's dead body outside. The sheriff, Little Bill (played by Gene Hackman), says:
"You shot an unarmed man."
Eastwood replies "Well, he should have armed himself."
The Germans should have produced more.
Hiii All,This month of August I would like to read a book on Joseph Goebbels
Joseph Goebbels: Life and Death
I think Goebbels is one of the most underrated person among the lot of Nazi Leaders associated with Hitler.
Kanishka wrote: "Hiii All,This month of August I would like to read a book on Joseph Goebbels
Joseph Goebbels: Life and Death
I think Goebbels..."
Hi Kanishka, let us know who you go with dear old Goebbels
I knew men who knew Goebbels, not a single one liked him, same with Himmler.
Started chapter 6 of the Himmler bio. It is titled Chief of the German Police. The first 6 pages have covered Himmler setting up the Lebensborn e.V. This translates as The Fount of Life Society and was set up to care for "unmarried mothers of good blood made pregnant by SS officer" though the implication by some was that these homes were "little more than stud farms". The author discuss a payment scheme for the maintenance of the society homes in that SS officers, based on pay and how many children they had, had a certain percentage of their pay deducted.
The author then quotes Himmler extensively on his racial theories. These are frankly tedious. The racial theories of National Socialism are beyond the pale and to have had to sit through some of this stuff would have made me want to drink poison. Apparently the SS and Hitler Youth, among others lapped it up. Himmler made some less than positive comments about Christianity as well.
Th e great irony of Himmler and even Hitler was that despite their ridiculous racial thoughts, they ammited many non Germanic men within the ranks of the Waffen SS. Of the 945,000 men who passed throught the ranks from 1940-45, only 240,000 were actually German/Austrian. Himmler would personally arrive to inspect these troops, such as the Bosnian Muslims of the 13th Handschar Division, the three Ukrainian and Russian SS Divisions, and other Freiwillegen units.
From David McCullough's Truman.By the autumn of 1945, Truman saw that being a wartime president may have been easier than being one in peace. The economic disruption of the war's end was as unsettling as the Great Depression. The Pentagon rushed to cancel billions of dollars in contracts -- $15 billion (in 1945 dollars) in less than a month. Boeing laid off 21,000 workers and Ford 50,000. McCullough wrote:
Labor leaders demanded an end to wage controls, but a hold on prices. Business leaders demanded the opposite...Yet while most everyday commodities were in short supply, nearly everyone had money to spend -- billion of dollars put aside in war bonds and savings accounts... Production of goods and services in 1945 was more than twice what it had been in 1939. If the cost of living was up by more than 30 per cent, the income of the average worker had also doubled and unemployment was less than 2 per cent, an unbelievable figure. Farm income was five times what it was when Truman was running the farm in Grandview (the twenties). Americans had never known such prosperity...As it was, sudden peace had caught the country almost as ill-prepared as had sudden war.
By October of '45, Chicago alone had 100,000 homeless vets. The city sold off old streetcars for conversion into houses. Strikes broke out in many industries. In New York, 15,000 elevator operators went out (Who remembers elevator operators?), Elsewhere, 27,000 oil workers walked out and 60,000 lumbermen. Truman's problems were everywhere.
Manray9 wrote: "From David McCullough's Truman.By the autumn of 1945, Truman saw that being a wartime president may have been easier than being one in peace. The economic disruption of the war's ..."
That's an amazing number of homeless veterans MR9, things were pretty bad although it seems the same thing, in regards to homeless veterans, is happening again today, both in your country and mine.
The author of my book on Rommel has mentioned the sterling work done on behalf of the retreating Afrika Korp after El Alamein to Generalmajor Karl Bulowius:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_B%...
https://translate.google.com.au/trans...
http://www.geocities.ws/orion47.geo/W...
Rommel had this to say about the green American troops in Tunisia:"Although it was true that the American troops could not yet be compared with the veteran troops of the Eighth Army, yet they made up for their lack of experience by their far better and more plentiful equipment and their tactically more flexible command. In fact, their armament in antitank weapons and armored vehicles was so enormous that we could look forward with but small hope of success to the coming mobile battles. The tactical conduct of the enemy's defense had been first class. They had recovered vey quickly after the first shock and had soon succeeded in damming up our advance by grouping their reserves to defend the passes and other suitable points."
I liked this quote from my book on Rommel in regards to his first impressions of the Atlantic Wall:"Had the Allies invaded, the result would have been much like how the Marhathas recollected the capture of Ahmednagar in 1803: 'They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison, and returned to breakfast!' "
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel had this to say about the green American troops in Tunisia:"Although it was true that the American troops could not yet be compared with the veteran troops of the Eighth Army, yet they mad..."
Combat is a quick teacher.
Just finished Franklin and Winston: An Intimate Portrait of an Epic Friendship last night. What an outstanding and moving read about the friendship between these two powerful personalities! A must read for anyone interested in WWII history!!
Thanks for the update Doreen.
An account of Rommel and his work on the Atlantic Wall:"In March Generaloberts Hans von Salmuth who commanded the Fifteenth Army, which was responsible for the defense of the Pas de Calais, where Rommel expected the invasion to take place, was pleased to report to Rommel tht his men were each laying 10 land mines a day. Rommel's reply was a terse, 'Make it twenty a day'. Another time, when von Salmuth complained that the working pace Rommel demanded was leaving the Seventh Army's soldiers exhausted, Rommel responded by asking, 'Tell me, Herr General, which would your men rather be, tired or dead?' By the time the Allies actually landed in France, the Germans had laid almost six million mines - Rommel's final plan called for a total of twenty million."
I love this story of Rommel standing on the cliffs looking over the beaches of Pas de Calais:"Standing with him was his aide, Captain Helmuth Lang, who was by now a firm friend. Silently looking out over the Channel for some minutes, Rommel abruptly turned to Lang and said, 'The first 24 hours of the invasion will be decisive ... the fate of Germany depends on the outcome. For the Allies, as well as Germany, it will be the longest day'."
I wonder how long it took to clear all those mines after the war?
I also loved this exchange between the British prisoner, Lieutenant George Lane, captured during a commando raid on the French coast. Lane had been invited by Rommel to sit down for a cup of tea:"You must realize that you are in a very tricky situation. Everyone seems to think that you are a saboteur."
"Well, Sir, if you believed that I was a saboteur you would not have done me the honor of inviting me here."
"So you think that this is an invitation?" Rommel asked.
"I do, sir, and I must say I am highly honoured." Rommel smiled at the flattery, and a long conversation followed. At one point he asked Lane, "How's Montgomery doing?"
Lane replied, "Unfortunately I don't know him but he's preparing the invasion and he'll be here shortly, by the shortest route."
"Oh, so there's actually going to be an invasion?" Rommel said with an obviously feigned innocence.
"So the Times tells us, and it's usually pretty reliable about such things."
Lieutenant George Lane:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obitu...
According to the author of the book on Rommel I'm reading, Lane always thought that Rommel saved him from being shot by the Gestapo.
Betsy wrote: "I wonder how long it took to clear all those mines after the war?"Good question Betsy, a long time you would think eh!
And those are only the mines in Europe! What about in the desert or at sea? Hazardous duty pay for somebody surely?
Seeing Bou is reading about Goebbels I thought this might have been of interest. https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...
Hi 4ZZZ, thanks for the link! Very interesting.This resembles one of the conclusions of the biography. As war progressed, he became more and more separated from the lives of people around him, in the end only his friendship with Hitler remained.
Here are a few more titles that are worth a read..At Rommel's Side: The Lost Letters of Hans-Joachim Schraepler
Bomber Harris: His Life and Times: The Biography of Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, Wartime Chief of Bomber Command
Carve Her Name with Pride
Captivity, Slavery and Survival as a Far East POW: The Conjuror on the Kwai - This is the gentleman who inspired the magician and winner of Britain's got Talent.
Donitz and the Wolf Packs
Fight for the Sky: The Story of the Spitfire and Hurricane
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also loved this exchange between the British prisoner, Lieutenant George Lane, captured during a commando raid on the French coast. Lane had been invited by Rommel to sit down for a cup of tea:..."
I've been following the discussion, really interesting. Unfortunately I could not contribute since I was finishing a book on the Civil War. But I am interested on the book on Rommel. Could you include it? Thanks!
Hi Lizzy, the book on Rommel I have been reading is a 2015 publication by Casemate Publishers:
Field Marshal: The Life and Death of Erwin Rommel by Daniel Allen Butler
'Aussie Rick' wrote: According to the author of the book on Rommel I'm reading, Lane always thought that Rommel saved him from being shot by the Gestapo...."Lane could well be right. In this recent book
Operation Basalt: The British Raid on Sark and Hitler's Commando Order , the author states that Hitler had a standing order to kill captured commandos in retaliation for actions (real or imagined?) by British commandos in that raid.
Yes Hitler issued the commando order, it came from Alfred Jodl to all commands and especially in N. Africa.
Betsy wrote: "And those are only the mines in Europe! What about in the desert or at sea? Hazardous duty pay for somebody surely?"Donald Welbourn in An Engineer in Peace and War - A Technical and Social History - Volume I - 1916-1952 described rapidly boning up on electromagnetism as he joined an experimental section dealing with magnetic mines:
'My knowledge of electromagnetism was sketchy, but I discovered, travelling from one east coast base to another, sitting on upturned milk churns while waiting for trains delayed by bombing, that I could work through Moullin’s “Electromagnetism” on my own, without the help of a supervisor, and understand it. The spur of knowing that if I did not, my rate of vertical acceleration might be uncomfortably large, helped; but I had made the greatest discovery of my life, that anything can be learned if only you can read intelligently.'
I get the impression that he had an ego the size of a planet - luckily with an intellect to match!
And no, I don't think he got extra pay.
I think you're right about the ego and intellect, but to give him credit, he worked at learning his job--one most people wouldn't go near.
From Truman by David McCulloughTruman surrounded himself with some of the best men in Washington -- Marshall, Acheson, Kennan, Clifford, Forrestal, and Harriman. An interesting point made by McCullough:
The loyalty of those around Truman was total and would never falter. In the years to come not one member of the Truman White House would ever speak or write scathingly of him or belittle him in any fashion. There would be no vindictive "inside" books or articles written about this president by those who worked closest to him. They all thought the world of Harry Truman then and for the rest of their lives, and would welcome the chance to say so.
Times have changed.
Not a book, but I read an interesting article today.http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/sun...
There is reference to Patton's feelings about he Jews. To quote i part: "Faced with complaints by outside Jewish groups about conditions of “abject misery,” President Harry S. Truman sent a former immigration official, Earl Harrison, to Europe to inspect the camps. His findings were blistering. The survivors “have been ‘liberated’ more in a military sense than actually,” Harrison wrote Truman in the summer of 1945.
“As matters now stand,” he wrote, “we appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them. They are in concentration camps in large numbers under our military guard instead of S.S. troops.”
I ran across Harrison’s report a few years ago while researching a book on the flight of Nazis to the United States after the war. As I examined the path the Nazis took out of Europe, I struggled to understand how so many of them had made it to America so easily while so many Holocaust survivors were left behind.
One answer came in a copy of Gen. George S. Patton’s handwritten journal. In one entry from 1945, Patton, who oversaw the D.P. operations for the United States, seethed after reading Harrison’s findings, which he saw — quite accurately — as an attack on his own command.
“Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jews who are lower than animals,” Patton wrote. He complained of how the Jews in one camp, with “no sense of human relationships,” would defecate on the floors and live in filth like lazy “locusts,” and he told of taking his commander, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, to tour a makeshift synagogue set up to commemorate the holy day of Yom Kippur.
“We entered the synagogue, which was packed with the greatest stinking mass of humanity I have ever seen,” Patton wrote. “Of course, I have seen them since the beginning and marveled that beings alleged to be made in the form of God can look the way they do or act the way they act.”
Other evidence emerged revealing not only Patton’s disdain for the Jews in the camps, but an odd admiration for the Nazi prisoners of war under his watch.
Under Patton, Nazis prisoners were not only bunked at times with Jewish survivors, but were even allowed to hold positions of authority, despite orders from Eisenhower to “de-Nazify” the camps. “Listen,” Patton told one of his officers of the Nazis, “if you need these men, keep them and don’t worry about anything else.”"
Mike wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: According to the author of the book on Rommel I'm reading, Lane always thought that Rommel saved him from being shot by the Gestapo...."Lane could well be right. In this rece..."
According to the display in the Jersey War Tunnels (an underground hospital complex that's now a museum) the commandos captured five Germans "who were asleep". Pretty mundane considering the implications of the order that followed.
Finally starting on my book for the theme read this month
Here is the author talking about the book - It peeked my interest when I saw it.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?400028-...
Jonny wrote: "Just finished
Quartered Safe Out HereReview posted, heartily recommended to all those who haven't read it. And those who have, and have..."
It has been a while and I am coming in late this month, but your review and a old review of Manray9 that happens to be in the first page have sold me on this read. Count me in!
At the airport. Will review later. Back in lovely Hawaii. Now for the review. Too often we Americans read about Patton, Bradley (on my list), Eisenhower, or MacArthur. We should pay attention to the personalities of our Allies. Mountbatten is one of the most intriguing WWII and after personalities. Born as a royal, he pursued a military career that makes me envious. He slowly worked his way up the chain in the Royal Navy. WWII found him the perfect person to work for Combined Operations (aka our today's Joint Military). He led the group that would put commandoes and later an invasion force onto Europe's beaches. He was instrumental in setting up the plans and studies that eventually led to OVERLORD and allied landings in Normandy. He shifted over to Asiatic and tackled the backwater campaign that was India, Burma, and China. His leadership and skill led to the first Allied land campaign victory over the Japanese army. Yes a Navy Admiral led the theater of a land campaign. After the peace, Lord Mountbatten became Viceroy of British India. His main goal was to lead British India and Burma to its freedom and he did just that. I find it amazing that a military man was able to govern and turn over leadership of a former colony and create the beginning of the Commonwealth. Later he returned to the Royal Navy to lead a fleet and ultimately become the First Sea Lord (our Chief of Naval Operations). Not willing to stand still, his vision lead to the creation of the UK's Chairmen of Defense Staff with him fulfilling the role of the Chairmen. Only then did Mountbatten retire to live as a mentor to the Royal family. An IRA bomb was what finally finished Lord Mountbatten. You can watch the sad but fitting funeral here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6AU.... Lord Mountbatten's vision and leadership are a role model for any who aspire to military leadership. I encourage all to pick up a book about WWII leadership and listen to the whispers in the pages about the great leaders...MacArthur, Churchill, Roosevelt, Patton, Eisenhower...and Lord Mountbatten. 
by:
Philip Ziegler
Dane wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Just finished Quartered Safe Out HereReview posted, heartily recommended to all those who haven't read it. And those who ..."
Pleased to see my powers bring applied for good for once! Enjoy.
Jack wrote: "At the airport. Will review later. Back in lovely Hawaii. Now for the review. Too often we Americans read about Patton, Bradley (on my list), Eisenhower, or MacArthur. We should pay attention to th..."Sounds like an excellent book Jake. Thanks for posting your thoughts comments on the book, I am sure it will interest a few members in the group.
From David McCullough's Truman.Despite later commentaries to the contrary, Truman's meeting on Wake Island with MacArthur went rather well. They came to a quick understanding on Korea. MacArthur's refusal to remain for lunch with Truman was noted by others, and considered rude and insulting, but Truman said nothing of it. Truman hadn't met MacArthur previously, and held a poor opinion of him. In 1945, Truman had described MacArthur in his journal as "Mr. Prima Donna, Brass Hat, " and a "play actor and bunco man." Truman had brought in John Foster Dulles, a prominent Republican, as a special adviser. Dulles held a series of meetings in Tokyo with MacArthur. Upon his return to DC, Dulles advised Truman to recall MacArthur and retire him. Truman declined to do so.
In addition to the books I mentioned earlier (post #16 on this thread), I have begun reading Robert's book about Oscar Koch,
"Patton's Oracle: Gen. Oscar Koch, as I Knew Him" (which I've owned for a few years but finally got around to beginning). I'm only a few pages in, but I love it already!
Oh, and somebody's post on the Intel Operations & Units thread made me interested in Agent Zigzag by Ben Macintyre, so I have that, as well, but I haven't begun.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
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Islam and Nazi Germany’s War (other topics)
Yamashita's Ghost: War Crimes, MacArthur's Justice, and Command Accountability (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Tom Bower (other topics)Tom Bower (other topics)
David Motadel (other topics)
Richard Overy (other topics)
Thorolf Hillblad (other topics)
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What was Truman's reaction?"
He was overwhelmed and took the news very seriously. He had heard inklings before, but when Sec of War Stimson and General Groves gave him the full briefing, he immediately ordered an advisory committee to be formed of key officials, generals, and scientists to keep him constantly informed. Opinions were sharply split about how to proceed with the Bomb. Truman made all the calls after hearing everyone out. He was the man in charge.