2016 - August - Theme Read on any Personality of WW2

[Betsy]

I think that's a terrific comment about "praying loudly". I suspect Truman's grandfather would be dismayed by much of the tele-evangelism of today.

[Howard]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've heard this story before but its worth quoting again, the incident when Rommel took command of the III Battalion of the 17th Infantry Regiment and the officers tried to get one over him:

"Not ..."
I remember in a biography of Rommel that as a young man he was scrawny and worked hard to build his physical strength.

[Howard]

Manray9 wrote: "For this month's theme read I've embarked on David McCullough's Truman. It will take about 260 pages to reach WW II. But some good background is provided just within the first 55 pag..."
I have wondered why the gang in Josie Wales were called red legs. Traditionally it is a reference to artillerymen as they had a red stripe on their trousers (cavalry had yellow, etc.) Also, Truman was a Captain in the artillery in WWI, so he was a redleg too.

[Manray9]

Howard wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "For this month's theme read I've embarked on David McCullough's Truman. It will take about 260 pages to reach WW II. But some good background is provided just within ..."

Howard: Kansas anti-slavery, pro-Union jayhawkers (guerrillas) were also called Redlegs because they often wore red leggings. After Truman enlisted in the Missouri Light Artillery of the National Guard in 1905, he did his first annual encampment at Cape Girardeau. He was promoted to corporal and given a fine dark blue dress uniform with the red stripes of an artilleryman. He wore it home to impress his grandmother. All she thought of was Yankee soldiers and she forbade him to wear it in her presence again.

[Howard]

Great story. Thanks Manray. Truman's grandmother reminds me of some of my grandparent sayings.When I was taking political science classes at UT, Dr Stephens, who taught Constitutional Law, mentioned "Spoons" Butler, the Union General who was military governor in New Orleans during Reconstruction after the Civil War, so named because he stole silverware, and earned scorn for declaring any woman out after dark as a prostitute. I told the professor my grandparents said the only time it was permissible to spit was between the words "Spoons" and "Butler"

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I liked this quote from Winston Churchill taken from my book on Rommel:

"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked this quote from Winston Churchill taken from my book on Rommel:

"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demand..."

Winston had a way with words.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Another quote from my book on Rommel:

"Almost alone on Hitler's staff Rommel knew what it was like to go through combat multiple times and survive - he and Hitler could claim equally with Winston Churchill that there was something exhilarating in being shot at by an enemy who missed."

[zed]

Just finished Chapter 3 of the Himmler bio titled "Revolutionary"

A chapter on his rise through the ranks of the Nazi Party to Reichs Fuhrer-SS with the usual personal information thrown in. The part I have liked is that the author has quoted from Himmler dairy to include some his reading list. A fair bit of what we would nowadays call "confirmation bias" in this though the eventfully banned Siddhartha by Hesse was an inclusion.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I liked this story about Rommel, just prior to him taking command of the 7th Panzer Division in 1940, of how he developed his style of leadership:

" ... at a formal dinner in Berlin on February 17, while waiting in the reception line for Hitler to arrive, Rommel found himself standing next to Generalleutnant Rudolf Schmidt, who had been his commanding officer in the Reichswehr's 13th Infantry Regiment, and led the 1st Panzer Division in Poland. Leaning close to Schmidt, Rommel asked, 'General, what is the best way to command a panzer division?'

'You'll find that there are two possible decisions open to you,' Schmidt replied crisply. 'Take the bolder one - it's always best'."

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked this story about Rommel, just prior to him taking command of the 7th Panzer Division in 1940, of how he developed his style of leadership:

" ... at a formal dinner in Berlin on February 17..."

"Il nous faut de l'audace, et encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is an interesting account of some of the fighting in France during 1940:

"At Rouen, Rommel and his men faced French colonial troops for the first time, the 53e regiment d'infanterie colonial mixte senegalais (53rd Infantry Regiment Mixed Colonial Senegal, 53e RICMS), who ironically fought harder for France than did most Frenchmen. Resisting tenaciously, the Sengalese had to be dug out house by house, sometimes burned out with flamethrowers."

Which reminds me that I have this book to read of colonial soldiers who fought for France during WWII:

Soldiers Of Misfortune: Ivoirien Tirailleurs of World War II by Nancy Ellen Lawler

[zed]

Onto the 3rd chapter of the Himmler bio. Called Reichsfuhrer SS. Only a couple of pages in but the following caught my attention.

"Heinrich, I shudder at you" said Otto Strasser after Himmler had admitted that he would kill his mother if Hitler ordered it. Otto Strasser used this as, and to quote Padfield "......a catchphrase with which he used to greet Himmler. 'He always took it with a laugh, indeed he was flattered'"

[Manray9]

In Russia recently, Vera Serova -- daughter of the despicable Ivan Aleksandrovich Serov, who led the KGB from 1954-'58 and the GRU from '58-'63 -- released newly-discovered memoirs by her father entitled Notes From a Suitcase: Secret Diaries of the First K.G.B. Chairman, Found Over 25 Years After His Death. I can find no listing of its availability in the West as yet. The memoirs shed new light on the disappearance of Raoul Wallenberg. Serov was a loathsome individual -- hip deep in culpability for the Katyn Massacre and the deportation of the Crimean Tatars. Here's a link to the NY Times article on Serova's find:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/wor...

[Betsy]

An interesting article, particularly that last quote by Khruschev, another 'lily-pure' individual.

[Jonny]

Just made a start on
Quartered Safe Out Here
Looking forward to the re-read immensely.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I've read this before in numerous books but figured I'd still quote it in case some in the group haven't come across it before, I still find it funny:

"The diet of the Germans and Italians in Libya was bland and unimaginative, with little variety. There was an abundance of Italian sausage, issued in tins stamped 'AM' (for 'Administrazione Militare'), which the Germans immediately christened 'Alte Mann' ('Old Man'), but the Italians dubbed 'Arabo Morte' ('Dead Arab')."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Another good quote from my book on Rommel:

"Rommel's holy trinity of warfare was 'Sturm, Schwung, Wucht' - 'attack, momentum, force', an intriguing variation on Bonaparte's dictum 'Mass times velocity equals impact'. All of his experience in Romania and Italy in the First World War, and in France in the Second, had driven home the lesson that once an enemy began to retreat, he would tend to keep retreating, particularly if a withdrawal route was to hand. Only with his back to the wall, with nowhere else to go, would an enemy turn and fight to the death."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I liked this quote from Morshead, the Australian commander at Tobruk:

" ... They were the physical demonstration of what Morshead meant when he said, after seeing an article in a British newspaper headed 'Tobruk can take it!', that 'We're not here to take it, we're here to give it'."

In fact in the endnotes of the book is this reference:

"So well executed would be Morshead's defense of Tobruk that it is still presented in military academies and war colleges, including the US Army Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, as an example of how a largely infantry force can successfully conduct an in-depth defense against superior armored forces."

[zed]

3rd chapter of the Himmler bio "Reichsfuhrer SS" is interesting enough but tends to cover the rise of the Nazi's to power as apposed to having much about Himmler's part in it. I think the implication is that while the political situation was taking shape Himmler sat back preparing the SS for power. The final sentence of the chapter is the chilling press announcement of the first concentration camp at Dachau.

[Manray9]

From David McCullough's Truman.

Harry Truman was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1934. His prior political experience consisted of two terms as county judge for Jackson County, Missouri. This wasn't a judicial position, but one of county administrator or county executive. He did a good job – a fact even acknowledged by the Republican newspapers. Truman was sent to Washington by Tom Pendergast's Kansas City Democratic machine. Despite this tie, Truman was quickly seen to be honest and conscientious. He hit Washington at the time of the “Second Hundred Days,” the high tide of the New Deal. Truman became a staunch New Dealer, voting in favor of the Wagner Act, the WPA, and Social Security. Most important to Truman, however, was rural electrification. He supported the Rural Electrification Act of 1936, which provided federal financial support for the expansion of electric power throughout the nation. Truman understood the need. McCullough wrote:

...He...voted for...rural electrification, which may have changed the way people lived more than any other single measure of the Roosevelt years. In his own state in 1935, nine out of ten farms had no electricity.

Many of the electrical co-ops formed under the REA still exist today. There are 905 of these non-profit entities (27 in my state of South Carolina) providing electrical power to 18.5 million businesses, homes, schools, churches, farms, irrigation systems and other establishments in 2,500 of 3,141 counties in the U.S. Twelve per cent of electrical power in the U.S. is provided by co-ops.

[Howard]

The late Peter Drucker, the guru of gurus in the business consulting field, said he rated Truman as the best president because he was honest and everybody loved him.

[Manray9]

Howard wrote: "The late Peter Drucker, the guru of gurus in the business consulting field, said he rated Truman as the best president because he was honest and everybody loved him."

Truman's reputation has improved with history. According to Gallup, he had the lowest average approval ratings of any president since polling began (45.40%). In February of '52, his approval rating was 22%, second lowest to G. W. Bush's 19% in late 2008.

[Doreen]

In the book Franklin and Winston: An Intimate Portrait of an Epic Friendship you can see the blossoming of their friendship as well as the points they disagreed on. There is also mention of the friendship between Eleanor Roosevelt and Clementine Churchill.

[KOMET]

Sometime ago, I read the book "War As I Knew It", which is based on the diaries General George S. Patton, Jr. kept during the War. It provides interesting insights on the experiences Patton had from the moment he landed with a U.S. task force in North Africa in November 1942 to the end of the War in May 1945, when he was in command of the Third Army.

As the son of an Army veteran who served in the Third Army in 1944 and 1945, I very much enjoyed reading General Patton's perspectives on the War and combat.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Again figures like this still stagger me, regardless how many times I read them:

"In all, just the two divisions of the Afrika Korps alone required over 700 tons of supplies per day in order to be able to conduct basic operations - when they were on the attack, that figure doubled."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I found this account in my book on Rommel to be quite interesting:

"During the whole of the North African campaign a copy of Generals and Generalship, a transcription of a lecture series Wavell had presented at Trinity College published before the war began in 1939, accompanied Rommel everywhere, a distinction not accorded to any work written by a German general. In Rommel's opinion, Wavell, almost alone among the top echelon of British generals, fundamentally understood mechanized warfare and recognized the capabilities as well as the limitations of armored units."

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Again figures like this still stagger me, regardless how many times I read them:

"In all, just the two divisions of the Afrika Korps alone required over 700 tons of supplies per day in order to be..."

Mind-boggling. Think about the numbers today.

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this account in my book on Rommel to be quite interesting:

"During the whole of the North African campaign a copy of Generals and Generalship, a transcription of a lecture series Wavell ha..."

Perhaps Rommel read Wavell to better know how to beat him?

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is another great account, in regards to the British use of the Matilda tank and the Germans use of the dreaded 88:

"The story goes (it is almost certainly apocryphal, but worth telling nonetheless) that a British officer taken prisoner during the course of Battleaxe complained to his captors that it was 'unsporting' for the Germans to use AA guns against tanks. A German replied, 'Ja! And we think it is unsporting of you to use tanks that only our 88s can stop!' "

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Very true MR9, know your enemy to beat him, but I also think there might have been a touch of genuine respect.

[Howard]

Rommel also was quick to use what he had available. Many reports of Allied tanks being brewed up by 88s were actually being hit by Italian 90 mm AA guns used in the same fashion. The 90mm AA gun and their heavy mortar were two Italian weapons of high quality and effectiveness in North Africa.

[zed]

Into chapter 5 Night of the Long knives. I am intrigued as to the comment I read in another thread that Himmler's father described his son as a "born criminal". This comment has yet to be used by Padfield, if indeed it will into the future. But on page 141 the author says that Himmler was "reconciled" with his family and that his parents were "intensely proud" of his achievements at this point in time, 1934.

I would be interested into the veracity of the "born criminal" remark attributed to his father. There are a couple of web sites with this comment but none footnote the remark. Interesting.

[Derek]

Howard wrote: "Rommel also was quick to use what he had available. Many reports of Allied tanks being brewed up by 88s were actually being hit by Italian 90 mm AA guns used in the same fashion. The 90mm AA gun an..."

And we used 3.7s. They were designed for a tertiary A/T role (secondary was field artillery), fitted with anti-tank sights for active service and issued with A/P ammunition. When that ran out they just used unfuzed HE rounds with the transport blocks still in place. The mounts weren't too happy with sustained low-angle firing though.

[Manray9]

From David McCullough's Truman.

Harry Truman was an early supporter of FDR's calls for military readiness prior to Pearl Harbor. After his service in WW I, he remained in the reserves -- rising to colonel by 1940. He realized the shortage of qualified officers, so early in 1941 he sought out George C. Marshall in his office at the old Munitions Building. The 56 year old Truman made a pitch to be recalled to active duty. According to McCullough:

Pulling his reading glasses down on his nose, Marshall told him he was too old and could better serve his country in the Senate.

I have difficulty imagining a U.S. senator today asking to be recalled to active duty.

Marshall had just testified before Congress on the serious shortcomings of the U.S. defense establishment. Questioned whether he was not asking for more than necessary in the build up, Marshall replied:

My relief of mind would be tremendous if we just had too much of something besides patriotism and spirit.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "From David McCullough's Truman.

Harry Truman was an early supporter of FDR's calls for military readiness prior to Pearl Harbor. After his service in WW I, he remained in the reser..."

Truman was a great man but I have no problem seeing Sen Coats, Cotton, Ernst, Graham, Inhofe, McCain or Reed all asking to be called back to serve.

[Jonny]

Very much enjoying my time with Nine Section, having been with this collection of personalities through the battles of Meiktila and Pyawbwe, replete with grousing, arguments, mid-combat falls down wells and the minutiae of an infantry sections life. Fraser's views on Field Marshal Slim;
"...the biggest boost to morale was the burly man who came to talk to the assembled battalion by the lake shore – I’m not sure when, but it was unforgettable. Slim was like that: the only man I’ve ever seen who had a force that came out of him, a strength of personality that I have puzzled over since, for there was no apparent reason for it, unless it was the time and the place and my own state of mind. Yet others felt it too, and they were not impressionable men. His appearance was plain enough: large, heavily built, grim-faced with that hard mouth and bulldog chin; the rakish Gurkha hat was at odds with the slung carbine and untidy trouser bottoms; he might have been a yard foreman who had become managing director, or a prosperous farmer who’d boxed in his youth. Nor was he an orator. There have been four brilliant speakers in my time: Churchill, Hitler, Martin Luther King, and Scargill; Slim was not in their street. His delivery was blunt, matter-of-fact, without gestures or mannerisms, only a lack of them."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I liked this story from my book on Rommel about some of his Italian soldiers in the desert:

"As a rule, Rommel liked his Italian soldiers, who usually fought hard, often bravely, and sometimes ingeniously for him. Once, in an effort to disguise how few of his precious Flak 88s he had - fewer than a dozen at the time - he ordered some of his Italian troops to build dummies and emplace them. A few days later, he was furious to see these irreplaceable guns sitting in the open, being shelled by British artillery. The tables turned on him - they were the dummy guns his Italians had cobbled together, and so convincing were they that the British mistook them for real 88s. Delighted, Rommel told the Italians to make more, and to be sure to bring them along as they advanced - their decoy value was tremendous."

[zed]

Finished chapter 5 Night of the Long knives and like the previous there seems a lot on the events as apposed to Himmler himself.
Even though I have read a lot about this subject before and to us WW2 buffs it is all obviously interesting but I would prefer the focus to be on the subject itself, Himmler.

[Dimitri]

"'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked this story about Rommel, just prior to him taking command of the 7th Panzer Division in 1940, of how he developed his style of leadership:

"Il nous faut de l'audace, et encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace."

by Frederick the Great and well-known from the Patton movie, right ? Maybe Rommel was thinking of him.

[Manray9]

Dimitri wrote: ""'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked this story about Rommel, just prior to him taking command of the 7th Panzer Division in 1940, of how he developed his style of leadership:

"Il nous faut de l'audace,..."

I thought Danton?

[Jonny]

Just finished
Quartered Safe Out Here
Review posted, heartily recommended to all those who haven't read it. And those who have, and have the urge to dust it off, for that matter.

[Manray9]

From David McCullough's Truman .

I have read of this episode in other books, but McCullough's presentation was particularly impactful --

On 12 April 1945, Harry was having drinks with some congressmen and senators in Sam Rayburn's private lounge in the Capitol, known as "the Board of Education." Steve Early, FDR's staffer, telephoned him to come to the White House immediately. Upon stepping off the elevator on the second floor of the White House, as McCullough wrote:

In the private quarters, across the center hall, in her sitting room, Mrs. Roosevelt was waiting. With her were Steve Early, and her daughter and son-in-law, Anna and John Boettiger. Mrs. Roosevelt stepped forward and gently put her arm on Truman's shoulder.
"Harry, the President is dead."
Truman was unable to speak.
"Is there anything I can do for you?" he said at last.
"Is there anything we can do for you," she said. "For you are the one in trouble now."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great account MR9, thanks for posting the story.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I like how Rommel was fair in his assessment of his Italian allies, well at least the soldiers:

" ... that the defeats which the Italian formations suffered at El Alamein in early July were not the fault of the Italian soldier. The Italian was willing, unselfish and a good comrade, and, considering the conditions under which he served, had always given far better than the average. There is no doubt that the achievement of every Italian unit, especially of the motorized forces, far surpassed anything that the Italian Army had done for a hundred years. Many Italian generals and officers won our admiration both as men and soldiers."

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I like how Rommel was fair in his assessment of his Italian allies, well at least the soldiers:

" ... that the defeats which the Italian formations suffered at El Alamein in early July were not th..."

Credit to the Italians as due.

[Mikey B.]

Manray9 wrote: ""For you are the one in trouble now.".."

Eleanor was indeed right!! Harry was now on the hot seat. He didn't even know about the A-bomb!

[Manray9]

Mikey B. wrote: "Manray9 wrote: ""For you are the one in trouble now.".."

Eleanor was indeed right!! Harry was now on the hot seat. He didn't even know about the A-bomb!"

According to McCullough, Truman wasn't briefed about the Manhattan Project until he had been president for 12 days.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "According to McCullough, Truman wasn't briefed about the Manhattan Project until he had been president for 12 days.,..."

What was Truman's reaction?

[Manray9]

From David McCullough's Truman.

The Roosevelt's were not great entertainers or lovers of showiness. The $50,000 Congress had allocated to repair the White House went untouched for years. This was considered the First Lady's responsibility, but her focus was on other concerns. McCullough wrote that when the Truman's arrived:

Carpets were threadbare. Walls looked as if they hadn't been cleaned in years and were covered with lighter patches where pictures had hung. The scant remaining furniture was in sad disrepair. Some of the draperies has actually rotted. It looked like a ghost house...Mrs. Roosevelt had told Bess she could expect to see rats.

Mrs. Truman immediately began overseeing the repainting, re-papering, and re-carpeting of many spaces. She began purchasing reproduction furniture to fill the rooms with period-looking pieces. She took her role as a homemaker much more seriously than Eleanor. She, Margaret, and Harry dined together almost every evening. The White House butler said he couldn't recall Eleanor and Franklin ever dining together alone.