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Colin
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Sep 08, 2016 05:14PM
In answering your questions, Wolff was not going to talk about his relationships, and I did not press the issue. Wolff said that Himmler's unrealistic views on race and the war unsettled the majority of the Waffen SS officers who received their orders. Many of these men were PhDs and MDs, or lawyers, yet still professional soldiers. They understood the backlash and self -destructive policies would come back to haunt them. Wolff said that Himmler was the ultimate Hitler loyalist and bureaucrat, yet not adept at understanding military necessity. This opinion was shared by many I interviewed. Regarding Canaris, Himmler and he hated each other, I see not reason why Himmler would protect Canaris, after he learned that Canaris said that "Himmler looks like a bookworm yet lacking the intellect to open one."
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If anyone is interested I typed up my thoughts on my read, Clementine: The Life of Mrs. Winston Churchillhttps://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Another good review Happy, thanks for sharing with the group.
Hi Colin. I might get your opinion of this written by Padfield. ---------
Discussing this turn of events with his colleagues, Sonderegger learned that this was by no means the first time Himmler had prevented action against the Admiral.(Canaris) In his post war testimony Sonderegger listed three previous cases, all that involving von Dohnanyi or the Abwehr and concerned conspiracies to assassinate Hitler, where Himmler had stopped the investigation. Schellenberg conveyed the same impression in his Memoirs: he would present reports about the Admirals betrayals, he wrote, but Himmler, nervously tapping his thumbnail against his teeth, would merely say 'Leave the dossier with me. I will bring it to Hitler's attention when the right opportunity arises'. It never did. This happened so often that Schellenberg became convinced that Canaris must have some incriminating information on Himmler; 'otherwise there is no possible explanation of Himmler's reaction to the material which I placed before him". Schellenberg was in the best position to know, but his memoirs are so riddled with false statements that it is impossible to judge the values of his claim, especially as he was intriguing to take over and merge the entire Abwehr in his own SD.
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Padfield writes after that he thinks that Canaris had been Himmlers man inside the Abwehr from the beginning and truste dhim to keep an eye on Oster among others and the implication was that Himmler at this point in time had decided the war was lost and Canaris was able to negotiate with the allies.
Canaris had been in contact with the Allies through the Swiss since 1942, leaking information about mass murder (being a staunch anti Nazi, and also details about Heydrich's schedule in Prague), and this served Himmler as well, wanting to save his own neck. Himmler knew Canaris was held in high regard by Dulles, MI6 and others, hence his hoping to ride the fair wind into a comfortable surrender, and he was not alone. Goering also had his own ideas about escaping the Soviets and any severe punishment knowing the war was lost. Walter Schellenberg was a fanatical Nazi and mass murderer, never trust his writing.
I started on a book on Hirohito but came across this one in the library and so I started reading it instead.
Yamashita's Ghost: War Crimes, MacArthur's Justice, and Command AccountabilityThis is not exactly a book on Yamashita, but on his trial in the Philippines after the war and its implications. Some members in this group have marked it as 'To Read'; my suggestion is to read it. The author gave a very good treatment on the tribunal and ends off in the last few chapters on its legacy. I can see my reading theme for next year already - the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal.
I found it to be a pretty interesting book Chin Joo and it made me think a lot about command responsibility in regards to war crimes. I think its a book well worth reading.
And that is Chapter 12 "The Herrenmensch" finished. There are long tracts on the abhorrent treatment of live guinea pigs for experiments for survival in ice cold water. I had read about this years back and it is still to me shocking at man's inhumanity to man when one rereads this stuff. Later in the chapter there is some reading on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. The author quotes Stroop extensively on this event. Stroop seemingly hung his hat on this event, when in his prison cell after the war he was seemingly very overt in his comments to those he came into contact with. The author seems to take his testimony more seriously than most other testimonies. Again I will quote the author. --------
Stroop's recollections as a condemned man provide insights into the heady mood and feelings gripping the Third Reich even as late as the summer of 1943 which are missing from the apologias of those who survived to write memoirs and give interviews designed to conceal their own identifications with this spirit and lay the odium on Himmler and other 'criminal' party figures. Stroop is a more reliable guide. Without his recollected pride and delight the sickening barbarities which fill so many hundreds of volumes of testimony and evidence at war crimes trials, indeed the figure of Himmler himself, would be explicable.
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The chapter ends with a few pages on the corruption that was rife in the concentration camp system.
I will repeat what I have said previously. This is an interesting book but it has long tracts that hardly mention the subject at hand and that is Himmler himself.
Chapter 13 "Chief of Intelligence". The author quotes Himmler extensively from speeches he made in 1943 concerning racial issues and also his mention of the Final Solution. To call them tedious drivel would be an understatement. He made mention of Vlassov. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_... Not sure of the correct spelling as the author uses a double ss. He used him in terms of recruiting Slavs to fight the USSR as a mistake as this would "undermine" the Nordic man as leaders. The author covers Himmler becoming Chief of Intelligence in the entire Reich and leading all facets of intelligence.
I had a friend who fought for Andrei Vlassov in the ROA as a pilot. Himmler did not mind them fighting against Stalin, he just did not want them integrated within the German military proper.
Chapter 14 "The Plot against Hitler". Lots a detail with little on Himmler himself. Any of us that have read extensively on the 3rd Reich would have, I presume, be aware of the details of the plot. Though interesting as a subject in itself again for me personally this is all a bit long winded and lacks focus on the subject, Himmler himself. It has dawned on me that the chapters themselves become more focused on the Reichsführer as they get a few pages towards the end. In this case after the plot Himmler has become the 2nd most powerful individual in Germany and it still making long and tedious speeches concerning racial policy.
One of the more interesting things reported by his doctor, Kersten, is finding him with severe stomach pains and a copy of the Koran. Himmler complains that he can no longer "bear this pain". This is footnoted to 5/9/44.
Himmler studied the Koran because he was active recruiting Bosnian Muslims into the Waffen SS (13th SS Handschar Division) to fight in the Yugoslav partisan war. He wanted to see their differences from Judaism. He also suffered from ulcers.
That's a subject that has drawn my interest lately and this new book looks like a good read on the subject:
Islam and Nazi Germany's War by David Motadel
This book actually actually had couple of sentences in a previous chapter as to the recruitment of Bosnian Muslims. Colin's comment above has reinforced my criticism of this book lacking focus as the authors comment was in relation to Himmler discussing with his staff etc. the allies breaking up under the strain of their supposed "unnatural " alliance and the eastern borders of the Reich being pushed back to the Urals. I will quote the final couple of sentences to put this in context. -------------
Consequently it is possible, even probable that when he spoke of pushing out the eastern borders to the Urals, and of the great German future which he saw beyond the hard present, he believed it. Equally, much of the time, and in the small wee hours of the night he must have known it was all a chimera. In early September, as the Red army occupied the Rumanian oil fields and invaded Bulgaria, and Finland dropped out of the war against Russia, he took to his bed with stomach cramps, that sure indicator of his psychic health. Kersten found him in agony with the Koran lying by his bedside. 'I can't bear the pain any longer,' Himmler told him.
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The chapter ends. Notice the comma at the end of Himmlers quote. Is there more to be added to take the comment into context? I have to admit not noticing this until I reread after reading Colin's comment above and rereading that sentence to take into context as to our conversation. I referred to the index and it has under Himmler a subheading attitudes: religious: and includes this page. Hardly. It now looks like a throwaway line.
Chapter 15 finished and called "Most Powerful Man in the Reich" and covers the aftermath of the July Plot, the treatment of Hungarian Jews, Hitler's appointment as commander-in-chief of Army Group Upper Rhine and a few paragraphs late about what Himmler gave everyone for Xmas that year.
Chapter 16 "Fall from Grace". Hitler turns on Himmler for his inability to be what he never was, a military strategist. The author is fairly scathing of the army officers who after the war were themselves scathing of Himmler. He implies that it is all very well to be a critic of Himmlers ability but in his opinion that though ".........saddling him with the odium of crime, and in large measure of responsibility for disaster, they presented their own service as honourable, disguised their own complicity and provided a scapegoat for the most terrible and moral and material defeat suffered by a nation." The chapter covers the final attempts at negotiation's with the west. Wollf has come back into the fore. Padfield is scathing himself of Wolff. He writes that his biographer Jochan Lang never believed his claim of not knowing of the systematic murder of Jews etc. Lang is quoted as saying that this was a pattern of his generation anyway. Padfield implies that Wolff was treated well by the allies because he had cooperated with Alan Dulles over the capitulation of German forces in Italy and had links to industry. I really would like to eventually read that Wollf Bio, if anything has come out of this difficult book it is this intriguing character.
I know I have mentioned a couple of faults but have I mentioned the authors constant psychological profiling? It gets a bit much. And the speculation is also tedious.
Anyway one chapter to go.
And the final chapter "The End" just finished. Events from April 20th through to Himmlers suicide by cyanide while in British captivity. To give an idea as to the writing style that Padfield employed at times after he had written of Himmler taking cyanide he writes "Did images of Bavaria flood the timeless moment as the poison stunned his nerve centre...Das Braunek dort so freundlich schaut, zum Geirgerstein als seine Brut...'What a miserable creature is man... The heart is turbulent until it rests in the ground"...
Pretentious?
I am glad that to have ended this epic and will post a review later. Thanks to all for reading.
I think that Colin and I may have differing views as to the post-war thoughts of those that knew Himmler but the thoughts and input from a published historian is very much appreciated and well received on my part as it certainly focused my reading on the subject and has had me delving into areas I had not thought to look at. A big big thanks Colin.
No problem. I interviewed Wolff and over 20 SS officers, including almost a dozen generals. All but two thought well of Himmler, and I have corroboration that during the war most of the Waffen SS front line commanders who had openly debated and disagreed with Himmler's policies, and several joined the Stauffenberg plot and fortunately went unnoticed, avoiding execution. Himmler was well aware of the open dissent, but in a chat with Wolff he stated "What would the Army do, even the SS if I purged these men?" Hence the great need for continued secrecy of the Final Solution program regarding the establishment of mission oriented death camps. Not even Himmler trusted his own generals, and he had a list. I have that list from Wolff, hence my ability to contact and interview several others. Wolff had to deny complicity to avoid being charged by the war Crimes Tribunal and justify Dulles' support of him. However, the West German government was not so lenient.
I've enjoyed your posts on Himmler and will be interested to hear your final thoughts on the book overall. Also thanks for taking the time to post detailed commentary on your progress and your views as I am sure they have interested other members in the subject and/or book.
4ZZZ,I also enjoyed your posts - I'm looking forward to your review!
Colin your comment above about what Himmler knew vis a vis the Stauffenberg plot marries up to what Padfield wrote. Wolff! What a fascinating character. Just a name in my prior readings but now looming large in my future reading. The last thing I need is to buy another book but his bio looms large.
Great review 4ZZZ, thanks for sharing your thoughts with the group.
Great review, well done for an epic read. I don't normally do biographies (although I did enjoy Kershaw's two volume Hitler biography). Think this will have to go on the"to buy" list. And interestingly, this came up this morning, quoted from SS Standartenfuhrer Lippert, of SS NCO School Arnheim in A Street in Arnhem: The Agony of Occupation and Liberation:
"They [his men] were not necessarily fanatic national socialists because Himmler was not loved at all by the Waffen SS."
Thanks very much.
That statement was very true, I have interviewed almost 50 Waffen SS vets, 7 generals and many colonels, only 2 thought well of Himmler.
I have the 2 Kershaw bios sitting on the shelf to be read Jonny. One day I will get to them. I have read a couple of Hitler bios years back, Toland's but can hardly recall it and one other whose author I have forgotten. I am a little more circumspect as to what veterans say about their past so with that Bios in general. Padfields book, for example, covered a conversation between Wolff and Kaltenbrunner(IIRC) and both had a differing views as to what the conversation was about as was duly noted by the author. I read Sajer's book a while back and read the criticism of that. But as he said in later interviews that is how I remembered it all. Hillenbrands book on Zamperini was IMO ridiculous when discussing the raft and the sharks.
In fact to give you an idea on a more personal level I have an uncle who was stationed in Cyprus during the late 60's. As my wife and I had spent a week in Cyprus on vacation he was keen to discuss the place with me. When I mentioned the Turkish Invasion museum we made visit to in Nicosia he claimed to have been stationed in Cyprus at the time of that invasion. "In 74?" I asked. "It happened in the 60's" he said and was adamant. That conversation took place in 2000 when my uncle had only just turned 60 and was very sharp of mind but somehow he had got his placements mixed up.
Please understand that this is not meant to be critical of these individuals memories. Who am I to be critical anyway. I can hardly recall last week lol.
Thank you 4ZZZ, I have followed your commentaries about the book. This is quite a different experience because I have not come across another member that so faithfully post his/her thoughts after every chapter.
Chin Joo wrote: "Thank you 4ZZZ, I have followed your commentaries about the book. This is quite a different experience because I have not come across another member that so faithfully post his/her thoughts after e..."Thanks Chin Joo. This style of posting tends to help me focus as well. Useful for writing reviews and keeping my aging brain in order as well lol.
Chin Joo wrote: "Thank you 4ZZZ, I have followed your commentaries about the book. This is quite a different experience because I have not come across another member that so faithfully post his/her thoughts after e..."Yes, he's putting a few of us to shame :)
4ZZZ wrote: "I have the 2 Kershaw bios sitting on the shelf to be read Jonny. One day I will get to them. I have read a couple of Hitler bios years back, Toland's but can hardly recall it and one other whose au..."I was living in Nicosia, and spent time in the Troodos MOuntains, and also a lot of time in Kyrenia, Famagusta, Limassol and Larnaca when I lived in Cyprus with my family from 1972-74. I was 12 when the Turks came in and we had to evacuate. I remember that time quite well from when I was a student at The Junior School in Nicosia.
Colin wrote: "4ZZZ wrote: "I have the 2 Kershaw bios sitting on the shelf to be read Jonny. One day I will get to them. I have read a couple of Hitler bios years back, Toland's but can hardly recall it and one o..."My wife and I went on a vacation for there in 2000. We were visiting relatives in the UK at the time and took a cheap January week that was on special. Great place and would have thought that it would have been a wonderful time for you as a youngster who I presume then had an interest in history. The invasion would have been quite an event to be part of as a 12 year old at the time I would have thought. Were you there with your folks?
We stayed just outside Limmasol heading east. Hired a car and looked around every day for the 7 days we were there. Never made it to the north of the island as that was then out of bounds but spent time exploring the beautiful Troodos mountains, Saint Nicholas of The Roof was my first foray into a frescoed Byzantine church and it blew me away. Had a coffee one day at a place that let us onto the roof to look into deserted Famagusta through some binoculars as that was out of bounds as well. I always recall they had Zebra Finches in a cage, native to Australia, and was naive enough to have wondered what they were doing there. The drive into Nicosia on the freeway in with the flags of the north and Turkey painted into the hillside for the south to have no choice but to look at stands out as well. So enjoyed Nicosia though. Could talk about that week all day haa haa. Still so fresh in the mind.
Funny you guys are talking about Cyprus. I was posted there for 8 months in 1995 as part of UNCIVPOL. Was based first in Nicosia and then in the little village of Linou up in the Troodos Mountains. I managed to explore nearly every old church and castle on both sides of the buffer zone and loved it. Talk about a place full of history, nice people, good food and decent beer.
I know Linou, and the church, our friends had family there. We attended a Greek wedding, lasted 3 days
Its a beautiful place, I brought back a love for Halloumi cheese amongst other things.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Its a beautiful place, I brought back a love for Halloumi cheese amongst other things."I watched a food show on tv last night covering Cyprus. Made my mouth water!
While exploring Nicosia we came across an Aussie from UNCIVPOL Rick. Was not aware they were there until then. And yes the food. Had the best BBQ chook ever at a small eatery in a Troodos Mountains village. As to Halloumi love it!
The Australians have been providing Police for UNCIVPOL for over 50 years, I think it is the longest continuous peacekeeping force in the UN. If your interested here is some information on the Australian commitment:https://www.afp.gov.au/sites/default/...
Thanks for that Rick. Will read that in detail. The Kangaroos Club. LOL we just cant help ourselves can we. Do they take on Admin officers who are looking for a year or so doing something different? .
4ZZZ wrote: "Thanks for that Rick. Will read that in detail. The Kangaroos Club. LOL we just cant help ourselves can we. Do they take on Admin officers who are looking for a year or so doing something differen..."
I think at long last the Australian government is pulling our police out of this UN commitment otherwise I'd volunteer for the job :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "4ZZZ wrote: "Thanks for that Rick. Will read that in detail. The Kangaroos Club. LOL we just cant help ourselves can we. Do they take on Admin officers who are looking for a year or so doing somet..."
That's a disgrace. Don't they realise that this is excellent cultural training???? :-)
I've been unbelievably busy with work and other reading commitments, but I finally got around to finishing Klaus Barbie: Butcher of Lyons by Tom Bower. As most can probably imagine he was quite the despicable character. The book does a good job discussing Barbie's actions as head of the Lyons Gestapo. There are often numerous conflicting accounts of Barbie's actions, drawn from court documents, testimony from Barbie, and the author's interviews. The book provided good insight into the operations and dysfunction of the French resistance around Lyons. Quite a sizable section was also spent discussing Barbie's time working for US intelligence, and what each agency or intelligence chief supposedly knew or didn't know about Barbie's past. Probably the most interesting part was the overview and discussion of the Nazi diaspora to Bolivia, Argentina, and other South American nations and the eventual efforts to track and extradite some of the nastiest war criminals who became very successful Bolivian/Chilean citizens. As the book was published in 1985, it is a bit dated and therefore there is no discussion of Barbie's eventual conviction in 1987.
Hi James, glad you enjoyed that book. I remember reading it a few years after it was published and found it interesting as I did with the authors book on the search for Nazi scientists:
The Paperclip Conspiracy: The Hunt for the Nazi Scientists by Tom Bower
I knew and interviewed many people who either knew or pursued Barbie, Simon Wiesenthal, Karl Wolff, and I knew Pierre Deshayes (look him up), and the overall picture of Barbies was interesting.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Paperclip Conspiracy: The Hunt for the Nazi Scientists (other topics)Klaus Barbie: BUTCH/ (other topics)
A Street in Arnhem: The Agony of Occupation and Liberation (other topics)
Islam and Nazi Germany’s War (other topics)
Yamashita's Ghost: War Crimes, MacArthur's Justice, and Command Accountability (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Tom Bower (other topics)Tom Bower (other topics)
David Motadel (other topics)
Richard Overy (other topics)
Thorolf Hillblad (other topics)
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