On Paths Unknown discussion
This topic is about
White Noise
AMERICAN POSTMODERNISTS
>
1. WHITE NOISE by Don de Lillo. Chapters 1-10.
That's what caught my eye right off! I am up to about page 60 and still don't know how it fits, but there is plenty of other stuff to keep my interest, though I am reading 2 or 3 other books at the same time.I noticed some of you called this po-mo, and that you weren't crazy about reading it because of that label. Totally ignorant here, please feel me in. :)
Mod
Yes, to all of the above, if it is not too much to ask :)
Mod
I know nothing about post modern books....But this is my favorite book so far this year.
Mod
*{Academic} {Instead of giving a structured answer, let me start.. hmm, let's have a look at the nature of postmodernist fiction first, at the risk of boring you.
Scholars in literature and in literary history, have, as you know, always loved to categorize fiction and other literature into categories that would at least in part help to identify and describe written texts; hence genres and hence literary periods, (and movements).
An example of a division of English literature into periods or movements, would be: (view spoiler) I discussed po-mo characteristics at lengths in my Railsea review. }
Sorry, gtg, but more later.
I have never payed attention to what category a book may fall under. It has never really crossed my mind. If I think I will like it, I will read it.
Mod
*{Academic} {Oh, absolutely, and of course, just because a book falls into a certain genre or period, doesn't mean that it would be like another book that falls withing the same genre or period, so although it would be fair to say that you don't like a book based on sub-genre, for instance, let's say, bodice-rippers or travel fiction; disliking a book based on the time period it falls in, to me is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. :P
(view spoiler) }
Thank you, Traveller! I feel sure that with the discussion of WN this will all become even clearer. :)
Mod
This is just a petty gripe, I know, but I somehow couldn't help wondering where the narrator got the justification for saying the following:
Babette is tall and fairly ample; there is a girth and heft to her. Her hair is a fanatical blond mop, a particular tawny hue that used to be called dirty blond. If she were a petite woman, the hair would be too cute, too mischievous and contrived. Size gives her tousled aspect a certain seriousness. Ample women do not plan such things. They lack the guile for conspiracies of the body.
Hmm, now why would larger women lack guile, and petite women be endowed with lots of it, I wonder? Purely based on physical attractiveness? ...and if so, does that not imply that only petite women can be attractive?
I suppose I took it as part and parcel with someone who would be heading Hitler Studies. I am surprised he isn't more of an asshole than he is.
Mod
+1
Mod
Let's keep our eye on the idea that many postmodernist first-person narrators are unreliable and complex, and let's try to suss him out as we go along. I apologize that I'm so behind with the reading, will do my best to catch up; I know you're all far ahead.
Mod
Well, there is one postmodernist theme for your list, Ruth! Whereas the complex possibly unreliable narrator, is a postmodern characteristic. ;)
Mod
The smoke alarm went off in the hallway upstairs, either to ‘et us know the battery had just died or because the house was on fire. We finished our lunch in silence.
I'll comment more on that later.
Mod
(view spoiler)
Can you see, Ruth, how, even from the start, the novel engages with the postmodernist issues of crowds, urbanization, consumerism, etc. ?
Mod
I'm not (ahead)!
Mod
I'm not (ahead)!"
Oh! Goodie, then! It's always nice to have a companion close to where you are. :D
Traveller wrote: "At the end of chapter 2: Note how well this passage fit in with the title of the story:The smoke alarm went off in the hallway upstairs, either to ‘et us know the battery had just died or because..."
The title Waves and Radiation? I don't get it.... But I did like the quote, especially as they just kept eating. :)
I also marked the paragraph above, particularly "Something lurked inside the truth,"
Mod
In which ways would you guys say that those 2 are comparable?
Traveller wrote: "..and in chapter 3, the rather brilliant (I think, anyway) commentary on the effect urbanization has on the narrator. I want to be free of cities and sexual entanglements. Heat. This is what c..."
I like this quote too. It reminded me of North Cyprus. Due to the embargo since 1974, the north looked like the Third World, adobe houses, A/C rare. The heat was difficult but livable. Then about 2002, A/Cs started appearing everywhere, and weirdly the heat outside increased dramatically. I have heard similar tales of change from other areas of the Middle East, for example (can't remember exactly where) many houses were conical with a kind of large screw in the high point of the ceiling, which lifted the hot air out of the house. When these were replaced by A/C, the overall environment outside became much hotter.
Cities are a bad thing, perhaps? (says the woman who lives 100 km from the city)
Mod
Oh, I was referring to "White Noise".
(view spoiler)
Tell me, what does the term "white noise" signify to you? (It might mean different things to different people).
Mod
I want to be free of cities and sexual entanglements. Heat..."
Nice observations linking back to his comments there, Ruth - so you are saying that a (modern, high-tech) city is literally hotter due to certain aspects of the technology we use in the tech-advanced West - and yes, these are obviously specifically the kinds of city he is referring to; which makes me wonder if perhaps non-high tech cities would also be warmer, albeit not as much.
Note however, that he does seem to convey in addition a kind of 'virtual' heat as well, especially when you visualize all the sex he refers to and all of those warm bodies in close proximity.
When I hear the term 'white noise', my first thought is radio static.
Mod
Me too. Also TV static. Then my mind goes to the white noise generator a girl I knew in college had to help her sleep.
Mod
Btw, though, are you people familiar with the whole digitized white noise thing where people play generic white noise or the sound of waves to help them sleep or concentrate because it drowns out distracting background noises?
That is not exactly the sense in which De Lillo meant white noise, I don't think, but I'm just mentioning it as an aside, especially after Amy's comment.
Mod
..and what about this rather enigmatic phrase:
“No one sees the barn,” he said finally. A long silence followed. “Once you’ve seen the signs about the barn, it becomes impossible to see the barn.” [1]
[1] Suggestion: Wouldn't you say that perhaps what he is trying to say is that a lot of media hype about a thing, changes the way we perceive a thing, so that eventually it becomes hard to see the wood for the trees, and much harder to make your own judgements about a thing?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Mod
Of course, these days, the kids sit and text and game at the same time in front of the TV.
Mod
Simulacra and Simulation is mentioned in the critical edition of White Noise, because of how White Noise also, in line with commentary by critics like Adorno, Jameson and Baudrillard, comments on the flatness and ‘emptiness’ of postmodern consumerist society. (Our society :P ;) )
What did you think of the whole spiel around Jack Gladney changing his name and appearance to fit a certain image?
(view spoiler)
Mod
It is as if he is splashing and kicking on the surface of a deep lake, and while the surface things are making noise around him, deeply submerged are these echoes of thoughts around existence and death.
Mod
Tell you guys what; to make the multi-thread format easier, I will post a link to the index page in the first post of every discussion.
Well 'Simularca and simulation' caught up my attention. Lucky me, it was in the 'top of my notifications' this morning, I intend, to follow closely yr future posts here, even if it means, I may be standing 'from the shadows'
Mod
Are you familiar with Baudrillard's work?
Traveller wrote: "Dan's. :)Are you familiar with Baudrillard's work?"
sorry I was responding, to a curious messager, here from my country, Well, I just check'd on my previous entry of this book It read August 2013--- It's been some time, and i was hoping for a translation, in Greek, that is
instead I've read recent translation, from short works of his, a travellogue in America, his pragmatism about 'consumerism' -Power inferno, about the 'significance of the hit on the 2 towers on9-11 .. In a few facets of his works, he leaves me speechless, other chapters onhis works though, find me in a 'difficult path' to follow his argumentation.
To cut a long story short,I was afraid that this epoch of his works, would be quite difficult to digest, and In February, I caught up, with a copy of the work you are discussing here, in a majore bookstore, it was in store for sbd else, but heck. it isn't so hard for the layreader.. I think I might take the chance, and read it through [ Just not so sure, which translation I should try, in English, of his work ..still ] - Come tmr night I'll tell ya what i think of 'White noise' according to my recollections, from Naomi Cleine's hit book.
Mod
I was drawn into the family from the get go. One of my favorite scenes from the book was the conversation with Jack and Heinrich about the rain. I wasn't bothered my Jacks description of Babette. I felt it was honest. That she was honest. And that he loved her for her and everything about her.
Mod
I wasn't bothered my Jacks description of Babette...."
Yes, thanks for pointing out that lack of guile is actually used in a positive sense here; I must say that I also enjoyed his later descriptions of her;
(view spoiler)
Jennifer wrote: "I was drawn into the family from the get go. One of my favorite scenes from the book was the conversation with Jack and Heinrich about the rain. I wasn't bothered my Jacks description of Babette...."
I agree, Jennifer! I love the family conversations and how this particular blended family works.
Mod
...and about the "image" that Jack Gladney's boss wants him to construct, the necessity of which Jack seems to agree with?
I'd try, Traveller, but I just don't know enough about Elvis ;)
I do want to say I just saw postmodern used in a sentence, and it made sense! Thanks, Traveller!
Mod
I suspect the sort of subtle point being made might be (since Elvis was a celebrity )(and this is only a guess) that these people are actually making Hitler into a sort of celebrity.
(Which is just yet another way to illustrate how po-mo people don't care about the essence of things (such as that Hitler was in essence a monster) but rather about what things or people can do for us-Hitler's "shock"-value, or sensation value can be used by Jack and his institution to further their careers.
...but I might be missing something huge.... :P
I suspect the Elvis /Hitler thing has to do with the fact they are still very much alive, despite actually being dead. In some ways more so than when they were actually alive.
Mod
Also a good point yes - there are many people who refused to believe either of them died when they were supposed to have died, and then of course, as mentioned, they were both famous, if for different reasons.
...but do you also see what I mean about how they are sort of making Hitler's persona into something different than what Hitler was about?
In a certain sense, though, Hitler is a good choice from the author's point of view, since he was a master propagandist, who knew how to play on the emotions of the masses and use it to his own advantage.
I guess you could say Elvis did the same...in a different way. At least he wasn't a psychopath....
I wondered what Jack's classes were like. We never got to sit in on one. It could have been interesting.
Mod
And also - have you ever seen Elvis perform? He wore these shiny outfits and this coiffed hair, and he really put on this big show with dancing and hip-gyrating, so. like you said, Jennifer, they were both showmen who could put on a performance that could transport the masses to a point of hysteria.
Apparently Hitler had a sort of animal magnetism that made women swoon for him - I wouldn't know, but that's what they say. And that is something that Elvis also had. Girls were screaming for him - well, you know the rock-star scenario.
So, I would say that both Elvis and Hitler fit in with one of the novel's themes - that of people putting on an 'image' in order to manipulate the public. (Which fit in with advertising and propaganda- did you know that advertising science and the art of propaganda had the same roots in public relations - it started with books like the 1928 Propaganda by Edward L. Bernays, who is also called the father of public relations.
On Paths Unknown
Books mentioned in this topic
Simulacra and Simulation (other topics)Propaganda (other topics)
Postmodernism or the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism (other topics)
Simulacra and Simulation (other topics)
American Psycho (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jean Baudrillard (other topics)Edward L. Bernays (other topics)
Fredric Jameson (other topics)
Jean Baudrillard (other topics)
Bret Easton Ellis (other topics)
More...
So, I've just posted a comment at the end of this thread (on the next page of this thread, here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... ), in order to kick off our 2021 discussion.
Please feel free to comment directly thereafter.
Link to index page of this discussion: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
[EDIT] I've realized not everybody would be interested in the dryer, more academic aspects of every work, but even if you're not, you can just skip over those. I'm going to try and make things easier by marking those as "academic" and perhaps put them in italics or even hide the worst bits under spoiler tags, and then I'll put the leading questions directed at all of you, in bold (or underlined like I've done here?). I hope that will make it easier for everybody to participate. :)
Hi everyone! As promised, I'm making a thread for White Noise by Don DeLillo for us all to post some thoughts on.
Since we've all concluded that we're strapped for time at the moment, our threads will be very informal. Post if you can, but no problem if you can't. :)
...and in this informal vein, I must start off by saying that I found the Hitler theme pretty intriguing. Knowing about some of the themes in advance of reading the book, I'm pretty curious to see how Hitler studies would fit into the rest of it!