What is Space Opera?

[C. John]

I recall a show called Nowhere Man where a guy was on the run from some sort of organizaiton (possibly governmental). The last episode of the first season and only season (and the only one I watched) was billed as the episode that would answer all the questions. It did do that, and also opened up a bunch more. Of course the great thing about those types of shows is that when you want to end the series you have a ready-made final episode, and one that theoretically allows for no revival.

[Réal]

R. Michael wrote: "I look at "space opera" a little differently, I don't think you can pull a check list of elements and have space opera pop out. For me it is about the emotions it produces when you read it. The fir..."
I agree with this perspective. I think space opera has great depth to it, as well as advanced techno aspects. The emotional content and what the characters experience as they delve deep into space is highly relevant because how we respond and adapt to that Universe out there, away from our comfort zone here on Earth, is just as interesting as meeting up with alien races and such.

[Tom]

Réal wrote: "R. Michael wrote: "I look at "space opera" a little differently, I don't think you can pull a check list of elements and have space opera pop out. For me it is about the emotions it produces when y..."

As in music, Opera suggests a grand scope, e.g., many worlds, many players (aliens) and many themes playing out simultaneously. A lot of them have tragic endings.

[Fiannawolf]

One person's space opera is another's Planetary Romance. I think nowadays various genres of sci fi are bleeding into one another.

[Mary]

While Space Opera and Planetary Romance are closely related, I think it's a useful distinction between the adventures that take to the vast depths of space and those that are bound to a planet.

[R.]

Mary wrote: "While Space Opera and Planetary Romance are closely related, I think it's a useful distinction between the adventures that take to the vast depths of space and those that are bound to a planet."

Agreed. However some novels have elements of both.

[Lizzie]

Fiannawolf wrote: "One person's space opera is another's Planetary Romance. I think nowadays various genres of sci fi are bleeding into one another."

I agree. It makes it difficult to categorize them. It used to be simple - hard sci-fi or fantasy. I am pleased there are so many more options but sometimes combining too many themes into one story can detract from character development, world development, or the scope of the saga and the plot. I have mixed feelings about the mixed genres.

[Lizzie]

Tom wrote: "Réal wrote: "R. Michael wrote: "I look at "space opera" a little differently, I don't think you can pull a check list of elements and have space opera pop out. For me it is about the emotions it pr..."

And like musical opera, it brings forth a variety of emotions.

[Mary]

Anna wrote: "Space Opera grew out of the old spaghetti western pulp fiction that was popular at that time. And quite frankly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that! Clint Eastwood in space? Totally rocks...."

It's an old rule in both SF and fantasy that if you could remove the speculative element entirely without modification to the story. You could always write a pulp Western .

To be sure, there's some question about what constitutes "modification."

[Mary]

R. Michael wrote: "I look at "space opera" a little differently, I don't think you can pull a check list of elements and have space opera pop out.."

Sure you can.

It just may be a very BAD one.

[Trike]

Mary wrote: "Anna wrote: "Space Opera grew out of the old spaghetti western pulp fiction that was popular at that time. And quite frankly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that! Clint Eastwood in space? Totally rocks...

It's an old rule in both SF and fantasy that if you could remove the speculative element entirely without modification to the story. You could always write a pulp Western .

To be sure, there's some question about what constitutes "modification." "

Yes, the cognoscenti have long maintained that the ultimate test of whether something was "real Science Fiction" has always been that if you removed the science fictional element the story would collapse. Problem is, it's pretty much impossible to find such a story, despite assertions to the contrary.

Once you start deconstructing any story, you will find parallels within other genres or somewhere in history. Admittedly, some are easier than others, but I can't recall offhand any examples which stood up to that test.

Space Opera doesn't even bother trying to disguise its origins and similarities to other genres. A lot of it is simply Horatio Hornblower in space. They aren't all as eye-rollingly obvious as Treasure Planet, but you can pretty easily compare them directly.

Years ago on Usenet I did a direct translation of Star Wars into both a Fantasy and Western, and had no trouble doing so. The story remains exactly the same, as do the relationships between the characters.

In Fantasy Wars the Death Star becomes a floating island with a magic crystal. In West Wars it's a train with an absurdly large cannon on it. In FW the droids are golems. In WW they are escaped slaves. And so on.

It's easy to do that because Lucas took the story and characters from existing films and genres. Star Wars is Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress combined with iconography from Westerns and pirate movies. Lucas translated Star Wars into a Fantasy himself with Willow. It's pretty much the exact same characters reenacting the same story.

Which is not surprising, since Star Wars is pretty much Flash Gordon with serial numbers scratched off.

[C. John]

Actually the best adaptation of the Flash Gordon comics I have seen was the animated television show that came out in the late 70s or early 80s. The earliest SF didn't take its readers much beyond the galaxy, which is where Space Opera came in. It painted its stories on a wider canvas.

[R.]

From my point of view the technology changes the rules subtly and lets me tell a different story.

Because my spaceships are all push-buttons and power controls no great physical strength is needed to operate them. Because the communication net is so good it is possible to put younger officers in charge, in the same way that radio telephony let very young pilots operate in the Battle of Britain.

Put the two together and you have girls in their late teens operating spaceships.

That really good fun.

[Steph]

R. wrote: "...in the same way that radio telephony let very young pilots operate in the Battle of Britain..."

I think their relative youth was more to do with high rates of pilot mortality. Interesting theory, though.

Space opera does tend to prefer the 'romance' of heroic pilots in tiny fighter craft battling against the odds. I suspect hard sci-fi would look at the current trend towards unmanned drones, extrapolate that and have future air forces sitting in corporate offices fighting their battles remotely.

[R.]

Steph wrote: "R. wrote: "...in the same way that radio telephony let very young pilots operate in the Battle of Britain..."

I think their relative youth was more to do with high rates of pilot mortality. Intere..."

I was thinking of the difference between the age at which a lieutenant in the Napoleonic wars, which were run by flag signalling, could take command of a ship, and WW2. Both suffered high rates of mortality.

[Mary]

Steph wrote: "I suspect hard sci-fi would look at the current trend towards unmanned drones, extrapolate that and have future air forces sitting in corporate offices fighting their battles remotely."

Maybe. Issues with AIs, such as revolts, can finesse the issue entirely.

[Jason]

Space Opera for me has been Doc Smith, Piper, David Drake's RCN, Weber's Honor Harrington, Star Trek and Star Wars, Buster Crabbe's Flash Gordon, Doctor Who, Space 1999 and Blake's 7 .

I love a lot of sci-fi but some books and movies are sci-fi to me and not Space Opera. For example Howard Hawk's Thing from another World would be Space Opera even though it is set on Earth, while Campbell's short story 'Who Goes There?' would be sci-fi to me.

[Kirsten]

I absolutely LOVE Space:1999!!!

Let me just say that I think the Brits can really do sci-fi and space opera. I listen to BBC 4 Extra all the time and Charles Chilton's radio space operas are great fun!

[Jason]

Kirsten *Make Margaret Atwood Fiction Again!" wrote: "I absolutely LOVE Space:1999!!!

Let me just say that I think the Brits can really do sci-fi and space opera. I listen to BBC 4 Extra all the time and Charles Chilton's radio space operas are great..."

So much of modern space opera is based on British naval history that it is very much worth trying Forester, Kent Alexander and O'Brian.

[Betsy]

From Tor.com:

Explore the Cosmos in 10 Classic Space Opera Universes

[Mario the lone bookwolf]

Space opera makes the sometimes grim elements of science fiction seem softer and less frightening. The topics may still be serious, but it´s more entertaining than a too heavy read

[Mike]

Jason wrote: So much of modern space opera is based on British naval history that it is very much worth trying Forester, Kent Alexander and O'Brian..."

It does seem to be the dominant source of inspiration for now, possibly because people tend to associate WWII with carrier actions and aren't familiar with the major surface battles.

[L J]

WWII to Space Opera = Sink the Bismark to Destroy the Deathstar?

[Teresa, Plan B is in Effect]

A lot of it goes back even farther. Horatio Hornblower in space.

[Trike]

Teresa wrote: "A lot of it goes back even farther. Horatio Hornblower in space."

Yep. See #161 above.

[Brian]

I like too think of Space Opera as; Star Wars meets Star Trek.

[Trike]

Brian wrote: "I like too think of Space Opera as; Star Wars meets Star Trek."

...and then they fight.

[C. John]

Raymond Chandler wrote a lot of material set in an area of space he called The Rim. A number of them follow the career of an Horatio Hornblower type character.
Treasure Planet is Treasure Island in space. 'Nuff said.

[L J]

C. John wrote: "Raymond Chandler wrote a lot of material set in an area of space he called The Rim. A number of them follow the career of an Horatio Hornblower type character.
Treasure Planet is Treasure Island in..."

I think you are thinking of A. Bertram Chandler.

[C. John]

Well at least I got the last name right.

[Lizzie]

Mario wrote: "Space opera makes the sometimes grim elements of science fiction seem softer and less frightening. The topics may still be serious, but it´s more entertaining than a too heavy read"

It is what always drew me to science fiction as a teen. The issues that were hidden in the stories Because they were intelligent cats, robots, AIs, some other world's ecology and so on - my overly fundamental religious mother had no clue as to the ideas I was being exposed to at age 12 to include religion, sexuality, and gender - forbidden topics!

[odedo1]

I would say that Space Opera is usually a real long story and what makes it special is that it makes sense no magic stuff, it's all can come true.

[Teresa, Plan B is in Effect]

odedo1 wrote: "I would say that Space Opera is usually a real long story and what makes it special is that it makes sense no magic stuff, it's all can come true."
That sounds more like hard SF to me. Space Opera often includes some kind of psi powers, and I’ve seen quite a few with outright magic of one kind or another. Space Opera to my mind is lighter than hard SF, and usually has a reasonably happy or at least optimistic ending. It usually has more focus on the characters and/or action and less on the technology, but still some technology.

For example, Star Wars is Space Opera. Jedi mind tricks, using the Force, etc, is magic as far as I’m concerned but that’s okay.

[Trike]

I agree. Space Opera can be either Science Fiction or Fantasy, but most examples are pretty clearly the latter.

[L J]

I don't worry if SF I read is Space Opera while at the same time realizing I tend to read Space Opera whether opera, modern musical or soap opera. The drama of Wagner's Ring Cycle, the humor of Die Fledermaus, operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan, musicals and soap operas tell of people swept up in stories/plots they have to deal with more than control. There's tech, usually spaceships, sometimes aliens and war but for me it comes down to the characters and how they deal with what is happening. Space, tech, ship, etc. frequently function as characters with which other characters must interact rather than settings where characters are located.

[odedo1]

Have you read Peter F. Hamilton lately, one of the best Space Opera writers and you'll never find happy endings with him!! About Star Wars, I'm not sure if I'd call it a space opera.
But I'm not an expert and everybody sees things differently that's what makes us humans it also why we are doomed but that another subject

[Trike]

I’ve read Mindstar Rising and The Reality Dysfunction by Hamilton. Both are technically Fantasy, because they have things which violate known science.

Star Wars is practically the poster child for cinematic Space Opera. Only Star Trek rivals it.

[Mary]

Trike wrote: "I’ve read Mindstar Rising and The Reality Dysfunction by Hamilton. Both are technically Fantasy, because they have things which violate known science."

Then there's very little SF in existence, FTL being rife in the genre.

[odedo1]

If you really understand Star Wars you’ll realize that it is world war 2 in space, the bad guys are the Nazis ( who hate all that are not the same ) the resistance are partisan’s that’s all, it’s that simple.

[Trike]

Mary wrote: "Trike wrote: "I’ve read Mindstar Rising and The Reality Dysfunction by Hamilton. Both are technically Fantasy, because they have things which violate known science."

Then there's very little SF in existence, FTL being rife in the genre.
"

FTL hasn’t been disproven, but there’s no evidence for psychic powers despite more than 60 years of expensive investigations. So long as we don’t know we should let it in.

[Trike]

odedo1 wrote: "If you really understand Star Wars you’ll realize that it is world war 2 in space, the bad guys are the Nazis ( who hate all that are not the same ) the resistance are partisan’s that’s all, it’s t..."

So? Lucas combined pirate movies, Westerns and WWII dogfight footage for Star Wars. That’s usually how Space Opera works. Most other Space Opera is based on Napoleonic sea warfare, specifically Horatio Hornblower. Gene Roddenberry was a B-17 pilot and he combined the tactics of bomber squadrons with submarine warfare for Star Trek.

[odedo1]

You have just proved my point, you can't see what's in front of you.
Look at the first order in Star Wars and tell me that they copied the nazis, you are blind and I'm out of this argument I don't have time for uneducated.

[Mary]

Is that your normal response to someone's agreeing with you?

[Kirsten]

Maybe she/he's off their medication??? Sounds a little cranky to me... (I usually sound like that before my first cup of coffee.)

[Trike]

odedo1 wrote: "You have just proved my point, you can't see what's in front of you.
Look at the first order in Star Wars and tell me that they copied the nazis, you are blind and I'm out of this argument I don't have time for uneducated."

Well, someone sure woke up in the wrong side of the Internet today, hm?

Of course the First Order was patterned after the Nazis. So was the Federation in the movie version of Starship Troopers. That’s pretty much what most stories do, they mix and match existing things to make something new. Space Opera in particular uses existing stories as a template.

George Lucas didn’t just pattern the space battles in Star Wars after WWII dogfights, he used a film called The Dam Busters as the pattern for the Death Star attack, lifting dialogue almost verbatim. See this comparison: https://youtu.be/lNdb03Hw18M

Not only that, but Princess Leia’s hairstyle is identical to one worn by the wife of one of the pilots. But that hairstyle wasn’t unique, it also showed up in Flash Gordon on Princess Frigia, of the ice planet, and Lucas only wrote Star Wars when he couldn’t get the rights to make a Flash Gordon movie. Convergence! Lucas also credits the hairstyles of Mexican revolutionary women, one woman in particular who led daring raids against the Spanish empire. http://www.rejectedprincesses.com/blo...

Lucas also lifted the story and look for Star Wars from Akira Kurosawa’s film Hidden Fortress. Two bickering peasants (droids), one short and fat (R2D2), the other tall and skinny (C3PO), escape an enemy’s attack (Empire) on their fort (spaceship) and cross a desert (Tatooine) encountering an elderly general (Obi-Wan) from the defeated nation (Republic) who has been hiding out; they enlist him him to rescue the defeated nation’s princess (Leia), whose homeland was destroyed (Alderaan), from inside the hidden fortress (Death Star), teaming up with a rogue (Han Solo) and his giant compatriot (Chewbacca). The only character missing is a Luke Skywalker analogue.

Not only that, but Lucas mimics the look of Kurosawa’s film, from the staging to the landscapes to the scene transitions using wipes. Throw in iconography from Westerns (the cantina shootout) and pirate movies (swing across the chasm, sword fights) and then set it all in space and you’ve got all the elements that make up Star Wars. None of them original or unique.

Hell, even John Williams’ iconic score is lifted from other composers, sometimes wholesale. Exhibit A: https://youtu.be/JtRU8cMp0Nk Exhibit B: https://youtu.be/5pM2SozsyPE

So much for my being uneducated about the sources of Star Wars.

[Ghost]

Would like some recommendations for space opera, but that's a bit offbeat. I have Ancillary trilogy on deck, along with Creation Machien and Iron Gods.

And the Wayfarers books (1 and 2)

[Teresa, Plan B is in Effect]

Have you tried Nathan Lowell’s books? Start with Quarter Share. Milk Run is also a good starting point but not as off beat.

[Ghost]

I really think I need help...

I just bought Sleeping Giants, Waking Gods, The Seven and Luna New Moon. In fact I had to fiercely restrain myself from buying Wolf Moon as well!

This is getting out of hand!

[L J]

Ghost wrote: "I really think I need help...
I just bought Sleeping Giants, Waking Gods, The Seven and Luna New Moon. In fact I had to fiercely restrain myself from buying Wolf Moon as well!
This is getting out..."

Plenty of time to go back and get Wolf Moon. Publication of Moon Rising seems to have been postponed from July 2018 to March 2019.

[Ghost]

It's likely I'll buy it tomorrow.

Oh and I bought used copies of Exodus Tower and Plague Forge fror the Dire Earth trilogy. Hope the first book, Darwin Elevator is good, I bought it ages ago and still haven't read it.

Because I started reading the Expanse.

Nearly finished Abaddons Gate though, only about another 50 pages to go

Think i'll give Red Rising a miss...until I buy it. TBH I'm not convinced it's not YA.