Science Fiction is a Communist plot to undermine American values says the FBI...

[Andy]

Your tax dollars at work! Here's Ray Bradbury's FBI file -- https://www.muckrock.com/news/archive...

[[deleted user]]

No need to go that far in the past to encounter anti-communist paranoia, Andy. Only a year ago, a reader (probably from a southern state) called one of my books 'a direct assault on Christianity and a full blown endorsement of communism'. Two other readers jumped to my defense just after that. My book was actually a SF novel centered on time travel and I am a French-Canadian who served 32 years in the Canadian Army (in military intelligence). I consider myself a humanist and an agnostic and certainly was never communist or pro-communist. Mind you, for some in the U.S.A., Canada is a communist country because we have a single-payer health care system, so go figure! I am happy to see that Ray Bradbury didn't let himself being muzzled by that bunch of redneck morons.

[Trike]

Your flag DOES feature a red leaf pretty prominently. On a white background. Clearly meaning Canada has surrendered to the commies.

[Papaphilly]

I think Ray Bradbury had the last laugh in the end.

[[deleted user]]

Trike wrote: "Your flag DOES feature a red leaf pretty prominently. On a white background. Clearly meaning Canada has surrendered to the commies."

Tell that to the Canadian soldiers from the PPCLI Regiment who held on to their positions against repeated Communist Chinese assaults in Kapyong, in South Korea, during the Korean War. (I know that you meant that as a joke).

[Jim]

As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)

[K. G.]

It was J.Edgar Hoover, may he rot in Hell. The man was paranoid, not so much about commies, as gays. Commie hunting, however, was a good excuse to go gay hunting--and Hoover himself was. Check out Roy Cohn. What a right piece of work!

[Jennifer]

We Americans are not a rational bunch are we?!

[Ken]

I find it interesting that "communism" is still considered "them" and "capitalism" is still considered "us". This is a narrative told by government leaders who operated under a gargantuan shadow of fear in the wake of WW2.

One of the interesting byproducts of SF is that it tends to focus on future utopia/dystopia and carries out political, scientific, and sociological ideas to their furthest extent. This lays bare the weaknesses of each and makes the essential case that a compromise is truly the only viable course, and that the situation is never bipolar but multi-polar.

I think SF has an intrinsic component to it that cannot dismiss socialism completely, because grand SF projects like generation ships, colonization, or defense of Earth against external forces - absolutely require a statistically significant portion of humanity to think and act in a socially-conscious manner in order to survive.

[Julia]

Yes, Hoover was terrified of being outed, while at the same time he publically wore dresses to underground gay clubs. What an awful, awful man.

One of the big bugaboos of HUAC/ McCarthy/ Hoover is fear of intelligence and asking questions and inviting answers that are challenging. Also, fighting between the CIA and FBI. Besides gays, they went after Jews, and they went after academics. Academics who had worked with Russians when they were our allies, just a few years before, were especially suspect.

Yet, at the same time we wouldn't allow a certain group of academics to work, we were trying to beat the Russians into space with Sputnik.

I bet Isaac Asimov also has an FBI file.

[S. K.]

Michel wrote: "Mind you, for some in the U.S.A., Canada is a communist country because we have a single-payer health care system, so go figure!"

As is documented here:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/618f...

Kenneth wrote: "I find it interesting that "communism" is still considered "them" and "capitalism" is still considered "us"."

Maybe for the same reason that much genre fiction is still of the black hat/white hat variety. It's easier to pick a side when there are only two.

[Papaphilly]

Julia wrote: "Yes, Hoover was terrified of being outed, while at the same time he publically wore dresses to underground gay clubs. What an awful, awful man.

One of the big bugaboos of HUAC/ McCarthy/ Hoover is..."

Allot of people had files.

Just for the record, Hoover may/ may not be gay and it was never proved, but only speculated. The cross dressing incidents as published by Anthony Summers was pretty much demolished by historians.

[Jim]

Kenneth wrote: "I find it interesting that "communism" is still considered "them" and "capitalism" is still considered "us". This is a narrative told by government leaders who operated under a gargantuan shadow of fear in the wake of WW2. ..."

Remember that from a European point of view the Second World War can be seen as a European civil war fought between left and right, which the right lost.

From an American point of view because of the concentration on the Pacific theatre as well that perspective doesn't make so much sense. From the British point of view, whilst we had a lot of fighting in the East, we also had issues in the Balkans where we had British agents betraying other British agents to communist authorities. If you follow the story of Blunt, Burgess, Maclean, and Philby you'll see how things developed.
So a degree of American paranoia was probably justified. It was the actions taken as a result of that paranoia which were probably over the top.
It is interesting that at one point, after the fall of communism and the collapse of the Soviet Union, a lot of stuff was coming out and historians hoped that within a few years we'd have the definitive answers to what was going on in the US from the Soviet point of view. Unfortunately Putin is not the person to encourage the release of papers.

[Al]

Interesting thread. What does it have to do with books??? Not grousing. Curious.

[Trike]

Al wrote: "Interesting thread. What does it have to do with books??? Not grousing. Curious."

Books are a mind-altering drug.

[Adam]

Funny, I wrote a novel about government surveillance and had both liberal and conservative people say they liked it!

The good news is we have freedom of speech in the US as part of the Constitution. So authors should be okay writing what they want. Of course, people who don't like it also have the right to say what they want. Best not to take it too personally, I guess.

[Al]

Trike wrote: "Al wrote: "Interesting thread. What does it have to do with books??? Not grousing. Curious."

Books are a mind-altering drug."

ROFL-CGU

Back to the main theme, I doubt if SF can be tagged with the Communists or a plot to "undermine" American values. I see so many different outlooks in SF, that it's almost impossible to put a political "tag" on it.

I see stories that affirm the "basic" values of our society as seen by conservatives (authors like Heinlein and such). I see stories that look like they were written by a "card carrying" liberal (stories about Global Warming in the future, culture wars, socialist society). And I see stories that seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with politics or culture, but rather feature the struggle of some sentient being (usually a human) against a deadly foe or situation (survival on strange planets and so forth).

With all that breadth of themes, it's impossible to make a serious blanket statement such as the premise of this thread.

SF is truly the widest "frontier" of the literary world.

[Papaphilly]

Al wrote: "Trike wrote: "Al wrote: "Interesting thread. What does it have to do with books??? Not grousing. Curious."

Books are a mind-altering drug."

ROFL-CGU

Back to the main theme, I doubt if SF can be..."

Au contraire mon frere,

You are making the mistake of thinking and it is the lack of thinking that leads to the accusations. Anything in the black and white universe that is not white is labeled "subversive" or "dangerous" so it can be stamped out.

[Al]

Still, they're trying to damn an entire genre just because a few books offend them?

Karl Marx wrote a book on economics, Das Kapital that laid out the Communist/Socialist theory. Does that mean that all books on economics are Communist?

I think someone in the FBI has his belt on too tight.

[[deleted user]]

There are still too much people in the USA who are unwilling to accept or even tolerate opinions or ideas that they don't agree with, and that is a shame. That intolerance sometimes can intimidate new writers from expressing themselves freely or even deter them from writing about certain subjects that are considered controversial. That kind of intolerance and intimidation is something that I hate and will never accept or tolerate. SF authors should be able to write and express themselves freely, despite what some intolerant minds may think.

[Ken]

Worse than that, there are a large number of people who don't even know what their opinions are - they just accept what they're told to believe.

[Anil]

Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

On the other hand as a former Indian (and now Indian-American) I also have given up on wondering at British sensitivities - especially when India executes a successful scientific space shot :) A little insecure aren't we in the United Queendom now a days?

[[deleted user]]

Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

On the other hand as a former Indian (and now Indian-American) I also have given up on wondering at British s..."

I am sorry, Anil, but I see little correlation between the subject of this thread, ie intolerant views of SF, and India making a successful space shot. I am plenty aware of the bitter history between India and the UK, but it has nothing to do with this thread, while Americans equating SF with communism is pertinent.

[Anil]

Michel wrote: "Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

Michel, I am also aware of of the biter history between UK and its former colonies - the US whose citizen I am now and India where I was born. How is Jim's nationality pertinent to FBI's equating SF with communism? I would not have a problem had he omitted his nationality unless he thinks that his being "Brit" gives him some special insight into American sensibilities. As far as I am concerned, that was cheap shot arising out of colonial superciliousness towards former colonies and their institutions.

Frankly, putting a smiley would not absolve him of the mischief he wanted to play.

Sire, I have read British authors across all genres of fiction and a wide variety of non-fiction - scientific and philosophical including Alan Turing, JBS Haldane, Stephen Hawking, Bertrand Russel. I am hardly an Anglophobe but nor am I an Anglophile. I am simply indifferent to their trial sand tribulations except when there is a direct attack under the garb of sarcastic witty one-liners.

[Papaphilly]

Anil wrote: "Michel wrote: "Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

Michel, I am also aware of of the biter history between UK and its former colonie..."

Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

Ouch!

[Papaphilly]

Anil wrote: "Michel wrote: "Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

Michel, I am also aware of of the biter history between UK and its former colonie..."

OUCH again!

[Papaphilly]

Anil,

Welcome to America. You are going to do just fine. :^)

[Jennifer]

Sometimes we Americans are a dense bunch...And being married to an Indian I kinda understand where Anil is coming from.

[[deleted user]]

Papaphilly wrote: "Anil wrote: "Michel wrote: "Anil wrote: "Jim wrote: "As a Brit I've long ago given up wondering at American sensitivities. :-)"

Michel, I am also aware of of the biter history between UK and its f..."

Again, I would urge all concerned to stay on the topic of this thread, which has nothing to do about bad feelings between the UK and its past colonies (I was not the one who started that, mind you). Let's talk instead about intolerance directed at science-fiction.

[Anil]

Michel: I would like to bring this to your notice which is pertinent as the intolerance was directed against a Nobel prize winning author who stated in an interview that she likes her SF books more than al other books she has written.

'A subversive brothel keeper and Communist': How Nobel Prize-winning novelist Doris Lessing was kept under MI5 observation for 18 years

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/...

A small extract

The potential fifth columnist running an apparent house of ill repute was in fact one Doris Lessing, by then already a novelist of standing, and the “Americans, Chinese, Indians and negroes” visiting her home were attending to discuss the finer points of left-leaning literature and Marxist politics.

[[deleted user]]

Anil, that is what needs to be discussed in this thread. Unfortunately, in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, the British government and its security and police agencies showed as much bigotry, intolerance and paranoia as the American politicians, the FBI and, in fact, many American citizens. That British official intolerance also targetted homosexuals, which were victims of a ferocious program of harassment and discrimination, the case of Alan Turing being maybe the most celebrated one (he was chemically castrated and committed suicide afterwards).

The problem today is that, while there is no more official program or policy targetting so-called leftist writers or others considered to hold 'controversial' views, the attitude from certains sectors of the public can be characterized as downright hostile or even hateful towards those that hold those views, including writers. Even the definition of what is controversial by some vary widely, sometimes to a near-comical level. Unfortunately, those who hate the most are also often those who are the loudest, with the medias often amplifying their shouts in the name of sensationalism. As a French-Canadian who writes SF novels, I got myself a few rather nasty comments by some readers with what I would call bigoted attitudes and beliefs, so I know about intolerance shown to writers.

[Jim]

Anil wrote: "How is Jim's nationality pertinent to FBI's equating SF with communism? I would not have a problem had he omitted his nationality unless he thinks that his being "Brit" gives him some special insight into American sensibilities. As far as I am concerned, that was cheap shot arising out of colonial superciliousness towards former colonies and their institutions. ..."

Being a Brit does give us a considerable insight into American Sensibilities. I've noticed when with friends in the UK, Filipinos and Brits have been drenched in US culture in a way that my Nigerian or Tamil friends haven't.
It was at a wedding when this was driven home to me. When one Filipino lady started singing she got all the Filipinos and Brits singing along to US country and Western (Country Roads, City of New Orleans). Our Nigerian and Indian friends had never really heard the songs, they weren't part of their background. Mind you these are people who came to the UK as Adults.

Not only that but I'm old enough to have been youth hostelling during the 1970s. Until 1977 the hostels were full of young Americans, I grew up with them. I even went to university with them.

[M.L.]

Andy wrote: "Your tax dollars at work! Here's Ray Bradbury's FBI file -- https://www.muckrock.com/news/archive..."

This is under "News" but most news in this category is relatively recent. The reference link is basically about 1950s McCarthyism. Hopefully 'tax dollars' are still not supporting such. But who knows?

That's why the discussion vs topic are all over the place: because the title, category, and link are all over the place.

[Anil]

Jim: thanks. Now I understand. No hard feelings then. As I said I love British novel. I am in awe of Alan Turing and Bertrand Russell among others mathematicians and logicians. I am a doctorate in computer science. One quick OT and we can get to back to business.

Just recently our whole family were in UK. I discussed with our taxi driver the comparative merits of Doyle vs Christie vs Chesterton. Where else can one do that but in UK? Peace.

I also went through your blogs. Witty to say the least.
Looks like I found another fav Military SF author.

[Micah]

Jim wrote: "...singing along to US country and Western (Country Roads, City of New Orleans). Our Nigerian and Indian friends had never really heard the songs..."

God, how I envy them.

[Micah]

Adam wrote: "Funny, I wrote a novel about government surveillance and had both liberal and conservative people say they liked it!"

No mystery there. To liberals government surveillance of citizens not charged with a crime is an intolerable violation of privacy and due process. To conservatives it is an intolerable display of "big government" overreach.

But what about corporate surveillance? I recently complained about United Airlines on Twitter. I did not address it to United Airlines. I did not use a hashtag, I've only got 36 followers. No one retweeted it....In less than half an hour I got a reply from United Airlines saying how sorry they were and asking if I needed help re-booking.

Forget the NSA, Homeland Security, the FBI or whatever government agencies you want; corporations are already sifting through ALL Tiwtter posts ALL the time spying on you.

[[deleted user]]

Micah wrote: "Adam wrote: "Funny, I wrote a novel about government surveillance and had both liberal and conservative people say they liked it!"

No mystery there. To liberals government surveillance of citizens..."

Ah, but you forgot: if a corporation does it, it is not spying - it is data mining :)

[Jim]

Micah wrote: "Jim wrote: "...singing along to US country and Western (Country Roads, City of New Orleans). Our Nigerian and Indian friends had never really heard the songs..."

God, how I envy them."


Thanks Micah, I laughed out loud at that one :-)

[Jim]

Anil wrote: "Jim: thanks. Now I understand. No hard feelings then. As I said I love British novel. I am in awe of Alan Turing and Bertrand Russell among others mathematicians and logicians. I am a doctorate in ..."

No worries Anil. The internet is a faceless medium and communication gets stripped of a lot of its meaning.
I must admit I would rate them
Doyle
Christie
Chesterton

I enjoy the occasional Christie but struggle to read three or four. Doyle I like the atmosphere of the stories and the world it's set in. Not for nothing has he been absorbed into Steampunk :-)
Chesterton somehow just never did it for me, lacks something, I don't know what.
But this is all purely subjective.
If you're looking for detective stories and fancy something historical (which might appeal to fantasy lovers as well as a peripheral sort of thing) look out for the Chronicles of Brother Cadfael by Ellis Peters.
I've sat and re-read them through one after another and they don't get stale on me.


Glad you like the blog, hope you like the books (I suppose that's all a writer can really say :-) )

[Papaphilly]

Micah wrote: "Adam wrote: "Funny, I wrote a novel about government surveillance and had both liberal and conservative people say they liked it!"

No mystery there. To liberals government surveillance of citizens..."

Nah, they are not spying on you. They probably used a scraper that has their name on it and and you popped up. You have to remember, their brand is easily tarnished and one bad review may be read by millions. the fact that they moved so fast may feel creepy, but is probably more mundane. It does show they are watching for bad reviews and that is a plus if it improves service.

[Cheryl]

Technically getting 'scraped' and being specifically being targeted to be 'spyed on' are different, of course. But, yes, they're both creepy.

Still, I'm not worried until they get it right the majority of the time. The targeted marketing I see is always wrong. I can tell it's targeted, as it's related to what I've been looking at & doing, but it's just wrong.

Didn't Kornbluth address this kind of thing, maybe in Venus, Inc., or The Space Merchants?

[J.B.]

Jennifer wrote: "We Americans are not a rational bunch are we?!"

Our two party system ensures that the USA will always be a schizophrenic country. You don't have to pick a side, just sit back and question everything and everyone, and enjoy the ride.

[Joe]

If you're afraid of being spied upon, stay away from Google and all of its products is all I have to say.

[Jennifer]

John wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "We Americans are not a rational bunch are we?!"

Our two party system ensures that the USA will always be a schizophrenic country. You don't have to pick a side, just sit back and ..."

I read a book where China put Extacy in the drinking water. Everyone felt fine....

[Trike]

Micah wrote: "Forget the NSA, Homeland Security, the FBI or whatever government agencies you want; corporations are already sifting through ALL Tiwtter posts ALL the time spying on you. "

They don't even have to read the content to know everything about you. There's the famous story of a father who stormed into his local Target demanding to know why they were sending ads for maternity wear and neonatal vitamins to his teenage daughter. The manager apologized profusely. The man later returned and apologized to the manager for his tirade because it turns out his daughter was engaging in the sort of behavior that results in babies.

Target's algorithm's had sussed out the girl's pregnancy based solely on the narrow view they had of her purchasing habits. That's slightly unnerving.

On the other hand, the other day I complained on Twitter about the frustration I've been having with the claims agent at Traveler's insurance and they reached out to me immediately, asking for details. So I sent them the barebones information and within an hour they had put a boot up his ass and the claim I've been jumping through hoops about for months was suddenly facilitated, accompanied by an apologetic phone call and email from the guy. So in that instance their monitoring worked out in my favor.