Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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How to Help Self-Published Authors and Raise the Quality Bar
I think one key idea is that we need to mentor each other. Each of us has talents to share and each of us has things to learn. The more we help each other, the more we all prosper. I know a few authors who don't want to help others because it's "building up their competition". I don't agree with that at all. I think having high quality self published authors out there is beneficial to all of us. On the other hand, having iffy self published books on the shelves damages the reputation of all of us. It actively drives away readers from the entire self published arena, as we see time and time again in GoodReads postings.
As part of that mentoring, I think it's good to try to be compassionate in the feedback. Not all authors have developed the ability to hear feedback yet. It's important they do, of course, but it's OK if it takes a little while. The more we can provide consistent, supportive, understandable feedback that they can implement, the more we help them build that ability to "hear and consider" - and the more likely they are to make the changes necessary to improving their works.
Lisa
I've actually been utilizing the mentoring others method for a long time now Lisa. I even did reviews for authors before I was published myself. It's definitely a great way to help and to reduce the issue of iffy writing.
Amanda -That is so encouraging to hear!
I think sometimes authors honestly do want to improve but they've been "beaten down" by others so much in life that they fear having that happen with their "baby" of a novel.
I think if we can go about it in a supportive, encouraging fashion, then they'll unfurl a little and be able to hear and implement the suggestions.
Lisa
I think writing groups help with the challenge of providing feedback, because usually the author doesn't feel "targeted". They are just one of many, and everybody helps each other. They can see how the process works with other authors and get comfortable with it, before the flurry of comments comes in on their own work. Also, by hearing from a variety of voices, they can get a sense of how to read through all the ideas and implement the changes that make the most sense.
I.e. with some of my medieval novels I'll get conflicting feedback. One reader will say "not enough sexuality" and the next will say "a bit too risque" :). We're all different, and that's OK. That's a case where I decide where I want to draw that line and then make it clear in my marketing material so readers know what to expect.
Lisa
Another problem I only really realized after my own first novel was out, is that you really can't edit your own work. At least not to release quality. I think many find that out the hard way and that can pose problems with later work. This also affects promotions and re-releases of the work that took hits for that.
Amanda wrote: "Another problem I only really realized after my own first novel was out, is that you really can't edit your own work. At least not to release quality. I think many find that out the hard way and th..."
Lisa wrote: "I think one key idea is that we need to mentor each other. Each of us has talents to share and each of us has things to learn. The more we help each other, the more we all prosper.
I know a few a..."
You are absolutely correct in that self published authors cannot correct or edit their own work. However, it is very difficult to allow other writers to edit your work as well. As stated above, there is the jealousy issue, competition issue, and another important issue is, that writers should not edit other writers works, my own opinion of course. However, I've seen instances where a writer trusting another writer to edit them, and it was not done correctly and made the work look worse. I think the only way to insure correct, edited work is to either hire an editor, or find a publishing company to bear a bit of the burden. Our stories are worth the sacrifices we have to make to get them ready for publishing.
Lisa wrote: "I think one key idea is that we need to mentor each other. Each of us has talents to share and each of us has things to learn. The more we help each other, the more we all prosper.
I know a few a..."
You are absolutely correct in that self published authors cannot correct or edit their own work. However, it is very difficult to allow other writers to edit your work as well. As stated above, there is the jealousy issue, competition issue, and another important issue is, that writers should not edit other writers works, my own opinion of course. However, I've seen instances where a writer trusting another writer to edit them, and it was not done correctly and made the work look worse. I think the only way to insure correct, edited work is to either hire an editor, or find a publishing company to bear a bit of the burden. Our stories are worth the sacrifices we have to make to get them ready for publishing.
Amanda -Right, that first work is now a "permanent stain" on your life-long reputation unless you get that fixed quickly enough. All those reviews are out there permanently even if you do revise it a few years later. That's why I think it's so important to fix those issues sooner rather than later.
Lisa
Lisa -Hmmm, wouldn't you want a person who is editing your work to be able to write well? I.e. if I go to learn how to play golf, I want to learn from someone who is a good golf player.
Absolutely you can have poor writers out there, just as you have poor golf players. That's part of the vetting process - to make sure the person you're listening to is providing good advice. That's true for writers, editors, cover designers, marketers, and anybody else you work with.
I think there are two categories of changes here.
First, there is the situation where the author receives feedback from a variety of sources and then implements those changes. I highly encourage this format. The more readers an author gets, the better. Yes, as you mentioned, some of those readers might provide poor advice. They might want sex on every page of a children's novel :). Still, that is part of the vetting process. You figure out whose advice is meaningful in what areas. It might be that the sex-minded author has a fantastic grasp of spelling and her spelling advice is spot on.
Second, if an author is going to physically turn over a draft to someone else to "change" then that needs to be done with an enormous amount of research first. Only someone who has a stellar reputation and a boatload of references should be allowed to do that. I never do that myself. I get back the comments and feedback and then implement them myself. It's my name on the finished book - I want to ensure it's completely what I want it to be.
With the "comment" feature in Word it's exceedingly easy for an editor to thoroughly mark up a document with all proposed changes and then the author can skip through and easily implement the ones that seem appropriate.
Lisa
Yes, I've got my publishers looking over my first book now so hopefully I can get the new copy out soon. My biggest problem is that I didn't know anyone who would read it before I self-published primarily because it was somewhere between PNR and horror and most of my friends and family are male.
Lisa wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Another problem I only really realized after my own first novel was out, is that you really can't edit your own work. At least not to release quality. I think many find that out the ..."Yes editors are a sort of neutral party we're less likely to judge for their suggestions.
I think you have a great view Lisa and I completely agree. Sometimes you need that extra pair of eyes. I think you just have to find the right writers to help. Id be one, no question.
I got an e-mail from an author once about a review I wrote (a low star review). I don't usually hear from authors and it was a weird experience. But that experience and this topic got me thinking. I've seen e-mails like hers go awry before although they're usually not as nice as hers was. I'm not an author of a book, but I do write video games (I write stories and I also develop them, but not usually both for the same game) and sometimes one of my teams will get really low reviews. It hurts a bit when it's in the middle of some good ones, but sometimes you work for a really long time on something and you're gearing up for great reviews and it turns out the first thing you hear is "Awful, 0/10" and it's hard to not take that personally. Sometimes people have this need to respond instead of just letting it slide. For a self published author, I think presence and grace is almost equally as important as well written books. I don't know if you can mentor something like this, but I think it's important for a self published author over someone who goes through a professional publisher to consider their audience. I mean really consider whether or not to write to them, how to thank them for being supportive, how to extend friendships towards them, or learning how to accept reviews that are less than stellar. I mean, not all people are compassionate and it's important to learn to let go of small injustices. You look better in the long run and people start really respecting you.
Plus as it turns out, in video games people tend to ignore the 15 to 20 obligatory reviews that are just "tihs gaem sux HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE" and I'm pretty sure for books, reviews aren't that badly written or spammy... uh... are they?
Sometimes reviews can appear spammy. I love reviews and reading them. Even bad reviews can give you insight into what works and what doesnt. Reviews can also be a challenge.When I first received reviews, I disliked bad ones. But i've come to realize that reviews are a mixed bag. Sometimes good and sometimes not, and sometimes just plain strange. But every review is better than no review.
Lisa wrote: "I've been immensely enjoying the conversation in another thread on the topic of why many people DON'T read self-published works. I tend to be a person who focuses on "fix the problem" rather than "..."The problem wouldn't exist if we didn't have an open marketplace. But we do, and its one that profits greatly from people cheating. So there is no solution, unless the sites that allow review cheating change their systems.
That's not something the individual writers are going to affect. We can, as you say, improve on the other end of the spectrum. But by my take, most of the serious grammatical errors and writing flow issues wouldn't be there if the market were more limited in the first place. In other words, if you took away their ability to vote for their own books via ghosted IP addresses and phony accounts formed with VISA debit cards, they'd probably stop writing; if they wanted to be writers, they'd have started long before the serious profit motive kicked in.
I think it also helps when any writer has worked with a staff editor in the past. This could have been for a school paper or magazine or blog - just a place where their work is objectively crunched. Most new writers in any field need a bit of screw-tightening. It's like good exercise -- makes you stronger, more flexible, more confident, and definitely more attractive to publishers.
Education and support are key. Those of us who've been around the block need to be shouting from the mountaintops:1. No self-respecting writer edits his/her own work;
2. When hiring editors and formatters, you get what you pay for;
3. DON'T RUSH IT!
One of the biggest problems is the volume of people self-publishing their debut books. Most writers who've written at least a million words will tell you how much their craft has improved since book one (and it's usually by leaps and bounds). We all feel proud about getting that first novel finished, but most of us are too inexperienced at that point to understand that first novel is probably very poorly written. People might be born with talent, but no one is born with skill. In other words, there are things all writers, no matter how talented, must learn simply by practicing, getting critiqued, and studying the art ("show," don't "tell," etc.). That takes years.
I'm not sure how to convince novice writers out there how important this issue is, but the self-pub stigma isn't going anywhere until we all find a way to convince them to slow down, be a little more humble about their work, and take advice from people who have enough experience to be offering it.
Gard wrote: "I think it also helps when any writer has worked with a staff editor in the past. This could have been for a school paper or magazine or blog - just a place where their work is objectively crunched..."That is an excellent point. For me, personally, taking critique and advice from small press editors took my ego down a few notches and taught me how to be more objective about others' input.
Lisa wrote: "I think one key idea is that we need to mentor each other. Each of us has talents to share and each of us has things to learn. The more we help each other, the more we all prosper. I know a few a..."
Lisa, I am very excited about this new thread. It is a great idea. I am willing to help an be helped.
Amanda wrote: "Another problem I only really realized after my own first novel was out, is that you really can't edit your own work. At least not to release quality..."I wouldn't say that writers can't edit their own work. It's not easy - and should be done after a decent break so the work is no longer fresh in the mind - but it's not impossible. What may be more relevant is that early novels are generally 'practice' works and maybe shouldn't be considered for publication at all.
On quality issues, are people aware of websites like http://awesomeindies.net/?
I just received a review from one of my favorite authors, Piers Anthony. He made a very good point. The big publishers are looking for style over substance. He felt my story was good but my style needed improvement to get picked up by the Trade Pubs. I asked him what could I do to improve my style and he said you really can't teach style it is learned from writing. So I feel that everyone on this thread is on the right track. We have to write and rewrite until we can improve and develop our style.
Ashlee wrote: "I got an e-mail from an author once about a review I wrote (a low star review). I don't usually hear from authors and it was a weird experience. But that experience and this topic got me thinking. ..."I got a 1 star review on By Right of Arms. The reviewer made comments like "The sentences don't mesh very well at all. It's like each is separate from those in front of and following." He also made a comment about my use of the term "Space Marines" making a comment about it not being the 50's. He made a very wise comment about using the look inside function on Amazon. Of he had he would have learned the book wasn't for him instead of axing it with a bad review.
I say all this to bring a point. No matter how good a book is people will say bad things about it. Deal with it. The last thing you want is to comment on a review, good or bad. An author, especially a SPA, has to keep a professional bearing. I don't see many experienced authors commenting on reviews.
Lisa wrote: "Right, that first work is now a "permanent stain" on your life-long reputation unless you get that fixed quickly enough. All those reviews are out there permanently even if you do revise it a few years later. That's why I think it's so important to fix those issues sooner rather than later."Are those reviews REALLY "out there permanently?" Don't they vanish if the book is taken off Amazon and then reloaded? I'm not asking because I want to get rid of bad reviews. I'm asking because I want to KEEP good ones. By a stroke of enormous good fortune, I was able to purchase back from my publisher the rights to all six of my novels. The publisher says he cannot simply "transfer" the books from the publishing company's Amazon KDP account and Amazon Advantage account to mine. He says he must take them down and then I reload them in my accounts--and that when he takes them down all the reviews will VANISH!! I have close to 100 reviews, averaging 4.5 stars and they'll all be gone in a puff of smoke. When I re-load the books, it will look like nobody has ever read a word I've written! I have asked Amazon about the reviews but have gotten no answer to my question. Other writers have told me I'll lose the ebook reviews for sure--which is where most of the reviews are--but will keep the hard copy ones. Then I read Lisa's comment about reviews being permanent and I don't get it!!!
Steph wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Another problem I only really realized after my own first novel was out, is that you really can't edit your own work. At least not to release quality..."I wouldn't say that writers..."
I believe the quote is "Shouldn't be edited by the author." The reason is as the author you know everything about the story. Your brain will insert missing words and correct typos without you even knowing. Plus if you didn't know the proper grammar and style then why would you know it now? I realize professional editors are expensive. But they are a necessary cost of producing a professional grade book. People will say "the editor doesn't know anything about my book." That is the very point. An editor needs to know nothing about the book to edit it. It is your job as the author to know the plot and to make sure the changes do not change the plot.
Now there are two main types of editors: copy-editors and story editors.
The copy editor's job is to keep you from looking like an illiterate moron. They correct spelling, grammar, style, and other typographical issues. They check sentence structure and make sure all of your sentence fragments and comma splices are removed. They make sure that your writing matches with common writing references such as the Chicago Manual of style and your spelling corresponds to dictionaries such as the Miriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary.
Story editors consult on your plot and story structure. They give advice on possible plot holes, POV problems, and other problems with the story's structure.
Without reviewing changes, either type of editor could change the entire meaning of your prose without meaning to. So even though you use these resources, you must be the final judge as to what changes are actually made.
There are lots of ways to help serious self-published authors, each other, and ourselves. There are a lot of pitfalls currently out there though. There are currently three links I will suggest people look at if they want to seriously take on the task of self-publishing. www.writerbeware.com - An offshoot from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. A good place to look up editors, agents, and small presses to make sure you're not just being taken advantage of. With the current SP boom, there are a lot of con-artists popping up claiming the qualifications of editors and agents. Many are hack jobs looking for a quick buck, some mean well, but think they have qualifications just because they worked in a library at some point. None of them will help you make your book publish-ready.
http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/ The Newbie's Guide to Publishing. Konrath is one of THE premier flag bearers for the self-publishing movement as far as I'm concerned, and he constantly posts information, ideas, and opportunities for emerging self-published authors.
http://robertleebrewer.blogspot.com/2... Robert Lee Brewer is a poet and a constant over at Writer's Digest, but back in 2012 he ran a series on his blog about how to set up an author platform in 30 days. If you want to get your name out there I don't think there is a better list of things you can do and how to do them than what he posted up.
Of course, these things will only help you if you are SERIOUS about being an author. One of the problems I've noticed is that many people are just looking for a quick buck, and don't honestly care enough to put in the work to publish real, quality writing. Nothing we do is going to help these people or stop them from staining the reputation of self-published writers.
I think an important factor in the deluge of crap is, as stated in the first post by Lisa, that self-publishing allows writers to publish their book prematurely.Writing down a story is only the beginning. The rough draft has to be critiqued by unbiased strangers with the aim to improve the quality. Writers have to realize that creating a story is different from shaping the story into a book, which requires an editorial eye that spots the flaws and either excises them or fixes them.
Many writers should go 'back to school'. Learn proper grammar and spelling, learn the fundamental basics of storytelling, subject their work to critics who will show them where they need to improve.
Not everyone who can hold a knife can wield a knife. And some might become surgeons while others will stay butchers, but even butchers need to know what they're doing or they'll spoil the meat.
The ability to string words together in more or less coherent sentences doesn't make someone a professional writer. Writing is a craft as well as an art. If you don't understand the craft, the art will suffer.
Henry wrote: "Reviews will stay up for a while, even though the title shows unavailable or out of print/limited availability. If you upload with exactly the same title, Amazon can then link your two editions a..."
THANKS!
I really believe this conversation is earnest but is missing the point of how Amazon operates. Most of the people cranking out self-pub'd fiction are doing it to take advantage of the review system. They're not doing it because they love to write. So trying to get them to improve with advice like "hire an editor" and "practice your craft" is completely lost on them.
Many of those I've encountered don't care about the content of their books, they just want to trick you into plunking down somewhere between .99 cents and three bucks. Many of them know how to use both good AND bad reviews to trick Amazon's algorithm into showing their book more often, and they use sock puppets and (more often now) hired reviewers to leave both types of scores, because based on the reviewer's credibility rating, even a bad score can get you good viewing position.
I sold about 10,000 books on Amazon last year, and gave away another 5,000 for promos. Plus, one of my series has been on the best-seller list in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. And yet, I have fewer reviews for those books after three years than most of the indies. That should tell you how messed up that review system really is.
Given that studies show one in 1,000 people leave a legitimate review, people need to realize that anyone with hundreds of reviews per book is cheating. Period. All of them. Period. When Stephen Leather talks about "having conversations with himself" online via sock puppets, he's trying to admit to cheating without actually admitting he's cheating.
NOBODY gets thousands of reviews legitimately. And no indie gets hundreds per book without a) giving the book away for at least two years b) constantly soliciting from "the big list" of Amazon top reviewers, and c) selling a lot of copies, to boot.
To get 102 reviews for "Buried in Benidorm", I had to give away about 50,000 copies in its first year, AND solicit them non-stop. TO get to 55 for "Quinn Checks In" took being on the best-seller list for three months and reaching Amazon's #39 ranking world-wide for mystery sales, ahead of some very famous names. And even then, without cheating, it only lasted a few months.
The discussion people are having is nice but should best be phrased as "how do we help people who are earnest about being better writers?" Because trying to fix self-pub'ing through better editing and craftsmanship is like trying to fix a rowboat that's sinking by ignoring the big hole in the bottom and taking navigation lessons instead.
The most obvious thing to do is to republish your book once you have gained some experience writing. I am a better writer now than I was in 2008. My writing reflects that. My first book has been reedited and republished three times. The best feedback I get is when someone takes the time to point out a grammatical error. Some of us are born storytellers, but none of us are born writers.
Ashlee wrote: "I got an e-mail from an author once about a review I wrote (a low star review). I don't usually hear from authors and it was a weird experience. But that experience and this topic got me thinking. ..."I got a 1 star review once from someone who could not possibly have read the book - the review was posted the same day I put the book up here on Goodreads, which happened to be the same day the book was published. The review came in before the first book was sold. I can only assume I got a 1 because the reviewer was offended by the word "Bisexual" in the title. I wrote the gentleman a nice letter asking him to help me improve my writing by explaining the 1. As you would expect, I never got a response from him.
I am currently in this quandary. When I first published, I could not afford professional editing and I only had limited time between jobs to create my titles. Now my financial situation has improved, but if I re-edit (edit properly I mean) will I get a return on book sales? I may have a better product but will it make a difference in number of readers or reviews let alone sales to recover the cost of the editing?From those that have read my book I have had positive reviews, those that don't like my grammar, sentences etc. leave a one star and go elsewhere. Their reviews knock down my overall rating and probably/possibly dissuade others but do they? If I had spent all the money up front would I have sold more books, had more readers or got better reviews for the actual stories?
I am learning on the job but writing is not my full time job and there are very few authors where it is. The self-pub market is dominated by the free, 99c and then up to $4.99 levels. There are almost zero self pub books selling above that level as has been pointed out before a kindle book is expected to be cheaper than a coffee. Where a return on the professional investment needed for editing, cover art, marketing requires pay back it is more likely to result in a charitable give away and that's before my time is paid for. Even traditional publishers are pitching Kindle books at that price just to compete.
Don't get me wrong I want to improve my quality and I take the one-stars to heart, I shall invest but I do not expect a return in sales. Would the one-stars take the review back if they had an updated copy, Kindle versions can be updated for free. Will they look at my next book more favourably or do I just have to accept that I have lost a few individuals from the billions out there?
My quandary still exists.
Philip wrote: "I am currently in this quandary. When I first published, I could not afford professional editing and I only had limited time between jobs to create my titles. Now my financial situation has impro..."Your quandry is the same as that of every self-pub. It costs money to publish a book; most aren't guaranteed to make any money, so that investment is usually a shot in the dark. Whereas, if you do it all yourself, you alienate a few up front, but if your writing is good enough, you perhaps survive that and build some readerships.
I wish I could say that having paid for professional help upfront would have improved my sales; but I don't believe that's true. Even with some heavy typos in my first book, it has sold pretty well because people like the story and because I gave it away for free for a year to help build a following.
The reality is that even if you get a few dozen good reviews, you will likely sell a handful of books a month. So any investment will also take months to earn back.
Having said that, good covers make a lot of difference in sales. It's the one area where, if you can't do it yourself (and most of us can't) you should hire someone. If you're on a tight budget, look up a guy named Damon (his site is Damonza.com or something; search "damonza" and you should find it). His covers are some of the best in the business and he has a whole page of pre-made "bargain" covers that fit tons of genres and styles.
AS for proofing, for God's sake don't pay for it if you don't expect it back. There are plenty of proofers on Goodreads and other sites who will volunteer to help you in order to get the experience, just as you're getting the initial experience of being a fiction author.
Editing is another matter. If others read your book (not family and friends, who often can't be honest) and find it doesn't flow well or connect, you've got a serious problem and need to get pro help. But at least test market it first, again perhaps to Goodreads readers and writers, to see if you need the help.
L.H. wrote: "Philip wrote: "I am currently in this quandary. When I first published, I could not afford professional editing and I only had limited time between jobs to create my titles. Now my financial situ..."Thanks for the comments, I shall take a long hard think about likely returns.
I don't view this as "I pay in X amount and expect to see it paid back in Y months." If you want to be an author, this is a long term investment. If it helps, think of it as starting your own business, because that's practically what it is. Most businesses run in the red for between two to five years before they actually turn a profit. Can editing, proofing, and cover art be expensive? Yes, it can be, but it is an investment which should be made if one is honestly serious about trying to be an author.
Lisa thank you so much for such an unselfish topic. I'm enjoying this topic and will have to agree with everyone's opinions and problems. When I first self published, I did so blindly to the world of what it took. All of it. I learned most on Goodreads and blogs that were willing to point out serious issues with the "self publishing system." I can't change the system or its flaws. But I can change myself as an aspiring author or writer. I WANT to improve and I want to share my love of words with the world. I enjoy it too much to worry about the cost of a great cover artist, a creditable editor and reviews, or the time it takes to research how to improve the craft of writing. I just do it with the hopes that it will all fall into place. I will say I've been pleased with my handful of reviews I've recieved on Amazon and here on GoodReads and the sales have been greatly appreciated. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If I have just one stranger to write for, that enjoys my writing, then I have a reason to write. One reviewer on Amazon made it known that they were a fan and it encouraged me to invest in my hobby more. Since then I have searched for reputable editors, learning how to find the right one and a great cover artist and I am already working on getting my series reworked and new covers for my books. I think we're missing the big picture here. Once your book is out there, it's there forever. It may take two, three, or five years for your book to make the dent you wanted but it will happen. Stay positive and focused, love what you do, and let eveything else run its course.
Forgive me if I misspelled anything. I looked this over four times before I posted and found a mistake each time:)
Shaun wrote: "I don't view this as "I pay in X amount and expect to see it paid back in Y months." If you want to be an author, this is a long term investment. If it helps, think of it as starting your own busin..."Thanks Shaun I understand that but it is more than one book and a significant sum involved, which could go on other things that my family needs. To invest this way without a return (not in anyway guaranteed by the way) is a significant risk and I appreciate that there is no reward without risk to reverse the normal expression.
I may become a better writer by engaging with an editor, but they will still charge per word read not per word changed, so my cost does not come down unless I write less. If when I retire I have fewer financial commitments I may be better placed to take the risks, but fully edited works from professional publishers still do not always have adequate sales.
I have heard other ideas passed around for editors, though I haven't looked into any of them myself. 1. Look online or at local libraries to see if there are writer's or critique groups which meet regularly. Many groups go over works in progress for feedback.
2. Check with local colleges and universities. I've heard it suggested that some English programs will allow authors to submit their works to students who are going for English degrees, to work on for their final project. If true and possible, not only are you getting it edited by someone who is taking the craft seriously, but their instructor will probably be going over it as well.
3. Some editors are willing to take "tit for tat". In other words, you can come to an agreement where you trade services rather than money.
Amanda wrote: "Yes, I've got my publishers looking over my first book now so hopefully I can get the new copy out soon. My biggest problem is that I didn't know anyone who would read it before I self-published pr..."Amanda -
I would recommend against relying on family and friends, even if they are interested in your genre. They are often unwilling to do anything besides say "it's perfect! You are so brilliant!" While that is good for the ego, it's bad for the book :).
I always highly recommend forming a writing group of good quality writers who know the genre. It's easy enough to do that on the web. That way the people you get feedback know how to write, know the genre, and can offer intelligent feedback. Also, they're less likely to hide issues from you.
Lisa
L.H. wrote: "The problem wouldn't exist if we didn't have an open marketplace. But we do, and its one that profits greatly from people cheating. ... In other words, if you took away their ability to vote for their own books via ghosted IP addresses and phony accounts formed with VISA debit cards, they'd probably stop writing; if they wanted to be writers, they'd have started long before the serious profit motive kicked in."L. H. -
I gently disagree. I've worked with many writers over the years and most aren't cheating. They are writing "the best they can" because they feel they have a story to share and well-meaning family and friends have encouraged them. They often have put years of their life into this project. They then expect a shower of gold stars to fall on them when they're done.
These books get five-stars from family and friends - and few other people care enough to leave reviews. That leaves a work live in the system which is poorly written but peppered with glowing reviews.
It's not that it's cheating - but it's not an accurate reflection of the real world status of that book, either.
Part of what exacerbates this issue is that many readers here on GoodReads talk about how they won't leave low-star reviews on self-published books. They don't want to hurt that author's feelings. However, because they aren't warning away potential readers, those readers buy the books, cringe at the writing, and then get turned off reading ANY self-published book going forward.
Lisa
Ninie wrote: " By a stroke of enormous good fortune, I was able to purchase back from my publisher the rights to all six of my novels. The publisher says he cannot simply "transfer" the books from the publishing company's Amazon KDP account and Amazon Advantage account to mine. He says he must take them down and then I reload them in my accounts--and that when he takes them down all the reviews will VANISH!!"Ninie -
There are two separate issues here.
First, the issue of web permanence. Even if a given page on the web is deleted, there are so many archive and backup and other sites which have copied the data that that content rarely is "gone".
Back in the ancient days of the web (mid-90s), I used to write for GeoCities, a community website. That site shut down eventually. However, all that content can still be found copied and distributed all over the web.
So a book which earns poor reviews can't "start fresh" unless it is reborn completely new with a new title and new author name.
The other issue, which is separate, is the idea of what happens to a book that goes out of print. I'm actually in this situation myself. Like you, I had books with a publisher. In my case, the publisher went out of business, so they turned my three books (a non-fiction series on weddings and courtships traditions in Ireland, Italy, and France) back over to me. However, the Amazon entries for the books are still, of course, in the publisher's name. I don't have access to them.
Books don't get deleted out of Amazon - they simply go out of print. People can still buy and sell used copies of those books on those entries. So those three books are still "live" on Amazon. Used copies of my Ireland book are now going for $4200 :). Silly price-bots in action.
So what I can do is create FRESH versions of those three books, under my own publishing company name. I can then ask Amazon to link that old version to my new version. You see that all the time with textbooks - you'll be on Organic Chemistry 12th Edition and there'll be a note on that book saying "This is an old version - go here for the latest version" and it links to the new one. So this is something Amazon does all the time. The old version stays in the system - and the new version is clearly marked as the updated edition.
In my case I haven't gotten that far. I'm working on twenty different projects at once and my task for right now is to revamp my four low carb books for the 2014 rush. People seem to go gung-ho with their diets in January and I need my four books to be ready for that. I've only got one of the four reloaded so I'm going to push hard these next few days to get the other three set. And I'm also handing my murder mystery sequel out to my review team today :). But I do have it on my list, for January, to redo my three wedding & courtship books and create the new Amazon entries for them. I'll then have Amazon hook those previous entries to the new one. If you want I can let you know how the process goes, so you can do it with your own books.
Lisa
L.H. wrote: "And no indie gets hundreds per book without a) giving the book away for at least two years b) constantly soliciting from "the big list" of Amazon top reviewers, and c) selling a lot of copies, to boot...."Actually I disagree, and think you are missing the point of this discussion. Are there people gaming the system and buying reviews? Yes, but they are a very small percentage of authors. Readers are not stupid, sock puppet 5 star reviews are as easy to spot as troll 1 stars.
To paint every single indie author as out to game Amazon and either buying or using sock puppet reviews is quite frankly offensive.
My first novel came out in Feb 2013, it has 86 reviews on Amazon, I did NOT pay or solicit a single one. People read my book and took their time to leave a review (good and bad) there was no payment or sock puppets involved. I have a friend who writes romance, she has a novel that has been out for 2 months and has in excess of 300 reviews. Again she did NOT purchase a single one, but her book has moved people to write a review and share their reading experience. Your comments smack of a trad published author who thinks indies are somehow stealing his sales. Perhaps your lack of reviews says something about your readers.
Sock puppet reviews are a tiny problem and is not isolated to indie authors - traditional published authors have been known to game the system on an enormous scale to boost their books up the best seller lists.
J.T. wrote: "I believe the quote is "Shouldn't be edited by the author." The reason is as the author you know everything about the story. Your brain will insert missing words and correct typos without you even knowing..."Hi J.T. I didn't change the quote. The point I was trying to make was that I think it's wrong to to say writers cannot also be editors - it is a skill that can be learned the same as any other (and most of this learning is through reading and analysing the books of others, which is no hardship!). You'll note that I also said it's also important to take a break from the novel before tackling editing, which is something Stephen King advocates in On Writing (a recommended read for all aspiring fiction writers).
I'm not sure what to make of the advice to self-publishers to hire an editor. How do you decide who is good or not? If someone has written something that shows a dire need for editing, will they have the skills to recognise 'good' examples when shopping around? I'm concerned that there will be a lot of not-so-good 'editors' plying for custom who are just out for a quick buck. (It was said that in the Californian gold rush, most of those who struck big were the entrepreneurs selling picks and shovels...)
I'm seriously impressed you received a review from Piers Anthony, by the way! I've really enjoyed what I've read by him in the past.
L.H. wrote: "Given that studies show one in 1,000 people leave a legitimate review, people need to realize that anyone with hundreds of reviews per book is cheating. Period. All of them. Period."What exactly do you mean by 'a legitimate' review'?
Since I ask my readers to leave a review on my books to help me gain more exposure, I've received more than 1:1000 reviews. I sold less than 500 books of Reprobate: A Katla Novel, but I have 13 reviews on Amazon.com alone, whereas, according to the studies you read, I shouldn't even have one.
Granted, I offer free review copies of Reprobate, but that is not 'buying' a review. Professional reviewers never pay for the books they review, so that is a regular business practice. I also used a group on GR to offer free review copies, which is why I have some 28 reviews on GR. Those reviews are all honest and fair reviews, so I don't consider them 'gaming the system'.
I've been kicking these issues around myself for quite a bit of time. The only things that I can come up with are some ideas I just posted in a blog today (and will excerpt below) and by creating a sort of safe digital storytelling cyber-hearth for readers who occasionally write. The latter would be a place where everyone agrees to read someone else's work in exchange for having theirs read, with no obligation beyond that (and no money changing hands, reviews implied, or nothing shown to the public if it's in early stages).That would satisfy those who just want to find readers to share stories with and might have been pushed into publishing among the pros because everyone seems to be funneled in that direction.
The excerpt from the blog that deals with those who ultimately want to market works that are not yet ready for primetime:
"Those who can write a good story aren’t necessarily those who are detail-oriented enough to proofread (especially their own work). They might not have enough distance from the story to edit it, or the design skills to produce a cover, or the savvy to market to the right audience. In truth, a single person who could do all of that is rare indeed, as is an amateur or emerging author who could afford to pay professionals to do what publishing companies did traditionally.
"I’ve seen gorgeous covers on works that seem to be in the very first draft stage. This makes no sense to me. I suspect new writers are often led to spend a lot of money on commissioning striking marketing images by those who have no financial incentive to encourage the writer to develop the story first. And once the money is spent on images and marketing packages, the writers might feel the pressure to charge to try to gain some of it back.
"I’m wondering if it would make things easier if we could standardize on some stages of process without unfairly labeling people themselves? We already categorize things by genre (which is often unhelpful since life is broader than the categories; Bryn Hammond explains it better here: http://amgalant.com/i-hate-genre/). Why not let writers designate new works by covers that are current-status images rather than for marketing to buyers? If I see a description that seems interesting, and there’s a cover image that gives an indication that it’s still in the Draft (i.e., story concept) phase, I’d be far more tolerant of its shortcomings and would offer encouragement where it was due.
"The writer could see how much interest there would be in the story itself and whether to spend more time and money on it or move on to something else. Likewise, there could be a status image for Evolving (i.e., in revision stages), and readers could send in proofreading errors if they’re inclined or questions about areas found to be confusing. Both stages of work should obviously be offered for free since the readers are spending their own time encouraging the writer in the creative process (alpha and beta testers for you IT folks). The marketing image should be commissioned last, after encouragement by readers and a professional-quality proofreader to ensure that it’s ready. Perhaps the revision readers’ indication in their feedback as to how much they’d be willing to pay for it as it existed at that point would help the author decide if it was ready for marketing and what price to offer it at."
J.T. wrote: "I just received a review from one of my favorite authors, Piers Anthony. He made a very good point. The big publishers are looking for style over substance. He felt my story was good but my style n..."I think you've brought up an important point J.T. Style is something we need to consider first and foremost when we write. Style is what marks us individually as writers. It's not something that can be taught and the more we write, the more we develop our personal style. That's what I look for when I read my favourite authors, it's not the plot, it's the style!
Of course as others have mentioned grammar, spelling and editing should be a given. Without the basics, a novel is merely "a work in progress."
My experience with download versus reviews is the following. I have published eight books at Amazon. Download/Sales are approximations except for Surviving the Fog-Kathy’s Recollections.Book Date Price Dl’s/Sales Reviews
Sam’s Winnings 2009 .99 75 2
Kate’s Movie Star 2010 .99 50 1
Amy’s Hero 2011 .99 25 0
The Colors of Passion and Love 2011 2.99 25 2
Sarah’s Spaceship Adventure 2011 2.99 50 3
Surviving the Fog 2009 Free 180,000 182
Surviving the Fog-Kathy’s Recollections 5/2013 2.99 362 10
What’s In My Shorts? (free promotion) 12/2013 .99 114 1
No reviews were purchased although some books were given away in exchange for reviews. As you can see, the free book, Surviving the Fog has been downloaded and reviewed a lot. There are 190 reviews for Surviving the Fog at B&N, but I have no idea how many downloads have occurred there. There are 33 reviews for the book at Smashwords out of 12,581 downloads. It is clear that readers at Amazon are more likely to review the book than are readers at Smashwords.
There is no way to tell how many of these books exist unread in ereaders, tablets, or computers.
In my experience only about 40% of the people who get a book from one of my Goodreads Giveaways actually review it. I found it especially irritating when someone who got one of my books immediately put it up for sale on Amazon as "New".IMHO Goodreads should block someone like that from future Giveaways.
While the emphasis on quality here is useful, I think it's also secondary if the real issue is, as Lisa puts in the first graf of the first post, "why many people DON'T read self-published works."If you can't find the book, you won't know whether it's any good.
In my view, the problem posed by indie publishing is not that there are many thousands of not-ready-for-prime-time books out there. The problem is that there are over a million new titles a year, good and bad, mostly written by unknown quantities. How does a reader choose?
We forget that trad publishing has no shortage of its own dross. However, trad publishing also has its own discovery mechanism already in place: the bookstore, which is an exercise in limiting choice (otherwise known as curation). If the dross happens to be written by a celebrity or a mega-author, it also gets the kind of promotion that's available only to trad publishing right now.
Does discoverability equal reviews? Probably not the way things are now. How will people know your book got good reviews? Indies don't get mentioned in the mass media and don't get picked for Oprah's Book Club. Indies get a hodgepodge of lightly-traveled review websites that are completely inundated by new titles and take six months to turn around a review, if they do it at all. Have any of you bought a review from Kirkus? Did it have any effect on your sales?
Some people in this (and the original) discussion have said that people read a bad indie book and decide to never buy another one. I'm not so convinced by that. I've read a number of bad trad-published books, and while I'll avoid those authors in the future, I haven't stopped buying Big 5 books. Also, "bad" is in the eyes of the beholder. People will read "bad" books they enjoy; my mother used to love the Longarm series, which was dreadful. Even if we somehow manage to raise the quality of all indie books to starred-Kirkus-review level, would it help our sales any? I'm skeptical -- I suspect potential readers would still be like Robin Williams in the grocery-store coffee aisle in Moscow on the Hudson (apologies for the ad).
Yes, aspiring authors should learn their craft, join critique groups, get their works edited, buy nice covers, all of that. But that really doesn't solve the overarching problem. We have no discoverability mechanism of our own, and trad pub won't let us use theirs. Let's not blame each other for a systemic failing.
Lance wrote: "While the emphasis on quality here is useful, I think it's also secondary if the real issue is, as Lisa puts in the first graf of the first post, "why many people DON'T read self-published works."..."
Good points Lance, the whole industry is in transition and as others on different discussions have printed out the Trad Pub was a major change to the way books were produced prior to the 20th century as was the printing press to monks copying. The one million books a year impacts all forms of publishing just as the digital camera has impacted photo film and downloadable MP3s made in bedrooms has impacted the music business.
Soon there will be a realignment (Amazon have already done it to the traditional book stores and sales. The Kindle and it's like have already made huge inroads into physical copies, not necessarily in reducing paperback sales but in widening the market. That means more books read around the world - surely a good thing in the age of video games and mass media.
If a review helps great if there is no review then there is the blurb and cover or a a piece of luck such as a free download. If the free download leads to reviews even bette. If the cheaper sales price of an ebook leads to reviews great. If there are ratings but no reviews then its a start. My New Year Resolution was to stop worrying about reviews or sale and just write more, its high time I followed it!
.. My New Year Resolution was to stop worrying about reviews or sale and just write more, its high time I followed it!"You're right. Writing is an act of creation, and we like to create things. Maybe people like my books, maybe not. Maybe fifty years from now one of my works will be discovered and enjoyed, maybe not. I still like to write and there are at least some people who enjoy what I write (even if it is only me).
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Books mentioned in this topic
They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)
Reprobate: A Katla Novel (other topics)
Aspen Allegations (other topics)
Reprobate: A Katla Novel (other topics)
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I think it's clear from the many posts in the other thread that a key reason large swaths of readers avoid self-published works is that those works weren't ready for publication :). The author published the work when it was riddled with typos, grammatical errors, cardboard characters, nonsensical plots, and other issues.
Related to that is the problem that many of these works get 5 star reviews on Amazon from fanboys. That then lures others into buying the books and then their brains melt when they encounter the writing.
So, how do we fix this situation? The "publishing house world" already has the editorial staff and gatekeeping set up to handle many of these issues. We in the self-publishing world have our community. If we can leverage it, we should be able to easily compete. It's just a matter of mapping out some ideas.
Lisa