Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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How to Help Self-Published Authors and Raise the Quality Bar
L.H. wrote: "I really believe this conversation is earnest but is missing the point of how Amazon operates. Most of the people cranking out self-pub'd fiction are doing it to take advantage of the review syst..."
I am so naive. I had never heard of sock puppets. Are these alter egos of the author? Not that I plan to do it, I just never heard of it. I've been quietly expecting real people who bought my book to review it. Which may be why I have ONE review on Goodreads and ONE on Amazon.
Lance -Definitely the marketing issue is an enormous one, and maybe that deserves its own thread. It's very true that many self-published authors fail miserably at marketing their novels well. Not only do they do poorly, but often they shoot themselves in the foot and actively harm their own chances of success.
However, that wasn't my intention in what I wrote :). I wasn't addressing the issue of books which can't be found at all. I was addressing the issue of readers who actively refuse to buy or read self-published books. These are the readers who DO find the books, see it's self-published, and turn away.
From my readings on GoodReads and elsewhere there are many, many readers who fall into this category.
Lisa
Amber -Building a healthy review base is a key part of a marketing campaign for a book. It's necessary for sales. If you're not doing that right now, then maybe I should start that other thread on things a SPA should be doing once their book is live :).
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "Amber -Building a healthy review base is a key part of a marketing campaign for a book. It's necessary for sales. If you're not doing that right now, then maybe I should start that other thread o..."
Lisa - that would be great!
@Richard, thank you. That's incredibly kind.Maybe it's because I'm new to goodreads in particular and social reading sites in general, I have a compulsion to look at the profile page of everyone who has commented so far, browse through their book listings (not in a stalking kind of way, I hope), and add some to my reading queue.
And since I have to work for a living (sigh) and do the laundry and a thousand other things besides not read whenever I want to, I might refer some out to a fellow fairy godreader. Writers need readers and readers need writers and we all need more time.
Happy New Year!
Steph wrote: "J.T. wrote: "I believe the quote is "Shouldn't be edited by the author." The reason is as the author you know everything about the story. Your brain will insert missing words and correct typos with..."A.W. wrote: "L.H. wrote: "And no indie gets hundreds per book without a) giving the book away for at least two years b) constantly soliciting from "the big list" of Amazon top reviewers, and c) selling a lot of..."
I stand corrected. I stand by with the shouldn't though the author is too invested in the work. I am not saying don't edit yourself but do not make yourself the only editor.
Yeah I was excited that he was willing to. I will post the newsletter addy when he posts the new issue.
Ok everyone, Piers posted the newsletter today.http://www.hipiers.com/newsletter.html
I am now bared to the world.
Dear J.T. -I agree completely that an author should not be the *only* editor of his or her book. Certainly the author should do a focused effort to edit the book as much as possible. But there will come a point where outside help is necessary, to get remaining issues worked out.
Lisa
Ron wrote: "Ashlee wrote: "I got an e-mail from an author once about a review I wrote (a low star review). I don't usually hear from authors and it was a weird experience. But that experience and this topic go..."I've sent messages to some reviewers before, admittedly they were people who received giveaway copies and actually did post a review. One such person felt bad they gave me less than 5 but I put her at ease explaining that I was just grateful for her leaving a review no matter what, never mind taking the time to read my book. The messages I have sent have been along those lines, just thanking them for taking the time to read and subsequently review my work at all. I thank them for sharing their feedback with me and others and that's that.
I also had a rating go up once - no review - that didn't quite fit because no copies of my book had been sold and I had yet to give any away. It was a 1 so I went ahead - very kind, very respectful - and sent the person an e-mail thanking them and taking the chance of saying hey, was that a mistake? I also offered to send this person a free copy of my book if in fact it was a mistake but they were still interested in reading my book (it was on their to-read shelf). Shortly there after they replied to my message stating that the rating had in fact been a mistake but they were still interested in receiving the book. So I sent their copy and thanked them. While I've not received a review from them I am glad to have even had the chance to communicate with them, share my work, and have it all go smoothly. Reviews are not the job of the reader, it's a favor they provide us all. That person owes me nothing.
Had they not replied and left the 1* up then that would have been the end of that, I understand that's the way the game is played. I took a chance I felt was right and I was courteous just as I have been in my other messages. It's nice to have an opportunity to connect with readers although this doesn't mean I will be sending messages to every reviewer.
Even the most famous of people - actors, writers, singers, artists - have to live with poor reviews and wicked comments. We are humans, and we are often wicked, just as people jump at the chance for attention people jump at the chance to tear someone else down.
Tying this in to the original post I'll share that as a self-published poet now I am much more aware and conscious of picking other self-published authors because I want to contribute tot he pond that I am in so-to-speak. And I think this is a good way that we can help each other by making a point to read other SPAs that we find talented. Poetry for one is not a very popular genre so for me it's that much more important that I do reach out to and/or pick up the work of other authors whose work suits my interests.
L.H. wrote: "I really believe this conversation is earnest but is missing the point of how Amazon operates.
Most of the people cranking out self-pub'd fiction are doing it to take advantage of the review syst..."
I understand very well where you're coming from with this comment however I must say that it's almost too obvious. The more serious authors among us, and out there, aren't going to be on these sites and forums trying to learn how to gain and earn more readers. People tend to weed themselves out eventually. I think sometimes it's the rest of us giving too much of our attention to their poor writing and lack of sincerity that perpetuates the problem(s). I think writing has become a more available craft these days for the phonies much like music has for a VERY long time. The talentless, careless, arrogant artists will always be out there because attention is available to them somewhere. And in this age - where the internet is God - people can find a pedestal to crawl up on to everywhere . Look at FB, that's a great venue for the know-it-alls and the wanna-be-but-not-really-cuz-all-I-want-to-do-is-talk people. I mean really, people post any and everything because they believe they have a real audience. So really, I believe this discussion we're having here speaks to and past the less than serious, less than genuine, less than committed, less than sincere, etc.
And hey, there are going to be converts as well, those people who only wanted to cheat the system as you describe but ultimately come to respect what this is all about. All the more reason to appreciate these threads and the opportunities they provide for us to learn and support each other in order to help the serious writers rise above the detritus! ;-)
Shaun wrote: "There are lots of ways to help serious self-published authors, each other, and ourselves. There are a lot of pitfalls currently out there though. There are currently three links I will suggest peop..."
Thank you for sharing these links! Resources are definitely important, especially internet and community-based, as they are doors and windows to other opportunities, colleagues, mentors, etc. There's also A LOT out there, as many of us already know, to be navigated therefore sharing our experiences with each other about helpful books, websites, publications, people and whether or not they were/are useful is a great way to help each other. In a different thread another author told me about several author/reader websites they were a part of, I joined, and have since received a number of hits on my websites from visitors referred by at least one of these sites.
Specifically, such sites are World Literary Café, Savvy Authors, Library Thing, booktalk.org, Shelfari. Goodreads is by far the most active I've encountered thus far but I think it's important for authors to be out there all over the place increasing our chances of being seen. In addition, I recommend the book "The Complete Guide to Self-Publishing" by Marilyn Ross & Sue Collier: http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Gu...
I would also recommend subscribing to Poets & Writers, Writer's Digest, and publications that pertain to your genre. There's also ALLi, the Alliance of Independent Authors which has a lot of great resources and is a group on GR as well.
Cheers & Good Luck (I'm sure I'll be back with more! ;-) )
eLPy
author of "That Which Lives Within"
www.littlefacepublications.com
I am currently writing my first novel. I hope to have it published on Amazon for Kindle. To make sure that my novel is free from some of the errors discussed on previous forums ...I have rechecked my historical research. Not only in fact, but of language. I also have beta readers BEFORE I publish.
I do hope those methods work for me and my genre of writing...Historical Romance.
Vanessa wrote: "I am currently writing my first novel. I hope to have it published on Amazon for Kindle. To make sure that my novel is free from some of the errors discussed on previous forums ...I have rechec..."
Good luck to you, Vanessa.
Aww, thank you so much Stan!!!!!
Vanessa wrote: "I am currently writing my first novel. I hope to have it published on Amazon for Kindle. To make sure that my novel is free from some of the errors discussed on previous forums ...I have rechec..."
Excellent. I hope these forums can be useful to avoid publishing prematurely. I think you're on the right path.
Lisa wrote: "I would recommend against relying on family and friends, even if they are interested in your genre. They are often unwilling to do anything besides say "it's perfect! You are so brilliant!" While that is good for the ego, it's bad for the book."Mine were impressed with my novel but they still didn't hold back the red-marks. My genre is young adult sci-fi/fantasy. I had my brother and nephew beta-read my novel. One is an ardent sci-fi fan and the other an ardent fantasy fan. Both were well read and were warned to be brutal. I got an honest review. My plot was solid but I needed a little more work on my style. This helped me immensely because I then bedded down my style.
I believe it is a prerequisite that a self-published author must be able to write well, i.e. have good style and be able to plot well. But I believe they also need to be open to criticism. They must demand it. We are writing for the reader and we must ensure the reader can visualize the settings and scenes before them, or adequately fill in the blanks.
I agree with J.T.: with my story, one of my main concerns was that my closeness to the story blinded me such that I failed to describe something that was obvious to me but unclear to a fresh reader. Hence, I questioned my beta-readers about what they thought was unclear; did the characters react consistently with their mannerism; was the resolution of a conflict too convenient etc. Their answers helped me uncover holes. It improved my description and dialogue.
I don't know if my book will be a success. But I gave it my best effort. I am not looking to cheat the system by self-publishing. I have a story to tell and I hope it will entertain others.
Thank you Martin. I do hope greatly that I don't publish a premature novel. It has taken a year so far, to write. the real challenge was the first chapter. I bet I have rewritten it over and over. I decided to have a prologue because I felt it would flow better with the story and my first chapter 1 is now the prologue. The discussions on this forum have helped me better understand how to avoid sp errors.
J.T. wrote: "Ok everyone, Piers posted the newsletter today.http://www.hipiers.com/newsletter.html
I am now bared to the world."
A pretty good write up!
How about being more specific with beta readers? A lot of people just pass on their work and say "Tell me what you think." It would probably be much more helpful to have a list of specifics to send along of things you're concerned about and what to watch for. Things to tell beta readers:
1. Be brutal, tear it up. Remember, you're helping me make this the best it can be. A simple "Good job." and a pat on the back aren't going to help me grow as a writer.
2. If you see a mistake, misspelling, or plot hole, mark it. Scribble all over the page if it's that bad. Those are things I need to know that I need to fix.
3. Are the characters believable? Do you care about what happens to them when the shit hits the fan? If not, what do you think was lacking?
4. Did any part make you stop and go "What?" or "Huh?". Was it confusing or not detailed enough?
5. The scene on page XXX, was it heartbreaking/disturbing/elating?
I think being more specific with beta readers about what you want back from them would go a long way to helping SP authors better their work. It would help them get used to criticism and would probably get much better results than simply asking "What did you think?".
This may sound petty or easy to some but setting a list of small goals or things to look into for your work is a good idea. I cannot tell you how many time I've made a list of creative ways or things to do for promoting only to come up short on them or push them aside. So make the list and see it threw, it makes for actually feeling like you've accomplished something.
Vanessa wrote: "Thank you Martin. I do hope greatly that I don't publish a premature novel. It has taken a year so far, to write. the real challenge was the first chapter. I bet I have rewritten it over and over..."Congrats and good luck with everything Vanessa! Keep us posted on how things go. It definitely seems like using writing/reading communities such as this is a must for promoting, networking, and improving your writing, your statement of course being absolute proof of this. I know I can say talking with other writers and readers here and elsewhere has been helpful in a number of ways, including something as simple as finding distant colleagues & friends. :-)
eLPy
Steph wrote: "J.T. wrote: "Ok everyone, Piers posted the newsletter today.http://www.hipiers.com/newsletter.html
I am now bared to the world."
A pretty good write up!"
I thought it was. Maybe it will suggest to some of his millions of fans to buy it.
Shaun wrote: "How about being more specific with beta readers? A lot of people just pass on their work and say "Tell me what you think." It would probably be much more helpful to have a list of specifics to send..."Funny Shaun that just before I read your post I was thinking something along these exact lines. This is a great idea because it tailors your readers/critics feedback in a way that I would think is useful to the beta-readers as well as the writer. And as you said asking for some specific feedback also helps to avoid feedback that doesn't really tell you much about how you wrote.
While I have been trying my hand at some fiction I'm published at present in poetry so my process overall is a bit different than most people on this thread and even in this group. However I find that this strategy could also work well when producing a poetry book. You could ask your beta-readers what they thought the theme of the book was or what was the overall story. Or you could tell them before they read what your aim and/or goals are with the particular collection you've created. Then when they're finished the question becomes, "did you get that feel/sense as you read?" Beta-readers could also help you arrange and pick the poems you choose to include.
Arranging my poetry was definitely more of an issue than I had originally anticipated. I remember reading an article in Poet's Market about arranging your poems before I had really dug deep into this process. That article helped to prepare me and take the process more seriously. While I didn't use beta-readers with this collection I can see the usefulness in doing so and probably will in my second collection. Just as with a story it's easy to see more in a poem (or less) and more connections within your arrangement than the reader will because you wrote the poems. But at the same time I will add that you don't always want your reader to read everything without any questions every time, sometimes poetry asks you to read it again; you want your reader to want to understand.
Lately I've also been thinking about reaching out to more readers beyond the normal circle of poetry. Some of my poems may be abstract or difficult to follow/understand for a non-poetry reader however my book is about self-discovery and reflection for the most part so it is in my best interest to see if I can't find people interested in this topic to give it a chance, thus the beauty of e-books and their lower costs. With regards to this, I think it would help other poets as well to consider reaching an even wider audience than poetry fans. For instance, if your poems are about love than maybe romance fans would be interested. In my case, perhaps people who felt challenged by their reflections and discoveries and/or people going through a reflective period right now will take interest because they can relate. This is after all how we find new genres that we like, right? And I think the same can be said for fiction and non-fiction. What's your main genre, but what else does your story touch on? So why not test some beta-readers who are interested in reading a little bit outside their normal genre? We might just find a much larger market for our work.
Just a few thoughts for now! Take care everyone, good night and Happy New Year!!! :-)
eLPy
I do agree that making it clear to beta readers that they can be ruthless and explicit is a good thing. Often people have had encounters with thin-skinned authors and are hesitant to say anything at all. Let them know that you DO want to hear everything they think. You never know what important issue they will bring up. Yes, you might not agree with everything they say, and that's OK. You still want to hear it.That's also why it's important to have more than just one or two readers. The more points of view you get, the more likely you are to catch issues that different groups of readers might encounter. We're all different, and that's good. Certainly you won't please everyone. But you don't want to upset an entire group of people for something that's easy to fix.
Lisa
Let's see if I can post this sample of how my book gets edited by just one of my team members:
Lisa
ok there we go, that worked. That's just one of my editors, working on my first murder mystery novel. She gives all sorts of ideas about word use, phrasing, character development, and story progression. It helps immensely with ensuring the book is just right when it finally gets published.Lisa
Here is a link for all indie authors:http://jmgregoirebooks.com/2014/01/03...
Words of wisdom, folks!
Brenda
Lisa wrote: "ok there we go, that worked. That's just one of my editors, working on my first murder mystery novel. She gives all sorts of ideas about word use, phrasing, character development, and story progres..."By editor, do you mean beta reader? I'm fascinated by authors' use of beta readers over freelance editors. Maybe I'm biased (I'm a freelance editor), but if I were to ever write a novel, I would absolutely hire an editor. I may use a beta reader in addition to an editor because I'd be curious and hungry for ANY input, but I wouldn't use a beta reader exclusively. Doing so seems too risky.
This thread's focus is about "raising the bar." Hiring a credentialed, trustworthy editor would be a start.
I'm curious: is it a standard practice in the world of beta readers to use hard copies and ink pens? I must admit, your picture shocked me. I didn't know anyone edited like that still!
Richard wrote: "@Brenda... Awesome blog posting, that one. I love the first big bold-face point..."Yeah, that was a good post.
Brenda wrote: "Here is a link for all indie authors:http://jmgregoirebooks.com/2014/01/03...
Words of wisdom, folks!
Brenda"
Just tweeted it. 100% truth!
Lisa wrote: "ok there we go, that worked. That's just one of my editors, working on my first murder mystery novel. She gives all sorts of ideas about word use, phrasing, character development, and story progres..."Yeah mine came back from the copy-editor bleeding. I didn't realize how out of date my Chicago Manual of Style was.
But got a new one for my birthday.
Shaun wrote: "How about being more specific with beta readers? A lot of people just pass on their work and say "Tell me what you think." It would probably be much more helpful to have a list of specifics to send..."That's it Shaun. That's exactly the approach I took with my beta-readers and I received valuable feedback.
Heather, I engaged a professional editor to do a test edit of the first few pages of my novel. Although there were a few reasonable comments, many had been picked up by my beta-readers. The other thing was the price tag: it was far too much for my first novel. I'm a reasonably good writer, and so were my beat-readers. I believe having an editor was not as critical. However, once my name is established I would seriously consider adding an editor to my team.
Engaging an editor is really a chicken and egg situation: cost versus value. I think beginning self-published novelists must learn their craft before first publishing and get themselves good beta-readers.
I'm a self published author. I personally take this sort of statement as an offense. Seriously, no matter the publisher, it's all the same! A book is a book, no matter what. And ifs one self published books tend to be not as good as normally published books, that doesn't mean that all are!
Slide up this page to message 78. Click on that link. Read that page! Then come back here and finish reading this post.Consider what you want out of your writing. Do you just want a paper book to hold in your hand? Then go to Cafe Press, or even your local Kinko's. Do you want fame and fortune? Go to Hollywood, your odds are better. Do you want artistic satisfaction? Excellent, but accept that that might be all you ever get.
Ah, you say -- I want readers! Well! Then you have to meet the readers' needs. Punctuation, spelling, coherence, these are all things that readers demand as a matter of course. Plot, character, organization, common sense -- yes, there are popular books without these things, but not many. You are now working to meet a market. That's a different thing. (Go up to post 78. It tells you all about it.)
Although punctuation, spelling, coherence, plot, character development, and common sense are important it is also important to recognize that society is moving toward a self publishing model, because that model lowers costs for everyone. It is certainly true that some readers demand competence, but anyone who spends any time at social media sites will see that there are many readers who don't know the difference. For them it is strictly a matter of the imagery developed by the writer. I just finished Nora Roberts' latest romance. I found two obvious errors. The book was very entertaining, and I can't remember the errors. I'm sure there are those who will.
Emma wrote: "I'm a self published author. I personally take this sort of statement as an offense. Seriously, no matter the publisher, it's all the same! A book is a book, no matter what. And ifs one self publi..."Emma, not all books are created equal, especially in the general reading public's eyes. The general reading public sees Self-published books as substandard quality because they "couldn't get a real publisher" many people do not realize that 1) only 1 in 10,000 books submitted to the big 6/5 get a contract and fewer than those are ever published. 2) many of us chose to self-publish.
But there is a large amount of dross out there perpetuating the myth that all self-pubs are crap. We as self-pubs need to try to bust that myth. That is one of the main purposes of this particular thread. We are trying to help raise the bar so that people can find enough well designed, quality self-pubbed books that they begin to see that just because it didn't come from a trad pub doesn't mean it isn't good.
So don't take offense from what is said here. Most of us are self-pubbed authors we are not trying to tear anyone down. As a matter of fact, we try to lift others up. If that means telling someone that they need work on their grammar, spelling, plot development, etc, we are trying to help.
Calvin wrote: "Shaun wrote: "How about being more specific with beta readers? A lot of people just pass on their work and say "Tell me what you think." It would probably be much more helpful to have a list of spe..."That is the thing. Most people do not take the time to learn their craft and to know their quality of writing is poor. The self-pub companies out there are not much help. They say anyone can publish a book. That is true but not everyone can WRITE a book. At least not write a quality book. With Createspace and Lightening Source and all the other PODs and Vanity publishers out there printing anything that comes along as long as the check clears and the eBook production is even worse.
Calvin wrote, "...once my name is established I would seriously consider adding an editor to my team."@Calvin: To each his own, but why wait until you're already established to create a dream team? I understand not investing money when you don't see value, but maybe the editor you chose lacked the skill, experience, insight, or work ethic necessary to maximize your writing. Metaphorically and hypothetically speaking, if I were sick and my doctor couldn't provide a diagnosis or remedy, I'd find another doctor.
Calvin also wrote, "I think beginning self-published novelists must learn their craft before first publishing and get themselves good beta-readers."
@Calvin: Are you implying beta readers are responsible for teaching writers the craft of writing? Yowzers.
Calvin wrote, "The other thing was the price tag: it was far too much for my first novel."
@Calvin: Have you visited the Editorial Freelancers Association website? They provide an industry-based guideline for editorial rates. http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.php "Way too much" is a relative term, but a good editor is worth her weight in gold. Editing is meticulous work and requires an advanced skill set that deserves adequate compensation.
Congratulations on the accomplishment of writing your first novel. I will be interested to see how it's received by your target audience.
Heather wrote: "By editor, do you mean beta reader? I'm fascinated by authors' use of beta readers over freelance editors. Maybe I'm biased (I'm a freelance editor), but if I were to ever write a novel, I would absolutely hire an editor. I may use a beta reader in addition to an editor because I'd be curious and hungry for ANY input, but I wouldn't use a beta reader exclusively. Doing so seems too risky."I use beta-readers, but two of my beta-readers are professional editors who edit my books for free because they are fans of my work. The others are all specialists in certain professional areas (LEO, Federal, firearms, CQC, medical, legal, crime, drugs, etcetera).
Using 'unskilled' beta-readers who just enjoy reading can still be illuminating, but I agree that editors will improve a manuscript beyond the scope of most beta-readers.
Heather wrote: "Are you implying beta readers are responsible for teaching writers the craft of writing? Yowzers."Hi Heather, maybe I was unclear because unfortunately you may have missed my point. I said "beginning self-published novelists must learn their craft before first publishing" i.e. they must become good writers before they publish (attend workshops, write a lot, etc.). But they should also have good beta readers at hand. I was linking to Shaun's comment, that if the beta reader understands the scope of their review, and are themselves good writers, their comments will be valuable. The beta reader is not their teacher. My earlier post talked about the value of the beta reader.
When you asked the question about why self-published authors choose beta-readers, I merely provided one answer: price. At the rates quoted in the link, a proper review could be anything from $1500 to $2500.
However, I'm all for engaging editors. I'm a professional (and technical writing is my skill) and have hired freelance editors a number of times. They are valuable indeed.
I'm curious about what price a new author can expect to pay a good editor?
Can we have some definitions?Beta readers are friends. Usually you do not pay them. You feed them dinner, or buy them beers. You might promise to read their ms some day in return. You hand them the first two chapters and get a raw opinion. With experience you learn to ask them probing questions like, "Do you feel the way I described the heroine is sexist? Do you think dogs really act that way? Did you find the way they met in the bar believable?" And so on, until they beg you to stop.
Editors, you pay. Because of this, you do not want to use them as beta readers and waste $. You want to finish the work so that they can see the thing in its entirety. (If you cannot finish the work, you can never sell it anyway. Nobody will buy a quarter of a novel. Go back to your beta reader, buy her a another drink, and ask her how she feels the thing will end.) Get as much done, and whip the thing into the best shape you can, before paying the editor. There are web sites that tell you what to do, everything from enabling spellcheck so that you can find all the neologisms (and this helps you to find all the places where you misspelled 'lembas' as 'lemmas') to being sure that the weapons technology is consistent throughout.
When you get the editor's comments, read them with care. This is not your drunken beta reader; with luck this is a disinterested professional. Ask her (politely!) to explain what you do not understand. Beg for examples in literature ("What is this unity of which you speak?").
@Emma: If you're offended by the mere title of the post, then I hesitate to think how you'd respond to criticism of your book. Perhaps you were only using the word "offended" as a general term, but the bottom line is that all books are not equal, whether self-published or not. The writers on this thread are determined to make their books as good as possible, using whatever means necessary, including critiques from other authors. There's some terrific, free advice here. As an editor, I'm learning many ways to help the authors I work with, though I'm not an author myself.@Andrea: The price you pay for editing services will depend on many factors. Content/substantive/developmental editing is much like what (good) beta readers can do for you. It's done early on in the writing process. I suspect you're referring to copy editing with your question, though. Prices for copy editors vary, depending on the length of your manuscript and how rough it is. I have a set cost per word, and if the work is exceptional, I'll give a discount. Conversely, if the work ends up being a heavier edit, the cost per word increases slightly.
Most copy editors should provide you with a short sample of their work (typically the first 1000 words of your manuscript), free of charge, so you can see if they're qualified or not. This would also be the time for the editor to tell you whether your work needs a heavier edit or if it's standard fare.
I'd encourage you to shop around, getting referrals (people here on GR are happy to promote their editors if they're happy with them) and getting samples long before you actually need the work done. This way, you have time to budget for it.
Also, if you find editors you'd like to check out, contact their authors to see if they've actually worked with that editor. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I was recently made aware of a post on Twitter where someone was claiming to have "edited" a book for which she only did beta reading. Another editor was listed, and I was the final proofreader on it, so I know this particular person did NOT edit the book. Her post on Twitter was, in her words, "pimping my clients" so she could get new clients. I also know of an author who had her book re-edited because of the bad job done by the first editor, but the first editor still lists that author's books as "her" work. Should someone visit that editor's website, he or she might be under the impression that the finished work is still that of the first editor.
Research will help you find the right editor for you, and it's worth the time to be thorough about it.
Lynda wrote: "I was recently made aware of a post on Twitter where someone was claiming to have "edited" a book for which she only did beta reading. Another editor was listed, and I was the final proofreader on it, so I know this particular person did NOT edit the book."I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that anyone can call themselves 'editor' without legal reprisals.
I think definitions are sometimes mobile which only adds to the confusion for new authors. And editors. Another reason that it's so important to study the craft.
Martyn wrote: "I use beta-readers, but two of my beta-readers are professional editors who edit my books for free because they are fans of my work. The others are all specialists in certain professional areas (LEO, Federal, firearms, CQC, medical, legal, crime, drugs, etcetera)."You're quite lucky to have found trustworthy and well-informed beta readers. How long did it take you to acquire them? Did you have any bad experiences?
One of the topics mentioned in Message 78's link warned of the sharks lurking in the beta-reading world, those who sign up solely to acquire new books or garner sneak previews of books. Often, they don't provide feedback for the book at all. A paid beta reader seems somewhat more trustworthy, especially if they have a website, references, and skill.
Having a certificate or degree doesn't guarantee skill, of course, and I'm sure there are some highly qualified beta readers out there who simply haven't finished the formal education needed to thrive in the editing world. Likewise, some folks have advanced degrees yet still can't figure out affect/effect, its/it's, and perspective/prospective.
Editing, just like writing, is an innate gift made more valuable by education. Good writers and editors can become great through education, but bad editors and writers can only hope to achieve "good" status, or at least, good enough. Talent is talent; it can't be taught, only nurtured.
Andrea wrote: "I'm curious about what price a new author can expect to pay a good editor?"You'll have to do a little math with the specs of your ms, but here is an industry-based guideline for editorial rates: http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.php
I also know of an author who had her book re-edited because of the bad job done by the first editor.75 percent of my new clients experience this unfortunate phenomenon. I do not envy anyone the job of finding a competent, trustworthy editor.
Also, if you find editors you'd like to check out, contact their authors to see if they've actually worked with that editor.
Excellent advice! I believe the link in Message 78 suggests the same practice.
Also, if you find editors you'd like to check out, contact their authors to see if they've actually worked with that editor. Yes, please! Authors do themselves—and the editor—a great disservice by paying to have a manuscript edited when the author hasn't put in 100 percent effort yet. Authors need to self-edit, and self-edit again, before even thinking about sending their manuscripts to an editor.
Consider the effectiveness of stopping by McDonald's and Baskin-Robbins on your way to meeting your trainer for a session. Yeah, you might learn techniques from the trainer, but you'll need to continue investing more money in that trainer to achieve the results you desire until you actively contribute to your own achievement. Just showing up doesn't count!
I guess I am your worst nightmare - and accept that I will now be targeted by those who think a few rotten authors spoil the SP market-space.For me, writing is art, it is a creative outlet. It is a way for me to express myself and share feelings deep inside me. It is a way for me to reach out and connect with other people, even if only a limited number of other people.
I recognize the necessity of good style in writing, but not the necessity of "great" style. I am a story teller. I would much prefer my work be described as a great story from a unique angle with a few technical flaws than a technically perfect book with a lifeless, pointless, or tired story. I can't even imagine finding the motivation to write a book without a good story trying to rip its way out of me and find its way onto paper.
I read and listen to lectures on improving writing skills, but try to keep that knowledge in the back of my mind and never the forefront. I doubt Kerouac our Hemmingway every sat around studying the Chicago Manual of Style (not that I pretend to be anywhere near their level), and even if they did that is still no justification for me to do so.
I experiment. I take chances. I break rules. There are enough cookie-cutter authors out there already. SP is a way for the masses to have their voices heard without going through corporate filters, and those voices with something to say will eventually be heard. If you want to produce the same sort of stuff that comes out of major publishing houses then lean how to play their game and get them to publish you.
Books I have written so far:
Message in a bottle - a Children's book intended for a child to give to an adult.
Bisexual Vegetarian Zombies - an homage to some of the great "B" movies (e.g. Attack of the Killer Tomatoes) wrapped around contemporary political issues.
Enemy Combatant - a young woman's psychological journey in a world where we harness the tremendous power of moral men consciously and non-judgmentally performing immoral acts. (a la Col. Kurtz - Apocalypse Now)
Okay - I've had my tissy-fit. I'll now put on my asbestos underwear and endure the reaction.
And from these numbers you can see that it is easy to rack up big, big bills. Very soon you can easily spend all that you ever will make from your novel, and more. Therefore! Be thrifty -- do not buy the service until you are fully ready for it. Be a prudent shopper, vetting those alleged editors and proofers. And, one more super tip: Writer Beware. http://www.sfwa.org/other-resources/f...
These are the people who keep tabs on criminous agents, editors, and publishers. If you have doubts about anybody you plan to hop into (professional) bed with, drop a line to Victoria and ask. She keeps a list of bad guys.
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Books mentioned in this topic
They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)
Reprobate: A Katla Novel (other topics)
Aspen Allegations (other topics)
Reprobate: A Katla Novel (other topics)
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Good points Lance, but, The advantage of Trad pub dross over Self Pub dross is the Trad pub gives it credibility. People know it has passed the the Trad Pub editors and readers which means it must have some redeeming virtue right? Credibility is the key, people assume because a book comes from a Trad Pub then it must be of a hgher quality that something from a publisher they have never heard of. With mass media advertising of "anyone can get published" phrases for POD companies like Lightening Source, the general public assumes that anything published through those "was not good enough to be bought by the traditional publishers" therefore it must be rubbish.
So I say all that to say as SPAs we have to hold the bar higher than Trad Pubs because people expect our product to be bad. Blurbs have to be excellent, the writing has to be great and the story has to be wonderful. We don't have the room to have bad books like the Trad Pubs do.
Barnes and Noble has a small press buying department that will put SPAs on their shelves if your books meet their minimum requirements and you meet their expectations for marketing the book.