Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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How to Help Self-Published Authors and Raise the Quality Bar
We currently have 'Writers Beware' to help protect writers from disreputable publishers. R.F.G, I think Linda's proposing a 'Readers Beware' for disreputable writers.
Linda wrote: "I don't have all the answers; I'm just asking a different question. ;-)"Sometimes it's not the answer that's most important, it's the ability to ask the correct question.
@Gregor,
A 'Readers Beware' is only good up to a point and would be only a partial solution.
And for now I need to get back to my duties, tiny Demon Princess needs a bath, and a bottle, she has voluntold me.
R.F.G. wrote: "Linda wrote: "I don't have all the answers; I'm just asking a different question. ;-)"Sometimes it's not the answer that's most important, it's the ability to ask the correct question.
@Gregor,..."
I think the 'Readers Beware' site was proposed as part of a two-pronged approach, to compliment the 'Seal of Approval' sites.
Linda wrote: "If you're going to claim you're giving a percentage of your take to a charity, please provide verifiable evidence of same. "I give to the Wounded Warrior Project. I spoke with them about the best way to go about this. They said that I could not mention them by name and should just make a personal donation, probably on a quarterly or semi-annual basis.
Shall I send you a copy of the cancelled check?
Linda wrote: "You misspelled the name of one of your friends in the Acknowledgments...."Shit - you got me there. Nobody, not even Eric, caught that before.
BTW - one thing I have gotten out of the posting here is the absolute necessity for a professional editor to go through your work. To this point I have used two college professors for editors - but they did it as a courtesy to me and both got caught up in the stories. Being attached to the story really does tend to make silly mistakes become invisible. It takes a real pro, or someone who is totally anal-retentive, to pick all this stuff up. By the way - is anal-retentive supposed to be hyphenated?
Ron wrote: "I give to the Wounded Warrior Project. I spoke with them about the best way to go about this. They said that I could not mention them by name and should just make a personal donation, probably on a quarterly or semi-annual basis."You mean authors for wounded warriors? I don't see Ron Albury listed.
http://authorsforwoundedwarriors.word...
Martyn V. wrote: "You mean authors for wounded warriors? I don't see Ron Albury listed...."The person I contacted at Wounded Warriors didn't tell me there was such a group. As mentioned above, they just told me to send them a check once or twice a year.
I'll follow your link and see what that group is about. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Let's get those pots of coffee and get that hot chocolate ready, seems no one's leaving this thread!While I get the whole 'American Idol' analogy, I feel as though it doesn't serve as good an example as it may have years before when Idol was actually more relevant. Perhaps that's besides the point but also I feel as though it serves its purpose in the sense of you have those who can sing(write) and those who can't. Writing could be like singing when it comes to sifting threw the crap but writing to me seems a bit more hard to determined; again I said seems a bit more hard.
Also as for the whole paying it forward? What is wrong with that? Since when in any matter is it wrong to help another? It's being kind and some authors/writers help one another and expect nothing back in return. Then again yes, their are some who do and even if it's expected it don't mean every person who is, is trying to exploit their fellow writer.
Just my two cents, carry on people, carry on!
Ron wrote: "I'll follow your link and see what that group is about. Thanks for pointing it out to me."You're welcome. Ashley Mackler-Paternostro organized it.
Tiny Demon Princess has been bathed, fed, and given me of her cheese in reward. On to 'Idol', a show I watched maybe once.Some people can do things, some can't, and there are those who force humiliation upon themselves because they won't hear what others are trying to say any other way. Regarding humiliation as a viable tactic, it usually isn't that wise.
If you want seals of approval and disapproval, come up with an association or guild (whatever you want to call it) for those who have the basics down but who haven't either haven't sought or been picked for review.
As for paying forward, it's for those who have enough social conscience to understand the importance of doing it voluntarily and with some good grace. Doing it with ill grace and in as humiliating a fashion as possible negates what the volunteer has done.
One example of ill grace: I remember a man telling me about 'all he'd done to help me out with some extra work from the goodness of his heart' during a rough economic patch. He failed to recall or mention I'd paid him far more back in full rent each month for a dwelling that most inspectors would have condemned as being unfit for occupation per the safety code.
Have a great day, if you have 'em light 'em.
I commented on HuffPost:Martyn V. wrote: "Lovely article, Deborah. I think the comparison to Idols is particularly apt, as are the consequences of surrounding yourself with biased supporters.
The only (minor) point I'd disagree on is putting the cost of self-publishing at 5,000 dollars. With the right connections, you can easily put out a professional self-publishing novel at a third of that price, or even less depending on your talents.
As to having a filter beyond family and friends, that's why most serious SPAs have beta-readers to read their drafts before they publish. Now, I understand that it's difficult to get beta-readers, especially if you're still at a stage where the craft is lacking, but publishing anything without having a pair of dispassionate eyes going over your story is the worst thing you can do for your reputation. The main difficulty is to discern between those utterly beyond hope and the talented few who publish prematurely."
Deborah replied: "Thanks, Martyn. I agree that you can probably publish for less but priced it that way based on my first book and the number of rounds of professional editing. It was over 300 pages and if your book is not as long it would be less. Also to get a customized cover and vet it with a focus group increases the price. Thanks again for your comments."
As I replied on HuffPost:
"I don't know what to make of your reply. You based the costs on what you paid for your first book. I'd say you paid too much.
Most industry professionals will count a novel in words, not in pages, because the amount of pages depend on how many words you cram on a page. Word count remains the same, no matter how many words are on the page. The novels in my series all run over 100,000 words. With the average estimate of 250 words per page, they all have more than 400 pages. However, with proper self-editing and using twelve beta-readers (among them two retired editors), that didn't require several rounds of editing.
I have custom made covers, but that doesn't have to set you back more than 300-500 dollars per cover. I got mine at a fraction of that, mainly because I invested time making the right contacts. And I vetted them with a focus group of readers and industry professionals for nothing.
I think that your 5,000 dollars are an estimate for someone unable to do anything themselves and willing to shell out top dollar for services that can be found at half or one-third of the price is you're willing to invest some time. And most self-publishers have more time than money, so they should invest both wisely."
There's more in that blog post than the cost that I (and others) find issue with. Of course, the $5000 minimum comment is just wrong.
For those of you familiar with the Passive Voice, they looked at that blog post as well, and you can see the reactions of other authors in the comments pointing out other misstatements.
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/02/201...
I think I have stated this elsewhere, but anyone at any level with a willingness to learn can self publish without spending a cent. I love to do my own covers, and I do them long before the book is ready just for the inspiration to finish. Formatting is difficult, but not impossible, and once you learn it you'll have little trouble with it thereafter. This is inclusive of the rich, the poor, and the in-between. But if you're lazy, or have the attitude, "I'm a Writer and all that menial work is beneath me," or "That stuff is best left to the 'Professionals'," then spend it if you've got it.
I agree that anything can be learned, given time, but there is a caveat that the most precious thing we have is time. Self-published authors are often said to have the most time of anybody, since we don't have deadlines to follow (except those we impose upon ourselves), but there's also a trade-off in what that time is worth. If you're jobless, that time is fair game, but most authors work elsewhere while attempting to get recognized, which means their free time is suddenly much more valuable.It has been said that if Bill Gates dropped $100 on the ground, it would not even be worth his time to pick it up. That's true; he'd make more money per second on the interest of his net worth alone. But that doesn't mean he couldn't find somebody to pick up the money for him, at a modest fee. Even if he gave up 50%, he's still keeping half of what he would have lost, and at no expense of his time, which is the essential point here.
Writers can do everything themselves, but they will rarely approach the level of someone who has specialized in any of those fields (cover design, marketing, editing, etc.). And there is a trade-off in time that can be spent writing or networking with other writers or readers.
Now, and here's the kicker, there are other (cheaper) ways of doing things.
There are some writers out there who will read the works of others (in the editing stage or after publication) to give suggestions or reviews, provided a free copy is given. This is an investment of their time, and they may expect an equal investment of your time reading their work. If you ask writers who are familiar with or write in your genre, that's the best; they likely read similar books to you and your target market.
Friends and family can be helpful, too, and their price is unbeatable, but their 5-star reviews aren't fooling anybody. If you choose this route, I hope you have critical readers among your friends (or friends in the editing business), or you likely won't receive much critique aside from "This is great! :)"
Those two points were about editing; what about cover art?
Newly-starting models can (and do) approach college students who are looking to build portfolios for their professional careers. Although they aren't established, these are people who have been specialized in a particular service. Likewise, graphic design and art majors will gladly produce fantastic art for your cover at a steep discount because they, too, are looking to build portfolios and get noticed.
In fact, college campuses can be a great place to source a lot of these services. You'll find specialized undergraduate and graduate students who will eagerly use their knowledge to help you (and themselves) get discovered, often at little or no cost to you compared to established professionals (all of whom, at one point, were also in college). Always be discerning of who you choose to help you, of course, but these are just a few suggestions of how to capitalize on some available resources.
Richard wrote: "Linda wrote: "I was raised to believe bragging about one's accomplishments in front of others who might not be able to brag was rude"Wow, that makes two of us! ;-)"
Similar upbringing, but I was taught a simple statement of "I did (insert action here)" wasn't considered bragging, unless it was done consistently and as a way of making oneself look better than others.
I was also taught self-promotion is not equal to bragging. Delineating skills in a factual manner when applying for a job, self-promotion. Trying to impress someone with something amazing, bragging.
Linda wrote: "I think there is an increasingly pervasive attitude that the author who doesn't spend a lot of money on her self-publishing project is somehow less of a professional than the one who buys everything. This is why I constantly beseech writers to learn their craft rather than relying on paid "editors."."Well, if you read the comments section of HuffPost, you can read how Deborah came at 5,000 dollars budget for self-publishing a novel:
Deborah Plummer wrote in the comment session of HuffPost, in reply to my statement (#231): " I look at it from a business perspective and did take into account my travel expenses for interviews, writing coach, books for background reading, etc. Everything that went into getting the book to print (to say nothing of the hours spent writing it that I did not include). I don't think self-published authors take consider overhead costs in addition to the actual publishing process. . My publishers did a great job and it was based on word count so the actual publishing costs were less than the $5k. My point is that to get a quality book to the standards of traditional publishers, one must consider the entire package. Thanks for the discussion."
My reply on HuffPost:
"I think most self-publishers make a distinction between the costs of their education (from how-to manuals to creative writing classes), the equipment needed to write (MacBook Pro, Scrivener, office supplies), research (books, exhibitions, library fees, travel costs, lockpicking materials, knives, ammunition, shooting range fees, martial arts contribution), from the actual costs of publishing (cover, editing, formatting).
If I would lump all those costs together, the costs would be around 20,000 euro, but that would be disingenuous to say the least, because I'd make all these costs to write the book, not to publish the book.
I've been writing for over two decades without publishing. I don't count all the material and time I spend learning the craft and all the equipment (typewriters, several laptops, office supplies) into publishing the book. That would probably come closer to 250,000 euros.
So, let's stick to the actual costs of publishing, not the costs of becoming a writer and researcher, because I think most people who think your 5,000 dollars is grossly exaggerated think that you paid 5,000 dollars for a cover, editing and formatting."
One point that is hopefully worth making is how to define and explain the differences between editing, beta reading, proof reading, and all the other options to someone who is new to writing. The odds are overwhelmingly against a neophyte writer having any idea what's involved and how the different aspects get different results. I get the distinct impression that many new writers have the idea that all of these fall under the 'editing' umbrella and any of these are essentially the same. To raise the overall quality level of new writers they would need to spend some time learning how these all work together. While this information is available, the difficulty is getting at least a majority of aspiring authors to go and do their homework by learning this along with how to refine their own work.
I believe this is probably the biggest issue with digital self publishing. None of this is required so the end result is lots of works being published online that are hard to read at best. I agree with Linda that talent isn't universal and if you don't have the discipline to learn how to do something right you're not going to get a good result.
Getting this point across to aspiring authors en masse is really the hard part because the information is freely available.
I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for listening.
Andy
Richard wrote: "Linda wrote: "I was raised to believe bragging about one's accomplishments in front of others who might not be able to brag was rude"
Wow, that makes two of us! ;-)"
There is an alternative and very old maxim: "Don't hide your light under a bushel."
Wow, that makes two of us! ;-)"
There is an alternative and very old maxim: "Don't hide your light under a bushel."
Martyn V. wrote: "I've been writing for over two decades without publishing. I don't count all the material and time I spend learning the craft and all the equipment (typewriters, several laptops, office supplies) into publishing the book. That would probably come closer to 250,000 euros.So, let's stick to the actual costs of publishing, not the costs of becoming a writer and researcher, because I think most people who think your 5,000 dollars is grossly exaggerated think that you paid 5,000 dollars for a cover, editing and formatting."
Nice rebuttal, Martyn. Goodness, what would the "costs of publishing" be if every writer counted in electricity and internet costs, groceries to keep up their strength while writing, gasoline for the car so they can get to and from the writing classes, and more? In theory, everything could be counted.
I love when someone knows how to debate with logic.
I checked out Shaun's link for The Passive Voice, and got a big chuckle out of someone's comment where the person pointed out a beauty from the article:
“…those who love to write but cannot put words on a page that do not make sense…”
Lynda wrote: "Nice rebuttal, Martyn. Goodness, what would the "costs of publishing" be if every writer counted in electricity and internet costs, groceries to keep up their strength while writing, gasoline for the car so they can get to and from the writing classes, and more? In theory, everything could be counted."The thing I dislike is that Deborah first claims that self-publishing as single novel to a professional standard costs 5,000 dollars.
When I express my doubts, she says it's 300 pages (which she mentions as if 300 pages is a BIG book) and it required several rounds of professional editing and the cover was customized (I think she means custom-made?) and had to be vetted by a group(?).
And when I say that 5,000 dollars is still a lot of money for a cover and editing, she drags out all her other costs.
I have my doubts about a writer who talks about the length of her book in pages instead of words, and I got the feeling that she couldn't self-edit and didn't balk at paying top dollar for services that could be done just as well or even better at a fraction of the price.
I had no idea she had inflated her budget by including expenses other than 'cover, editing, formatting', because the rest is not 'publishing'. It's writing, or marketing, or promotion. Also, if you're a bit savvy about taxes, you can deduct a lot of costs you make marketing your book: paid ads, office supplies, travel expenses, internet fees, maybe even the coffee you slurp at Starbucks. But what you cannot do is just add those costs to the budget of publishing the novel and tell people that's what it costs to self-publish.
Martyn V. wrote: "But what you cannot do is just add those costs to the budget of publishing the novel and tell people that's what it costs to self-publish."Well, you can obviously, as she did. You just can't and expect people to let it slide by without asking questions. :) Very nice rebuttal, Martyn.
Sounds to me like she not only needed line editing but content editing as well. That could raise prices quickly. I can't imagine paying someone to format for me. It's really not that difficult!
Hmmm, Deborah's reply:"For clarification...most of those costs were directly related to producing the book and its publication. We also need to make a distinction between basic copyright editing and comprehensive editing (style,narrative, story arc, etc.) that a lot of self publishers do not do and that many could benefit from having done. The costs are very real. I did not add my education or general writing courses. I still stand by the cost analysis for my book...the average cost certainly might be lower... but I believe that is part of the problem with quality self-published work."
My reply:
"I didn't know you needed 'basic copyright editing'. You can just insert a basic copyright text: "The right to be identified as author of this Work has been asserted by Martyn V. Halm in accordance with sections 77 and 78 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in retrieval system, copied in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise transmitted without written permission from the publisher.
Please do not circulate this book in any format without express consent."
You can copy this copyright notice and just change the name. Free of charge.
What I'd like to see is a breakdown of your costs, like:
- cover e-book 350 dollars
- cover print version + 150 dollars
- copy editing 300 pages x 250 words = 75,000 words x 0,013 dollars = 1,000 dollars.
- formatting e-book 200 dollars
- formatting print 350 dollars
Something like that."
My books are not perfect by any means and Linda I am finally sorting out a professional editor but I cannot believe people are paying for formatting of ebooks or print books. Scrivener does both for about $45. I did spend another $10 on a how to manual which covered some tricky bits about alternate footers and headers auto created from chapter headings!
Is it me, or is she waffling back and forth now on the costs she adds in to reach that $5000 mark and is still trying to claim that is the minimum required for a self-published author to create a book that comes close to the "quality" of a traditionally published one? That just makes it seem like she's trying to justify to herself the costs she paid. Now, granted, the rates listed by the Editorial Freelancers Association is listed by pages, not word counts. By the rates associated with them, as well, she could easily break the $5000 with just a single developmental edit plus a heavy copyedit. To be honest though, (and I've spent a fair bit of time looking) I've yet to find someone who actually goes by those rates.
I see she also closed the conversation she was having with you on her blog, without breaking down costs like you requested. Honestly, the whole blog post seems like a joke now. There are some good points in it, to be sure, but it's also plain now that she is deliberately misrepresenting numbers and information in order to support an opinion which doesn't bear out with real facts. At this point, I give her about as much credibility as I do Scott Turow and Richard Russo, which is to say, none at all.
The saga continues:Deborah wrote: " My mistake...meant copy editing, not copyright editing. No worry...I get and respect your point. Actual printing a book can be cheaper. The point of my blog post is that there is an investment and the amount of that investment will be reflected in how your book will look and sell. Of course, there are the occasional best seller fueled by influential fans (Fifty Shades of Grey, Slammed) but those are outliers. Thanks for the conversation."
My reply:
""The point of my blog post is that there is an investment and the amount of that investment will be reflected in how your book will look and sell."
So, because you spend 5,000 dollars, your book will look and sell better than a book where the author invested 1,000 dollars? Can you guess how much money was invested in a book, just by looking at it?
I can see the difference between a photoshop cover and no editing and someone who made an investment of, say, a 1,000 dollars, but not between spending 1,000 dollars and 5,000 dollars.
If you can see the difference, I'd like you to check out my books and give me an estimate on how much I spend on my 'package'. Just a ballpark figure. And whether they appear professional or not.
You can find my suspense fiction books here: http://www.amazon.com/Martyn-V.-Halm/..."
As it is, anyone in this thread can play along: check the link and tell me whether my books look professional and give a ballpark estimate of my expenses (Cover, editing, formatting).
EDIT: please add if your estimate is per book or for all six publications (three books and three short stories).
Closest estimate wins all my books in either epub or mobi.
Nice push dagger in the art -- could have cost between $0 to $350, or much more. There are some professional graphic artists who offer their services at low cost because they got tired of seeing crappy covers. There are some writers who are good cover artists as well.Just looking quickly at the covers, the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller.
My mother wouldn't lend me $5 if I was starving, why would she lift a finger to sell something for me?
R.F.G. wrote: "Nice push dagger in the art -- could have cost between $0 to $350, or much more."If you want to enter the competition, you can't cast your net this wide. You need to give a ballpark estimate.
R.F.G. wrote: "Just looking quickly at the covers, the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller."
I'll send your compliment to my cover artist.
Martyn V. wrote: "The saga continues:Deborah wrote: " My mistake...meant copy editing, not copyright editing. No worry...I get and respect your point. Actual printing a book can be cheaper. The point of my blog po..."
I'll guess an average cost of $150 USD per book.
R.F.G. wrote: "...the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller. "Now what is THAT supposed to mean?
Shaun wrote: "I see she also closed the conversation she was having with you on her blog, without breaking down costs like you requested."A break down of her expenses would probably rate a much smaller budget and still show she probably overpaid on services.
Gregor wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "...the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller. "Now what is THAT supposed to mean?"
Relax, Gregor. It's suspense fiction, but R.F.G. probably means that the cover looks equal to trade published mystery/suspense/thriller genre covers.
Henry wrote: "Martyn, I'll throw in my estimate of 600 Euro for the set."
Is that per book, or all six publications?
Martyn V. wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Nice push dagger in the art -- could have cost between $0 to $350, or much more."If you want to enter the competition, you can't cast your net this wide. You need to give a ballpar..."
I'm going to guess about $175 for the cover art, about $500 for editing, and another $60 for a final proofread. Sooo...$735 for a single book.
What I find funny, is that if Deborah goes by her own definitions, she has to guess you paid $5000 or more, otherwise she's:
A.) admitting people can pay less than her stated minimum and get professional results, invalidating her whole blog post.
or
B.) claiming that your work doesn't look professional, which is, if she is a professional at all, something she's not going to do publicly.
Martyn V. wrote: "Gregor wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "...the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller. "Now what is THAT supposed to mean?"
Relax, Gregor. It's suspense fiction, but R.F.G. probably means that th..."
I was just kidding. I figured that's what he meant.
Henry wrote: "Covers, all six. Don't be hatin' :)
I'm only saying that because you have connections.
I would not dare to make the same invitation."
Whole package, Henry. So cover + editing + formatting.
Gregor wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "...the work looks professional for a suspense-thriller. "Now what is THAT supposed to mean?"
Suspense-thriller, suspense fiction that can involve espionage, assassins, or a search for a murderer, but in general it keeps you guessing.
Henry wrote: "Well, knowing what I know about you and your writing abilities, the editing would have been minimal. Plus, you likely know people."On the other hand, I'm not a native speaker, and while I can write on a computer, I can't program or write html or anything like that.
Okay, so far:
Henry thinks 200 euro per book.
Shaun thinks 735 USD per book.
Gregor thinks 150 USD per book.
Martyn V. wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Nice push dagger in the art -- could have cost between $0 to $350, or much more."If you want to enter the competition, you can't cast your net this wide. You need to give a ballpar..."
Actually, I'm not trying to enter a competition, just commenting on the cover art. Your covers point toward your genre and do it well.
I've seen some $3,500 covers I thought the cover artist did while on bad drugs.
As for not trying to win books, it's more about work load. I've got 24 projects to finish before I have to get into gear educating my daughter, and at her rate of development that might be two and a half years, if I'm lucky.
While she's an infant I have some time to write and at times read for pleasure. Once she's better able to communicate, her learning to learn comes first, and when she's grown and ready to go out into the world...
R.F.G. wrote: "Actually, I'm not trying to enter a competition, just commenting on the cover art. Your covers point toward your genre and do it well."Thanks. You can also enter just for the heck. I have a large TBR list so I don't enter into giveaways unless the books appeal to me, but this is just to see if you can guess my expenses. Professional cover, editing, formatting.
I added the 'prize' just for fun--competitions should have prizes.
Martyn V. wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Actually, I'm not trying to enter a competition, just commenting on the cover art. Your covers point toward your genre and do it well."Thanks. You can also enter just for the heck...."
Okay, going on impulse I'd 'guess' your total expenses for everything on all books not counting copyright fees or any print proofs at $60.
Professional quality does not necessarily equate with large sums of money, and artists often have reasons other than money for doing what they do.
This is a very interesting post...My two cents may not be relevant to the discussions thus far in the post, but I could not refrain from commenting..
I think that traditional authors and indie authors are not that much different.
As an avid reader, I do not discriminate and can honestly say that I have read just as many bad books created by traditional authors as I have from from indie authors.
The gatekeeper has been and always will be the reader.
As a committed writer, I have accepted the fact that I have always been obsessed with words. Regardless of my reviews on amazon(luckily they have been okay) or my rankings. I will always be a writer, and will still always be working on something.
In that respect, there is not much difference between the indie author and the traditionally published author.
Certainly I will get criticized on this next statement, but the debate about which kind of author is better at their craft is mostly irrelevant.
Granted, there are people who probably put a book out and then try to tweak the system.
(Are these writers or marketers or something else? Fodder for another discussion entirely)
However..Anyone who spends years working on their "babies" will strive to send out their creations with equal care.
Traditional authors and indie authors are also identical in this way.
Raising the bar..(the real purpose of this post)
A (traditional or indie) writer will..
Outline the story well, and do the necessary research. Spend way too much of their not very free time being obsessed with their new imaginary friends alive only on paper. They will then have some beta readers comment on their experiment.
If the readers say that story sucks, the writer will start a different story. Then maybe come back and start that story all over again or take another crack at it when the wound heals.
If the writer gets good feedback, they will let it "cool" and then re-write the weaker parts with fresh eyes. Then (and only then) the writer will spend their money on a professional editor.
(Or two if they can afford it)
Then the writer does another re-write.
Then they enter the production phase. Which should be considered another stage of development on its own, and a discussion of its own as well.
Regardless of who publishes the book, some people will like the story and others will hate it.
Neither traditional or indie authors are immune from this fact.
Hopefully that was not too long of a rant and was of some value to someone...
Richard wrote: "Another blog relevant to the slush-pile volcano discussion happening in the blogosphere: http://walkitout.livejournal.com/1087..."I understand the points quite well. Considering the US educational system with its "Each Child Held Behind" and "Wrong Math Answers Are Right" initiatives, you might see some interesting things before long.
Richard wrote: "Another blog relevant to the slush-pile volcano discussion happening in the blogosphere: http://walkitout.livejournal.com/1087..."
Great article, and very enlightening.
Great article, and very enlightening.
Martyn V. wrote: "Henry wrote: "Well, knowing what I know about you and your writing abilities, the editing would have been minimal. Plus, you likely know people."On the other hand, I'm not a native speaker, and w..."
$700 per book is my guess, although I originally thought $800. :)
So far:Henry thinks 200 euro per book.
Shaun thinks 735 USD per book.
Gregor thinks 150 USD per book.
R.F.G. thinks 10 USD per book.
Heather thinks 700 USD per book.
Shaun wrote: "What I find funny, is that if Deborah goes by her own definitions, she has to guess you paid $5000 or more, otherwise she's:A.) admitting people can pay less than her stated minimum and get professional results, invalidating her whole blog post.
or
B.) claiming that your work doesn't look professional, which is, if she is a professional at all, something she's not going to do publicly."
Since I challenged her, Deborah can give her professional opinion publicly. However, if she claims my work doesn't look professional, she'd have to point out why. For instance, sloppy artwork, bad editing, formatting all over the place, something like that.
Meanwhile, I took a look at her book, They Still Call Me Sister, which has is available in two different covers:
The first one,
, features original artwork, but the second version,
, seems generic.
Martyn V. wrote: "So far:Henry thinks 200 euro per book.
Shaun thinks 735 USD per book.
Gregor thinks 150 USD per book.
R.F.G. thinks 10 USD per book.
Heather thinks 700 USD per book."
I based the $10 on a professional graphic artist / author who will do cover art for what the SPA can afford. He wants to see more professional covers and is basically giving his time away for a very nominal fee, though usually a slightly greater amount than $10.
There's also the scenario of buying an appropriate adult beverage for an artist friend who's done the work pro bono for a friend.
I would posit that the cost for your cover art will tend to blow a serious hole in the $5,000 expense per book figure, as good cover art can be a significant part of the expense.
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Books mentioned in this topic
They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)They Still Call Me Sister (other topics)
Reprobate: A Katla Novel (other topics)
Aspen Allegations (other topics)
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Other than telling SP authors to hire a quality editor, it seems the discussion is stuck on bashing SP authors who are not, in the participants opinion, quality writers.