Classical music lovers discussion
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Composers that aren't cool
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I'm used to being uncool. I do it for a living (I teach). And I love Rachmaninoff -- especially his Vespers and the Choral Dances. I'm not wild about Mozart, and Tchaikovsky has kind of been "warhorsed" to death by the Nutcracker Oh-So-Suite. But I like Copland, too, and even money he's uncool, also!
The moral? Pompous Professor Plums keep doing it in the conservatory with a pipe (they're high on themselves, you see).
'She told me that at conservatories it is considered declasse to like Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff or Mozart.'
There's a long history of snobbery in academia towards Rachmaninoff. His importance was quite severely impugned by whoever wrote the article for the 1954 edition of the New Grove, which went on to slag him off in a manner not befitting a text of an encyclopaedic nature!
Both Tchai and Mo (as well as Rach) suffer from 'Classic FM' syndrome, in that the frequency in which they're played on that crappy radio station elicits snobbery from cloth-eared culture-vultures and kool and 'cerebral' people who like Stockhausen and anything else that they're supposed to.
The problem with Mozart is that all his music -whether good or bad, or in-between- features the same lucidity and effortlessness. Hence, people who don't have discerning ears quite easily mistake the bad for the good.
I don't know enough of Tchaikovsky's music, and that which I do know I'm not especially familiar with, but I still nonetheless love it. Ditto Rach. And I also love Mozart. The snobs can go fuck themselves.
There's a long history of snobbery in academia towards Rachmaninoff. His importance was quite severely impugned by whoever wrote the article for the 1954 edition of the New Grove, which went on to slag him off in a manner not befitting a text of an encyclopaedic nature!
Both Tchai and Mo (as well as Rach) suffer from 'Classic FM' syndrome, in that the frequency in which they're played on that crappy radio station elicits snobbery from cloth-eared culture-vultures and kool and 'cerebral' people who like Stockhausen and anything else that they're supposed to.
The problem with Mozart is that all his music -whether good or bad, or in-between- features the same lucidity and effortlessness. Hence, people who don't have discerning ears quite easily mistake the bad for the good.
I don't know enough of Tchaikovsky's music, and that which I do know I'm not especially familiar with, but I still nonetheless love it. Ditto Rach. And I also love Mozart. The snobs can go fuck themselves.
Beethoven is apparently the one to like, if you are cool. I agree that the classic FM is part of the problem. I personally cannot stand the Nutcracker--whenever I enter a store during Xmas season and I hear that music I immediately leave. But there are some other beautiful pieces. For me, Serenade is brilliant. Also, I think that Mozart, because he's work is so seamless and effortless, is more difficult to play. When you mess up in Mozart, everyone can hear it. The whole structure falls apart.
Beethoven? I thought the cool dude was Shoshtakovitch (thanks for spelling it for me). And certainly Mahler. And I do like Mahler, too. I happen to live in a market where there's a "Classics Station" that plays works no longer than 10 or 15 minutes -- usually shorter still. So you get "Sheep May Safely Graze (As Long As Wolfgang Isn't Around)" and "Entrance of the Queen of Sheba" (or some such named thing by Handel -- is it not cool to heart Handel? -- and "Adagio in Strings" by Barber (but not of Seville, apparently).
REAL classics fans have conniptions over such stations. Me, I tolerate it, though I can listen to the NPR long haul pieces, too.
I thought I disliked Philip Glass (cool, right?) but then I spent some minutes with The Hours (piano music to a movie I never did or would see) and LIKED it. To work by. And read by. You know, wordless background music that relaxes you.
P.S. Many of Mozart's pieces sound similar to me. I'll have my ears checked.
I'm sure there's someone out there much more knowledgeable than me who can explain all this...
Mod
I have often thought about this. James is right that popularity confers upon the composer uncool status among students in berets and difficult glasses. It's bound to.
Personally I love Nikolai Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade, which would make any music snob choke on their cheroot and turn even paler than usual with horror. It's ADORABLE. I listen to it in the bath. They also play it often at Brixton tube station in a bid to reduce antisocial behaviour. It's true! It must work!
newengland - glad you mentioned Rach's Vespers, which are among my absolute favourite pieces of music. But I find his piano works (what I know of them) a bit melodramatic.
I think I'm looking more and more un-cool as I continue this thread, but I'm a HUGE fan of Scheherazade as well. I also love the Ballet Russes ballet to this music--it is one of my all time favorites. That particular piece has so much romance and emotion packed into it. What's neat about that piece as well is the historical context associated with it. I think that the early 20th's century obsession with Orientalism is totally fascinating.
Wagner's raging anti-semitism has always been difficult for me to reconcile with the man who revolutionized the form with the Wagnerian style of conducting. It's a ferocious dichotomy that such beautiful music could come from a man with such ugly ideas.
Damn you Wagner! Your music is brilliant, but you're such a jerk!
Damn you Wagner! Your music is brilliant, but you're such a jerk!
The same trouble occurs with writers: Ezra Pound and Knut Hamsun, for instance, for Nazi sympathies; Hemingway for misogyny and heavy drinking; the Marquis de Sade for... no, wait a minute, that was his bread and butter (sick puppy).Anyway, when it comes to art, I think it's cool to focus on the art and ignore the artist. Of course, if the artist is alive and my money for his art is helping him out financially to spread a message I really abhor, that'd be a Valkyrie or another color.
A writer or composer's views and personality are all rather arbitrary in relation to their actual talent (I realise though, that this is not the romantic view on the topic).
Anti-semitism was de rigeur in many factions of European society in the ninteenth and early twentieth century, in the same way that, before around forty years ago, most Europeans or white Americans would have presupposed the inferiority of black people.
Anti-semitism was de rigeur in many factions of European society in the ninteenth and early twentieth century, in the same way that, before around forty years ago, most Europeans or white Americans would have presupposed the inferiority of black people.
Mod
Haha!
I guess so. I still like him though.
I guess so. I still like him though.
Vaughan Williams. He writes all of this mood, English countryside peasant music, no? A lot of it sounds like old movie score music, and oh so sad in a halcyon way. I like it, too -- cool or tool.
Mod
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus is about as folky as it gets.
Hey nonny nonny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbcute...
- is that somebody's holiday snaps?
Mod
Mod
There's something to be said for overexposed pieces like "The Blue Danube" and all of the other music that's been done to death in commercials, movie trailers and old cartoons. When I was young I had an album called "24 great classical pieces" or something along those lines, with a fair selection of old chestnuts -"Air on a G String", "Ode to Joy", "Ride of the Valkyries", "Waltz of the Flowers", "Rhapsody in Blue", "Hall of the Mountain King" and, yes, "The Blue Danube", - and it probably did a lot in eventually aiming me toward other music.
Mod
In the UK, Air on a G String is still associated with a cigar brand called Hamlet because it was used in their ads in the 1970s (back when you could advertise tobacco on TV). Which is a shame because it is very beautiful.
And Dvorak's New World Symphony is always associated with Hovis bread for the same reason.
For something similar to Air on a G String (written the same year, in fact - 1717) but different, try the adagio from Bach's Sonata for Violin & Obligato Harpsichord in E Major, BWV 1016.
More info and video link here
http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/sh...
It makes me positively apoplectic to think of how music is and has been abused by philistines.
I agree that many of these musical appropriations create a powerful association (it's hard to hear "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and not think of "2001" ...or Elvis) but my feeling is that in most cases the musical pieces will be strong enough to hold their own.Even after this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SE-NdrzfFOo
Mod
Long time no Tonto.(And it should be noted that many of us heard classical music for the first time by watching cartoons such as Bugs Bunny et. al.)
A bunch of the pianists I used to know in high school always ragged on Rach for his overheated, schmaltzy romanticism, which he stuck to even after the original romantics had long since died... which isn't entirely fair, because there's a lot of delicate, tender music in there, and it's not like even the schmaltz is easy to play.I have to admit to being a snob about Tchaikovsky, though. His music makes me a little sick to my stomach. A lot of it is the bombast of the 1812 Overture - if I ever had to listen to it all the way through I'd plant myself right in front of the cannons in hopes of a quick death or at least enough hearing loss to miss the rest. I can't imagine it being played in such a way that I'd want to hear it.
Let's not kid ourselves - all music played by an orchestra is hopelessly uncool. Brixton could just as easily decrease antisocial behavior by playing a relative hepcat like Ives - it'd probably clear the area for blocks. Having the patience to listen to even the cooler composers like Reich or Glass takes a level of overt, unembarrassed intellectualism that most people would find sickening. It was for a long time the music of privilege and superfluous education, and if it wasn't before it definitely is now. More's the pity.
"Having the patience to listen to even the cooler composers like Reich or Glass takes a level of overt, unembarrassed intellectualism that most people would find sickening."
On the contrary, I find I have to switch my brain off to listen to either of these composers. Amiable minimalist banality doesn't require the kind of intellectualism required for listening to and comprehending the work of (for instance) Elliott Carter or Brian Ferneyhough.
On the contrary, I find I have to switch my brain off to listen to either of these composers. Amiable minimalist banality doesn't require the kind of intellectualism required for listening to and comprehending the work of (for instance) Elliott Carter or Brian Ferneyhough.
Mod
I will pass on your suggestions to the staff at the tube station. I am sure they are always on the lookout for new ideas. :D
The 1812 doesn't make me sick but it is so embarrassing that it does make me blush furiously.
Rach was fine as long as somebody took his piano away. ;)
James, you may be right that Glass and Reich's music is merely amiable and banal, but the cultural and historical heritage that they draw on is where the intellectualism comes in, I think. Most teenagers are not going to have read enough Gandhi (or even King) to know what "satyagraha" means; most will not know that Nixon ever went to China, or much about the interpersonal dynamics of Mao and Nixon, indeed, most will not recognize the names Mao Tse-Tung or Nixon in the first place; most won't know enough about the bible to recognize the sources for The Cave.If you think Adams, Glass, and Reich are below the attention of most teenagers because there isn't enough innovative music in there to hold their attention, let me remind you that most American teenagers can't find India on a map or name the sitting Vice President. If you sat an unfortunate class of 17-year-olds down to listen to Einstein on the Beach, there wouldn't be anything thematically recognizable for most of them to hold onto. (I know - I saw a live performance of it when I was 8 or so, and my parents had to drag me out of the stadium, whereas now it's one of my favorites.) You can blame a lot of different people for that, but in any case, if you're a classical music listener and can recognize the cultural sources of the music you listen to, you should fess up to being engaged in a way that many people out there may not really be able to relate to.
That may not even be important. But I'm curious as to whether you all think classical music listenership tracks with income/class.
Mod
This is subject that has, inevitably, come up on our forums, though we haven't really scratched the surface yet and things can get quite heated.
http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/sh...
http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/sh...
The thread split and got a bit narky in the end (it's all water under the bridge now - I don't really want it to all kick off again!) but before then it touched on the issues of culture and class.
I would be interested to know more about what you think about this.
Mod
This is an interesting, and related, phenomenon too. A working class kid who is bullied for being a chorister and then reduces the jury of a popular entertainment show to floods of tears...
http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/sh...
(I am DETERMINED to get you posting on our forum! :D )
'James, you may be right that Glass and Reich's music is merely amiable and banal, but the cultural and historical heritage that they draw on is where the intellectualism comes in, I think.'
I'm taking about the music. Titles mean nothing.
'Cultural sources' meant very little to me as a young teenager. Indeed, I still enjoyed Liszt's Faust symphony without having a clue about the story on which it was based, I still enjoyed various masses, requiems and cantatas without knowing the meaning of the texts and the cultural importance of them.
Minimalist music is easy to listen to. Why else do you think that it's the most popular of contemporary classical styles? Its hypnotic repetitions are akin to Trance, amongst other styles of pop.
I'm taking about the music. Titles mean nothing.
'Cultural sources' meant very little to me as a young teenager. Indeed, I still enjoyed Liszt's Faust symphony without having a clue about the story on which it was based, I still enjoyed various masses, requiems and cantatas without knowing the meaning of the texts and the cultural importance of them.
Minimalist music is easy to listen to. Why else do you think that it's the most popular of contemporary classical styles? Its hypnotic repetitions are akin to Trance, amongst other styles of pop.
I like Rachmaninoff, though I'm unfamiliar w/ most of his works. Mozart...well, he's considered the best, but it does seem unorganized, like the notes are just scrabbled on the page, like there's no thought or enjoyment behind them, though i do love his moonlight sonata, horn concertos and requiem masses, and some of his operas. i also like pachebel, mendelssohn, copland, lemba, albinoni (esp. gallipoli), and beethoven, of course. any suggestions?
It's so uncool to think Mozart is uncool!Mozart is anything but "unorganised" and he didn't write the Moonlight sonata. Sigh.
For all you Mozart haters out there here's what some worthwhile opinions had to say about him
The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts. (Richard Wagner)
I have always reckoned myself among the greatest admirers of Mozart, and shall do so till the day of my death.(Ludwig van Beethoven)
Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation, but I’ve got only the keyboard in my poor head. (Chopin)
A light, bright, fine day this will remain throughout my whole life. As from afar, the magic notes of Mozart’s music still gently haunts me. (Franz Schubert)
Mozart makes you believe in God because it cannot be by chance that such a phenomenon arrives into this world and leaves such an unbounded number of unparalleled masterpieces. (Georg Solti)
If we cannot write with the beauty of Mozart, let us at least try to write with his purity. (Johannes Brahms)
Mozart is the musical Christ. (Tchaikovsky)
A phenomenon like Mozart remains an inexplicable thing. (Goethe)
"Cool" is a category I can't associate with classical music. It belongs to a different idiom. Radiohead and Miles Davis are cool. I'm not entirely sure what a cool composer would be. If I were to stretch I might say that Thomas Adès or Steve Reich might qualify.
It depends if you're talking about the superficial sense of cool ie James Brownor something with a deep internal complexity that makes you think - "Wow, that's cool' ie most Bach
i love tchaikovsky. I love playing Tchaikovsky. and Mozart is probably one of my favorite composers, at least on the piano. i totally fell in love with some of their pieces
Anna wrote: "It's so uncool to think Mozart is uncool!Mozart is anything but "unorganised" and he didn't write the Moonlight sonata. Sigh.
For all you Mozart haters out there here's what some worthwhile opin..."
that is SO true
"Cool" doesn't just mean something you like, it refers to something that is stimulating, idiosyncratic, and, above all, contemporary. Something cool is worthy of the aesthetic approbation of a modern audience that is in-the-know. I love Hegel, but Hegel is not cool. Neither is Mozart, Bach, Buxtehude, or Rachmaninoff. It's hard to make a case for anything pre-1950s to be "cool."
Thomas Adès's "Aslya" or Steve Reich's "Phase Piano" might qualify, but if you call Mozart's Concerto for flute and harp "cool" you're disqualifying yourself from using the term.
To be honest, I actually a lot of these admittedly overplayed pieces. Dvorak 9 has got to be one of my top five favorites of all time (though #8 ranks up there as well and is not played nearly often enough). As for Mozart...in orchestra this semester we played a Schumann symphony (#3) and Mozart #29. Of the two, Schumann had harder notes and rythems, but I would say that the Mozart was harder, just because it was nearly impossible to get it to sound right. What I like about Mozart is the ends of his phrases; I asked my mom about them and she said 'the way he spaces his cadences makes them unique from other composers of the era.'This is not to say that Mozart is my favorite composer - I'm more of a romantic-era kind of girl - but I do realize that he has something in his music that other composers of his time just didn't have.
Also, his operas are amazing.
Tchikovsky is one of my favorite composers. I play the Dance of the Flowers on the piano (it annoys my mother to no end) but I truly adore his symphonys. The first movement of the Patetique and the second movement of #5 are very beautiful, and very underplayed.
I suppose the only composers that I don't really like are Wagner and Rimsky-Korsakov. I've listened to some of Wagners operas on the radio and...I don't know. I can't really find the melody a lot of the time, but that's probably just me.
Sheherazarde - I heard it once on the radio. It was nice, but very long. Just not my thing I suppose.
As for the question of what composers are 'cool' or 'uncool'...guys, if we were trying to be cool we'd all be listening to modern rock groups.
Lyza, One listener's "cool" is another listener's "cold." "Cool," like so many slang expressions, is vague. Like "amazing" when it doesn't really mean amazing. I find my tastes have changed with age (maturation?). When I was in my twenties I loved Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, for example. Now, not really, and if I may be permitted a shopworn cliche, it's derivative as well. Beethoven, for me, is the greatest, it's the most powerful, seemingly arising from the depths of the soul. Mozart and Vivaldi (and many others of the same era) are great for lighthearted feeling that all is right with the world. But, as I said, one listener's cool...
I think my tastes have gone earlier as I´ve got older. First it was baroque music then renaissance then medieval. And probably more cerebral...Bach, fugues, polyphony. I´ve no idea if that´s cool or not but then I was nuts about Beethoven when my school friends were raving about Donny Osmond so I guess that the question of whether the music I like is ´cool´ or not has never really bothered me. As Clark says...it´s too vague a term to mean anything very much.
Sue wrote: "I think my tastes have gone earlier as I´ve got older. First it was baroque music then renaissance then medieval. And probably more cerebral...Bach, fugues, polyphony. I´ve no idea if that´s cool o..."Sue, your speaking of Baroque reminds me, I like a great deal of Baroque as well. Purcell is great, but I still feel nothing compares to Beethoven. What irony, his becoming deaf. It's like Jorge Luis Borges becoming almost totally blind when he was made Director of the National Library of Argentina. He refers to this irony in his poem, "Poema de los dones" (poem about [God-given] Gifts (or talents).
Clark
http://www.clarkzlotchew.com
I like Wagner AND Rachmaninoff. Actually, I pretty much like everything (except Stravinsky and Shoshtakovitch--but that's because I had difficulty reading his music. The edition I had was in Russian and was really blurred so it was hard to see the notes.)
Cheers,
Elizabeth