The House of Hades
discussion
NICO… YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT O.o
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notyourfriend
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rated it 4 stars
Nov 03, 2013 01:47PM
YET, Avalon wrote: "Because Caitlyn, your opinion hurts other people. You ARE the bully here. What you say makes other people feel horrible about themselves. You make them feel like they don't belong, even if it is yo..."
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You might not like that you're words are hurtful to others, but that doesn't change that they are. Telling you that isn't bullying, not in the slightest. Hopefully if you come to see what your words do to others, you might reconsider them in the future?
Yea, because I DISAGREE with the MAJORITY I am the WRONG one! Let this be a sign of the things to come, for it's only going to get worse.
It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about hurting other people because of your personal opinions.
Your opinions = Correct, not hurtful.Mine = Wrong, hurtful.
Got it. Thank you VERY much for showing me how AWESOME this life is! I've got a LOT to look forward to.
Paigetwo *Caitlyn* wrote: "Yea, because I DISAGREE with the MAJORITY I am the WRONG one! Let this be a sign of the things to come, for it's only going to get worse."It's honestly not. You are handling the situation in the worst way possible. You could respond that you have your beliefs and respects ours. That would works much better than fighting.
As I said, it's not about your opinions, it's about hurting others. Can you seriously not see how hurtful it is to say people are unnatural, abominations, disgusting, sick, going to hell, perverted or telling them that they should do what you say or they're wrong and nasty and shouldn't exist. Do you honestly think those words don't hurt people?
Instead you think telling people not to hurt others is hurtful?
Expressing opinions is not always harmless, not at all.
Paigetwo *Caitlyn* wrote: "Your opinions = Correct, not hurtful.Mine = Wrong, hurtful.
Got it. Thank you VERY much for showing me how AWESOME this life is! I've got a LOT to look forward to."
Caitlyn, just stop. If anything, I respect your beliefs and I hope you respect mine. This book is not about our beliefs or hating the characters. If you knew Nico in real life, I hope you would at least be a little humane and not absolutely berate him.
I agree with Hayley. You could have just said that you respect our beliefs and we will respect yours. It's alright to express your opinion, but the way you express it is "the worst way possible." Every time people bring up religions, I always respect their beliefs even if I'm an atheist and I don't believe what they believe in. I always respect opinions and I think you should too even if you are against it.
*sigh* No one understands. And Im sick of trying. Whatever. Goodbye.
What have you been trying to do? If you wanted to try to explain your reasons for thinking it's okay to say hurtful things, or your reasons why they're not hurtful, then you could answer the questions and points addressed to you. Instead all you've done is basically say 'I'm right, your wrong' with no explanation over and over again, despite the reasoning given to you.
I wouldn't berate him or hate him I wouldn't push him. This does not mean I approve of it.
Really I wish Rick hadn't brought it into his books. I know he was trying to support them but why complicate matters so much. At the moment he wrote about it he knew he was going to divide his fans. It would be half and half, those who care and those who don't care about it.
Why couldn't he leave all the arguments to real life and just make the book a normal enjoyable book for all not just some.
Emily Ann wrote: "I wouldn't berate him or hate him I wouldn't push him. This does not mean I approve of it.
Really I wish Rick hadn't brought it into his books. I know he was trying to support them but why comp..."
The same reason why he had ADHD, dyslexia, mixed races and other issues in his books. Because he wants to help children as well as educate them. I don't think it's complicate, it's just the way his books work, and it's the way they always have done.
I guess and I still loved the book but I also think it's more complicated then ADHD or dyslexia. You see I totally support ADHD kids and wish them the best of luck and all that but Gayness is a bit different it kind of goes against some people's beliefs. And some can live with that but some won't or really can't.
Note to people who don't like Nico's reveal that he isn't exactly hetero:
It's not easy being in a minority, but to be frank, if you clearly know your opinion out in public is unpopular, you clearly know that you're going to get criticized when you express it here in this topic. No excuses.
In fact, it doesn't matter if your opinion is in the majority or not, you're going to get criticized all the same by people who disagree with you.
Don't throw a fit if you post your opinion online and find people throwing rebuttals at it. Defend your points instead of saying it's just your opinion. If you really don't want criticism, you shouldn't have put your opinion online in the first place.
Remember, people are attacking your opinion and your points, not you. If they do insult you personally, that's an issue that you should let the Goodreads staff handle.
It's not easy being in a minority, but to be frank, if you clearly know your opinion out in public is unpopular, you clearly know that you're going to get criticized when you express it here in this topic. No excuses.
In fact, it doesn't matter if your opinion is in the majority or not, you're going to get criticized all the same by people who disagree with you.
Don't throw a fit if you post your opinion online and find people throwing rebuttals at it. Defend your points instead of saying it's just your opinion. If you really don't want criticism, you shouldn't have put your opinion online in the first place.
Remember, people are attacking your opinion and your points, not you. If they do insult you personally, that's an issue that you should let the Goodreads staff handle.
well this is such a touchy subject!I have to say that I was not proud of RRs decision to put in a gay character. It definitely made the book less enjoyable for me because I was trying to justify to myself why he would do this. I myself am not a supporter of gay marriage because to put it simply it is just not natural. Only a few decades ago doctors classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, and that was the fact that kept going through my head as Nico's feelings were revealed. (I think everyone can agree that nico is the darkest and most disturbed character in the series, so actually RRs use of nico as the gay character may imply that homosexuality is associated with anger and despair...) Even though it addressed an issue that many kids may contend with today and though it made me feel compassionate toward the character, I cannot feel that RRs decision was appropriate. Now a series that was universally accepted is going to be argued over and labeled "controversial" by some people. I definitely would not let my little sisters read this, whereas before I would consider this series appropriate. I am still wondering why RR ever considered this as an interesting twist to his story when all it did was make me uncomfortable and sad.
Emily, to some people mixed race is against their beliefs, and some think that ADHD and dyslexia doesn't even exist and those children are just stupid. Children get bullied and shamed for those issues the same as they get bullied and shamed for being gay. Homosexuality is a fact of life, people don't have any choice other than to live with it, because like it or not it's here to stay, the same as different races, cultures, and learning difficulties.
Edel, only a few decades ago marriage meant a woman was her husbands property. Was that right? No? How is homosexuality any different?
As for what's natural and what's not - instincts and hormones are a natural part of humans, and that includes their sexuality. Homosexuality has been around as long as heterosexuality, and it occurs in nature all the time. Homophobia however, only occurs in humans. So...who's the unnatural one?
Homosexuality is associate with anger and despair because of homophobia. Black people used to be associated with anger and despair because of racism. When you hate and shame people, they get angry and hurt. It's natural to feel that way when you're being abused.
I'll say this again. Rick Riordan writes to help children who are bullied and shamed and confuse about who they are. He writes to help them understand they're not alone, that they can be accepted and they can do great things like anybody else. If you're the type of person who thinks those children shouldn't be helped, then you're not the target audience of his books. That's why he put it in there, because he cares about the victims, not anybody else.
Edel wrote: "well this is such a touchy subject!I have to say that I was not proud of RRs decision to put in a gay character. It definitely made the book less enjoyable for me because I was trying to justify t..."
You point out just what I was thinking. About the fact that from now on it will be argued over with and fought over. And really I love these books I don't want to fight over stuff in it but I feel compelled to .
Why do you feel compelled to? Why can't you let people live how they want to live? You have your beliefs, and that's fine, but why do you need to try to force them on others?
Sheechiibii wrote: "Why do you feel compelled to? Why can't you let people live how they want to live? You have your beliefs, and that's fine, but why do you need to try to force them on others?"I am not trying to force you to see my point of view. And I do live with it, I live with it because that is the way the world is now. I do not go out into the street and shout abuse at Gay people I don't want to do that. I live with it, But this is my point of view and I have to say it. This is a free discussion and it's about Nico being Gay and I freely gave my opinion as I have a right to do.
Yes of course you can state your opinion like everyone else. But you said you don't want to fight over it. So why come here to tell people your views if you don't want to hear people's responses to it? Why do you feel compelled to fight over it is what I was asking.
I said I didn't want to fight over what he put in the book. I said that because I really don't want to fight about the book, but this isn't only about the book. And Oh I don't know why I feel compelled to. I guess I just wanted to point out my view to see the other side of the argument. I wanted to say how I feel about it.
Well regardless how you feel, can't you see the good in putting something like this in the book? If it makes children feel better about themselves, especially at a time when suicide because of these sorts of issues is at a rise, then isn't it a good thing? Even if it goes against your beliefs, can't you see the good in helping these kids?
I can see the good of it. And if having that in the book saved a person I wouldn't change it. I would be happy if it saves someone. And though I feel shameful at the thought that there are people out there who would go out of the way to hurt those people.
I can't disregard what I believe in.
You may think I am calling the kettle black as I say this.You may think that what i'm doing is bulling but really I am not out to hurt them I am just stating my point of view,my belief, I am sorry if that makes you, or anyone, think me mean.
I definitely didn't expect it, because usually people don't incorporate homosexuality in books that young readers read but it makes so happy Rick Riordan added this. I think this was probably my favorite part in the whole book
Paigetwo *Caitlyn* wrote: "Yea, because I DISAGREE with the MAJORITY I am the WRONG one!"Caityln, I really felt it was important that I respond to this one particular post. I very often have the minority opinion during internet discussions. That's why I think it's extremely wrong of you to project the assumption that we're saying you're wrong to have a different opinion.
One of my guiding values in LIFE is Voltaire's quote "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
This whole thread comes down to "It's not what you say, but how you say it". If you, and all the others sharing that same opinion, had come into this thread and said "I didn't like it because it doesn't line up with my personal values", there's not a single thing I would have said against that. Certainly, I've seen some bullying posts from some pro-gay people in this thread against you, and they're in the wrong for that. What Sheechiibii said is true though. The way you're currently wording your posts is a form of bullying. Trust me on this. I was bullied from 3rd grade to 11th grade. I know what bullying looks like, and you and others are guilty of it.
However, I think, finally, that I can concisely summarize what we've been trying to say.
There's nothing anyone can do if you don't believe homosexuality is moral. There's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to say that you don't agree with it. HOWEVER. You can't go into a public forum and say "I think it's horrible that Riordan included a homosexual character because it's immoral and against God, and he's scarring children who might be reading these books!" (Keep in mind, I'm not saying these are your words exactly. They are a collected summation of the various posts throughout this thread.) That's what many of the rest of us are trying to explain to you. It's how you're saying what you're saying. You're making personal attacks against a group of people. You can't project your values onto others.
Your opinion is not the only one in the world. Your religion is not the only one in the world. Your lifestyle is not the only one in the world. I can respect the fact that you have a different opinion from mine. I don't like that opinion, but I respect your right to have it. All I want is for you to do the same for others. "Do unto others as you would have done for you." If you want others to respect your thoughts and ideas, shouldn't you be willing to do the same?
That's all we're trying to say. Just pick your wording more carefully based on where you're speaking. If you're at home, say whatever you want, but if you're in public, you need to use tact and respect.
You don't have to like that Nico is gay, but you can't berate him or Riordan for it either. You may not want to see a gay character, but even if you keep them out of books, you can't keep them out of life. They're there, in the world. There's no stopping that. Personally, I hate smoking. It's a disgusting habit. On the other hand, I know people that smoke (or used to), and just that one habit alone doesn't make them bad people. It just means I won't be hanging out with them all the time.
The point is, you have to respect the decisions people make for themselves. You also have to respect that there are parts of a person's life they have no control over. Should I hate someone simply because they were born with a different skin color than I was? No. (Not just because it's racist, but because it's not within their control.) Granted, I get the argument that "people CHOOSE to be gay". Personally, I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to condemn you if you do. I don't think I chose to be straight anymore than my BFF chose to be gay.
Let me ask you: if people didn't have sex, would loving someone of the same gender matter? This world is in desperate need of love. At the end of the day, does it really matter who's loving who, as long as there's love?
To be honest, I keep swinging back around to people getting upset about there being homosexuality in a story involving the Greek Gods. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anyone complaining yet about Favonius being gay. Or Apollo. In fact, Dionysus is the patron god of hermaphrodites and transvestites, but I don't see any hate there. So why is it so wrong for Nico? Isn't that a little hypocritical?
I love you so much right now Catherine. You really summed up what so many of us have been trying to explain. :) thanks
Catherine wrote: "Paigetwo *Caitlyn* wrote: "Yea, because I DISAGREE with the MAJORITY I am the WRONG one!"Caityln, I really felt it was important that I respond to this one particular post. I very often have the ..."
You Go Girl!!
Catherine, you are so awesome. You have just explained everything that we were trying to say in a well organized and respectful manner. All in one comment. Thank you so much :D
Catherine wrote: "Paigetwo *Caitlyn* wrote: "Yea, because I DISAGREE with the MAJORITY I am the WRONG one!"Caityln, I really felt it was important that I respond to this one particular post. I very often have the ..."
BRAVO :)
Carrie the awesome wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Not reading the last book because of Nico's little "episode". This is inappropriate, and I will have nothing to do with an author who supports gay rights. This is violating, and hor..."She is stating her opinion. I can't understand how people could even think that homosexuality is ok. It is most definitely not ok. Yes, our world is filled with this, but that does not mean we should except it. I love everyone. I do not hate gays or anyone for that matter, but when I'm around someone who is homosexual I just can't stand it. It drives me crazy. God did not intend us to be that way. Its Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. It is not my intention to offend anyone. I have always held in my feelings on homosexuality, but when i read this book and saw this forum i could not help but say something. Do not say this is negative, because to me I think that all of the posts that do not agree with me are negative. It is just a matter of perspective. You have to expect people to have different opinions so don't go crazy when someone doesn't have the same opinion as you. I believe that Rick is a very great author. I have loved all of his books. It pains me to say that I will not be reading any more of them because of this. His books are very well written and pull you in almost automatically. I have read all of them up to this book. I read all the way until it said Nico was gay, and i haven't read anymore since. I will probably finish it just so i won't be left with half a book, but after that I will not be reading any more books by Rick Riordan.
Joe wrote: "Carrie the awesome wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Not reading the last book because of Nico's little "episode". This is inappropriate, and I will have nothing to do with an author who supports gay rights...."Okay I was totally okay with you going on your stupid rant until the part where you said you're not finishing the book. Greek Mythology isn't all heterosexual either, so if you were that "perspective" on religion, you should have put the very first book down. So man up, and finish the freaking book, at least see Nico's side. Don't assume that just because someone is gay means that they are suddenly not a person or they don't have any more rights or feelings.
And don't even start again on your load of trash "perspective", perspective means you have all the sides and came to your own conclusion. So forget religion for one second, just one, and take a look at this from just a perspective. No religion, no nothing. He is a person. He is not changed. He is not some disgusting unnatural thing.
Joe wrote: "Yes, our world is filled with this, but that does not mean we should except it. I love everyone. I do not hate gays or anyone for that matter, but when I'm around someone who is homosexual I just can't stand it. It drives me crazy."Then you don't really "love" everyone. Love should be unconditional.
It's funny, because you claim you can't be around homosexuals, but you've been around Nico since Titan's Curse, who has been gay/bi this ENTIRE TIME. He didn't suddenly make a choice in this book. They just finally put a label to it in this book. If you liked his character at any point before now, then you liked a homosexual person. DEAL WITH IT.
The thing is, you speak about God not wanting you to tolerate homosexuality. However, he also frowns upon prostitution and marriage-less sex, yet Jesus found it possible to be around Mary Magdalene. If Jesus were to meet a homosexual, at most he'd speak to them quietly alone. Jesus doesn't believe in public condemnation. It's a shame you clearly do.
It's not your place to pass judgement on people. If anyone has that right, it's God, and his job for you is only to show love to others regardless of how you perceive them to sin. That shit is in the Bible. LOOK IT UP.
I'm a practicing Agnostic. Why the hell do I understand God's lessons better than you do?
Joe wrote: "I will probably finish it just so i won't be left with half a book, but after that I will not be reading any more books by Rick Riordan."
You must really feel strongly about homosexuality being wrong if leaving a book half-finished bothers you more than a homosexual character does. Put your money where you mouth is. If you really feel so strongly about the issue, then don't finish the book. Either stand by your values or shut up about them.
Oh Catherine, everything you say is amazing. You have a way with words :) you're so right.
THIS is Rick Riordan's statement about Nico's development. It can be found on his official website, on the FAQ page."Here's my statement concerning Nico in The House of Hades:
One of the most important reasons I became a teacher was to advocate for marginalized children – those who are bullied or misunderstood, those who feel lost and alone. As a middle school student myself, I certainly felt that anguish. As a middle school teacher, it was critical to me that all my students saw my classroom as a safe, supportive environment where they could be honored for who they were and express themselves without fear.
I’ve taken the same approach with my writing. It’s essential to me that young readers find a variety of relatable, positive role models in my books. Every child can be a hero. No child should be shamed or shunned for being different.
Nico’s sexual orientation became clear to me the longer I wrote about his character. It was not something I planned. I had no agenda. But when I realized this was a major part of his life experience and the reason for so many of his difficulties with the other characters, it would have been a disservice to his character, the plot of the books, and all my readers simply to sweep the issue under the rug and pretend it didn’t exist. Turning a blind eye to children’s needs is never an acceptable answer.
I’ve been lucky enough to teach all sorts of students – fifth grade to twelfth grade, rich and poor, from numerous ethnic backgrounds, with diverse religious traditions and a variety of learning differences. I’ve also taught gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students. Some self-identified as early as elementary school. Some came to terms with their sexual orientation later in high school. Most had a hard time during the middle grades, which are tough years for any child. All my middle school students enriched my classroom. They made me a better teacher and a better writer for children, and they all deserve my support.
I am committed to writing appropriate books for the middle grades. This means no bad language, no gratuitous or explicit violence, and no sexual content beyond what you might find in a PG-rated movie – expressions of who likes whom, holding hands, and perhaps the occasional kiss. The idea that we should treat sexual orientation itself as an adults-only topic, however, is absurd. Non-heterosexual children exist. To pretend they do not, to fail to recognize that they have needs for support and validation like any child, would be bad teaching, bad writing, and bad citizenship.
Having said that, a good book, like a good classroom, should raise questions, not insist on a particular set of answers. It certainly should not ignore difficult questions. Whatever a family’s moral and religious beliefs on the topic of sexual orientation, I hope The House of Hades will provide an opportunity for parents to talk to their kids about what they believe, and why they believe it. Most importantly, I hope the story continues to entertain and keeps kids reading!"
Anybody that wants to boycott the series because you can't deal with Rick's choice, good riddance. We don't want you in the fandom anyways ;)
I love how people are like " oh I use to like nico but now that he's gay(or bi), his character is bad" well if you liked him without his "gayness" then how can you just stop liking a person just based on that. that's judging and it's as worst as racism. so what if your best friend was gay? would you ditch them instead of supporting them? how those that make you feel to know that might happen. maybe someone you love won't tell their sexuality to you because they know they'll be hated. keep in mind that your actions cause damage and don't say it's "just my opinion" because people are actually fearing that one day the people they thought they loved might abandon them just because of who they are
The thing is that these people liked Nico's character when he was already gay. He's been gay and they liked him. It doesn't make a difference if he comes out openly.
you would think it shouldn't but *shrugs* some people need time to adjust I guess
It changes nothing about what I feel about Nico. He's still the awesome guy he always was, but this definitely explains a lot of his actions. I always thought Nico was this poor little kid that was sad because his sister died, and he had no one to lean on when he was sad.
I always wondered why he was such a depressed kid. I know that his sister died and stuff but other demigods had people that died that were close to them and they weren't as miserable as he is. I always wondered why, but I just passed it off as his sisters death. His homosexuality cleared up everything. I finally knew why he was so damn depressed. And I still love him. I really do hope that he confesses to Percy just to get it off his chest. I hope Percy turns him down gently. If he does, I feel like Nico wouldn't mind because he would just feel satisfied that he got it off his chest even if he may be a bit heartbroken. Also, I'm scared that he's going to confess to Percy while he's on the brink of death. Authors usually just kill the gay characters because they can't be loved back. I hope Rick doesn't do that. I hope Nico finds someone. I think, out of everyone else in the book, that Nico deserves a happy ending. He really does.
Nicos character was not pg
Well he hasn't been pg since the third book, but you've been reading about him all this time haven't you? And considering he's a child himself...
pg for kids huh... I think there is much more to those types of feelings. (Neco) and I just didn't like it being in the book for kids. I think its a little hurtful for some that want an example of "normal". I hate using that word for no one is normal but I'm not a writer (obviously) I just feel like people disregard the underlining to the real issue. (abuse) (not that that should be in a kids book either but I just think we could have done without it period.) Most people develop a sexual preference, and have made that preference by 3rd grade or earlier. I just hate when people push the real issue under the rug and give it an excuse. Annoying.
But there are kids like Nico in real life, don't you think they'd like reading about someone they feel is 'normal' instead of always reading about people they can't properly relate to?
What is wrong with having a strong character in a book also be gay? What is wrong with showing nico's struggle with his sexuality? You don't think kids can relate to this? I identified as bisexual in 6th grade, guess when I finally came out? This year. I am 20 years old and I barely got the courage to admit to my friends who I am. I don't care what anybody says, this was a great thing that Rick Riordan did. This not only allows kids in similar situations to relate to a very strong character, but it teaches kids to be accepting and not judge others based on their sexuality. It teaches kids that ANYBODY can be a hero, whether you are black, white, Asian, a female, male, or even GAY. EVERY kid has value and your value as a person has NOTHING to do with who you choose to love. These are beautiful messages to teach children.
perhaps but the author is the one that said pg. I don't have a problem with Nico crushing on a guy I have a problem with this be proclaimed as pg. I loved the book and thought it was a nice twist. Not suitable for children at the ages that they are reading this.
In what way is it not suitable for children at the age they are reading it? How is nico's character not pg? Were there sexual implications? No... Nico said he had a crush on Percy... That's it. How is this not pg?
if children are old enough to have crushes (and no, not every child crushes on the opposite sex) then surely they're old enough to read about it? How is it not pg?
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