Ruin and Rising
discussion
Should the Darkling & Alina be endgame?
Also, today I heard there might be a 4th guy in R&R. I'm not taking it well to say the least. And not even for feels or loyalty to my ships, but for practicality.It has taken 2 books for Alina to try and start to sort her feelings. We only have one book left. A 4th guy would just take up space that could be used to explore the relationships with the 3 we know and love ( OK, some more than others.)
Imagine if she ends up with random contestant #4. The outrage!!!!!!
Leigh IS a huge Game of Thrones fan. And lawd knows how those poor ships end up working out..
Oh dear... Don't get me started on GoT. Those HBO fools seem to be the only ones who don't know their source material is good. So they keep adding uneccessary stuff. Uggh.I think there are few ships in GoT. They're mostly alliances, accidents or criminal activity. It's not good.
Alina better not end up with some Fjordan politician for the love of Ravka.
Related and not, I really think everything the Darkling does is "for Ravka." I forget the exact quote but remember how he calls Alina selfish for thinking about her own wants (ie. Running away w/Mal) instead of Ravka? I always think it is such a sad thing yo say. Like he's lived his long life trying to do what's right for a country instead of himself. Why???
Perhaps he feels guilty about what happened with the fold. He doesn't want to destroy it because it can be used as a weapon (which makes sense). But no doubt, he feels guilty that so many (maybe even his own men) got turned into volcra in the process (not his plan), and his country has been torn apart. Why are the countries fighting to begin with? Also, if some of the countries are burning Grisha or picking them apart, how will that be resolved? I mean is the book going to end with Ravka being whole, but Grisha still being treated like shit in other countries? Destroying the fold (or even defeating the Darkling) doesn't resolve that problem.
Alina is so focused on defeating the Darkling that I feel like she's ignoring what the real problems are. Problems the Darkling is trying to fix. Whether his methods are right or not, he's the only person who apparently realizes Ravka needs to change, the wars need to stop, and the king is an idiot. lol
Interestingly though, heretic basically means a person who maintains beliefs CONTRARY to the established teachings of the Church.Think he took the name Black Heretic when he stood up against those who practiced burning/sacrificing Grisha?
WinterRose wrote: "Interestingly though, heretic basically means a person who maintains beliefs CONTRARY to the established teachings of the Church.Think he took the name Black Heretic when he stood up against thos..."
For me, Heretic sounds more pejorative ..
Taking the name of "Heretic" to save the Grisha looks like a Heroic act. If I wanted to stop something, Heretic will be far my last choice as nickname !
Hey! I'm new to this thread and I recently read both books of this series and am now completely in love with them! I have to say that out of the 3 males we have here my favorite has to be the Darkling (he's so interesting how can you not), Nikolai as a close second (lurrrv him), and Mal as third (I like him as a dude, just not the one for Alina).....Now that I got that out, my mind was blown when I read someone here saying that the Apparat can possibly end up being the true villain of the series. I never thought of it that way and now that it's been brought to light I can totally see it as plausible. He was a shady character from the get go and he was even able to fool the Darkling of all people. There's definitely something fishy going on with him and that saint cult that he's created. He is definitely up to something and has his own agenda where Alina is concerned. I never considered him a real threat because he tended to fade into the shadows and keep to himself alot.....but maybe that's exactly how he wanted it. I cannot wait to get my hands on the last book!!!
Hi Suzy! :)Yeah the Apparat is super creepy. I don't know if he's going to be "evil" per say but maybe just..over the top with his beliefs. Like "let's kill all the virgins for the sake of bringing rain!" kind of person, lol. You know what I mean though? Like I think he's going to try to "sacrifice" Alina for the "greater good."
I just got finished reading the new unlock. :D But, the ending of it....explosion!!! Who do you guys think the explosion was from the Darkling, Apparat, someone else?
Caitlyn wrote: "I just got finished reading the new unlock. :D But, the ending of it....explosion!!! Who do you guys think the explosion was from the Darkling, Apparat, someone else?"I think it was one of David's experiments or the other Inferni besides Harshaw. Alina described it as "the first explosion"... like she planned/expected it and several more. Whatever it was, Alina had a tone of familiarity and recognition to call it the first. That's my theory though. Meanwhile, I'm dying to read the upcoming Darklina scene.
Abigayle wrote: "Caitlyn wrote: "I just got finished reading the new unlock. :D But, the ending of it....explosion!!! Who do you guys think the explosion was from the Darkling, Apparat, someone else?"I think it w..."
Me, too. And that is a really good theory. :) Did you kind of sense some tension between Mal and Aline? I did. :) Darklina <3
****MAL AND ALINA UNLOCK SPOILER*****“I need to keep you safe, Alina, to stay focused on what matters. I can’t do that if . . .” He let out a long breath. “You were meant for more than me, and I’ll die fighting to give it to you. But please don’t ask me to pretend it’s easy.”
Yes!! I'm hoping that this scene was released to us to foreshadow endgame of the series! She must have had chosen this scene for some kind of foreshadowing!!
I think that Mal should be just a friend. They've been through crap together, and he gets her, but there is just no chemistry or passion. He's like her older brother. I think a big factor in her leaving with him was her need to both get away and rebel against her situation.Onto the Darkling. He represents her darker side. He presents her with the ability and power to do anything. He introduced her to the whole grisha world. He also was the first person she felt romance towards (not including that muddled stage when she just didn't know HOW she felt about Mal.). I a sense, The Darkling is her security blanket, her getaway, when no one else understands her but him. However, that's not great, and she needs to gain a fuller sense of self and not use a mental crutch like that ,especially when hes such a control freak.
Now Nikolai. OMG Nikolai. He is who I think she should be with. Alina was born to rule, it was obvious several times, even though she was fairly shy and awkward sometimes. Nikolai perfectly offsets that with his bright personality, making up for the fact he is not Grisha. He helps he be a better person, while comforting her and making her laugh. That is the perfect relationship. He is in a position of power (duh) and helps her grow on her own, neither holding her back (Mal, because lets face it, he is a great friend, but in a romantic, partner sense, just dead weight)or pushing her until she breaks (Darkling, for reasons obvious). He loves her just the way she is.
Well, I know that Alina might end up with Nikolai not only because he's the "happy medium" but also because it might make the most sense politically. Nikolai's claim to the throne is "legitimate" (even if he were a bastard, the king himself never acknowledge that) and also because his views for the modernization of Ravka are crucial for the country to face their enemies. Nikolai has proven that Grisha can work with more advanced weapons with good results and he's the one can that bring technology, diplomacy and strategy to the table.
That said, what makes Alina's romantic dilemma interesting is that, to me, none of her guys is perfect. As we have pointed out repeatedly, Mal is not happy about her transformation and hunger for power. He prefers a simple life that is no longer possible with her.
The Darkling has complex plans in which so far she's been merely a weapon. Because she's young and inexperienced, (and because he's used to doing things his way) he patronizes her. He's controlling and demanding. And there's the problem of this "thing" that's between them, an actual connection and a mutual attraction... There are feelings here that both of them try hard to deny.
Last but not least Nikolai. I get that he's charming and funny and witty and everything you want him to be. Isn't that the problem then? How can a guy who's an expert at being what everyone wants him to be, at pretending, be the perfect guy? Nikolai is no innocent butterfly. He's as cunning and manipulative, as the Darkling is. More if you ask me, since he was able to fool the Darkling for quite some time aboard his ship. I think Nikolai also has feelings for Alina and I'm not saying he's awful. But I don't get the why everyone thinks he's a lot nicer than he actually is.
Also, I'm really looking forward to this Thursday's QnA with Leigh about "Shadow and Bone". I'm wondering how that will go. Do you guys have any ideas? Like, will the QnA open at noon or will it open before so that we can post questions and the Leigh logs in at noon and picks questions to answer?
I think Nikolai is very similar to the Darkling. He's just not lived as long. :P I want to trust Nikolai but I just can't. I'm still not sure if he's trusthworthy. (Though ironically I do feel like he's the strongest endgame ship.)"Do you guys have any ideas?"
One time Leigh did a chat room thing, is she doing it that way again? Basically you enter the chat, ask questions, they pop up and she answers. :P I think it was for an hour last time.
She will probably be bombarded with Darkling questions which sadly she can't really answer yet without spoiling the last book. She's kept his true feelings on lock down so I have a feeling we're going to be hit over the head with feels when the book comes out.
We'll this Thursday they'll have the QnA for S&B as part of the official re-read here. It's at noon PST.Hope it's a forum and not a chat, because that way there is more chance for people to ask actual questions about the book. Chats get spammed quickly and questions get buried. Do they even have chats here at goodreads?
I think if people ask plot related questions about the Darkling in S&B she might answer, as long as they're not spoilers for R&R.
I'm trying to remember what my questions were too :/
I can't believe they pushed back the release date for Little Knife. The 1st chapter of R&R was supposed to be released as a bonus!!!
HAVE YOU READ THE DARKLINA UNLOCK GUYS I
“It’s true,” I said softly. “You are stronger, wiser, infinite in experience.” I leaned forward and whispered, my lips brushing the shell of his ear. “But I am an apt pupil.”WHAT IS HAPPENING
After reading the Darklina scene: 'DYING'
I almost had a heart attack! I'm supposed to be sleeping! Seriously this book makes me want to freaking spend the week before my finals reading ! I'm dying I WANT THIS BOOK NOW!
Also now that i've calmed down ... HOLY SHIT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Does this mean the darkling is endgame and omg i can't control my fangirling!
I was dying through the whole thing thinking "IS THIS HAPPENING." That's by far the most emotion we've gotten from the Darkling and most likely that's the FIRST scene he's in. I'mma die if they aren't endgame. There's more chemistry in that excerpt than every Mal/Alina and Nikolai/Alina scene combined.
Their chemistry is ridiculously off the charts. I'm seriously wondering, will she pull that one off? If she kisses him, will it be all calculating and "past tense"? I hope not. I love her being confident and badass but I want her to feel something... and not only for Nikolai.Why do I increasingly feel like I want to punch Nikolai for interferring????
I agree. Why not be badass AND have feelings? lol You should watch Avatar the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra. Possibly my favorite character of all time in there, and one of Leigh's all time favorites. "Why do I increasingly feel like I want to punch Nikolai for interferring????"
Hahaha. Nikolai reminds me a lot of a few other characters I've seen before, combined. I still don't know if I trust him, but I'm growing more and more sure he's going to end up with Alina. Or he's going to pull a Hans and be the biggest villain of all that no one (but us!) saw coming.
There's still the apparat though, who is probably going to be the real villain. And by real I mean the one who has to be stopped because he's just too crazy. I think he's going to try to sacrifice Alina.
I think the "mystery" scene is between Nikolai and Alina. I mean, fair "air time" for all candidates, right? And I will be furious if she's all melted by his return and all kitties and rainbows.I want her to give him hell too. At this point, it should be "fully unleashed" Alina for all. She will probably make him regret not having kissed her when he had the chance. (But Nikolai will totally come out victorious because he's good navigating rough waters.)
She'll probably slap him and then kiss him, haha. She's definitely going to kiss him at some point though. Endgame or not, they're gonna kiss at least once.If the mystery scene is between them, it's going to be super juicy. They already said each teaser is juicier than the one before. Though how can one between Tolya and Tamar be juicy? lol
Idk if they will release a Nikolai teaser though since we're supposed to not know if he's alive. That Darklina teaser has to be at the beginning because 1) they don't release teasers from the end of the book and 2) Alina is still unsure if Nikolai is alive.
Good point about we not knowing if Nikolai is going to be alive. But doesn't the Kirkus review spoil that already?? I hope he reappears at the beginning too.I want you to be right about these teasers being from the first chapters too. That way, anything can happen and things can change so much... For the better hopefully.
Are you going to be around for the QnA tomorrow??I can't decide. I really want to log on but I also want Leigh to answer questions about Shadow and Bone. I'm afraid people will not really be into asking about that and it'll be pointless.
GUYSSS, the question also goes for everyone: Are you coming to the QnA for Shadow and Bone with Leigh tomorrow @ noon PST??There will also be a QnA for S&S in two weeks and a last one for R&R too.
It just kills me that people use QnAs about books to ask random things that are completely unrelated to the plot of said book.I mean, how many chances would you get of trying to get an author to answer q's about her book?
*cries*
Yes I am! I'm going to ask questions as they come to me, haha. Ones that I think relate to S&B and not the whole thing, which is hard. :P Maybe I'll just say "TELL ME EVERYTHING ABOUT THE DARKLING." haha
For some reason I can't access the Grisha re-read group? Has Goodreads been acting up for anyone else?
WinterRose wrote: "For some reason I can't access the Grisha re-read group? Has Goodreads been acting up for anyone else?"Huh. I haven't checked the regroup but I couldn't get onto Goodreads from my laptop or using my phone's data until two minutes ago...
Goodreads has been broken all day. I think the whole Darkling three-page-debate broke it! lol :)I was able to log briefly in the morninga and then not again until now, like 12 hours later.
YAY, Goodreads is up again! Cari, I agree, the debate was hot, LOL))) I just wonder why there aren't more Mal fans in that group. Or are they just less active?I always wonder if Leigh is ever actually reading the debates/threads? Is she laughing at our theories?
HAHA yes we broke it. @ Natalia. From what I've seen, I think the Darkling actually has the most support. (Which is going to be funny and not funny at the same time if Darklina isn't endgame.) I see Darkling and Darklina fanart everywhere.
@Natalia- Here's something that I don't know if you knew.... *drumroll* I AM A MAL FAN!!!! I have so much to say about him. But I want a discussion, and exchange of ideas, not an "IloveMalIloveMal" copy/paste ad infinitum because that bores me.Well, I do wonder if Leigh does look at the discussions.
@WinterRose- The Darkling does have a lot more following, for sure. At the beginning, I wasn't a big fan of his. I thought Mal was my favorite until the end of S&S when people started speculating about human amplifiers and for some reason it horrified me more to think of the Darkling's death than of Mal's. It was such a surprise because I didn't see that one coming at all.
And so, just in case, my two latest thoughts about Mal, just because ;)
1. I always assumed Zoya might be a spy for the Darkling BUT what if Zoya is actually falling for Mal and that's what made her decide to join Alina's camp? It would be the easier way to be near him.
2. Since Mal is not popular, his fancasts always lack one important thing: RIDICULOUS physical attractive!! It is clear from the book that one of Mal's obvious qualities is being very, very handsome. Turning-heads when-he-walks handsome. And this is not because Alina likes him, it is not in her head, but she actually describes how people respond, women catcall to him and even Tamar (who might be gay) can help but comment that if guys were her thing, Mal is really attractive.
So, I think in that department the book is quite clear but we might end up having some boring, plain looking guy to play the part. ;P
macteenbooks added the tag "The Darkling" to the quote "Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough." idk, after seeing the tag I lost all my hopes of seeing Alina with Darkling because this quote doesn't seem to be a good thing :c
Andresa wrote: macteenbooks added the tag "The Darkling" to the quote "Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough." idk, after seeing the tag I lost all my hopes of seeing Alina with Darkling because this quote doesn't seem to be a good thing :c .."
OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! That is absolutely terrible. This breaks my heart. T_T
Thank you for sharing though.
I saw yesterday a couple of quotes that I assume are new. I'll look them up and post them, but they are not dialogue quotes.
Cari wrote: "Andresa wrote: macteenbooks added the tag "The Darkling" to the quote "Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough." idk, after seeing the tag I lost all my hopes of seeing Alina with Darkl..."I know right. I just hope macteenbooks did it because the tag is really popular but I don't think so because not all quotes has "The Darkling" as tag. :c
http://macteenbooks.tumblr.com/post/8...
And this is the second, it has to do with the Darkling and the Fold, I think from Alina's perspective,
https://twitter.com/FierceReads/statu...
SORRY, false alarm. Thanks Elena!!
Cari, I knew you were a Mal&Alina shipper, but I thought that lately you crossed over to the dark side ;)
quotes with the tag "The Darkling": “It’s a vow that if I can’t be anything else to you, at least I can be a weapon in your hand.”
“Maybe love was superstition, a prayer we said to keep the truth of loneliness at bay.”
“Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough.”
“You want a love story too? There’s none to be had.”
"I will strip away all that you know, all that you love, until you have no shelter but me."
the other images, quotes or dialogues has tags like Mal or Alina when are them saying it.
Idk, I'm just hoping they tagged because is a popular tag on tumblr.
Natalia wrote: "Cari, I knew you were a Mal&Alina shipper, but I thought that lately you crossed over to the dark side ;)"Well, doesn't the saying goes "Come to the dark side... we have cookies?" How can one resist?
My love for the Darkling wasn't planned. I woke up one day and there it was. :)
Cari wrote: "This is the first new quote I saw-http://macteenbooks.tumblr.com/post/8...
And this is the second, it has to do with the Darkling and the Fold, I think from Alina's perspective,
https://tw..."
The first is from Shadow and Bone after the stags dies.
The Second also from Shadow and Bone.
Andresa wrote: "quotes with the tag "The Darkling": “It’s a vow that if I can’t be anything else to you, at least I can be a weapon in your hand.”
“Maybe love was superstition, a prayer we said to keep the trut..."
Wait, but are these MacMillan tags or people tags? I mean, are these tags officially put there by the publisher or are they the result of a tumblr general "Darkling" search?
*clings to hope*
I don't want her with Mal not because he doesn't accept who she is or understand her. I just think they don't really love each other. In my opinion, they love each other like brother and sister. they were always together. They are like a shield to each other.
Elena wrote: "Cari wrote: "This is the first new quote I saw-http://macteenbooks.tumblr.com/post/8...
And this is the second, it has to do with the Darkling and the Fold, I think from Alina's perspectiv..."
Thanks for clarifying, Elena!!
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I just fear the worst, really. And at the same time I hope for the best. Because I'll be crushed if any of them die in the end.