Future Survivors, the Apocalypse Group discussion
Dystopian Books
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What is the most overused dystopian cliche?
Nick wrote: "Philip wrote: "Sick would be extreme, but just for debate, Zombies and aliens! I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Guide - if that can be labelled dystopian?"
Never heard of Hitch-hikers..."
I think he means The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Personally I'm sick of seeing love triangles in every Dystopian or the girl who is so naive yet survives every single encounter with barely any a scratch.
Kristin (Blood,Sweat and Books) wrote: "Nick wrote: "Philip wrote: "Sick would be extreme, but just for debate, Zombies and aliens! I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Guide - if that can be labelled dystopian?"
Never heard o..."
Sorry should have put in the link
As for relationships I have tried a few twists in my take on the subject. I also blogged about my dissatisfaction with the genre.
No links to my books or blog as this is not the right place.
I'm really tired of love triangles and the common story pattern. Book 1 fall in love with Guy A and then something happens to Guy A at the end (usually believed to be dead). Book 2 Guy B comes in and then Guy A makes a reappearance near the end. Book 3 everything is complicated.
Romance sells and publishers want to make money it's as simple as that.
Philip wrote: "Sick would be extreme, but just for debate, Zombies and aliens! I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Guide - if that can be labelled dystopian?"
Thank you Phillip! Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is one of my all time favorites - I remember reading the 1st 3 books in the trilogy and anxiously awaiting the 4th & 5th (yes, 5 books in his trilogy!) (drove our librarian crazy!). And watching the BBC TV show - wow, that brought back some fond memories.
I would like some of that zany humor in a dystopian book - I would definitely read that. I hate zombies and HATE vampires, so none of that for me, please. I don't mind some romance, but I do like to see strong female AND male leads. Along the lines of Hunger Games or Divergent. I like stories where something the government did led to our undoing - ala The Stand by Steven King, and many others. I like nuclear disasters and viral plagues.
Philip wrote: "Kristin (Blood,Sweat and Books) wrote: "Nick wrote: "Philip wrote: "Sick would be extreme, but just for debate, Zombies and aliens! I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Guide - if that ca..."
I'll plug you, Phillip: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18... "To The Survivors" has an interesting take on the romantic triangle that I quite enjoyed!
Jane wrote: "Philip wrote: "Kristin (Blood,Sweat and Books) wrote: "Nick wrote: "Philip wrote: "Sick would be extreme, but just for debate, Zombies and aliens! I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Gui..."
Thank you Jane, I'm trying to be good and not linking to my book, if the good folk of good readers are interested they will ask or click my profile. I try to keep my links to my own books in the promotion groups.
Even if I had a brain the size of a planet like Marvin I'm not sure I could come up with something completely new in the sub-genre. Much edgy Sci-Fi is verging on fantasy. More politics might work. The completely alone books have been done. For alternate viewpoints I like Replay as this has dystopian twists albeit in a time travel basis.
I think Horror has been done but I still come back to humour. Have I missed a whole bunch books that do this or are they just not out there?
A great dystopian story with sly humor is Shades of Grey
. Fforde once again builds a world that is a bit "out there". In this society everyone is assigned a class based on the color they are able to see- a rigid caste system based on the spectrum. Can't wait for a promised sequel.
Phair wrote: "A great dystopian story with sly humor is Shades of Grey . Fforde once again builds a world that is a bit "out there". In this society everyone is assigned a ..."Thanks stuck it on the To Read, glad it wasn't the fifty shades....
I'm sick and tired of puppy love and I can't even bring myself to read Divergent or Enclave even though I bought the books.I suggest Jennifer Government for hilarious dystopian. The Windup Girl for serious dystopian and Gone series and Fever Crumb series for mature YA dystopian. I'll also suggest Everlost and The Drowned Cities as near-Dystopian.
Jed wrote: "I'm sick and tired of puppy love and I can't even bring myself to read Divergent or Enclave even though I bought the books.I suggest Jennifer Government for hilarious dystopian. The Windup Girl f..."
Thanks for the suggestion but not sure after reading the reviews, if it really is comparable to Snow Crash then I might give it a go
Jed wrote: "I'm sick and tired of puppy love and I can't even bring myself to read Divergent or Enclave even though I bought the books.I suggest Jennifer Government for hilarious dystopian. The Windup Girl f..."
Thanks, but in the US on Amazon both Jennifer Government and Shades of Grey are unavailable for purchase. Where are you finding them?
I agree about the love triangles, but those can appear in ANY genre, really. I think a majorly overused idea is if the main character is 'destined to save everyone'. Not every person can become a leader, and so not every main character should be able to lead. I.e. Tris from DIVERGENT. I liked how different she was from other heroines.
Nick wrote: "Breanna Lee wrote: "I agree about the love triangles, but those can appear in ANY genre, really. I think a majorly overused idea is if the main character is 'destined to save everyone'. Not every p..."Agreed! I understand that this can make the story more interesting, but personally, I'd rather read about more ordinary people trying to survive.
Jane wrote: "Thanks, but in the US on Amazon both Jennifer Government and Shades of Grey are unavailable for purchase. Where are you finding them?"Try your local public library. Mine has both listed in its online catalog.
Mirkat wrote: "Jane wrote: "Thanks, but in the US on Amazon both Jennifer Government and Shades of Grey are unavailable for purchase. Where are you finding them?"Try your local public library. Mine has both lis..."
Thanks - my library system only has the audiobook of Shades of Grey, but they DO have Jennifer Government. I'll give it a go - sounds funny!
The Legend series has politics, or a government that is controlling and both a female and male leaf who do meet and fall I'm love though they are from opposite sides of society. It is my favorite dystopian read.
Fever Crumb is actually a prequel series for The Hungry City Chronicles, which starts with Mortal Engines. I read the first two of The Hungry City Chronicles and loved it.
The most overused cliché? For me that would have to be the obvious evil cannon-fodder with zero moral ambiguity. Zombies, vampires, orks, evil aliens - anything that you can kill without having the slightest qualm that they might have feelings too, children, parents, friends, families, a life.It's another way of saying that it's okay to kill these guys because they are dead already, clearly evil or beyond saving.
Cartoon bad guys = switch off your brain and compassion and just spray the bullets around because it's fun, innit?
The 16-year-old girl that rises against the government
Jane wrote: "Mirkat wrote: "Jane wrote: "Thanks, but in the US on Amazon both Jennifer Government and Shades of Grey are unavailable for purchase. Where are you finding them?"Try your local public library. Mi..."
Back last fall when this was recommended to me, I electronically requested my library carry the Kindle version of Shades of Grey - and last week I got a notice that it was on hold for me! I look forward to a dystopian novel with some humor - something that's been lacking.
I agree - the cannon-fodder bad guys is very overused. And the 16-year-old girl vs. the government - well, that sells books, because teen girls read & buy a LOT of books!
Is there a list from this post? The comments all seem to not be about the topic. I am interested in the cliches. ThanksI think the ex-military, sniper, combat vet, Navy SEAL, marine, ass-kicking, super solider is way over used.
Jason wrote: "Jane my wife has the kindle , are you able to become members of groups at good reads? She is having no luck she would like to be a member of this group but has not been able to ? Thank you"Yes - you can join Goodreads no matter how you get your reading material. I access this most often through my laptop, although I do have a Kindle Fire which CAN access the internet. Not sure if she can do so on a "regular" Kindle.
Luke wrote: "Is there a list from this post? The comments all seem to not be about the topic. I am interested in the cliches. ThanksI think the ex-military, sniper, combat vet, Navy SEAL, marine, ass-kicking,..."
Yes, Luke - we often get "off-topic". Last year, while discussing clichés, we also mentioned what we WANTED to see more or less of in dystopian fiction.
That's actually awesome :) I was just trying to catch up!
Jane wrote: "in the US on Amazon both Jennifer Government and Shades of Grey are unavailable for purchase. Where are you finding them?"For new try http://www.bookdepository.com/search?...
http://www.bookdepository.com/search?...
Or try searching on http://www.bookfinder.com/ for both used & new books, unless you're specifically after electronic versions of course.
Phair wrote: "A great dystopian story with sly humor is Shades of Grey . Fforde once again builds a world that is a bit "out there"."Totally agree, and for those who like Douglas Adams' The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy & are obsessed with books, I would suggest giving Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next Series a go.
I have it on my Kindle - thanks! I searched my library last fall and when I didn't find it I filled out a suggestion slip, and they purchased it! Will start it in a few days. I LOVE Hitchhiker's Guide, and hope to find that type of humor.
Luke wrote: "Is there a list from this post? The comments all seem to not be about the topic. I am interested in the cliches. ThanksI think the ex-military, sniper, combat vet, Navy SEAL, marine, ass-kicking,..."
I'm torn on that one because I like the type in thrillers - Bourne, Reacher etc, I don't like the inability of so called professional enemies to shoot straight
Another dislike is the secret government department that somehow either A. Survives apocalypse or B. causes it. It places a level of competence on government officials and politicians that most I have seen sadly lack. If the government was that clever or foreseeing why can't they fix pot holes in the road?
Hmmm ... as an ex-civil servant (and not afraid to admit it) I think I have to disagree with that one. Government officials and politicians are just people, like you and me. Especially me ;-)Sure there are so incompetent officials and politicians, just as there are incompetent people in every organisation or profession. But the vast majority are perfectly competent, experienced, hard working.
The idea of Governments in general being incompetent is as much a cliché as the concept of a hyper-efficient Government agency which somehow survives an apocalypse (and possibly causes it). Or for that matter of a hardened ex-Navy seal who can't miss anything he aims at while all the bad guys around him can't hit a thing. Unless it's a shoulder wound or a graze which can be manfully shrugged off.
The problem for Governments is that the opposition politicians and the media take great delight in picking up on any incident which hints at incompetence. No opposition politician ever got voted in by saying that the current Government is doing a great job. So any mistake is magnified. In many cases what the press and media pick up are perfectly reasonable actions by Governments which they either deliberately or accidentally misunderstand and misconstrue.
Governments can't fix pot-holes? Of course they can and do. The roads would be in a much worse state if they stopped the maintenance that they are carrying out all the time. The problem is that the standard of our roads are deteriorating more rapidly than normal because of climate change, heavier vehicles and increased numbers of vehicles.
To keep pace with this rapid deterioration we need to spend more money on road maintenance, which in turn means raising more taxes. But it is very hard to convince the public that we need to raise taxes when we are still in a recession and everyone is convinced about the cliché of "Government incompetence".
Philip wrote: "I'm torn on that one because I like the type in thrillers - Bourne, Reacher etc, I don't like the inability of so called professional enemies to shoot straight..."Oh I agree. Bourne, etc. have been done well and are somewhat unique. I am talking about the two dimensional cardboard cutout characters.
Will wrote: "Hmmm ... as an ex-civil servant (and not afraid to admit it) I think I have to disagree with that one. Government officials and politicians are just people, like you and me. Especially me ;-)Sure..."
Hi Will, not disagreeing I was more on the lines of Government conspiracies as the amount of leaking that goes on means a conspiracy is very hard to keep under cover. Governments around the world have of course tried to hide some of their misdeeds but it just proves that conspiracies in the sense of the theme of this group are hard to keep under wraps. Build a secret government facility and lots of people know from the finance department through to HR to recruit the staff to the builders architects and utility companies.
In my experience lots of people know about such things even if they don't know exactly what a small lab in a big building is doing. I always thought with the James Bond Villain hide outs there were hundreds of guards all of whom had families and friends who might have noticed their other half was away working on the odd island.
Still there are enough real conspiracies to go on - MI5 with labour Government in the 1970s and counter IRA activity. In both cases the dystopia link is trying to change politics with actions of security services working in secret. Neither could be seen as successful in changing anything. Maybe a better political example would be the changes in the communist party which created the Soviet Union after the Russian revolution; where Stalin's actions removed his co-conspirators which created the dystopia of the new Russia. Seen for the perspective of a white-Russian in 1912 this would be an apocalyptic future dystopia
I'm off subject of future survivors in future apocalypses. So how about considering the impact of nano technology and stem cell research on future humans and political systems. Can a future ever be utopian rather than dystopian?
Now that I can agree with! It is very hard to keep a large conspiracy secret. Small ones - eg Bletchley Park - maybe. The UK Government networks of fallout shelters, possibly. What exactly goes on at Area 51? But larger conspiracies including the Apollo programme? No, no, no.
Nano technology and stem cell research are interesting because they hint at a possible utopia/ dystopia that we may be heading for. As medicines, improve we are living longer - that much is evident. What happens when the world is full of millions of 200 year olds? Do all the young uns find that the only work they can get is as doctors/ nurses and social care workers? And that they can't afford to buy a house because the old folk aren't dying off to release their houses back into the market.
In 1900 the average life expectancy for a man was in his fifties. He probably didn't get much time to enjoy his retirement. Now the average life expectancy for a man is in his 80s. Some are saying that the first person to live to be 200 may have already been born.
And now the £64,000 question. Will that lead us to utopia or dystopia?
Will,This is exactly the backdrop that is driving much modern sci-fi. I am trying to see how we get to the utopia without a significant event to force change. Global warming will have an impact but forget industrial CO2 emissions the cause of those emissions is population growth, worldwide causing demand for products and resources. Add to growth better healthcare which extends life and you have a double whammy. Previous growth led to exploration to the Americas from Europe and then to Australasia. Earth's population is rapidly on the way to seven billion without the impact of better healthcare. Curing disease is a very noble act but there is a knock on effect.
I think there will be a worldwide food and water crisis at some stage unless food production and water preparation can be increased significantly. Of course that would mean a better survival rate thus increasing the problem. For exploration we either populate the current uninhabited areas or find more space - Mars anyone?
All those actions require energy and fuel so until we have fusion power or get over our hangups over nuclear we will continue to generate more carbon. As for renewable ever tried a dull overcast day with no wind! Unless we can store the renewable energy we will always be limited that means batteries or pumping water to use as hydro electric at night/dull/windless. Tidal barrage is a possibility near coasts but fusion holds the key.
Good stuff! Some quick thoughts ...I'm not sure that emigration to Mars (or anywhere else) is really going to be the solution. As you say, we're currently at 7 billion population. This number is increasing by an extra billion every 12 years or so. If we assume that the growth stays the same and we want to keep earth's population static, then we would need to ship one billion people to Mars every 12 years.
That's 83 million people every year. Or 233,000 people every day.
Let's say that our spaceships can each carry as many passengers as an Airbus A380 - that's 853 people in an "all economy" configuration (and also coincidentally twice the number of passengers that Star Trek's Enterprise could carry, but let's be optimistic).
Let's also be really generous and say that the trip takes just 48 hours, including loading and reloading the passengers at either end. That is definitely into NC1701 levels of speed and probably needing transporter technology to get folks through the transit lounges.
We would need a fleet of 550 of these spaceships operating 24/7.
If that wasn't bad enough, Mars would be filling up at a rate of 1 billion people every 12 years - for the first few years, but then accelerating to up to 2 billion every 12 years thereafter (their own 1 billion growth plus the 1 billion shipped over from earth).
If we started this programme tomorrow and assume that Mars was instantly colonisable, then within about 60 years Mars would be as full as the earth is now.
Oops.
A more likely scenario is that we are either going to have to learn how to live with hyper-population and/or start talking about euthanasia/ population control - eg the Logan Run idea of death at the age of 30 and/ or the Chinese one-child per family policy.
The future may well be one of minimalism. Fewer possessions, less energy consumption per person, smaller homes, less travelling, Hong Kong style city living.
The population of the earth will have to learn how to glide in everything that we do.
How about 2 children per family, replacing both parents only. I love your theories and stats. i won't be around to see what happens but love to read science fiction and post apocalyptic and dystopian stories about what may.
Great stats Will - just shows the scope of the problem.Donna the two children rule would stop the expansion caused by population growth but not the lack of dying off from disease/old age.
If we want well off healthy people then the need for food and other resources will continue to grow.
Lots of material here for the apocalypse and dystopian writer. I'd better get to it....
The elephant in the room is the question of whether human rights take precedence over what we need for survival. Limiting the number of children per family would be a pragmatic step, but what do we do about those with religious beliefs which don't allow contraception?What would we do if someone became accidentally pregnant, having already reached their quota of children? Force them to have an abortion or be sterilised?
What happens if you remarry? Can you have more kids or have you used up your quota?
How do we get every country in the world to adopt the same rules?
In a democracy, how would a political party or leader ever get elected on a manifesto based on not allowing people to have kids?
And the really difficult question - would we ever be brave enough (or desperate enough) to withhold medicine from the elderly or (whisper it quietly) bump them off when we couldn't afford to support them? In the UK, the body which authorises medicines (N.I.C.E.) is deciding whether to allow medicines to be used depending on how much they cost and how much extra life they give you. In other words, medicine is already being rationed.
We don't need to stray too far into the future to find genuinely difficult questions about utopia/ dystopia.
We're not allowed to advertise our own writing here, but yes I am working on that too!
These questions are so very valid and these policies probably are already necessary if we are to live together on this planet for a long time to come. But you are right, Will, no politician today could win an election with them. So will we have to have a dictator to save us? Fortunately I will never know in my lifetime, but I shudder to think of what is coming for my grandchildren.
By the way, Philip and Will, I would love to know what books you both are writing. Or a link to find them. I see you both live in the UK. I am in the US, California, so I hope your books are available on Amazon. Or at my library.
Donna wrote: "By the way, Philip and Will, I would love to know what books you both are writing. Or a link to find them. I see you both live in the UK. I am in the US, California, so I hope your books are availa..."Hi Donna, avoiding promotion links in this thread but please check out mine or Will's profile and you can find them there.
On topic, the future population issues have formed part of the backdrop i.e. the history to a sci-fi world I am creating. Whereas my previous effort was near or current based.
I think the ideas around population and global warming that I have seen played out before give nice links to methods of dealing with the issues so here are some book links - not saying they are brilliant reads - that's too subjective but the ideas of population control...
You can live in Utopia until you are thirty....
The Soylent Green film loosely from the book
I'm sure there are lots of suggestions. One of my complaints about Zombie films books is that the zombies would die out with no people to eat/transform. Likewise a virus... my own take... creates famine until the balance is restored although lack of food distribution would make matters worse. A few years ago in the UK we had a fuel tanker driver's strike and within a few days shops were running out.
Just in time distribution techniques become never at any time if there are no drivers or fuel to get them to the distribution points to drive the trucks.
Three meals from barbarianism if I have the Plato/Marx/Red Dwarf quote right
Donna - Philip read my mind. To avoid promoting my own work I've scribbled a quick blog post on my profile to show you what I'm working on.Philip - you are spot on about the effect of just in time logistics. A large food store typically has very little storage space. Every scrap of floor space is given over to selling. To keep the shelves stocked they need to have several lorries arriving each and every day constantly refilling the shelves. The staff take the food directly from the lorry and put it on the shelf.
This all works because the check-out computer is constantly keeping a track of what is being sold and therefore what needs to be restocked.
That's all fine and dandy while everything is working. But add just one problem and it can all fall apart. No electricity = no computers = no information about what to restock. Worse still, a bad snowfall or no fuel and there would be no lorries and therefore no food.
Add in the extra demand if we all start panic-buying and we could go from civilization to near anarchy in a matter of days.
You don't even need the electricity or lorries to have a problem. All of our utilities, shops and transport relies on the fact that we don't all try to use it at once. If we all wanted to buy bread or fuel at the same time, the stocks would run out within hours.
Over Christmas, my part of the UK had severe power outages caused by this winter's floods. It was amazing how much we rely on electricity and how quickly things became difficult when it wasn't there.
From someone who lives where the roads are often snowed in - learn to bake bread, it's not hard! And if the power goes out, clear off the grill outside or break out the camp stove. We can get along without starving or running to the store for a few days!Oh - except for beer. I guess if someone runs out of beer they may panic if they can't get to a store LOL!
Jane, good on ya! But don't use your camp stove inside! Very dangerous! Beer, yes, stock up!
Jane - if it was just me, my wife and the BBITW (best boy in the world), then we would have been absolutely fine with no lecky. We would have snuggled down under duvets, played scrabble by candlelight and barbecued something from the increasingly defrosting freezer. It would have been fun, in a macho walking-dead-without the zombies sort of way.The problem was that we had our 88 year old mother in law with us, and when old folk get seriously cold they don't warm up in a hurry. You start to get worried when you ask Grandma if she is feeling cold and she tells you that she isn't sure.
We bake bread all the time, but it's a little hard to do it with no electricity, no gas and no open fire.
That's why Christmas dinner last year was oreos and fig biscuits in the car as we drove 130 miles to the mother-in-law's house with a car full of Christmas (turkey, wine, presents, cranberry sauce, brussell sprouts...)
Besides, I live in Surrey where the nearest thing we get to survival is dodging the potholes in our 4x4s and worrying if Waitrose has run out of focaccia.
Yes, in an apocalypse the old and very young will not survive. I read these books and wonder how I would ever walk that far or fight that hard or do without my nice comfy bed :)
And just posted a reply (of sorts) on my Goodreads blog...
Phair wrote: "A great dystopian story with sly humor is Shades of Grey . Fforde once again builds a world that is a bit "out there". In this society everyone..."Thank you Phair, and all others who suggested
. LOVED it! Wish he would write his planned sequels. It had the post-apocalyptic/dystopian angle, AND it was funny!
Future Survivors, the Apocalypse Group
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (other topics)The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (other topics)
Jennifer Government (other topics)
Logan's Run (other topics)
Replay (other topics)
More...
I would love more humour like Hitch-hikers Guide - if that can be labelled dystopian?